Right now there are only two builds that allow you to be one of those TR's who can equal the damage of the other DPS classes - and that's the MI Exec or the MI perma stealth. WK needs an overhaul to make the damage as viable as the MI.
Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold" Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
Yes - but the non-meta builds are still functional on the other classes.
Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold" Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Insane, the DC buffs are going to have my DC clearing river district 3 times as fast as my TR. Man I wish TR had some AoEs like that.
TR doesnt need some super damaging AoE. Only thing AoE should serve as is for controling enemy movement. If you want AoE go play a class that does it the best. It is sickening enough that every class has same weapon and armor set bonuses. Almost all have the same BiS equipment and now you desire every class to be AoE maniac. All TR needs is a little atwill damage boost and a little less complicated way of procing some feats thats all. No AoE. I play the TR for 4 years and it has an enormous learning curve but i tried and i learned and now you people come here asking for some AoE Hamster just so you can bask in the ego glory of looking at your name in the paingiver chart. If you want to play a TR than learn how to. If you think it takes too much of your precious time than switch to a class that takes less time. Bottom line is that you need to stop asking the same thing for every class couse you think you are a good player and you deserve to be top DPS. If DEVs start listening to lazzy people like you soon DCs are going to solo FBI in under 10 min. Get real and use you energy and time in asking for better content and reward systems instead of trying to trivialize every class.
Why would the devs have to do sth to make rogues better in pve ? Its all up to your build. Ive run dungeons on my near bis 4k pally with different rogues. Last night I did double the dps of a 4k rogue in epic spider, another time a rogue did 3 times my dps in CN. So ya, its all up to your build.
It's more down to the complicated feat combinations, I think they need more of a 'streamlining' than a straight buff. They've not had a proper look at the TR for a long time and I'd say it's due some love.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Why would the devs have to do sth to make rogues better in pve ? Its all up to your build. Ive run dungeons on my near bis 4k pally with different rogues. Last night I did double the dps of a 4k rogue in epic spider, another time a rogue did 3 times my dps in CN. So ya, its all up to your build.
With all the respect to OP damage, it has still ways to go before we can compare it to 'dps' classes. By this spirit we can next compare TRs renegade MoF, or better idea to pets, and say "ohh they did 10 times the pets damage, they are OK". Lets compare apples to apples, or at least fruits to fruits.
Right now there are only two builds that allow you to be one of those TR's who can equal the damage of the other DPS classes - and that's the MI Exec or the MI perma stealth. WK needs an overhaul to make the damage as viable as the MI.
Not sure what you mean by perma-stealth, but those are more or less extinct from what I see (doesn't mean I see everything though). Gloaming Cut is bugged (beneficially) and still I never saw someone using it getting comparable dps. And mange to suffer that noise.
TR doesnt need some super damaging AoE. Only thing AoE should serve as is for controling enemy movement. If you want AoE go play a class that does it the best. It is sickening enough that every class has same weapon and armor set bonuses. Almost all have the same BiS equipment and now you desire every class to be AoE maniac. All TR needs is a little atwill damage boost and a little less complicated way of procing some feats thats all. No AoE. I play the TR for 4 years and it has an enormous learning curve but i tried and i learned and now you people come here asking for some AoE Hamster just so you can bask in the ego glory of looking at your name in the paingiver chart. If you want to play a TR than learn how to. If you think it takes too much of your precious time than switch to a class that takes less time. Bottom line is that you need to stop asking the same thing for every class couse you think you are a good player and you deserve to be top DPS. If DEVs start listening to lazzy people like you soon DCs are going to solo FBI in under 10 min. Get real and use you energy and time in asking for better content and reward systems instead of trying to trivialize every class.
While the first is a good point. Why there is a need to call people lazy.. etc.. Someone made a suggestion, you don't agree.. No need to take it low.
Then I am very surprised at your previous comment. How far did you take your TR? How well did you do in T2 content? Why did you stop playing it and roll a GWF? What we are talking about is running a TR well, not just having a TR.
The class can (as we've both said) compete well in high level content but the number of players that do badly at it compared to other classes is both significant and so obvious that many groups actually refuse to take TRs. (I remember one occasion where a GWF suggested we 'ditch the TR and get a proper DPS').
If the situation was as you suggested - a simple matter of pressing buttons and everyone does the same output then this discussion wouldn't even exist, let alone the bias shown by other players in-game.
