Make rogues more useful in PVE

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  • galahad01
    galahad01 Member Posts: 116 Arc User
    Hello All,

    Never understood why Devs do this to rogue types, I can make this an easy comment, If you give rogues as a class, then others who are not Don't get to run through traps. I would like to see anyone put their finger in a " Real " basic rat trap and see what happens. Devs you take the time to put the traps in the game so if there is not a rogue then people don't get to run through traps without a major issue in health or DEATH!!!!!! Give XP for Disabling them as well.

    Cheers,
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    " May The Wind be Always At Your Back "
  • rjc9000
    rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,398 Arc User
    a
    galahad01 said:

    Hello All,

    Never understood why Devs do this to rogue types, I can make this an easy comment, If you give rogues as a class, then others who are not Don't get to run through traps. I would like to see anyone put their finger in a " Real " basic rat trap and see what happens. Devs you take the time to put the traps in the game so if there is not a rogue then people don't get to run through traps without a major issue in health or DEATH!!!!!! Give XP for Disabling them as well.

    Cheers,

    It used to be like this where Traps give injuries (and still do).

    The problem is, that VIP gives immunity to injuries, which makes traps irrelevant unless they deal loads of damage.

  • ravenskya
    ravenskya Member Posts: 1,891 Arc User
    Put some random instant death traps out there that only rogues can see and disarm - and suddenly people will find taking us along a lot more lucrative
    Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold"
    Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
    Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP

  • rjc9000
    rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,398 Arc User
    ravenskya said:

    Put some random instant death traps out there that only rogues can see and disarm - and suddenly people will find taking us along a lot more lucrative

    Eventually through trial and error, people will be able to figure out where the traps are and avoid them.

    If you suggest blocking dungeon progress via traps, you'll have to carefully balance this.

    If it literally becomes impossible to progress without disarming the traps (ex: invisible wall that only disappears when the traps are disarmed), then you're going to discourage teams from bringing other classes (which is a poor idea for balancing purposes). If the trap path is one of few alternate branching paths, then I could see this being okay.

  • ravenskya
    ravenskya Member Posts: 1,891 Arc User
    Also they should make disarming a trap while in combat a thing - and then chuck traps around on the floors where we fight. I remember the first time we encountered traps in a combat area - I rolled over to disarm them to help the team (pre-VIP) only to discover that I couldn't disarm them while in combat... it was infuriating
    Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold"
    Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
    Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP

  • mebengalsfan#9264
    mebengalsfan#9264 Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    ravenskya said:

    What I have been trying to figure out is:
    If you have a TR, SW, CW and HR all at the same item level, all playing with mid level skill - do they come out roughly equal in damage.

    You really can't compare any of the other DPS classes to the GWF because GWFs are clearly not equal in the ease it takes to make/play a good one. (Not that there aren't GREAT ones out there - I run with one).

    It feels like a poor player can do tolerable damage on a GWF - where as the other classes take skill to achieve the same level, and the TR perhaps takes the most skill of all. It's possible that the SW or CW requires equal since mine are not to 70 yet, but from the classes I play - the TR takes the best timing, knowledge, build and gear to do a tolerable job in a dungeon.

    I don't know the TR or HR feats at all. But for a CW, even if you go a full on buffer, there are feats within the buffer build that you can pick to increase the character base damage.

    Playing as a full buffing Renegade on my CW, my damage is about equal to or slightly higher than the build you are playing on your TR with equal gear, enchantment, companions with bonding, etc... I state higher as CW will do more damage with more adds and will drop quite a bit on bosses without many or any adds.

    HR, I think this class is the closest to a GWF in damage potential going either Trapper or Melee.

    I honestly see GWF getting an adjustment when DC gets there update. I can see the GWF maybe even getting a new class name as it is not a Fighter class from what I can tell. It falls more into the Berserker/Barbarian classes and hopefully gets fixed to match up more to those classes than a Fighter. If not, they need to allow GWF to wear the heavier armor and actually tank like a GF or OP.

  • pitshade
    pitshade Member Posts: 5,419 Arc User
    Strongly disagreeing with all the trap nonsense. TR is a striker class, not an locksmith. Encourage parties to take TR characters because they hold their own on a fight without having to have a higher amount of players skill than other DPS characters. All this trap nonsense will do is encourage people to find some way to cheese through it or else strongly resent TR for having a guaranteed party slot without adding anything meaningful to the actual comabt.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • thornbr1nger
    thornbr1nger Member Posts: 65 Arc User
    Give TR an aoe at-will. Problem solved.
  • ravenskya
    ravenskya Member Posts: 1,891 Arc User
    I've seen (and run with) MI's that do massive damage. I've never seen a WK be able to pull off that kind of damage. I play a WK - I would like to see the WK get a little love so that we can match the MI, but do it through range/DOTs.
    Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold"
    Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
    Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP

  • kinganuthin
    kinganuthin Member Posts: 82 Arc User

    Give TR an aoe at-will. Problem solved.

