But to be honest, we aren't the best "High Single Target/Boss Killer" Class or "high aoe dps class" like in Mod 5 anymore, not as long other dps classes could bring on the same/or more dps in half the time we have to wait for stealth or CD from encounters.
It does seem like there should be a feat that reduces CDs for TR. I wonder if there is a stat that reduces cooldowns. Sure would be nice if we had the ability to get more stealth faster somehow though feats or at-wills or encounters or dailies. LOL
But all kidding/snarkiness aside, LB does seem like it could use a little tweak on the recharge time, considering the current state of the game. It hits so damn hard, but as you say the timing has to be there with the rest of the team, and if you miss that buff window it's a longer time to try again vs. what other classes have to do. Good point.
There are really good sabos out there. They, I think, are the harder path to take in terms of timing. But, they can do as much damage as an exe in the right hands.
My opinion about TRs is that, all things being equal, in most situations, a GWF can out DPS TRs. That's hardly news right now as GWFs can out DPS pretty much anyone with equal equipment, etc.
That being said, I haven't seen a 3200 il GWF out DPS me in a long time. Not that IL really means that much as some of the biggest buffs aren't even counted. But a typical 3200 IL GWF would have a hard time doing more damage than me in most content. And, I'm not the most skilled TR out there, nor do I have any big guild boons. I can appreciate @sundance777 and his feeling for his TR, but I believe Sunny is overstating his case.
I've personally run FBI with 3 TRs and finished in 25 minutes or so. I wouldn't hesitate to run MSVA with 6 TRs and I bet we'd finish in less than 10 minutes. The question is if TRs are "useless" in PVE. And, the answer is no. Anyone who is running end game content can benefit from a properly built and played TR.
One of the problems TRs are facing is that a lot of TRs believe the class is great in PVP and lousy in PVE. The leads to a bunch of PVP TRs running endgame PVE content. To be fair, an awful lot of PVP players have a hard time in endgame PVE content. But, there are plenty of great PVE TRs out there. If someone is running a MSVA or a FBI and they state at the outset to not bring a TR, frankly, they are an idiot. I can understand NEEDING a certain class. A tank and DC, for sure. After that, adding a TR to the group should not hinder any run you want to do.
There are good and bad players of every class. Right now, the biggest problem I have, honestly, is with picking up GWFs. There are a lot of new players, a lot of players who aren't proficient, and a lot of GWFs who aren't paying attention. This is probably due more to there being just a bunch of them running around right now because it's the FOTM for damage, so you are just more likely to pick one up. However, I would never go so far as to say they were useless.
For lower geared TRs, they should still be able to compete in most content with similarly geared classes. I'm not sure where the idea of a build being only good for BIS TRs came from. Can't get the Orcus? Run Lostmauth, or run without a set and just use equipment that helps your stats. You certainly don't need a 4K mount. I ran a 2k mount until a month ago. But, remember when you are comparing your damage, to take into account that you should compare yourself to other characters with similar gear. None of the equipment you have or your IL will change rotations, or powers, or how feats and skills work.
And, nothing, NOTHING, is stopping you from changing the build up, if you think something works better. But, I'd advise testing it out. You might stumble onto some secret we don't know! Shadow Strike might hit like Lashing Blade, but I don't know, because I have never ever really used it. The more TRs we have testing stuff, the better we will all be off.
I agree that the problem TRs have is the complexity of the rotation along with the length of the cool downs. If we get interrupted, we take a bigger hit to our overall DPS and it takes us way longer to recover to where we are ready to do our rotation again. Our damage output could also use some more umph for the effort we have to put in.
I don't think our biggest problem is survivability. We have stealth, ITC, high deflection severity, a great dodge, etc. TRs just gotta stop playing the class like they are GWFs...
Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR She Looked Lvl 18
@sirjimbofrancis I read your build and it's good, very informative. For anyone else wanting to take a look, click the "here is my blog" link in his title.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Okay so when I started I created a WK TR and botched it up royally. After I hit 70 I did a respec that was based off of a MI build but tweaked for WK. My damage at that point was equal to the other same IL TR's that I run with (both MI). But I have some of the top GWF's as friends so clearly my damage wasn't going to get me anywhere - I did a respec trying to create a debuff/armor breaking/ aoe TR. That was fun and actually seemed to be very useful against Orcus/ Lostmauth. The problem is that playing a debuff build with pugs people thing you have garbage damage and are therefore useless. (I was still up there on damage but not what it had been).
So last night we sat down and really studied the WK - me and one of my friends who decided to respec from MI to WK just to see what I was trying to explain. Perhaps you can fill in the missing puzzle piece.
The WK is clearly meant to be a ranged dagger throwing DOT character. However - when we all set up that way and spend a few hours on the practice dummies (and killing things in the stronghold) though it was fun -we weren't able to make the damage of the WK match up to the MI. Is there something about the WK that we are missing? Since we are on PS4 we don't have access to all of the neat tools you guys have or we'd be on them. I see a lot of attacks and feats that individually do the same or similar damage to MI attacks - but there doesn't seem to be the link we need to make it all role into a killing machine.
Is that why I'm the only WK I've ever seen? Lol
Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold" Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
0
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited January 2017
Probably a bit out of the scope of this thread, but 2 AD:
IMO, at lower gear levels TRs have an advantage. It's the point where a rogue can use the stealth to ensure critical strike one the important hits, while not investing a lot of stats into crit. Other classes, even GWFs can't do this. It's later when everyone invest the 15k+ stats into crit and get to 100% crit chance (or close) TR scale much worse. While other classes like GWF for example don't have a class mechanic (unstoppable) that compete with any of their stats, on the contrary it has full synergy, press tab and you get more out of your crit chance, severity and power, because you get more attack speed. While TR press tab and looses all the effectiveness of the crit stat.