You've said that high level TR's in your guild put out significant dps and yet I'd be very surprised if you hadn't also noticed that most do not keep up. You've blamed this on players being 'bad' but unless we have a situation where 'bad' players only roll TRs then that comment just doesn't make any sense.
Surely you must appreciate that something else is at work other than "only nooobs play Rogues..." and I'm sure many of the better TR players here will confirm my statement that it is down to understanding the right timing of a multitude of factors. Having the 'right' build is not enough by itself. We are not talking about GWF's who simply get their destroyer stacks up, rotate through encounters and find themselves at the top of the chart.
This whole wall of text only because i said " You dont need to be a rocket scientist to play a TR" and " its the player in front of the monitor"? Sry...but i think you are over reacting a little bit.
You do realize the dungeon is 0-sum. It doesn't matter if it was a TR there, or a second DC, a GF or anything else. It will be an issue of time, and not, not getting through, as long as the player is capable enough with the dodges. So can't see the point of all this.
Post edited by micky1p00 on
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited March 2017
This entire thread devolved from the point. If to ask "are TRs useful in PvE". Yes, they are. And no need to lower a class into some fancy trap remover. "4.3k TR, 3xR12 Bonding, Trap remover extraordinaire"
If the idea is to improve upon TR to be more easily comparable to other classes of the same type, lets look at the issues and suggest accordingly (most of this stuff I've already mentioned in multitude of similar threads) in PVE ! :
1. Scaling problem:
To get significant DPS TRs like other classes need to get high crit chance from stats, about same 100%. This turn the class mechanics (crit on stealth) useless. Or vice versa we can think as, on one hand a BiS TR have to invest around 25k into crit stat, and in a press of a button "stealth" those entire 25k are nullified and not taken into account. This is the only class that has a mechanics that you need to use (do you see a CW using EotS today?) and doesn't synergies with stats you must have.
This will make it scale much better, without significant changes to the class. (minimum dev effort) Also before people jump, at high crit severity adding 50% is not 50% more dps. So Please check the numbers before you jump. IT's a modest increase, and will make the class more balanced and scale better to the end game.
2. Fast moving bosses, short attack periouds, dodges, and DotS:
Some bosses like FBI (Drufi), or MSVA either move a lot, or appear for short phases of time. TRs (exe) utilize DF bleed to deal a large portion of the damage ( > 30%). But that bleed takes long time to set up (yes 3 flurries is long time in this context)
Also the randomness of the flurry bleed stacking makes it impossible have single rotation and it forces to try and look for the stack numbers, an impossible feat with the tiny text in the moving debuff list.
The same problem is that the mechanic is not forgiving for mistakes or extended dodges: Cought in ice, bleed dropped, dodged to far, bleed dropped, made rotation mistake, annnd you guessed it, no more bleed.
How to fix:
A ) Make a single flurry to add all the 10 stacks of bleed. Meaning that adding bleed is not a "chance" but a reliable system. This allows to set up the crit correctly, allows higher overall burst (less time to set up the damage) and easier mechanic for people, as now we can make a fixed rotation e.g. stealth->lashing->lurkers->stealth (late)->flurry->something something And not, "ahh watch the bleed, you need to DF to get the last stack to crit, gl, hf"
B ) Longer bleed retain + not only time refresh:
While A fixes some of the issues, still the short time it takes for the bleed to fall, makes mistakes not forgiving and limits the rotation, most will not wants to risk dodging and using more than 1 encounter in fear the bleed will drop. So having the bleed retained for a bit longer will make this easier. But this only on one condition, the bleed will not only refresh the stack timers, but also the damage if the damage is higher than the current ticking one.
Meaning, currently once the bleed is set, the damage will not be changed as long as it refreshed. Meaning Orcus set, feats like enemy health bellow 40% health, and etc... do not add anything to the bleed. So either this needs to be addressed, or only changed to point A, so we can drop the bleed and set it up again easier.
3. Shadowborn:
As of now this last tear feat is wasted on a single sly, bleed, or any attack, this makes it less than useful
Fix: Should be activated on single procing encounters only. (dazing, lashing, WR, smoke only if far all ticks and not a single one)
4. SoD:
Capstone that you can't proc in highly geared parties. Because most things die in less than 6 seconds. And this makes the path sad. And the class not to scale well into the high end. Or when power creep creeps once again like it does every time.
