test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Official Feedback Thread: Weapon Enhancement Changes

1111214161722

Comments

  • dupeksdupeks Member Posts: 1,789 Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    The final item I would like to address affects both of these enchantments. As some of you are no doubt aware, most damage resistance reduction in the game is affected by a 200% cap. However, a small number of powers are exempt.

    I understand where you are coming from, but the reality that Frost and PF surpassed cap is literally the only reason folks ran them. Otherwise other enchantments are objectively better, even for support builds.

    If you are really going to enforce the cap on both of these, I would recommend that you buff their utility otherwise you are effectively removing them as options even for support builds :(

    And be prepared for a bunch of angry folks as the values plummet and people feel swindled once again (especially bad on something like enchants, which have historically kept their value at least to some degree)
  • warpetwarpet Member Posts: 1,969 Arc User
    edited February 2017

    Transcendent Frost Enchantment
    You deal an additional 28% weapon damage as Cold damage with your powers. In addition you apply a 30% slow, 28% recharge speed reduction, 30% damage resistance reduction, 30% damage dealt reduction and disable your target for 4 seconds. (No disable in PvP.) This effect may occur no more than once every 20 seconds.




    Transcendent Plague Fire Enchantment
    Your powers deal an additional 12% weapon damage as Fire damage. In addition your foe burns for 5% weapon damage every 1 second and is affected by a 3% damage resistance reduction and 2% damage dealt reduction. This effect lasts for 3 seconds and stacks up to 3 times.


    both of this 2 have higher damage number in current build then the one u mention here does it means they will get damage nerf to?
  • lordnemesis1981lordnemesis1981 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 204 Arc User
    marnival said:

    daniloslv said:

    Yes, these changes do affect Elven Battle.

    You'll stack up Chill but you won't get the slow for it (or rather, you'll get the slow very briefly).

    I suspect for every PvP CW who wants to buy me a beverage, there will be a non-CW who wants to pour said beverage over my head, but we'll see how it goes. I agree with the basic point of the CWs who say that shutting off a core mechanic like Chill completely is too harsh, but of course if something is brokenly OP on the CWs we'd have to take another look.

    Right now, I'm hoping that CWs can do their thing and get their complete damage rotations in, and people with Elven Battle can continue to gain the advantage of "I'm not locked down by all this control!", which is (in my mind) the real purpose of Elven Battle. (I run Elven Battle myself in PvP on my H/R, and I think that is a worthwhile and fair advantage -- "CWs are totally shut down" is not fair!)

    Just for the record, I did NOT touch Elven Battle in any way. The only changes are to Chill itself. (Btw, Becky was quite right when she said in the Elven Battle thread that this was essentially the same as what let you stack Chill on control-immune bosses -- that used to be a problem, and someone fixed it the same way I'm fixing Chill now. I'm basically just letting that fix apply to non-bosses as well.)

    As a full control opressor CW, I still keep the opinion that Elven Battle (at pure and transcendent level) is too strong.
    It is an absolute defence against control.

    No other mechanic is completely negated in this game like CC vs Elven Battle.

    I built my character around CC, and I'm very happy with this build. I can't kill anyone, but I can CC.
    There is a fair trade here. You can gain CC strength, but lose all dps potential.

    And a full CC build has a place in PVP when fighting against Healing clerics, or high dps GFs, or tanky Paladins.
    I can pick one of them and keep him CC'd. Killing one those characters is almost impossible and requires a full team on them.
    But when they are CC'd for a long enough time - they are killable by the other members of your team.

    But when I face an Elven Battle user I can do nothing. Entangling Force is useless. Freeze is useless. Steal Time is useless. Chill Strike is useless. Icy Rays is useless.

    Lets not forget that tenacity also adds to control resistance.

    A GF with Elven Battle can kill a full opposing team. And nothing can be done against him.

    My Control:
    2100 Control Bonus = 10%
    26 WIS = 16%
    Valinda Set = 15%
    Feated Orb of Imposition = 24%
    Off hand Artifact Class Feature = 5%
    Dragons Grip boon = 10%

    That is 80% Control Bonus. A very niche focused build. With a class that is supposed to excel in Control (Control Wizard) with a Feat Tree that is supposed to boost control (Opressor). But all that is completely negated by Elven Battle.