So this bring me to the point, at lower gear levels (mainly critical chance wise) the rotation should invest in more sustained damage, and getting more critical out of stealth. So IMO: 1. No shadowborn, not enough base power to make it worth. 2. Arterial Cut. - We try to do more things in stealth / our big hits, so we get more from this. 3. Dying breath, Deathkneel, Last moments. Without shadowborn it's possible to feat those and back ally and this will give a mix of better mob killing with dying breath and regular boss damage with te other two.
Now the bigger difference, rotation: We try to get the most out of stealth and usually the party is also weeker so we need less burst but more damage. So we can DF ( late stealth), get some of it from stealth and then encounter (from stealth too). Something like smoke->DF(late stealth)->lashing / dazing. This way with correct timing, even with 0 crit chance, we always get the important parts in crit, the flurry bleed, and part of flurry damage. And at least one encounter, preferably the bigger hitting one like lashing, to get the most out of it.
As opposed to BiS, we have different 'mentality', we have almost 100% crit chance from stats, so steath plays much less significant part in this. (And this is the class issue) So we use stealth as a trigger for other things, or a sequence initiator.
Here we can use Shadowborn, and Grim Pleasure (I persoanly put 2 points in Dying breath, and 3 in Deathkneel, because I like Dying breath) Now it's possible to use a more burst / trigger oriented rotation: Stealth->Dazing / lashing ->.... daily / DF... No DF late stealth from the start.
This is to get the maximum out of shadowborn, activate SoD at the start, and set grimm pleasure for the further stuff. In essence no longer holding out the stealth for critical at the right moment, but using maximum burst at the start)
This is how I see it, ofc. I hope I've managed to explain it clear enough.
PS:
There was another thread with sugestions that probably long lost in the abyss of the forums, but imo one of the easier changes to TR is just to make DF bleed stacks not random, but a flurry gives all 10 stacks in one go. And specific change to exe is shadowborn affects only encounter activation. And not bleed / smoke instances.
Other things like SoD and so on are more complex, but those two are imo, fast and easy and make the class (exe path) better in minimal change.
@sirjimbofrancis I read your build and it's good, very informative. For anyone else wanting to take a look, click the "here is my blog" link in his title.
@sirjimbofrancis I have read your build before and just reread it and compared it to mine, it is very similar and a good build for sure. I see a few differences in the Heroics as I am Dragonborn, I had to pick fewer heroic feats and then I took roll with the punches instead of press the advantage as I don't slot ITC for pve and Arterial over Grim pleasure, but I feel like I could change that for some testing. Although the calculated 1.5% damage increase is not going to make much difference as you stated in your blog. I also run oppressive darkness for the piercing damage when combat advantage. I do admittedly use Courage Breaker on bosses and whirlwind on mobs when in a group instead of lurkers.
The GWF in this was around 3.3 - 3.4K IL at the time while I was 4K. This gwf was not playing a rotation like some of the elite GWF's I know, the GWF's that know the correct rotation would out dps this GWF by 25-30% minimum. I don't seem to have any screens of these guys handy.
I did 'catch up' a bit on the boss fight in that run but I grew tired of hearing pretty good for a TR and now my half built GWF that I hardly know how to play is the top of these boards above my protege TR who also runs my build and is 4K.
I will likely go back to my TR as I love it, and I am tempted to move stuff back and play with i more tonight (thanks for the inspiration) but my point is, I feel that there are some simple class mechanics in the GWF that make it the top melee damage in everything other than maybe a solo boss fight, that the TR can not overcome and hence my interest in this post about getting the TR up a little on the damage output.
@sirjimbofrancis I read your build and it's good, very informative. For anyone else wanting to take a look, click the "here is my blog" link in his title.
@sirjimbofrancis I have read your build before and just reread it and compared it to mine, it is very similar and a good build for sure. I see a few differences in the Heroics as I am Dragonborn, I had to pick fewer heroic feats and then I took roll with the punches instead of press the advantage as I don't slot ITC for pve and Arterial over Grim pleasure, but I feel like I could change that for some testing. Although the calculated 1.5% damage increase is not going to make much difference as you stated in your blog. I also run oppressive darkness for the piercing damage when combat advantage. I do admittedly use Courage Breaker on bosses and whirlwind on mobs when in a group instead of lurkers.
The GWF in this was around 3.3 - 3.4K IL at the time while I was 4K. This gwf was not playing a rotation like some of the elite GWF's I know, the GWF's that know the correct rotation would out dps this GWF by 25-30% minimum. I don't seem to have any screens of these guys handy.
I did 'catch up' a bit on the boss fight in that run but I grew tired of hearing pretty good for a TR and now my half built GWF that I hardly know how to play is the top of these boards above my protege TR who also runs my build and is 4K.
I will likely go back to my TR as I love it, and I am tempted to move stuff back and play with i more tonight (thanks for the inspiration) but my point is, I feel that there are some simple class mechanics in the GWF that make it the top melee damage in everything other than maybe a solo boss fight, that the TR can not overcome and hence my interest in this post about getting the TR up a little on the damage output.
Change your classfeature from Oppressive Darkness to Infiltrators Action. (OD is not worth it, just a few 100 more dps) I was also thinking a long time it isn't worth to have combat advantage, but then i noticed also high geared Trs are using it in PvE and then i took an look for the offhand bonus. You deal 20 seconds 5% (is that right?) more damage. (If the german translation is not misleading again) 20 seconds could be a long time.