Solution: Should work in 1 sec ticks, you apply, and during the "debuff" it will apply 50% damage accumulated in the last second at second end. For current 6 seconds it will be 6 ticks. SoD biggest problem is BiS groups. Things don't last 6 seconds, and here gone the capstone. Also it doesn't register the SoD owner correctly, more than one TR and here come issues...
5. Feat issues (exe):
40% / 30% enemy HP based damage bonuses. Please no. They are much less useful than they seem, most things die to fast. One ice knife or IBS and your 5-10 points in feats are useless.
"died near you" / "killed by you" feats - Also, while Dying Breath is really fun it shouldn't be tied to mobs dying. Most Bosses do not have mobs. Also it forces the TR to run fast to the next mob pack to use the buff from the last dead mobs before it expires. Making it a formula race and not a dungeon crawl.
Twisted Grin - As the above but it also shares the problem with shadowborn. You need to run fast and have to use heavy hitting encounter.
Fix: This one is harder, and I do realize you can't have all great feats, but on the other hand we have 2 on death feats, and 2 on enemy hp, some variety will not hurt anyone For example: On crit, on stealth, on CA, on suggestions are welcome here.
Will add sabo later, or probably move to new thread.
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clericalistMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 595Arc User
Going back to the original question of this thread, in the Cragmire dungeon there is one part where one can open a gate from the other side, if a rogue can manage to sneak past all the enemies this can save time, and for low geared parties save lives. They need to add more innovative ideas to dungeons, provide shortcuts that can only done by a specific class (it does not just have to be for rogues) or provide special areas that can only be accessed by a specific class, make it more than just dps. And this has nothing to do with providing a "niche" to classes that can't win paingiver, its about making dungeons fun and versatile and not just about who wins paingiver.
As for the traps, they need to change how they work, not to find a niche for the rogue, but to punish bad behaviour. Who hasn't encountered the player who sprints ahead all the time not caring about where the rest of the party is, a trap system should exist to punish this, and punish them severely. These new traps would be randomly placed, cannot be bypassed with any items and cause instant death. To further punish bad behaviour, each time they die in a trap they have an increasing wait time before they can resurrect, 1 minute for the first death, 2 minutes for the second death, 4 minutes for the third, and so on, it will not take long before such players are kicked from parties and change their habits. A rogue can be the one class that can ahead solo to find traps (and perhaps rangers?), for parties that have no detector, make trap detection possible if 3 or 4 players are within a certain range to each other.
Rogues sneaking past mobs to allow the party to bypass parts of the dungeon has always been seen by Cryptic as an exploit. They aren't going to design content to encourage it. This isn't that kind of game. Our powers and abilities are for combat, not roleplaying or what have you.
Furthermore we are now up to 8 classes with a 9th hinted at in the livestream. We don't need class specific tasks in the dungeons when party size is limited to 5. There are enough issues forming parties with all party roles (tanks and healers) covered and you want to add additional obstacles?
A far as people running ahead they either outgear the content, in which case it doesn't matter, or else they pay for it themselves. If it bugs you, stop grouping with randoms and make your own parties.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Is shadowy disappearance and bait n switch useful for PVE these days?
Are blitz and path of the blade good?
Is duelist flurry too weak for being high risk?
Is disheartening strike's damage inferior to hellish rebuke and brand of the sun?
Are too many of the TR's feats too situational compared to other classes?
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
While A fixes some of the issues, still the short time it takes for the bleed to fall, makes mistakes not forgiving and limits the rotation, most will not wants to risk dodging and using more than 1 encounter in fear the bleed will drop. So having the bleed retained for a bit longer will make this easier. But this only on one condition, the bleed will not only refresh the stack timers, but also the damage if the damage is higher than the current ticking one.
Meaning, currently once the bleed is set, the damage will not be changed as long as it refreshed. Meaning Orcus set, feats like enemy health bellow 40% health, and etc... do not add anything to the bleed. So either this needs to be addressed, or only changed to point A, so we can drop the bleed and set it up again easier.
While lack of ITC is not the WK paragon's only shortcoming (and far from the saddest one), MI being able to use ITC to ride out things a WK had to dodge (or pray for a good deflect) is one of their disparities. Because the WK is forced to stop applying bleed in situations where the MI can Press the Advantage.
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited March 2017
Ehm... good party-minded rogues all use WR.
I'd say the power is designed around short duration debuff because of the very low cooldown with charges. You have to work to keep it up, but it's also nearly always available to proc stuff.
