A player has to have a very good understanding of the class to be competitive - unlike a lot of other dps classes.
So you think playing a TR is more difficult than for example a CW? Sry, but you dont need to be a rocket scientist to play in NW. No matter which class. Good TRs are like every other good class: At the end its the player who sits in front of the monitor and presses the buttons. If this player is good and knows what he is doing, he can play every class very well. I know some good TRs and we got 2 TRs in our guild and they are making a hell good DPS. But they dont think TRs is mor complicated to play than other classes.
Do you play a TR and a CW? I do. The mechanics on a CW are far simpler and precise timing is not nearly so much an issue. 'Stack your Chills and smack the target' is far easier than 'stack bleeding & know when to switch at-will, time ITC, time stealth for maxed SoD, time Daily etc'.
I play 7 classes ranging between 3.7k - 2.5k and I can state without any hesitation that the TR is the hardest class to master. Unless you have played multiple classes in T2 content your opinion is at best uninformed.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
I play 7 classes ranging between 3.7k - 2.5k and I can state without any hesitation that the TR is the hardest class to master. Unless you have played multiple classes in T2 content your opinion is at best uninformed.
GWF 4,3k GS main. Alts: CW, TR ( was my first class i made in NW ^^), DC, OP, GF, HR, never played a SW cuzz this class was buggy from the beginning. All alts beetween 2,6k -3,7k. Ofc i change my enchants from my main to my twinks when i wann play them. But i played with all my alts thru the game incl. FBI/Svardborg. Maybe you can gimme a hint what else i should do to be "informed"? You can PN me. Nvm.
I play 7 classes ranging between 3.7k - 2.5k and I can state without any hesitation that the TR is the hardest class to master. Unless you have played multiple classes in T2 content your opinion is at best uninformed.
GWF 4,3k GS main. Alts: CW, TR ( was my first class i made in NW ^^), DC, OP, GF, HR, never played a SW cuzz this class was buggy from the beginning. All alts beetween 2,6k -3,7k. Ofc i change my enchants from my main to my twinks when i wann play them. But i played with all my alts thru the game incl. FBI/Svardborg. Maybe you can gimme a hint what else i should do to be "informed"? You can PN me. Nvm.
P.S.: I play PC since beta. Just let you know.
Then I am very surprised at your previous comment. How far did you take your TR? How well did you do in T2 content? Why did you stop playing it and roll a GWF? What we are talking about is running a TR well, not just having a TR.
The class can (as we've both said) compete well in high level content but the number of players that do badly at it compared to other classes is both significant and so obvious that many groups actually refuse to take TRs. (I remember one occasion where a GWF suggested we 'ditch the TR and get a proper DPS').
If the situation was as you suggested - a simple matter of pressing buttons and everyone does the same output then this discussion wouldn't even exist, let alone the bias shown by other players in-game.
You've said that high level TR's in your guild put out significant dps and yet I'd be very surprised if you hadn't also noticed that most do not keep up. You've blamed this on players being 'bad' but unless we have a situation where 'bad' players only roll TRs then that comment just doesn't make any sense.
Surely you must appreciate that something else is at work other than "only nooobs play Rogues..." and I'm sure many of the better TR players here will confirm my statement that it is down to understanding the right timing of a multitude of factors. Having the 'right' build is not enough by itself. We are not talking about GWF's who simply get their destroyer stacks up, rotate through encounters and find themselves at the top of the chart.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
I only skimmed this thread, but it seems noone mentioned this yet: TRs have debuffs at their disposal, that amplify the damage dealt by all party members: wicked reminder at full 3 stacks makes the target take 21% more damage, and the debuff from the 4th strike of sly flourish makes the target take another 10% more(yes, I know the tooltip says its 5% but it has been tested by ppl I consider trustworthy). While wicked reminder has a sufficiently long duration, so I consider it a good power even at higher ILs and it comes with the advantage of always haveing an encounter off cooldown to refresh shadow of demise as an executioner, ime sly flourish needs to be spammed to keep the debuff up, so I´d only recommend it for TRs whos own dmg is too low to contribute as a dps compared to the other dps party members. TRs also have nice control powers, that don´t send the mobs flying.