I had also some thoughts, if the classfeature combination "Infiltrators Action" and "Invisible Infiltrator" is the best or (just theorycrafting by myself) why not give an try to the combination: "Infiltrators Action" and "Tactic". Could it be that these two classfeatures give us more dps, faster daily ready, more benefits from "IA" sure we have eventually to sacrifice "Black Alley Tactic" but then we could eventually max out Grim Pleasure and Vicious Pursuit or Shady Preperation to lower our high cooldowns.
@sundance777 I think you should give it another shot! Make sure when you slot IA, you take the offhand weapon power that gives your 5% damage bonus. Also, the power buff from courage breaker, I believe is on base power? Can someone corroborate? Anyway, if you slot LA instead, with the flat damage % increase, you'll see a big difference and your stealth comes back very fast as well. If you are still running the Lostmauth set, grab the Orcus set when you can. Stats aren't great, but it does make a difference. I know our builds have a lot of similarities, which is why I know you can out produce GWFs at that level. But, we gotta squeeze everything we can, as usual! Besides, don't you wanna be able to say, "pretty good, for a GWF"?
Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR She Looked Lvl 18
@sirjimbofrancis I read your build and it's good, very informative. For anyone else wanting to take a look, click the "here is my blog" link in his title.
@sirjimbofrancis I have read your build before and just reread it and compared it to mine, it is very similar and a good build for sure. I see a few differences in the Heroics as I am Dragonborn, I had to pick fewer heroic feats and then I took roll with the punches instead of press the advantage as I don't slot ITC for pve and Arterial over Grim pleasure, but I feel like I could change that for some testing. Although the calculated 1.5% damage increase is not going to make much difference as you stated in your blog. I also run oppressive darkness for the piercing damage when combat advantage. I do admittedly use Courage Breaker on bosses and whirlwind on mobs when in a group instead of lurkers.
The GWF in this was around 3.3 - 3.4K IL at the time while I was 4K. This gwf was not playing a rotation like some of the elite GWF's I know, the GWF's that know the correct rotation would out dps this GWF by 25-30% minimum. I don't seem to have any screens of these guys handy.
I did 'catch up' a bit on the boss fight in that run but I grew tired of hearing pretty good for a TR and now my half built GWF that I hardly know how to play is the top of these boards above my protege TR who also runs my build and is 4K.
I will likely go back to my TR as I love it, and I am tempted to move stuff back and play with i more tonight (thanks for the inspiration) but my point is, I feel that there are some simple class mechanics in the GWF that make it the top melee damage in everything other than maybe a solo boss fight, that the TR can not overcome and hence my interest in this post about getting the TR up a little on the damage output.
Change your classfeature from Oppressive Darkness to Infiltrators Action. (OD is not worth it, just a few 100 more dps) I was also thinking a long time it isn't worth to have combat advantage, but then i noticed also high geared Trs are using it in PvE and then i took an look for the offhand bonus. You deal 20 seconds 5% (is that right?) more damage. (If the german translation is not misleading again) 20 seconds could be a long time.
I had also some thoughts, if the classfeature combination "Infiltrators Action" and "Invisible Infiltrator" is the best or (just theorycrafting by myself) why not give an try to the combination: "Infiltrators Action" and "Tactic". Could it be that these two classfeatures give us more dps, faster daily ready, more benefits from "IA" sure we have eventually to sacrifice "Black Alley Tactic" but then we could eventually max out Grim Pleasure and Vicious Pursuit or Shady Preperation to lower our high cooldowns.
Feel free to discuss
I'd say that, in groups, our daily comes back about every 30 seconds without losing our passive power which adds a big flat damage boost and the feat which adds another flat 25% damage boost immediately after using our daily when we are doing our best damage to maximize SoD. It's awful hard to justify dropping that feat and power, unless you are running a super high recovery/action point build. Even then, I would never drop Infiltrator's action. After all, if your daily is coming back more quickly, you'll be getting the boost from Invisible Infiltrator more frequently. And, it's a much better boost than IA.
Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR She Looked Lvl 18
Is there something about the WK that we are missing?
Take your WKs out to the "moving bosses" that were mentioned earlier in the thread.
You have range and VP teleporting, maybe put some feats into DHS to get that debuff/extra damage going. Where MIs will admittedly have a trickier time keeping effective sustained DPS on the boss that moves frequently, WKs might reveal their strength. I would also experiment with other less orthodox encounters instead of the same old - same old, as Jimbo said. Try stuff out.
I did 'catch up' a bit on the boss fight in that run but I grew tired of hearing pretty good for a TR and now my half built GWF that I hardly know how to play is the top of these boards above my protege TR who also runs my build and is 4K.
Janitors will be janitors. You are a rock star. Let the GWFs sweep up the garbage while you do the "real" heavy lifting.
But honestly, if you are getting close to matching a GWF in total damage while doing single target vs. his massive AoE striking ability, maybe the TRs DO need a nerf.
Good Lord, think of how hard you must be hitting to keep up -- hitting 1 thing at a time vs. him hitting 4-5 at a time.
@sundance777 no, no, no. No to courage breaker. You only use that if you absolutely most save the group in boss fights. Lurkers assault and whirl wind are absolutely crucial.
I will tell you this. If you dont find yourself using lurkers assualt during fights with mobs, you're doing something wrong. Are you seeing your lashing blade hit above a mil while moving through dungeons? Is your dazing strike hitting groups for hundreds of thousands? It should be.
Gwfs have got to be the absolute top tier to beat my tr. Most cannot. I have darks slotted in my utility slots lol. Good luck trying to outrun me in dungeons, use all your stamina then be worthless when we actually get to the fight.