While A fixes some of the issues, still the short time it takes for the bleed to fall, makes mistakes not forgiving and limits the rotation, most will not wants to risk dodging and using more than 1 encounter in fear the bleed will drop. So having the bleed retained for a bit longer will make this easier. But this only on one condition, the bleed will not only refresh the stack timers, but also the damage if the damage is higher than the current ticking one.
Meaning, currently once the bleed is set, the damage will not be changed as long as it refreshed. Meaning Orcus set, feats like enemy health bellow 40% health, and etc... do not add anything to the bleed. So either this needs to be addressed, or only changed to point A, so we can drop the bleed and set it up again easier.
While lack of ITC is not the WK paragon's only shortcoming (and far from the saddest one), MI being able to use ITC to ride out things a WK had to dodge (or pray for a good deflect) is one of their disparities. Because the WK is forced to stop applying bleed in situations where the MI can Press the Advantage.
What I am noticing is my TR does lots of damage but if there is another high DP in the group, they often kill things before I can so my results are not recorded in the pain giver chart and I have decided that is OK.
Here are my two dps toons doing the same solo content with essentially the same gear, trans vorpal, +5 rings, high crit n power, proper armor pen and R12 bondings and same pets...(and no comments please on how sucky I am at GWF lol)
The TR is 4K with with relics at high purple and the GFW is 3.6K with twisted.
The end results are the same, little boss dies but the GWF missed a few hits and didn't even need to land the biggest hit to take the boss down. I think the time to kill the boss is pretty close and both toons killed the boss before landing the big hits...another example of 'lost damage'.
What I am noticing is my TR does lots of damage but if there is another high DP in the group, they often kill things before I can so my results are not recorded in the pain giver chart and I have decided that is OK.
Here are my two dps toons doing the same solo content with essentially the same gear, trans vorpal, +5 rings, high crit n power, proper armor pen and R12 bondings and same pets...(and no comments please on how sucky I am at GWF lol)
The TR is 4K with with relics at high purple and the GFW is 3.6K with twisted.
The end results are the same, little boss dies but the GWF missed a few hits and didn't even need to land the biggest hit to take the boss down. I think the time to kill the boss is pretty close and both toons killed the boss before landing the big hits...another example of 'lost damage'.
May i ask wich classfeatures you are using? I could see only one in the video (the UI between Pc and consoles are totally different), and this was Skillfull Infiltrator. Make a change to Infiltrators Action (and way more important, change your offhand bonus also to Infiltrators Action), and Invisible Infiltrator. These change was for me an huge dps boost, the only thing i had to do was slotting my Rank 12 Darks from defense into utilty slots for the movement speed i had lost. Give it an try on your next dungeon run.
Also try out the encounter "Impossible to catch" with the feat "Press the Advantage" from the scoundrel tree, also an self dps boost. Test it out in some solo inis or skirmishes, or read only @sirjimbofrancis guide and his excellent explantions how and when to use it.
Personally i dumbed my +2k Power or +2k crit mount bonus to an "Fast Action" bonus that grants me 15% Ap back after using a daily, so i benefit relatively often from both class features. But this i think is something people could aiming for, if they have not yet the gear with enough power or crit out of stealth (btw very good explanation @micky1p00 about wasted stats and the crit -> stealth mechanik).
I bounce my passives around a bit but I think in this I am running Invisible and Oppressive. I do need to unlock my off hand powers I just have not had the cubes to do that yet but so far I am loving the relics!
I have the feats for Press the Advantage and ran ITC for some time, I just recently put lashing back on. The trouble I have is its hard to really tell on Xbox which rotation is giving me more damage over time as the logs are really chatty.
I read his build several times, and my TR does lots of damage. I just dont feel like it does as much as my gwf over time, but I can't prove it cause no good tools on Xbox and its just a feel thing...my GWF feels like it does way more damage.
Believe us, we Pc Players have much more things to test like ACT and the Preview Server, so the classfeature cobination i have mentioned before is actually the best we could have. So to invest some AD into the offhand bonus is really worth.
What I am noticing is my TR does lots of damage but if there is another high DP in the group, they often kill things before I can so my results are not recorded in the pain giver chart and I have decided that is OK.
Here are my two dps toons doing the same solo content with essentially the same gear, trans vorpal, +5 rings, high crit n power, proper armor pen and R12 bondings and same pets...(and no comments please on how sucky I am at GWF lol)
The TR is 4K with with relics at high purple and the GFW is 3.6K with twisted.