The debuffs at a GWFs disposal on the other hand, 8% from mark(don´t stack with other marks iirc) aside, only help the GWF himself...
For more information, look for the debuff guide in the guides section iirc.
I recommend modifying your TR a bit. Go with a bit more personal DPS and less on the group debuffing/buffing. Pugging will be easier.
I tried full on CW buff and was kicked. I fixed it to be a bit more personal DPS and I have not been kicked and my damage has improved greatly.
A 50% personal DPS and 50% group player to buff/debuff will produce about only 50% of the damage of an equally geared full on DPS. However, going 80% personal and 20% group buff/debuff you will produce more damage and still help the group on the tough fights.
One thing I noticed, the better damage each player can produce, the quicker dungeons runs will be for all.
What I have been trying to figure out is: If you have a TR, SW, CW and HR all at the same item level, all playing with mid level skill - do they come out roughly equal in damage.
You really can't compare any of the other DPS classes to the GWF because GWFs are clearly not equal in the ease it takes to make/play a good one. (Not that there aren't GREAT ones out there - I run with one).
It feels like a poor player can do tolerable damage on a GWF - where as the other classes take skill to achieve the same level, and the TR perhaps takes the most skill of all. It's possible that the SW or CW requires equal since mine are not to 70 yet, but from the classes I play - the TR takes the best timing, knowledge, build and gear to do a tolerable job in a dungeon.
Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold" Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
The other thing that TRs suffer considerably on, is that many of the more popular classes have very thorough testers and detailed information available regarding feats/powers/equipment, etc. Information beyond "I like this it works for me because deeps", is hard to find. So, it's kinds of a free for all with many people running builds and rotations they "feel" works well. There is nothing wrong with that, but it means there are a lot of TRs out there not quantitatively optimized for damage.
And, @armadeonx is correct in that, if TRs aren't optimized and hit their rotations exactly right, they will lag behind easier classes to play. This, I believe, has more to do with the length of the TR cool downs. If a CW misses their rotation slightly, their powers come back much faster and so, they recover from a mistake or interruption much more easily. Same for other classes.
I think TRs, perhaps, also suffer from a where it has been said that they are terrible in PVE so much, that there just aren't that many dedicated PVE TRs when compared to other classes.
Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR She Looked Lvl 18
The other thing that TRs suffer considerably on, is that many of the more popular classes have very thorough testers and detailed information available regarding feats/powers/equipment, etc. Information beyond "I like this it works for me because deeps", is hard to find. So, it's kinds of a free for all with many people running builds and rotations they "feel" works well. There is nothing wrong with that, but it means there are a lot of TRs out there not quantitatively optimized for damage.
And, @armadeonx is correct in that, if TRs aren't optimized and hit their rotations exactly right, they will lag behind easier classes to play. This, I believe, has more to do with the length of the TR cool downs. If a CW misses their rotation slightly, their powers come back much faster and so, they recover from a mistake or interruption much more easily. Same for other classes.
I think TRs, perhaps, also suffer from a where it has been said that they are terrible in PVE so much, that there just aren't that many dedicated PVE TRs when compared to other classes.
Forgive my lack of knowledge in in-depth theorycrafting, but I'm wondering if experimenting with recovery/ap gain (from various sources like trying enchantments, certain mounts, companions etc) would lower cool downs on encounters/more chance for dailies (i.e. more dazing strike, lashing blade, whirlwind of blades), dish out more dps overall? Or would that hinder us in some way? Oh what am I saying? Why don't I just try it out on the preview server?
When I run with my friend on his monster cleric - I get massive recovery/ap gain from him. It does let me use my skills all the time, however everyone else has the same buff so my GWF friend steps up his damage just as much.
Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold" Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
The other thing that TRs suffer considerably on, is that many of the more popular classes have very thorough testers and detailed information available regarding feats/powers/equipment, etc. Information beyond "I like this it works for me because deeps", is hard to find. So, it's kinds of a free for all with many people running builds and rotations they "feel" works well. There is nothing wrong with that, but it means there are a lot of TRs out there not quantitatively optimized for damage.
And, @armadeonx is correct in that, if TRs aren't optimized and hit their rotations exactly right, they will lag behind easier classes to play. This, I believe, has more to do with the length of the TR cool downs. If a CW misses their rotation slightly, their powers come back much faster and so, they recover from a mistake or interruption much more easily. Same for other classes.
I think TRs, perhaps, also suffer from a where it has been said that they are terrible in PVE so much, that there just aren't that many dedicated PVE TRs when compared to other classes.
Forgive my lack of knowledge in in-depth theorycrafting, but I'm wondering if experimenting with recovery/ap gain (from various sources like trying enchantments, certain mounts, companions etc) would lower cool downs on encounters/more chance for dailies (i.e. more dazing strike, lashing blade, whirlwind of blades), dish out more dps overall? Or would that hinder us in some way? Oh what am I saying? Why don't I just try it out on the preview server?
It should work. The more encounters used for some classes the more damage you do. For instance GF, more recovery = more ITF and more ITF = more damage for GF and the group.
I know for a CW, encounters are the bread and butter of their damage, therefore more recovery helps you don't use the feat Twisting Spell I believe, which I don't. So recovery is needed in my build but not in others due to a feat. My DC is loaded up on recovery as is my GF. I personally like quicker use of encounters for healing, tanking, and even as a controller/DPS.
The other thing that TRs suffer considerably on, is that many of the more popular classes have very thorough testers and detailed information available regarding feats/powers/equipment, etc. Information beyond "I like this it works for me because deeps", is hard to find. So, it's kinds of a free for all with many people running builds and rotations they "feel" works well. There is nothing wrong with that, but it means there are a lot of TRs out there not quantitatively optimized for damage.
And, @armadeonx is correct in that, if TRs aren't optimized and hit their rotations exactly right, they will lag behind easier classes to play. This, I believe, has more to do with the length of the TR cool downs. If a CW misses their rotation slightly, their powers come back much faster and so, they recover from a mistake or interruption much more easily. Same for other classes.
I think TRs, perhaps, also suffer from a where it has been said that they are terrible in PVE so much, that there just aren't that many dedicated PVE TRs when compared to other classes.
Forgive my lack of knowledge in in-depth theorycrafting, but I'm wondering if experimenting with recovery/ap gain (from various sources like trying enchantments, certain mounts, companions etc) would lower cool downs on encounters/more chance for dailies (i.e. more dazing strike, lashing blade, whirlwind of blades), dish out more dps overall? Or would that hinder us in some way? Oh what am I saying? Why don't I just try it out on the preview server?
Try it out! Personally, I think there is an optimal recovery to power to crit ration out there. What's working for me is crit to about 90%, recovery to about 9000 and power as high as you can get it from there. Let the TRs in the class forum know what you find out!
Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR She Looked Lvl 18
Thanks for your input guys and encouragement sirjimbo (and the build, it's a heck of a lot of fun to play), I can't promise I'll report accurately well... my math sucks to be honest lol but will try my best. To keep the thread on topic, I too would like to see more difficulty in certain encounters where the TR can be even more versatile, I really love the crowd control and timing of skills for the TR and helping the group as well as dps, would gladly concede no.1 paingiver spot to the GWF
"What makes TR's bad" is the complexity of how the class works, like already mentioned lack of dedicated testers and long time needed to recover from a mistake. Simply there is so much that can go wrong and send your dps downwards. I dont think its the lenght of our cooldowns, that can be done with enough recovery but just having encounters ready all the time would mess up our rotations, simply not needed having too high recovery except around 10k for cooldowns to be just right.