Important question. Are you using the wheel of elements and the orcus set? You should be.
Something else I wanted to add. Yesterday on my 4k DC I ran pug and ended up with a 4.2k HR and 4.2k GWF. The HR crushed the GWF. As you can imagine, it was a super fast run with orcus barely getting a chance to breathe. At those levels, and with my dc making them hit very hard, the only thing that mattered between the two is who made decisions faster and hit harder first.
[SNIP]... I have darks slotted in my utility slots lol. Good luck trying to outrun me in dungeons, use all your stamina then be worthless when we actually get to the fight.
^^^^ This guy gets it. Paingiver is about getting to the mobs first and doing AoE. If you are still trying to be Paingiver then slot as much movement speed as you can any way you can, because running ahead and killing everything before everyone else is how you win it.
Of course, you run the risk of being labeled a gloryhounding HAMSTER as you earn well-deserved eyerolls and derision from the rest of your team (who are not impressed), but you gotta take the good with the bad I suppose.
I agree with everything @raymond00713 said, except I think you are better off with Whirlwind against mobs than LA because of the power boost giving you more extra damage for longer against mobs. I also run Shadowborn, so that effect also adds to WW.
Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR She Looked Lvl 18
@sirjimbofrancis I do use whirl wind in most mob situations. What i mean is there are times that a high hp mob is the only thing left standing and I'll fire LA at him to bring him down quick. BTW thanks for all you've done for the TR community. Your guide and other stuff you've written are awesome!
I will rework mine a bit, it seems there is more fun to be had. I did slot lurkers and hit a few small runs, it makes a cool sound for sure, hehe.
I run Infiltrators and Oppressive, I don't need skillfull as I have a very high crit chance already (I don't like yellow numbers).
I should grab a wheel, up until now I always used the lantern for the party. What a guy right?
I am going to move some points into action advantage to ensure my daily is 20 seconds or less so I always have combat advantage and extra damage.
Invisible Infiltator is what you should slot instead of opressive darkness, which does a tiny amount of damage and piercing is useless if you have 60% resistance ignored. With II, you get a 20% damage buff. The lantern is okay, but if your party is fully debuffed up (to the 200% limit) the lantern's 8% debuff will do nothing.
Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR She Looked Lvl 18
Id just like to chime in here. *ps4 player* Conserning the "TR's cant get into FBI" I just started running FBI about 3 weeks ago, and I manage to get a run or two in about every night. Yeah, generally they are with a group from my alliance. I've ran with gwf's, gfs, CW's, HR's, and SW's all above or equal to my gear. I've only lost to gwf's and 1 gf that was with that gwf (using coordinated cs). I'm 3500, r12 bondings, orcus set, no armor kits so I could be higher, all r12 radiants etc HR's/few CW's will generally beat me up until the first boss. First boss I catch up, sometimes passing by a couple mil, then I'll once again lose the lead with the aoe, then again pass them up at 2nd and remain ahead because 2-3 is nothing but single target. And usually finish ahead by 30-50m GWF's on the other hand exceed at both single target and aoe. (!Depending on their gear and if they know what they are doing!) gwf's who are equal to me, usually beating me by around 30-50m, while onces who are decked the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out with 4200+ tensor disk etc etc bis everything have beaten me up to 200mil. No other class can do that. Which at that point I slot wicked reminder, swallow my pride, and let that gwf button mash the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of the boss. So really, do TR's need a rework? Or do GWFs. We are on par with all the other classes, we just have to know what we are doing, but I'm assuming so do they. We exceed at single target, CW's/HR's exceed at aoe.
Which is where the problem comes in. Many, many, TRs don't know how to use their damage to the fullest potential. People will see that the majority of TR's aren't good or are trying to run pve with a Pvp build, they'll suck, and it'll make us all look bad. There have been numerous times where people will say damn Sour, your damage is good "for a TR". And while yeah I'm like cool that feels good, it really sucks. Because of the "for a TR". Because most people see them as a terrible class, from past experiences with ones who don't know what they are doing.
First of all, please don't turn this thread into an "nerf class xy" .
And yes you are right @caveck i have heard the sentence "good for an TR" aswell, if i am running some skirmishes like Throne. (And one time a "F*** y** Khira" (my ingame name) from an GWF just before he was ragequitting)
But I think too many people are still to much into #1 Paingiver Charts wich means nothing. Sure it is a good feeling, but thats all. Console players are forgiven bc they can't use tools like ACT.
To the "run ahead of the group to push your Piangiver stats" thing: Yes this could be an option, but don't forget one little thing, the party synergys and the whole buff/debuff abilities from other classes. Personally i often missed the Annoited Army daily from the Dc, bc i was to far ahead, or dodging into an add group, or i was too far behind bc i was changing after an boss fight encounters/dailys with the result, that i was loosing alot of dps meanwhile other classes were full buffed, so it is up to you, if you want to go that way.
My personal Intantion was always, that an Pve Tr is an viable Option, not overpowered but also not overseen, like now. It is kind of frustrating seeing the same people posting every 5 Minutes :"Tr (ilvl), bondings, Pve build, (insert all of his equip, mounts etc...)", and noone cares.
2
demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
I feel rogues are very useful. We have the ability to control mobs with smoke bomb, dazing strike.
Stun mobs before they use area attacks with impact shot
Clear trash mobs with ease...
Battle boss monsters like a boss!
We have amazing mobility, survivability...