The end results are the same, little boss dies but the GWF missed a few hits and didn't even need to land the biggest hit to take the boss down. I think the time to kill the boss is pretty close and both toons killed the boss before landing the big hits...another example of 'lost damage'.
Hey Sunny,
In looking at your video, maybe I'm missing it because I'm not used to the layout on consoles, but it looked like you used your stealth with your smoke bomb. Is that right? If so, you're missing out on a lot of damage from not using your stealth with the lashing blade which grants you an additional +50% crit severity if used from stealth. I hit smoke bomb without stealth and then stealth>lashing blade, if I don't use a daily against a single target. But, I keep a pretty high crit chance, so that may not work as well if you don't.
You know what you are doing, of course. Just thought I'd see if I could help.
Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR She Looked Lvl 18
Smoke doesn't take you out of stealth, so you can drop smoke then pop a lashing blade which will take you out of stealth.
Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold" Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Smoke most surely does take you out of stealth. You can get back into stealth again for Lashing with say Lurker's fast refill, or Sab feats (which is how I tend to play a Sab), but it's not optimal for Executioners to stealth-Smoke.
Different for a trash rotation though, where you might want to Stealth, WoB, Smoke, something....
Don't know if it is super efficient, but I've been doing Smoke, start DF, Stealth in mid DF, the LB (or often Daze) but that is mostly practice on SoMI giants since my plans to regear my MI are hold pending the promised rework.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
Maybe it's a WK thing... or a PS4 thing... but I use smoke all the time and it has never taken me out of stealth. I'm certainly not complaining.
Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold" Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
Yes rogue is in a bad place right now.. Sadly the only thing we can do is dps but so can every other class just as good plus they have other group viability Sw can control aoe and dot. Gwf has much better defense and aoe Cw it's not even a match in dps with all the things they possess. TR decent damage but tinfoil armor hardly any real aoe and little to no CC. We just don't bring anything to the table unique or useful And while a handful of us can still top the charts it is at 4500 IL with BiS gear with ranked out chants and bondings vs average CW and GWF's. Show us some love
Sadly the only thing we can do is dps but so can every other class just as good plus they have other group viability
Sw can control aoe and dot.
Gwf has much better defense and aoe
Cw it's not even a match in dps with all the things they possess.
TR decent damage but tinfoil armor hardly any real aoe and little to no CC.
We just don't bring anything to the table unique or useful
And while a handful of us can still top the charts it is at 4500 IL with BiS gear with ranked out chants and bondings vs average CW and GWF's.
Show us some love
I disagree a little bit with this statement.
For me, the Tr has the best safe cc than any other class, bc of our stealth mechanic, so espaicelly for an low ilvl party an stealthed dazing strike and a smokebomb, could make an run much smoother. Also we can debuff in an low buff/debuff party with flourish, wicked reminder and courage breaker ( i had an CN run with an suboptimal party combosition with an Healadin, Gf, Gwf, Sw and me and it was uuhhm not so well).
Also you could see in the video, spidey had posted, that an Tr is able to facetank Hatti and guildwise we had more than one run without an tank class, i was in the strange position to facetank him (no video or screen as proove, only my word)
So there are still, many of us has mentioned before, the crux of the class:
- Outdated cooldowns against other classes - Same investments in crit, so the stealth mechanic, grants us only one 100% crit chance with an encounter - bleeding stacks from df are only a chance and too high, to be really effective and too easy to interrupt - we should more benefit as melee with higher dps while in close combat, for our risky playstyle - the self buff from ITC could be higher, bc it is again an encounter without an direct damage output (like the old smokebomb until the rework from Mod 5) - slow ap gain while using such an fast at will like df - always the struggle Pve against pvp, devs should stop listening about the whining from Pvp'ers, it is now really the time we Pve Tr's should also benefit for our investments and loyality standing for our class.
Spoken from the very biased view as an Mi exe, can't speak for sabo, scoundrel nor Wk.