Complexity of the class, there are many things that we dont know how they work. Are the bleeds separated for each tr or all share the same stack on 1 target? SoD credits go only to one tr? How to make bleeds crit? ...
Biggest problem is recovering from a mistake. If we dont manage to proc SoD we have to wait for stealth to refill, takes time. If we proc SoD when we didnt want it, again takes time for it to end to proc it anew. Then there is Shadowborn feat, applying it to desired encounter is rocket science lol. It can be wasted on bleed tick, atwill hit or smoke bomb tick. Having it all go our way is quite hard and thats where we lose dps. There are TR's who can time it all and hats off to those who do it.
That is one of the reasons i am trying to switch my radiant and azure enchants for Blackice enchants. I also changed my mount power from 2k power or 2k crit to an ap gain back after using a daily (thanks to the winterevent).
But there is still the complexity of our class mechanik, even if we are able to lower down the cooldowns of our encounters, without stealth ready... Even you spidey could see the different between an 60k dazing strike against an stealthed 600k dazing (for example).
So an Gwf sure needs his stacks up, needs unstoppable (without bug), for the best dps An Cw needs his chill stacks up most the time very easy. An Hr Trapper is often able to rotate between 6 encounters without an interruption. And yeah....SW is pressing 3 times tab ore one time in an boss fight and there he goes.
Can't speak for Gf and Op and my Dc is more an buff/debuff boat.
So wich class "suffers" most from the complexity? In my opinion it is still the TR even if i am playing also from open beta, and i know i am not -D- or GotenGoku if these are the two Tr you have mentioned before.
So my small hope is still an rework of the class in the nearby future and that the devs take a look not on the core dps (wich is more or less ok in my opinion), but they take an eye of the mechanik, meanwhile ancient cooldowns and so one.
And maybe that will make pvp oriented Rogues think about it to change their build from the cheap first strike/SE combo people often complaining about, to something different.
And also make rogues to an viable option in PvE instead bring one more Cw, Sw or Gwf into the party.
Then I am very surprised at your previous comment. How far did you take your TR? How well did you do in T2 content? Why did you stop playing it and roll a GWF? What we are talking about is running a TR well, not just having a TR.
The class can (as we've both said) compete well in high level content but the number of players that do badly at it compared to other classes is both significant and so obvious that many groups actually refuse to take TRs. (I remember one occasion where a GWF suggested we 'ditch the TR and get a proper DPS').
If the situation was as you suggested - a simple matter of pressing buttons and everyone does the same output then this discussion wouldn't even exist, let alone the bias shown by other players in-game.
You've said that high level TR's in your guild put out significant dps and yet I'd be very surprised if you hadn't also noticed that most do not keep up. You've blamed this on players being 'bad' but unless we have a situation where 'bad' players only roll TRs then that comment just doesn't make any sense.
Surely you must appreciate that something else is at work other than "only nooobs play Rogues..." and I'm sure many of the better TR players here will confirm my statement that it is down to understanding the right timing of a multitude of factors. Having the 'right' build is not enough by itself. We are not talking about GWF's who simply get their destroyer stacks up, rotate through encounters and find themselves at the top of the chart.
This whole wall of text only because i said " You dont need to be a rocket scientist to play a TR" and " its the player in front of the monitor"? Sry...but i think you are over reacting a little bit.
And also make rogues to an viable option in PvE instead bring one more Cw, Sw or Gwf into the party.
Why do you think TRs got a lot nerfs? Cuzz so many ppl complained about TRs in PVP. Devs cant fix any skills only for PVP. They fixed PVP and almost destroyed the TRs. That was the reason why i stopped playing a TR. But they made some reworks on TR and as you can see in the FBI Duo run, its possible to deal huge DPS. Ofc you cant compare a BIS TR with an "usual" TR. But thats not the point. The point is: Is a TR a usefull class? My opinion? YES. Good TRs can make a dungoen smoother and faster. But as long we have our mimimimi majority in PVP whining about TRs you will never get a really good rework on this class.