I love my rogue. I won't play any other class.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
I agree. Too many people are worried about the paingiver. They'll stand on your body while your on your hands and knees just to get more damage on that chart than you do. It's extremely frustrating. But here's the thing. For ps4- I can't speak for PC or Xbox- people base their team comps on those paingivers. I constantly see people ask specifically for GWFs when they need a dps. My girlfriend runs a mof renegade build, which not a lot of ps4 CW's run let alone know about it. And she's constantly kicked from parties because her dps is low. Many ps4 players are uneducated on variety. They just want cookie cutter "what's the highest dps class, what's the class that's usually the highest on that chart. Trust me, I'm with you. I wish that dumbass chart would disappear. But it's at the point to where you need to be able to get a lot of numbers to get into groups. Unless of course you are running with friends.
1
demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
The remedy to this on pc is the legit channel.. they group up and run all content and never discuss item level or gear score.
If you can run it you are welcome to play it
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
As someone who actively plays 7 classes which range between 2.5k -3.6k IL I can say the TR is the most complicated class to understand and play well. It requires a real understanding of skill combinations and timing as well as choosing the right skills for the current task.
My GWF basically never changes any skills, he doesn't need to. You just need to understand building stacks and the rotation is pretty simple.
My CW switches between aoe and single target and you just need to get your stats right and understand chill stacks to be effective.
My OP (main @ 3.6k) just whales on everything and pops his Daily at the right times - also has mob & boss setups and switches auras depending on the group.
The TR however needs the player to understand the precise function of all skills & feats as well as excellent timing and I think this is where the bad rep comes from. The TR is attractive to new players (ooh stealth!) but unfortunately just copying a good build isn't enough in this case - if you don't push yourself to read up and understand what everything does and how to combine it you'll end up 3rd -5th on the board.
Unfortunately running a bad TR leaves you in a worse situation than running a bad anything else and as others have said, gives the class a bad reputation.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Since when did TR's become so whiney. It takes a bit of effort to learn, If you get outdps'd bye a gwf 4x over you're really doing something wrong. If you would take some time to learn the game mechanics, and try experimenting a bit instead of spending your time whining on forums you would'nt have this problem. If you keep believing that that TR's are worse of than the others, and believe the ish you read from others that don't know what they are talking about, ofcourse you wont improve.
Sure it's harder to get into sva cause of the negative stigma people have, but maybe thats cause so many 4k+ pvp TR's make us look bad going into MSVA, trying to leech the new weapon marks and getting outdps'd by the healers.
this 4k tr = 3k any class is BS as well, dont believe it , learn to make it good, or play something with an easier learning curve.
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
Hey I'm a 4k pvp tr, I use my pvp gear for pve. However, I use the proper pve skills to score major damage while at the same time increasing my teams survivability and damage.
There is nothing wrong with pvp gear doing pve mossions.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
Since when did TR's become so whiney. It takes a bit of effort to learn, If you get outdps'd bye a gwf 4x over you're really doing something wrong. If you would take some time to learn the game mechanics, and try experimenting a bit instead of spending your time whining on forums you would'nt have this problem. If you keep believing that that TR's are worse of than the others, and believe the ish you read from others that don't know what they are talking about, ofcourse you wont improve.
Sure it's harder to get into sva cause of the negative stigma people have, but maybe thats cause so many 4k+ pvp TR's make us look bad going into MSVA, trying to leech the new weapon marks and getting outdps'd by the healers.
this 4k tr = 3k any class is BS as well, dont believe it , learn to make it good, or play something with an easier learning curve.
I don't understand where people are getting this idea that PVE is plagued by an influx of PVP BIS TRS. I hear this talking point from time to time and it never seems to hold much water. The PVP community as a whole is tiny compared to the PVE community. The number of BIS PVP any players let alone specifically BIS TRS is even tinier. While a BISed out PVP player of any class can't outdps most of their decently built PVE kin, they are usually not dead weight. Many BIS PVPers carry other specializations besides damage that can be put to good use and are usually veteran players who understand the basics of what is needed to handle various PVE content. Most BIS PVP players I've seen, me included, keep decent PVE equipment around since keeping their gear and boons up to date often requires them to go on a PVE content spree. Even if most PVPers were dead weight, you are statistically unlikely to get enough pvpers in a single run for it to make a significant impact.
More than likely, the bad reputation of TRs in PVE is primarily coming from a combination of inexperienced TR players and rumors spread by scoreboard chasers who take the Paingiver chart too seriously.
Now with that said, I do in part agree with your first paragraph. I do agree that we are not useless and a lot of the problems TR players have can be amended by simply learning how to better build and play their TR. I will also mention that this class is still far from problem free and the TR class could use some buffs to certain features and are long overdue for a good rework. Try not to confuse whining with pointing out legitimate problems, most of the people on this thread are doing the latter.
Post edited by trgluestickz on
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
This thread... What about FUN? I main a TR because it is fun to play. It challenges you to do what other classes do with ease. I have one of each class and rarely play these alts because they bore me. I wouldn't want the TR to be reworked into a mindless dps machine.
If I would ask one thing for TRs is give us some better aoe effectiveness. The Daze cone shouldn't be so dang small and hard to position. How about some better buff/debuff team support. Something to offset the dps and stand us apart from a GWF or HR. Play a GWF to do silly dmg. Play a HR to do Hdps and give team buffs. Play a TR to...?