^^ you really can't it was 4280 then 4350 Now changing out for 160 gear and changing the 145 shirt out for 150 and 1 point for overloads You can hit almost 4400 4382and it was giving 14 extra points for 2 items from something we never figured out what it was even taking off everything they still stayed But with that u reached 4410 We just say 4500 meaning there's nothing more you can possibly do you are 100% BiS as you can have a max gear score without being truly BiS having RD weapons and lostmauth set would be the same as shadewalkers and Orcus ... but we all know that it is really not the same so in our guild lfg a 4K toon is a 4100-4380 so when you say things like Hdps it means ranked out companion it's more a term good guilds use rather than a actual score @talon1970 you think TR is the best safe CC class?? Wow!! Kinda blows me away! Are we talking about the same Cc= crowd control? Because stealth yeah end game they can see through stealth and dazes bosses and end game mobs are immune.., so what CC are you using a TR for ?maybe limited on trash mobs that you really don't need it for anyway but comparing a TR to a CONTROL wizard or a trapper HR for crowd control is a non starter..
Comments
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Lets compare apples to apples, or at least fruits to fruits. Not sure what you mean by perma-stealth, but those are more or less extinct from what I see (doesn't mean I see everything though). Gloaming Cut is bugged (beneficially) and still I never saw someone using it getting comparable dps. And mange to suffer that noise. While the first is a good point. Why there is a need to call people lazy.. etc.. Someone made a suggestion, you don't agree.. No need to take it low. You do realize the dungeon is 0-sum. It doesn't matter if it was a TR there, or a second DC, a GF or anything else. It will be an issue of time, and not, not getting through, as long as the player is capable enough with the dodges.
So can't see the point of all this.
"4.3k TR, 3xR12 Bonding, Trap remover extraordinaire"
If the idea is to improve upon TR to be more easily comparable to other classes of the same type, lets look at the issues and suggest accordingly (most of this stuff I've already mentioned in multitude of similar threads) in PVE ! :
1. Scaling problem:
To get significant DPS TRs like other classes need to get high crit chance from stats, about same 100%. This turn the class mechanics (crit on stealth) useless. Or vice versa we can think as, on one hand a BiS TR have to invest around 25k into crit stat, and in a press of a button "stealth" those entire 25k are nullified and not taken into account.
This is the only class that has a mechanics that you need to use (do you see a CW using EotS today?) and doesn't synergies with stats you must have.
How to fix:
As of now, stealth to make it work, adds 100% crit chance as a direct rating modifier. So for example if we have 70% from ability and stat, we have 170% chance at a press of a stealth button. Obviously 170% is in no way better than 100% unless:
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1228973/leftovers-of-critical-chance-and-lifesteal-chance
This will make it scale much better, without significant changes to the class. (minimum dev effort) Also before people jump, at high crit severity adding 50% is not 50% more dps. So Please check the numbers before you jump. IT's a modest increase, and will make the class more balanced and scale better to the end game.
2. Fast moving bosses, short attack periouds, dodges, and DotS:
Some bosses like FBI (Drufi), or MSVA either move a lot, or appear for short phases of time. TRs (exe) utilize DF bleed to deal a large portion of the damage ( > 30%). But that bleed takes long time to set up (yes 3 flurries is long time in this context)
Also the randomness of the flurry bleed stacking makes it impossible have single rotation and it forces to try and look for the stack numbers, an impossible feat with the tiny text in the moving debuff list.
The same problem is that the mechanic is not forgiving for mistakes or extended dodges:
Cought in ice, bleed dropped, dodged to far, bleed dropped, made rotation mistake, annnd you guessed it, no more bleed.
How to fix:
A ) Make a single flurry to add all the 10 stacks of bleed. Meaning that adding bleed is not a "chance" but a reliable system.
This allows to set up the crit correctly, allows higher overall burst (less time to set up the damage) and easier mechanic for people, as now we can make a fixed rotation e.g. stealth->lashing->lurkers->stealth (late)->flurry->something something
And not, "ahh watch the bleed, you need to DF to get the last stack to crit, gl, hf"
B ) Longer bleed retain + not only time refresh:
While A fixes some of the issues, still the short time it takes for the bleed to fall, makes mistakes not forgiving and limits the rotation, most will not wants to risk dodging and using more than 1 encounter in fear the bleed will drop.
So having the bleed retained for a bit longer will make this easier. But this only on one condition, the bleed will not only refresh the stack timers, but also the damage if the damage is higher than the current ticking one.
Meaning, currently once the bleed is set, the damage will not be changed as long as it refreshed. Meaning Orcus set, feats like enemy health bellow 40% health, and etc... do not add anything to the bleed.
So either this needs to be addressed, or only changed to point A, so we can drop the bleed and set it up again easier.