    I would consider this to be unbalanced.
    So you want to be able to cc others to death with about only oghma that can help.

    Using elven is a trade off exactly the way you do less defence, healing, recovery then negation and no invisibility trick like shadowclad.

    There is to much cc in pvp as it is and as long as we do not have any cc-idc immunity being locked down by either full trapper or control cws is not a good idea.

    Hell there is already 2 tr chaining smoke and cc in every team as it is the LAST thing we need in pvp is more lock down cc stuff..

    And when writing here and santa seem to be around, can you FIX tenebrous enchants that been BROKEN for ages now....
    Sorry, but i have to disagree, let me explain: there is too much cc in pvp, elven is the way if you wanna protect from this cc.

    Who is that delivery all that cc?
    Is the CW?
    Really?
    All the CC of the CW can be Deflected ( another big problem for cw ) if you don't have TEB but have an high deflect build you can have almost the same effect if your lucky enought to deflect the first tick of CC ( it will negate completly the cc effect , take Entlanting for example, if u deflect the first tick the cc effect will be negated and you will immediatly free from the cc, even without TEB ).

    The only actual power that is still able to deliver some kind of cc and is usefull in dominion is Repel ( CW ), that forced most of the cw to do that build with high recovery full oppressor full control focused, ZERO DPS.

    Like you said, there are class that have a tremendous impact in terms of CC in pvp, but that class , like TR in your example , already have power like smoke bomb, that are not affected by TEB, or the best CC of all the game, Courage Braker, always ignore TEB and CC resist, that with a focused build can stuck you for over 17 seconds.

    But that power WORK AS INTENDED, is OP? Maybe yes, maybe no, is not my work evaluate that ( i'm still human, can't avoid to say that i'm a controller and an assasin class have power that do much more cc of me, both with a build focused for cc :P )

    Now, there are class that are not "CONTROL SOMETHING" that have a much stronger cc of a cw, can kill you fast or slowly, depends of the build, and me, a cw, can't do the same of other class? What i want is having the same possibility of other class, if an assasin class can CC and can KILL, me , like a Controller, must be able to do the same, maybe with a stronger CC of him and less dmg, but having the possibility to reach the same results.

    Finally at last someone has addressed and fixed the problem with chill and TEB at last, but this is a fix that will finally correct the core mechanic of the cw .

    I can't wait to see the rework of the CW, maybe that this time.....let's see

  • mifiisumifiisu Member Posts: 205 Arc User
    And there I was thinkin I should finally up my plague from perfect before the new MOD :smiley:

    But I would still vote for the overall rework to go through rather that them reversing everything and putting it on hold again
    Just, ya know, put the cwards back to the tarmalune shop for mod 11 :), you can banish them again in mod 12
  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer
    We understand there is a lot of frustration with plague fire and frost being folded into the resistance cap, we are currently discussing the best way to proceed forward given your feedback. Please keep in mind that given the fact that all weapon damage values on these enchantments now scale with your power, the amount of damage they are contributing has received quite a boost. As such, the enchantments across the board add noteworthy contributions to damage on top of whatever utility they posses.

    In the meantime, I have made some adjustments to terror, like with frost and plague fire I will share the standard and transcendent level tooltips, please keep in mind the % weapon damage value is without any contribution from power, it will be higher on your character:

    Transcendent Terror Enchantment
    You deal an additional 30% weapon damage as Necrotic damage with your powers. In addition you apply a 6% damage resistance reduction and a 8% damage dealt reduction to your target.

    When you strike a foe you have a 10% chance to root the target for 3 seconds. This effect may occur no more than once every 30 seconds.

    Terror Enchantment
    You deal an additional 10% weapon damage as Necrotic damage with your powers. In addition you apply a 4% damage resistance reduction to your target.