To be honest, I am a casual player in the sense that my TR will probably never be BiS. It has Orange weapon artis and r10 bonds, LM set and 3/4 artifacts at Mythic. Most of my enchants are 9s and 10s. I do well in most groups. Sometimes top of charts. If I run with a higher dps, I swap encounters to support and relax. Too old for such nonsense.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
It does seem like there should be a feat that reduces CDs for TR. I wonder if there is a stat that reduces cooldowns. Sure would be nice if we had the ability to get more stealth faster somehow though feats or at-wills or encounters or dailies. LOL
One of the best old set bonuses for TR was the T1 set that reduced encounter cooldowns with your at-will strikes. This would be lovely as a feat. (Ok... there are a number of removed set bonuses that it might be nice to see reworked into feats. Hmmmm.)
Master Duelist was the old T1 set and there was a pre mod 5 feat Flashing? or Dazzling? Blades that reduced encounter cooldowns by using full rotations of at wills.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
Comments
But all kidding/snarkiness aside, LB does seem like it could use a little tweak on the recharge time, considering the current state of the game. It hits so damn hard, but as you say the timing has to be there with the rest of the team, and if you miss that buff window it's a longer time to try again vs. what other classes have to do. Good point.
or you could just roll Sab.
My opinion about TRs is that, all things being equal, in most situations, a GWF can out DPS TRs. That's hardly news right now as GWFs can out DPS pretty much anyone with equal equipment, etc.
That being said, I haven't seen a 3200 il GWF out DPS me in a long time. Not that IL really means that much as some of the biggest buffs aren't even counted. But a typical 3200 IL GWF would have a hard time doing more damage than me in most content. And, I'm not the most skilled TR out there, nor do I have any big guild boons. I can appreciate @sundance777 and his feeling for his TR, but I believe Sunny is overstating his case.
I've personally run FBI with 3 TRs and finished in 25 minutes or so. I wouldn't hesitate to run MSVA with 6 TRs and I bet we'd finish in less than 10 minutes. The question is if TRs are "useless" in PVE. And, the answer is no. Anyone who is running end game content can benefit from a properly built and played TR.
One of the problems TRs are facing is that a lot of TRs believe the class is great in PVP and lousy in PVE. The leads to a bunch of PVP TRs running endgame PVE content. To be fair, an awful lot of PVP players have a hard time in endgame PVE content. But, there are plenty of great PVE TRs out there. If someone is running a MSVA or a FBI and they state at the outset to not bring a TR, frankly, they are an idiot. I can understand NEEDING a certain class. A tank and DC, for sure. After that, adding a TR to the group should not hinder any run you want to do.
There are good and bad players of every class. Right now, the biggest problem I have, honestly, is with picking up GWFs. There are a lot of new players, a lot of players who aren't proficient, and a lot of GWFs who aren't paying attention. This is probably due more to there being just a bunch of them running around right now because it's the FOTM for damage, so you are just more likely to pick one up. However, I would never go so far as to say they were useless.
For lower geared TRs, they should still be able to compete in most content with similarly geared classes. I'm not sure where the idea of a build being only good for BIS TRs came from. Can't get the Orcus? Run Lostmauth, or run without a set and just use equipment that helps your stats. You certainly don't need a 4K mount. I ran a 2k mount until a month ago. But, remember when you are comparing your damage, to take into account that you should compare yourself to other characters with similar gear. None of the equipment you have or your IL will change rotations, or powers, or how feats and skills work.
And, nothing, NOTHING, is stopping you from changing the build up, if you think something works better. But, I'd advise testing it out. You might stumble onto some secret we don't know! Shadow Strike might hit like Lashing Blade, but I don't know, because I have never ever really used it. The more TRs we have testing stuff, the better we will all be off.
I agree that the problem TRs have is the complexity of the rotation along with the length of the cool downs. If we get interrupted, we take a bigger hit to our overall DPS and it takes us way longer to recover to where we are ready to do our rotation again. Our damage output could also use some more umph for the effort we have to put in.
I don't think our biggest problem is survivability. We have stealth, ITC, high deflection severity, a great dodge, etc. TRs just gotta stop playing the class like they are GWFs...
She Looked Lvl 18
Here is my Blog
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
So last night we sat down and really studied the WK - me and one of my friends who decided to respec from MI to WK just to see what I was trying to explain. Perhaps you can fill in the missing puzzle piece.
The WK is clearly meant to be a ranged dagger throwing DOT character. However - when we all set up that way and spend a few hours on the practice dummies (and killing things in the stronghold) though it was fun -we weren't able to make the damage of the WK match up to the MI. Is there something about the WK that we are missing? Since we are on PS4 we don't have access to all of the neat tools you guys have or we'd be on them. I see a lot of attacks and feats that individually do the same or similar damage to MI attacks - but there doesn't seem to be the link we need to make it all role into a killing machine.
Is that why I'm the only WK I've ever seen? Lol
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
IMO, at lower gear levels TRs have an advantage. It's the point where a rogue can use the stealth to ensure critical strike one the important hits, while not investing a lot of stats into crit. Other classes, even GWFs can't do this.
It's later when everyone invest the 15k+ stats into crit and get to 100% crit chance (or close) TR scale much worse. While other classes like GWF for example don't have a class mechanic (unstoppable) that compete with any of their stats, on the contrary it has full synergy, press tab and you get more out of your crit chance, severity and power, because you get more attack speed.
While TR press tab and looses all the effectiveness of the crit stat.
So this bring me to the point, at lower gear levels (mainly critical chance wise) the rotation should invest in more sustained damage, and getting more critical out of stealth.
So IMO:
1. No shadowborn, not enough base power to make it worth.
2. Arterial Cut. - We try to do more things in stealth / our big hits, so we get more from this.
3. Dying breath, Deathkneel, Last moments. Without shadowborn it's possible to feat those and back ally and this will give a mix of better mob killing with dying breath and regular boss damage with te other two.