    I like this. Make Sly Flourish Aoe, and move the broken armor to Gloaming cut.
    Switch back and forth between mob and boss fights.
  • ghoulz66
    ghoulz66 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,748 Arc User
    TR has enough AoE powers. They're just not very good. Many are weak for the new meta and others have long CDs.

    Flurry is only high end with the lurkers perma crit gimmick, which is simply stupid.

    Blitz doesn't do much damage, cone is small.

    Path of the Blade is a steaming pile of goat &$#%.


    GWF simply hold down an at-will. DCs can spam AoEs non-stop long enough to wipe out mobs. CWs lock down mobs and quickly melt them without confrontation. HRs are pretty AoE spammy.

    Hell even a SW has options to clear pack to pack without problems. Even my justice OP has few issues with mob clearing. If the DC damage buffs go through my DC will make my TR even more bad than it already is, which it already makes it look bad.

    TR encounters and CDs aren't very optimal now. TR feels way too methodical atm. It doesn't need to be so complex. You try playing it like any other class and you're in for a rude awakening.
  • rayrdan
    rayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    i play a tr and hr.
    when i make a party i definitely happy if i dont see TRs.....
    enough said
  • mebengalsfan#9264
    mebengalsfan#9264 Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    edited March 2017
    rjc9000 said:

    ravenskya said:

    Put some random instant death traps out there that only rogues can see and disarm - and suddenly people will find taking us along a lot more lucrative

    Eventually through trial and error, people will be able to figure out where the traps are and avoid them.

    If you suggest blocking dungeon progress via traps, you'll have to carefully balance this.

    If it literally becomes impossible to progress without disarming the traps (ex: invisible wall that only disappears when the traps are disarmed), then you're going to discourage teams from bringing other classes (which is a poor idea for balancing purposes). If the trap path is one of few alternate branching paths, then I could see this being okay.
    Better idea...

    During boss fight, traps randomly show up in random spots that only a rogue can see and disarm. Traps are a 1 shot for the player.

    Now, who wouldn't want to take a rogue along in their party?

    I remember when I first started this game in July that I heard how healers and tanks were not needed in this game other than for CN. Now all I see are call out for tanks and healers.

  • spideymt
    spideymt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 710 Arc User
    tom#6998 said:

    The solution to class balancing is not to include some stupid traps which force u to take trs with u but to rebelance them.

    Well...i dont like to do that, but i have to agree. tom is right about that. Including traps that only Trs can disarm is a very bad idea.
    I know some really good TRs, but i still think our knife buddies need some rebalance and a little push

  • talon1970
    talon1970 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 152 Arc User
    I also think, that these Trap Idea is not a good thing.
    It would be a problem for public Groups to get an Tr (maybe with an look to the future, that all the missing Dungeons requires an 3k+ ilvl) in.
    And for private settings it could be easily bypassed, if someone is leaving, they get an Tr for disabeling an Trap, the Tr could go then and the former Party member rejoines.
    And i am really not in the mood, to join every few minutes an Party only to disable something and then i should leave again.


    But what my (biased) personal thoughts the last few days was:

    On the paper the Tr is an more melee/close combat fighter, why not bring in an Heroic feat that allows us: "To deal x%,x%,x% more damage while in close combat - half (or 1/4) against players." (bc of PvP)
    That could be "easily" replaced for something unuseful like Battlewise (Can't think that anybody is using this feat.), so we should benefit more for our (on the paper) higher risk playstyle, these dance on an razorblade, dealing dps and doing one mistake and you are dead, that playstyle that i felt in love from the very beginning playing this class.
  • ravenskya
    ravenskya Member Posts: 1,891 Arc User
    My thought on the traps is to either make them have a point - or give us a replacement skill. I personally would prefer a replacement skill or the ability to use "Trap" as unlock - open doors or chests without a key. Allow us a chance to open dungeon chests without consuming the key. Allow us to open it for the whole group without consuming the key. That way we aren't NEEDED but we are beneficial in that respect. That's what we did in DnD. We were there to find/remove traps, pick locks, scout ahead quietly and backstab/cripple the boss.
    Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold"
    Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
    Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP

  • pitshade
    pitshade Member Posts: 5,419 Arc User
    TRs don't need a replacement for the ability to disarm traps unless the other classes get a functional use in a dungeon for Arcana, Religion, etc...