Our problem is the complexity of the class and lack of mechanics knowledge. There is so much that can go wrong and when it does it takes long to recover from that mistake and thats where our dps goes downwards. Like Talon said lowering cooldowns too much is probably a wasted stat investment since it takes time for stealth to recharge, recovery is nice around 10k for cooldowns to be just fine. Mistakes in rotations are what costs us dps. If we fail to proc SoD we must wait to proc it again, if we proc it when we dont want we must wait again for it to finish to proc it anew. Applying Shadowborn to desired encounter is tricky, it can be wasted on bleed tick, atwill hit, smoke bomb tick. All tr's share same stack of bleeds or its independent for every tr present? SoD credits going just to one tr? How do we ensure bleeds to crit? ... Our bleeds dont get the scaled dmg boost from Orcus set as the target hp gets lower (if we stack bleeds at 99% of targets hp boost will be 2% even when target gets to 10% hp). Its hard to make it all go the right way but there are tr's who perform extremely well and hats off to such reflexes and timings.
You know, I'm thinking a big part of the issue is simply how stealth recharges. Good recovery will get encounters & Dailies back fast enough but I think I'm right that it doesn't affect stealth?
Other class mechanics rely on either taking damage, dealing damage or stamina. Stealth however relies on 'not' taking damage which can mean rolling around avoiding being hit (and thus not contributing to damage) until stealth is back up. I can see how that's fine for a Sab build but Sab also comes with extra stealth generating feats.
Executioner is about being in the middle of the fight as much as possible, I'm thinking of a mechanic that causes faster stealth regen whilst dealing damage or perhaps allowing stealth recharge to be unaffected by incoming damage?
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
well spidey even hax (the tr in the vid) who i consider one of the better TRs is dealing considerably less dmg then some of the cws/gwf/sw/gfs i know. the devs should show the trs some love
well spidey even hax (the tr in the vid) who i consider one of the better TRs is dealing considerably less dmg then some of the cws/gwf/sw/gfs i know. the devs should show the trs some love
Hax rekt my GF's DPS when Sharp took me to eSP on preview.
And Quilla, of whom Sharp got me to run with, rekt both my Conqueror GF and Issac's HR. Quilla beat our COMBINED DPS. In FBI. Before the weapon enchant change.
I have no clue how he did it, but serious props to the TRs like Hax, Quilla, and Thorina (is he even around? I liked his TR work) who can do extremely well with a class who is at somewhat of a disadvantage.
To add to the original post... the way I see the TR is this:
Can they do good damage?
Totally.
But for the effort invested?
Unless you just love the TR playstyle, you could probably invest the same amount of time, skill, and gear into something like a Destro GWF or Fury SW and pump out loads more damage.
Exactly this what @rjc9000 said. I dont know about Haxxi, never saw him around much except we ran CN once together and i saw paingiver screenshots of the runs where he was in and he did quite good, Thorina was very good but i dont think he is around anymore. The numbers Quilla is doing is just insane, i spoke with him and compared our TR's and i got no idea what makes him perform so good. Only difference is he has legendary mount(s) and i dont but that cant be the reason for such dps gap, unless he has some different build but i doubt that. For some reason i perform very bad in SKT content but still he does more than twice my dps in fbi, easily. I dont know how he would compete with other top players of each dps class but i guess its very close. Capable class but obviously a lot more effort is needed to make it perform good. Except getting legendary mount(s) i dont know what else i can do lol, except going into preview and test day n night.
well spidey even hax (the tr in the vid) who i consider one of the better TRs is dealing considerably less dmg then some of the cws/gwf/sw/gfs i know. the devs should show the trs some love
Hax rekt my GF's DPS when Sharp took me to eSP on preview.
And Quilla, of whom Sharp got me to run with, rekt both my Conqueror GF and Issac's HR. Quilla beat our COMBINED DPS. In FBI. Before the weapon enchant change.
I have no clue how he did it, but serious props to the TRs like Hax, Quilla, and Thorina (is he even around? I liked his TR work) who can do extremely well with a class who is at somewhat of a disadvantage.