Now the bigger difference, rotation: We try to get the most out of stealth and usually the party is also weeker so we need less burst but more damage. So we can DF ( late stealth), get some of it from stealth and then encounter (from stealth too). Something like smoke->DF(late stealth)->lashing / dazing.
This way with correct timing, even with 0 crit chance, we always get the important parts in crit, the flurry bleed, and part of flurry damage. And at least one encounter, preferably the bigger hitting one like lashing, to get the most out of it.
As opposed to BiS, we have different 'mentality', we have almost 100% crit chance from stats, so steath plays much less significant part in this.
(And this is the class issue) So we use stealth as a trigger for other things, or a sequence initiator.
Here we can use Shadowborn, and Grim Pleasure (I persoanly put 2 points in Dying breath, and 3 in Deathkneel, because I like Dying breath)
Now it's possible to use a more burst / trigger oriented rotation:
Stealth->Dazing / lashing ->.... daily / DF...
No DF late stealth from the start.
This is to get the maximum out of shadowborn, activate SoD at the start, and set grimm pleasure for the further stuff. In essence no longer holding out the stealth for critical at the right moment, but using maximum burst at the start)
This is how I see it, ofc. I hope I've managed to explain it clear enough.
PS:
There was another thread with sugestions that probably long lost in the abyss of the forums, but imo one of the easier changes to TR is just to make DF bleed stacks not random, but a flurry gives all 10 stacks in one go.
And specific change to exe is shadowborn affects only encounter activation. And not bleed / smoke instances.
Other things like SoD and so on are more complex, but those two are imo, fast and easy and make the class (exe path) better in minimal change.
Here is a recent screen and probably the last straw for me and my TR: http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/Suns Tip/screenshot/5524350
The GWF in this was around 3.3 - 3.4K IL at the time while I was 4K. This gwf was not playing a rotation like some of the elite GWF's I know, the GWF's that know the correct rotation would out dps this GWF by 25-30% minimum. I don't seem to have any screens of these guys handy.
I did 'catch up' a bit on the boss fight in that run but I grew tired of hearing pretty good for a TR and now my half built GWF that I hardly know how to play is the top of these boards above my protege TR who also runs my build and is 4K.
I will likely go back to my TR as I love it, and I am tempted to move stuff back and play with i more tonight (thanks for the inspiration) but my point is, I feel that there are some simple class mechanics in the GWF that make it the top melee damage in everything other than maybe a solo boss fight, that the TR can not overcome and hence my interest in this post about getting the TR up a little on the damage output.
OP - Sunshine: 16000 IL
Casual Dailies
I was also thinking a long time it isn't worth to have combat advantage, but then i noticed also high geared Trs are using it in PvE and then i took an look for the offhand bonus.
You deal 20 seconds 5% (is that right?) more damage. (If the german translation is not misleading again)
20 seconds could be a long time.
I had also some thoughts, if the classfeature combination "Infiltrators Action" and "Invisible Infiltrator" is the best or (just theorycrafting by myself) why not give an try to the combination:
"Infiltrators Action" and "Tactic".
Could it be that these two classfeatures give us more dps, faster daily ready, more benefits from "IA" sure we have eventually to sacrifice "Black Alley Tactic" but then we could eventually max out Grim Pleasure and Vicious Pursuit or Shady Preperation to lower our high cooldowns.
Feel free to discuss
She Looked Lvl 18
Here is my Blog
She Looked Lvl 18
Here is my Blog
You have range and VP teleporting, maybe put some feats into DHS to get that debuff/extra damage going. Where MIs will admittedly have a trickier time keeping effective sustained DPS on the boss that moves frequently, WKs might reveal their strength. I would also experiment with other less orthodox encounters instead of the same old - same old, as Jimbo said. Try stuff out.
But honestly, if you are getting close to matching a GWF in total damage while doing single target vs. his massive AoE striking ability, maybe the TRs DO need a nerf.
Good Lord, think of how hard you must be hitting to keep up -- hitting 1 thing at a time vs. him hitting 4-5 at a time.
I will tell you this. If you dont find yourself using lurkers assualt during fights with mobs, you're doing something wrong. Are you seeing your lashing blade hit above a mil while moving through dungeons? Is your dazing strike hitting groups for hundreds of thousands? It should be.
Gwfs have got to be the absolute top tier to beat my tr. Most cannot. I have darks slotted in my utility slots lol. Good luck trying to outrun me in dungeons, use all your stamina then be worthless when we actually get to the fight.
Important question. Are you using the wheel of elements and the orcus set? You should be.
Of course, you run the risk of being labeled a gloryhounding HAMSTER as you earn well-deserved eyerolls and derision from the rest of your team (who are not impressed), but you gotta take the good with the bad I suppose.
She Looked Lvl 18
Here is my Blog
I run Infiltrators and Oppressive, I don't need skillfull as I have a very high crit chance already (I don't like yellow numbers).
I should grab a wheel, up until now I always used the lantern for the party. What a guy right?
I am going to move some points into action advantage to ensure my daily is 20 seconds or less so I always have combat advantage and extra damage.
OP - Sunshine: 16000 IL
Casual Dailies
She Looked Lvl 18
Here is my Blog
Conserning the "TR's cant get into FBI"
I just started running FBI about 3 weeks ago, and I manage to get a run or two in about every night. Yeah, generally they are with a group from my alliance.
I've ran with gwf's, gfs, CW's, HR's, and SW's all above or equal to my gear.
I've only lost to gwf's and 1 gf that was with that gwf (using coordinated cs).