3. Shadowborn:
As of now this last tear feat is wasted on a single sly, bleed, or any attack, this makes it less than useful
Fix: Should be activated on single procing encounters only. (dazing, lashing, WR, smoke only if far all ticks and not a single one)
4. SoD:
Capstone that you can't proc in highly geared parties. Because most things die in less than 6 seconds. And this makes the path sad. And the class not to scale well into the high end.
Or when power creep creeps once again like it does every time.
Solution:
Should work in 1 sec ticks, you apply, and during the "debuff" it will apply 50% damage accumulated in the last second at second end. For current 6 seconds it will be 6 ticks. SoD biggest problem is BiS groups. Things don't last 6 seconds, and here gone the capstone. Also it doesn't register the SoD owner correctly, more than one TR and here come issues...
5. Feat issues (exe):
40% / 30% enemy HP based damage bonuses. Please no. They are much less useful than they seem, most things die to fast. One ice knife or IBS and your 5-10 points in feats are useless.
"died near you" / "killed by you" feats - Also, while Dying Breath is really fun it shouldn't be tied to mobs dying. Most Bosses do not have mobs. Also it forces the TR to run fast to the next mob pack to use the buff from the last dead mobs before it expires. Making it a formula race and not a dungeon crawl.
Twisted Grin - As the above but it also shares the problem with shadowborn. You need to run fast and have to use heavy hitting encounter.
Fix: This one is harder, and I do realize you can't have all great feats, but on the other hand we have 2 on death feats, and 2 on enemy hp, some variety will not hurt anyone
For example: On crit, on stealth, on CA, on suggestions are welcome here.
Will add sabo later, or probably move to new thread.
As for the traps, they need to change how they work, not to find a niche for the rogue, but to punish bad behaviour. Who hasn't encountered the player who sprints ahead all the time not caring about where the rest of the party is, a trap system should exist to punish this, and punish them severely. These new traps would be randomly placed, cannot be bypassed with any items and cause instant death. To further punish bad behaviour, each time they die in a trap they have an increasing wait time before they can resurrect, 1 minute for the first death, 2 minutes for the second death, 4 minutes for the third, and so on, it will not take long before such players are kicked from parties and change their habits. A rogue can be the one class that can ahead solo to find traps (and perhaps rangers?), for parties that have no detector, make trap detection possible if 3 or 4 players are within a certain range to each other.
Furthermore we are now up to 8 classes with a 9th hinted at in the livestream. We don't need class specific tasks in the dungeons when party size is limited to 5. There are enough issues forming parties with all party roles (tanks and healers) covered and you want to add additional obstacles?
A far as people running ahead they either outgear the content, in which case it doesn't matter, or else they pay for it themselves. If it bugs you, stop grouping with randoms and make your own parties.
Are blitz and path of the blade good?
Is duelist flurry too weak for being high risk?
Is disheartening strike's damage inferior to hellish rebuke and brand of the sun?
Are too many of the TR's feats too situational compared to other classes?
(seewhatididthere?)
Neverwinter Census 2017
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I'd say the power is designed around short duration debuff because of the very low cooldown with charges. You have to work to keep it up, but it's also nearly always available to proc stuff.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Here are my two dps toons doing the same solo content with essentially the same gear, trans vorpal, +5 rings, high crit n power,
proper armor pen and R12 bondings and same pets...(and no comments please on how sucky I am at GWF lol)
The TR is 4K with with relics at high purple and the GFW is 3.6K with twisted.
Here is my TR: http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/Suns Tip/video/28718162
And my GWF: http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/Suns Tip/video/28718121
The end results are the same, little boss dies but the GWF missed a few hits and didn't even need to land the biggest hit to take the boss down. I think the time to kill the boss is pretty close and both toons killed the boss before landing the big hits...another example of 'lost damage'.
OP - Sunshine: 16000 IL
Casual Dailies
I could see only one in the video (the UI between Pc and consoles are totally different), and this was Skillfull Infiltrator.
Make a change to Infiltrators Action (and way more important, change your offhand bonus also to Infiltrators Action), and Invisible Infiltrator.
These change was for me an huge dps boost, the only thing i had to do was slotting my Rank 12 Darks from defense into utilty slots for the movement speed i had lost.
Give it an try on your next dungeon run.
Also try out the encounter "Impossible to catch" with the feat "Press the Advantage" from the scoundrel tree, also an self dps boost.
Test it out in some solo inis or skirmishes, or read only @sirjimbofrancis guide and his excellent explantions how and when to use it.