To add to the original post... the way I see the TR is this:
Can they do good damage?
Totally.
But for the effort invested?
Unless you just love the TR playstyle, you could probably invest the same amount of time, skill, and gear into something like a Destro GWF or Fury SW and pump out loads more damage.
.
yes i know these TRs who deal insane amounts of dmg. And im always impressed when i see them. But then i look at wicked for example (looking at u 42 mio IBS hit) or freya and there is still a difference. TR can do extremly well but i wouldnt mind seeing them buffed a bit. (atleast so its a bit easier for the average tr)
My main is TR, and my build is like nothing I've seen in any guide. I've tried all the guides, and moved from there. They were good, but I dont think as good with what ive come up with. Its a single target destroyer.
I beat good tr at my IL and greater. I've even beat a fare share of GWF at my level. I don't have r12 bindings, and maybe half my enchants to 12... Of coarse, the bis dps classes beat me in sva, but not by rediculas amount. Im usually 2nd or 3rd.
After this next 2x refinement, if all goes how I think it will, ill write a guide.
2 things about Damage boards to consider. One being burst vs DoT, and the other being who can get to the mobs first. If you have great burst damage in a party vs a TR, the TR will do significantly less damage. When it comes to rushing ahead to mobs to secure that you're the first to start your rotation, the TR will most often fall on their faces if they make a mistake when rushing ahead.
Fingers crossed but I'm hoping that with the nerf to AA that it will tilt the balance of glass cannon DPS with tank classes that run buff builds and not tank builds back to a more party mitigation buffs with real tanks that hold aggro and dps classes that are willing to stack DR instead of Lifesteal. The burst damage will come down and the mobs will live long enough to see the DoT classes get the full advantage of all those ticks. I know a few really good TRs that rival the top DPS and it's literally a matter of a few extra seconds per mob or on a boss and they would have won the DPS race. In a perfect world the tank would run in first and aggro the mob, followed by a GWF using Daring Shout to mark them, followed by the TR to smoke or Dazing to CC them, all others start buffing, then the DPS rotations start. Sadly the game has turned into burst damage hiding behind AA to buff power through the roof and god mode the hits. No defense, no cc, no aggro control, no heals... Good luck getting the community to un-HAMSTER their builds and game play.
Let's see where TRs sit in DPS after the DC changes.
But to be honest, we aren't the best "High Single Target/Boss Killer" Class or "high aoe dps class" like in Mod 5 anymore, not as long other dps classes could bring on the same/or more dps in half the time we have to wait for stealth or CD from encounters.
Mmmm Mod 5. The glory days.
Super Saiyan God- TR Lvl 70 (PVP) Unleash The Wolves- HR Lvl 70 (PVE) <font color="Aquamarine">"Non-Pay-To-Win"</font> I hunt GWF "Magik" on sight.
Comments
I play 7 classes ranging between 3.7k - 2.5k and I can state without any hesitation that the TR is the hardest class to master. Unless you have played multiple classes in T2 content your opinion is at best uninformed.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Ofc i change my enchants from my main to my twinks when i wann play them. But i played with all my alts thru the game incl. FBI/Svardborg.
Maybe you can gimme a hint what else i should do to be "informed"? You can PN me. Nvm.
P.S.: I play PC since beta. Just let you know.
The class can (as we've both said) compete well in high level content but the number of players that do badly at it compared to other classes is both significant and so obvious that many groups actually refuse to take TRs. (I remember one occasion where a GWF suggested we 'ditch the TR and get a proper DPS').
If the situation was as you suggested - a simple matter of pressing buttons and everyone does the same output then this discussion wouldn't even exist, let alone the bias shown by other players in-game.
You've said that high level TR's in your guild put out significant dps and yet I'd be very surprised if you hadn't also noticed that most do not keep up. You've blamed this on players being 'bad' but unless we have a situation where 'bad' players only roll TRs then that comment just doesn't make any sense.