I'm 3500, r12 bondings, orcus set, no armor kits so I could be higher, all r12 radiants etc
HR's/few CW's will generally beat me up until the first boss.
First boss I catch up, sometimes passing by a couple mil, then I'll once again lose the lead with the aoe, then again pass them up at 2nd and remain ahead because 2-3 is nothing but single target. And usually finish ahead by 30-50m
GWF's on the other hand exceed at both single target and aoe. (!Depending on their gear and if they know what they are doing!) gwf's who are equal to me, usually beating me by around 30-50m, while onces who are decked the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out with 4200+ tensor disk etc etc bis everything have beaten me up to 200mil. No other class can do that. Which at that point I slot wicked reminder, swallow my pride, and let that gwf button mash the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of the boss. So really, do TR's need a rework? Or do GWFs. We are on par with all the other classes, we just have to know what we are doing, but I'm assuming so do they. We exceed at single target, CW's/HR's exceed at aoe.
Which is where the problem comes in. Many, many, TRs don't know how to use their damage to the fullest potential. People will see that the majority of TR's aren't good or are trying to run pve with a Pvp build, they'll suck, and it'll make us all look bad.
There have been numerous times where people will say damn Sour, your damage is good "for a TR". And while yeah I'm like cool that feels good, it really sucks. Because of the "for a TR". Because most people see them as a terrible class, from past experiences with ones who don't know what they are doing.
And yes you are right @caveck i have heard the sentence "good for an TR" aswell, if i am running some skirmishes like Throne.
(And one time a "F*** y** Khira" (my ingame name) from an GWF just before he was ragequitting)
But I think too many people are still to much into #1 Paingiver Charts wich means nothing. Sure it is a good feeling, but thats all. Console players are forgiven bc they can't use tools like ACT.
To the "run ahead of the group to push your Piangiver stats" thing:
Yes this could be an option, but don't forget one little thing, the party synergys and the whole buff/debuff abilities from other classes.
Personally i often missed the Annoited Army daily from the Dc, bc i was to far ahead, or dodging into an add group, or i was too far behind bc i was changing after an boss fight encounters/dailys with the result, that i was loosing alot of dps meanwhile other classes were full buffed, so it is up to you, if you want to go that way.
My personal Intantion was always, that an Pve Tr is an viable Option, not overpowered but also not overseen, like now.
It is kind of frustrating seeing the same people posting every 5 Minutes :"Tr (ilvl), bondings, Pve build, (insert all of his equip, mounts etc...)", and noone cares.
We have the ability to control mobs with smoke bomb, dazing strike.
Stun mobs before they use area attacks with impact shot
Clear trash mobs with ease...
Battle boss monsters like a boss!
We have amazing mobility, survivability...
I love my rogue. I won't play any other class.
For ps4- I can't speak for PC or Xbox- people base their team comps on those paingivers. I constantly see people ask specifically for GWFs when they need a dps. My girlfriend runs a mof renegade build, which not a lot of ps4 CW's run let alone know about it. And she's constantly kicked from parties because her dps is low. Many ps4 players are uneducated on variety. They just want cookie cutter "what's the highest dps class, what's the class that's usually the highest on that chart. Trust me, I'm with you. I wish that dumbass chart would disappear. But it's at the point to where you need to be able to get a lot of numbers to get into groups. Unless of course you are running with friends.
If you can run it you are welcome to play it
My GWF basically never changes any skills, he doesn't need to. You just need to understand building stacks and the rotation is pretty simple.
My CW switches between aoe and single target and you just need to get your stats right and understand chill stacks to be effective.
My OP (main @ 3.6k) just whales on everything and pops his Daily at the right times - also has mob & boss setups and switches auras depending on the group.
The TR however needs the player to understand the precise function of all skills & feats as well as excellent timing and I think this is where the bad rep comes from. The TR is attractive to new players (ooh stealth!) but unfortunately just copying a good build isn't enough in this case - if you don't push yourself to read up and understand what everything does and how to combine it you'll end up 3rd -5th on the board.
Unfortunately running a bad TR leaves you in a worse situation than running a bad anything else and as others have said, gives the class a bad reputation.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Sure it's harder to get into sva cause of the negative stigma people have, but maybe thats cause so many 4k+ pvp TR's make us look bad going into MSVA, trying to leech the new weapon marks and getting outdps'd by the healers.
this 4k tr = 3k any class is BS as well, dont believe it , learn to make it good, or play something with an easier learning curve.
There is nothing wrong with pvp gear doing pve mossions.
More than likely, the bad reputation of TRs in PVE is primarily coming from a combination of inexperienced TR players and rumors spread by scoreboard chasers who take the Paingiver chart too seriously.
Now with that said, I do in part agree with your first paragraph. I do agree that we are not useless and a lot of the problems TR players have can be amended by simply learning how to better build and play their TR. I will also mention that this class is still far from problem free and the TR class could use some buffs to certain features and are long overdue for a good rework. Try not to confuse whining with pointing out legitimate problems, most of the people on this thread are doing the latter.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
If I would ask one thing for TRs is give us some better aoe effectiveness. The Daze cone shouldn't be so dang small and hard to position. How about some better buff/debuff team support. Something to offset the dps and stand us apart from a GWF or HR. Play a GWF to do silly dmg. Play a HR to do Hdps and give team buffs. Play a TR to...?
To be honest, I am a casual player in the sense that my TR will probably never be BiS. It has Orange weapon artis and r10 bonds, LM set and 3/4 artifacts at Mythic. Most of my enchants are 9s and 10s. I do well in most groups. Sometimes top of charts. If I run with a higher dps, I swap encounters to support and relax. Too old for such nonsense.
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