Personally i dumbed my +2k Power or +2k crit mount bonus to an "Fast Action" bonus that grants me 15% Ap back after using a daily, so i benefit relatively often from both class features.
But this i think is something people could aiming for, if they have not yet the gear with enough power or crit out of stealth (btw very good explanation @micky1p00 about wasted stats and the crit -> stealth mechanik).
Greets
I have the feats for Press the Advantage and ran ITC for some time, I just recently put lashing back on. The trouble I have is its hard to really tell on Xbox which rotation is giving me more damage over time as the logs are really chatty.
I read his build several times, and my TR does lots of damage. I just dont feel like it does as much as my gwf over time, but I can't prove it cause no good tools on Xbox and its just a feel thing...my GWF feels like it does way more damage.
OP - Sunshine: 16000 IL
Casual Dailies
So to invest some AD into the offhand bonus is really worth.
In looking at your video, maybe I'm missing it because I'm not used to the layout on consoles, but it looked like you used your stealth with your smoke bomb. Is that right? If so, you're missing out on a lot of damage from not using your stealth with the lashing blade which grants you an additional +50% crit severity if used from stealth. I hit smoke bomb without stealth and then stealth>lashing blade, if I don't use a daily against a single target. But, I keep a pretty high crit chance, so that may not work as well if you don't.
You know what you are doing, of course. Just thought I'd see if I could help.
She Looked Lvl 18
Here is my Blog
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
Different for a trash rotation though, where you might want to Stealth, WoB, Smoke, something....
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
Sadly the only thing we can do is dps but so can every other class just as good plus they have other group viability
Sw can control aoe and dot.
Gwf has much better defense and aoe
Cw it's not even a match in dps with all the things they possess.
TR decent damage but tinfoil armor hardly any real aoe and little to no CC.
We just don't bring anything to the table unique or useful
And while a handful of us can still top the charts it is at 4500 IL with BiS gear with ranked out chants and bondings vs average CW and GWF's.
Show us some love
For me, the Tr has the best safe cc than any other class, bc of our stealth mechanic, so espaicelly for an low ilvl party an stealthed dazing strike and a smokebomb, could make an run much smoother.
Also we can debuff in an low buff/debuff party with flourish, wicked reminder and courage breaker ( i had an CN run with an suboptimal party combosition with an Healadin, Gf, Gwf, Sw and me and it was uuhhm not so well).
Also you could see in the video, spidey had posted, that an Tr is able to facetank Hatti and guildwise we had more than one run without an tank class, i was in the strange position to facetank him (no video or screen as proove, only my word)
So there are still, many of us has mentioned before, the crux of the class:
- Outdated cooldowns against other classes
- Same investments in crit, so the stealth mechanic, grants us only one 100% crit chance with an encounter
- bleeding stacks from df are only a chance and too high, to be really effective and too easy to interrupt
- we should more benefit as melee with higher dps while in close combat, for our risky playstyle
- the self buff from ITC could be higher, bc it is again an encounter without an direct damage output (like the old smokebomb until the rework from Mod 5)
- slow ap gain while using such an fast at will like df
- always the struggle Pve against pvp, devs should stop listening about the whining from Pvp'ers, it is now really the time we Pve Tr's should also benefit for our investments and loyality standing for our class.
Spoken from the very biased view as an Mi exe, can't speak for sabo, scoundrel nor Wk.
Now changing out for 160 gear and changing the 145 shirt out for 150 and 1 point for overloads
You can hit almost 4400 4382and it was giving 14 extra points for 2 items from something we never figured out what it was even taking off everything they still stayed
But with that u reached 4410
We just say 4500 meaning there's nothing more you can possibly do you are 100% BiS as you can have a max gear score without being truly BiS having RD weapons and lostmauth set would be the same as shadewalkers and Orcus ... but we all know that it is really not the same so in our guild lfg a 4K toon is a 4100-4380 so when you say things like Hdps it means ranked out companion it's more a term good guilds use rather than a actual score
@talon1970 you think TR is the best safe CC class??
Wow!! Kinda blows me away!
Are we talking about the same Cc= crowd control?
Because stealth yeah end game they can see through stealth and dazes bosses and end game mobs are immune.., so what CC are you using a TR for ?maybe limited on trash mobs that you really don't need it for anyway but comparing a TR to a CONTROL wizard or a trapper HR for crowd control is a non starter..