Surely you must appreciate that something else is at work other than "only nooobs play Rogues..." and I'm sure many of the better TR players here will confirm my statement that it is down to understanding the right timing of a multitude of factors. Having the 'right' build is not enough by itself. We are not talking about GWF's who simply get their destroyer stacks up, rotate through encounters and find themselves at the top of the chart.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
If you have a TR, SW, CW and HR all at the same item level, all playing with mid level skill - do they come out roughly equal in damage.
You really can't compare any of the other DPS classes to the GWF because GWFs are clearly not equal in the ease it takes to make/play a good one. (Not that there aren't GREAT ones out there - I run with one).
It feels like a poor player can do tolerable damage on a GWF - where as the other classes take skill to achieve the same level, and the TR perhaps takes the most skill of all. It's possible that the SW or CW requires equal since mine are not to 70 yet, but from the classes I play - the TR takes the best timing, knowledge, build and gear to do a tolerable job in a dungeon.
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
And, @armadeonx is correct in that, if TRs aren't optimized and hit their rotations exactly right, they will lag behind easier classes to play. This, I believe, has more to do with the length of the TR cool downs. If a CW misses their rotation slightly, their powers come back much faster and so, they recover from a mistake or interruption much more easily. Same for other classes.
I think TRs, perhaps, also suffer from a where it has been said that they are terrible in PVE so much, that there just aren't that many dedicated PVE TRs when compared to other classes.
She Looked Lvl 18
Here is my Blog
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
I know for a CW, encounters are the bread and butter of their damage, therefore more recovery helps you don't use the feat Twisting Spell I believe, which I don't. So recovery is needed in my build but not in others due to a feat. My DC is loaded up on recovery as is my GF. I personally like quicker use of encounters for healing, tanking, and even as a controller/DPS.
She Looked Lvl 18
Here is my Blog
I dont think its the lenght of our cooldowns, that can be done with enough recovery but just having encounters ready all the time would mess up our rotations, simply not needed having too high recovery except around 10k for cooldowns to be just right.
Complexity of the class, there are many things that we dont know how they work. Are the bleeds separated for each tr or all share the same stack on 1 target? SoD credits go only to one tr? How to make bleeds crit? ...
Biggest problem is recovering from a mistake. If we dont manage to proc SoD we have to wait for stealth to refill, takes time.
If we proc SoD when we didnt want it, again takes time for it to end to proc it anew. Then there is Shadowborn feat, applying it to desired encounter is rocket science lol. It can be wasted on bleed tick, atwill hit or smoke bomb tick.
Having it all go our way is quite hard and thats where we lose dps. There are TR's who can time it all and hats off to those who do it.
I also changed my mount power from 2k power or 2k crit to an ap gain back after using a daily (thanks to the winterevent).
But there is still the complexity of our class mechanik, even if we are able to lower down the cooldowns of our encounters, without stealth ready...
Even you spidey could see the different between an 60k dazing strike against an stealthed 600k dazing (for example).
So an Gwf sure needs his stacks up, needs unstoppable (without bug), for the best dps
An Cw needs his chill stacks up most the time very easy.
An Hr Trapper is often able to rotate between 6 encounters without an interruption.
And yeah....SW is pressing 3 times tab ore one time in an boss fight and there he goes.
Can't speak for Gf and Op and my Dc is more an buff/debuff boat.
So wich class "suffers" most from the complexity?
In my opinion it is still the TR even if i am playing also from open beta, and i know i am not -D- or GotenGoku if these are the two Tr you have mentioned before.
So my small hope is still an rework of the class in the nearby future and that the devs take a look not on the core dps (wich is more or less ok in my opinion), but they take an eye of the mechanik, meanwhile ancient cooldowns and so one.
And maybe that will make pvp oriented Rogues think about it to change their build from the cheap first strike/SE combo people often complaining about, to something different.
And also make rogues to an viable option in PvE instead bring one more Cw, Sw or Gwf into the party.