    talon1970 brings up the crux of the issue above. TR got hit with nerfs starting in mid Beta and continuing through Mod 3. In Mod 5, they tried to fix the class by adding conditional buffs that would be less effective in PVP but ultimately have made the class slow to damage and more complicated than people can handle. Ultimately, the solution is what people have been asking for since before the nerfs started... MAKE DAMAGE VALUES DIFFERENT IN PVE AND PVP. Tenacity was a half hearted effort to do that but ot seems to have created more issues than it solved. Now the devs have announced that TR is the next class to be looked at. It is time for Cryptic to finally pull the rotten tooth and put in place a system where damage values are different for PVE and PVP. They have done that with control effects. It is time for them to fix the mistake from the development of the game and finish this nonsense.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • nickjdowe
    nickjdowe Member Posts: 158 Arc User
    Since when do TRs need help in PvE? Unfortunately much like the GWF and other classes the TR has one PvE build path that's superior to all by a large margin. MI Executioner focusing on buffs while in stealth. I'm a GWF 3.8k and my TR buddy is neck and neck with me in almost all dungeons. He actually beats me on trash mobs and I come back on single target. Before he messed with his build and the changes to CS it was actually the other way around. Are we talking about BiS DPS?
  • ravenskya
    ravenskya Member Posts: 1,891 Arc User
    Me personally? I'm talking about making it so that you can have a viable PVE build by going either MI or WK - there are only two functional builds right now, either MI Exec or MI permastealth. As a WK - there is no way to do the damage the others do, certainly you can maximize what is available, but you just can't compete with 25% increase in damage that a MI gets. I would like to see the WK buffed in their upcoming TR rebalance. I don't think the MI needs to be nerfed in any way - the good MI's I know can keep up with the other classes if they know their build and rotations - but the WK's could use a lot of love.
    Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold"
    Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
    Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP

  • aaramis75
    aaramis75 Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    I really like the AoE at-will idea. That's where TRs are seriously lacking.
  • wileecoyoteym
    wileecoyoteym Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    AoE atwill please and replace blitz with hidden daggers (GWF encounter) that's all i ask for.
  • galahad01
    galahad01 Member Posts: 116 Arc User
    Hello Everyone,

    For those who believe that rogues are a Striker class, fair enough but on the other side of that coin. If there are traps put into the content by the Devs then why shouldn't they be disabled by a rogue if there is one in the party?

    Should they be a blockade in the content? No. However if there happens to be a group that has no rogue, then why shouldn't the " TRAP!!!!!! " be a trap. Have it that it is not impossible ( I don't mean, super easy to get by ), but if you have the unfortunate mishap to get caught in one then it should really slow you ( Group ) down, and/or make it something to contend with during a fight if you get caught in one. And Yes...on that rare/random occasion it should cause death, it's a trap made to protect something and/or slow one down.

    If the Devs didn't intend on following those little guidelines for traps, then why have them in at all? And there should be no special account privileges given to avoid traps, the Uber players have enough things that make the game easy for them, if anything they should induce Uber player challenges.

    These players want to be Uber then show that you deserve the title and know how to keep it.

    Cheers All
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    " May The Wind be Always At Your Back "
  • pitshade
    pitshade Member Posts: 5,419 Arc User
    As far as I can tell, no new (not recycled) content has been added since Beta that features traps. Some of the Elemental Evil lairs have traps, but they are recycled. Otherwise... mostly nothing. So it seems plain that all of the content developed since the shift to an MMO has pretty much been trap free. So any claims regarding dev intent must go the other way. They are a non issue in the game.

    TR do not need aome kind of special position in groups. They are not a support class, they are DPS. Specced and played properly, they can do great damage. However the learning curve is too high and the classes' reputation has suffered for it. That is the issue, not trying to find a way to bribe or extort parties into picking a TR.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • wileecoyoteym
    wileecoyoteym Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    Make a stealth feature for atwill and maybe with daily powers? not just encounters. Look at the HR for instance. They have a different power when they switch stance for their atwills
  • americatime#7747
    americatime#7747 Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    I don't think buffing tr aoe damage is a good idea. As it is right now TRS when we'll played are just as good at dps and control as cws or gwf. Buffing TR damage would mean that TRS will be BIS in dps at the hands of a skilled Tr, and I've seen quite a number of them in my alliance. I don't think the answer is making tr mechanics easier is a solution as well, since tr as a class is ridiculously fun as it is. This is probably a L2P issue for most TRS who have low dps output, but just like the gwf they would benefit a lot from build diversity by adding a buff debuff/hybrid dps path so people want them in a party outside of their dps potential
  • blur#5900
    blur#5900 Member Posts: 490 Arc User

    I don't think buffing tr aoe damage is a good idea. As it is right now TRS when we'll played are just as good at dps and control as cws or gwf. Buffing TR damage would mean that TRS will be BIS in dps at the hands of a skilled Tr, and I've seen quite a number of them in my alliance. I don't think the answer is making tr mechanics easier is a solution as well, since tr as a class is ridiculously fun as it is. This is probably a L2P issue for most TRS who have low dps output, but just like the gwf they would benefit a lot from build diversity by adding a buff debuff/hybrid dps path so people want them in a party outside of their dps potential

    Its not about the few who perform well, its about average tr players who are behind average players of other dps classes.
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  • americatime#7747
    americatime#7747 Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited March 2017
    null

    I think both have to be considered. It's why I mentioned that making tr mechanics easier to apply would negatively affect the challenge/fun of the TR class. I've seen a lot of different types of players from pugging and there are people who underperformed for every class, especially TRS and HRs. Buffing TR damage wouldn't be a solution imo because then it becomes a clear bis option for dps. Rather making one tree for TRS where the mechanics are easier plus provides dps and buff debuff would improve the viability of trs as a desired class for parties.