BTW:
If some one still thinks TRs must be more usefull in PVE:
But as long we have our mimimimi majority in PVP whining about TRs you will never get a really good rework on this class.
Like Talon said lowering cooldowns too much is probably a wasted stat investment since it takes time for stealth to recharge, recovery is nice around 10k for cooldowns to be just fine.
Mistakes in rotations are what costs us dps. If we fail to proc SoD we must wait to proc it again, if we proc it when we dont want we must wait again for it to finish to proc it anew. Applying Shadowborn to desired encounter is tricky, it can be wasted on bleed tick, atwill hit, smoke bomb tick.
All tr's share same stack of bleeds or its independent for every tr present? SoD credits going just to one tr? How do we ensure bleeds to crit? ...
Our bleeds dont get the scaled dmg boost from Orcus set as the target hp gets lower (if we stack bleeds at 99% of targets hp boost will be 2% even when target gets to 10% hp).
Its hard to make it all go the right way but there are tr's who perform extremely well and hats off to such reflexes and timings.
Other class mechanics rely on either taking damage, dealing damage or stamina. Stealth however relies on 'not' taking damage which can mean rolling around avoiding being hit (and thus not contributing to damage) until stealth is back up. I can see how that's fine for a Sab build but Sab also comes with extra stealth generating feats.
Executioner is about being in the middle of the fight as much as possible, I'm thinking of a mechanic that causes faster stealth regen whilst dealing damage or perhaps allowing stealth recharge to be unaffected by incoming damage?
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
the devs should show the trs some love
And Quilla, of whom Sharp got me to run with, rekt both my Conqueror GF and Issac's HR.
Quilla beat our COMBINED DPS. In FBI. Before the weapon enchant change.
I have no clue how he did it, but serious props to the TRs like Hax, Quilla, and Thorina (is he even around? I liked his TR work) who can do extremely well with a class who is at somewhat of a disadvantage.
To add to the original post... the way I see the TR is this:
Can they do good damage?
Totally.
But for the effort invested?
Unless you just love the TR playstyle, you could probably invest the same amount of time, skill, and gear into something like a Destro GWF or Fury SW and pump out loads more damage.
.
Capable class but obviously a lot more effort is needed to make it perform good. Except getting legendary mount(s) i dont know what else i can do lol, except going into preview and test day n night.
Its a single target destroyer.
I beat good tr at my IL and greater. I've even beat a fare share of GWF at my level.
I don't have r12 bindings, and maybe half my enchants to 12...
Of coarse, the bis dps classes beat me in sva, but not by rediculas amount. Im usually 2nd or 3rd.
After this next 2x refinement, if all goes how I think it will, ill write a guide.
Fingers crossed but I'm hoping that with the nerf to AA that it will tilt the balance of glass cannon DPS with tank classes that run buff builds and not tank builds back to a more party mitigation buffs with real tanks that hold aggro and dps classes that are willing to stack DR instead of Lifesteal. The burst damage will come down and the mobs will live long enough to see the DoT classes get the full advantage of all those ticks. I know a few really good TRs that rival the top DPS and it's literally a matter of a few extra seconds per mob or on a boss and they would have won the DPS race. In a perfect world the tank would run in first and aggro the mob, followed by a GWF using Daring Shout to mark them, followed by the TR to smoke or Dazing to CC them, all others start buffing, then the DPS rotations start. Sadly the game has turned into burst damage hiding behind AA to buff power through the roof and god mode the hits. No defense, no cc, no aggro control, no heals... Good luck getting the community to un-HAMSTER their builds and game play.
Let's see where TRs sit in DPS after the DC changes.
Unleash The Wolves- HR Lvl 70 (PVE)
<font color="Aquamarine">"Non-Pay-To-Win"</font>
I hunt GWF "Magik" on sight.
Mmmm Mod 5. The glory days.
Unleash The Wolves- HR Lvl 70 (PVE)
<font color="Aquamarine">"Non-Pay-To-Win"</font>
I hunt GWF "Magik" on sight.