    As with frost and plague fire, Terror's PvP and PvE effects have been unified and buffed. Compared with live, the damage resistance reduction is now 6% up from 4%. Where there was no outgoing damage dealt reduction in PvE before (only power reduction in PvP) there is now an 8% damage dealt reduction to targets with the pure and transcendent rank.

    In addition, the base weapon damage value has been increased, up 5% on transcendent from 25% to 30%. (For reference, with around 20k power transcendent terror will grant an additional 52% weapon damage.) The root effect remains unchanged.
    warpet said:


    both of this 2 have higher damage number in current build then the one u mention here does it means they will get damage nerf to?

    It's not the case that any of these values have been lowered compared with the current build. As @rgutscheradev previously noted earlier in the thread, all of the enchantments which state "deal additional % weapon damage" now scale with your power. I've simply stated the base value as the actual value will depend on your character.

    For example, on my cleric with around ~20k power, Frost reads "...28% weapon damage..." and Plague Fire reads "...21% weapon damage as Fire damage. In addition your foe burns for 8.7% weapon damage..."
  • silverkeltsilverkelt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,235 Arc User
    @asterdahl

    your missing the point.. nice that they do " a bit more damage" speed up our utility solo farming.. thanks.

    However, in the case of our utility running MSVA.. THEY ARE worthless.. they do not DO anything in those ten mans, a bit more damage = zippo concern.. Who cares if my DC doubles its damage.. thats not what im there to do.

    you basically have a weapon enchant doing nothing when you are using them.

    IF they do damage and CAN debuff.. then they do its original function, you are ripping away half of its function, FOR a bit more dps.. ALL of which we didnt ask for , and isnt really needed for its function.

    IF you wanted more dps as a DC debuffer, then you dump more into crit and use dread or vorp.

    you literally are destroying the function of the enchants, unless you are basically using them ONLY as low level groupings or pre 70 type stuff.

    I didnt make these to use for those functions.

    THERE literally wll be NO reason to use debuff enchants after this change.



  • marnivalmarnival Member Posts: 1,432 Arc User

    marnival said:

    daniloslv said:

    Yes, these changes do affect Elven Battle.

    You'll stack up Chill but you won't get the slow for it (or rather, you'll get the slow very briefly).

    I suspect for every PvP CW who wants to buy me a beverage, there will be a non-CW who wants to pour said beverage over my head, but we'll see how it goes. I agree with the basic point of the CWs who say that shutting off a core mechanic like Chill completely is too harsh, but of course if something is brokenly OP on the CWs we'd have to take another look.

    Right now, I'm hoping that CWs can do their thing and get their complete damage rotations in, and people with Elven Battle can continue to gain the advantage of "I'm not locked down by all this control!", which is (in my mind) the real purpose of Elven Battle. (I run Elven Battle myself in PvP on my H/R, and I think that is a worthwhile and fair advantage -- "CWs are totally shut down" is not fair!)

    Just for the record, I did NOT touch Elven Battle in any way. The only changes are to Chill itself. (Btw, Becky was quite right when she said in the Elven Battle thread that this was essentially the same as what let you stack Chill on control-immune bosses -- that used to be a problem, and someone fixed it the same way I'm fixing Chill now. I'm basically just letting that fix apply to non-bosses as well.)

    As a full control opressor CW, I still keep the opinion that Elven Battle (at pure and transcendent level) is too strong.
    It is an absolute defence against control.

    No other mechanic is completely negated in this game like CC vs Elven Battle.

    I built my character around CC, and I'm very happy with this build. I can't kill anyone, but I can CC.
    There is a fair trade here. You can gain CC strength, but lose all dps potential.

    And a full CC build has a place in PVP when fighting against Healing clerics, or high dps GFs, or tanky Paladins.
    I can pick one of them and keep him CC'd. Killing one those characters is almost impossible and requires a full team on them.
    But when they are CC'd for a long enough time - they are killable by the other members of your team.

    But when I face an Elven Battle user I can do nothing. Entangling Force is useless. Freeze is useless. Steal Time is useless. Chill Strike is useless. Icy Rays is useless.

    Lets not forget that tenacity also adds to control resistance.

    A GF with Elven Battle can kill a full opposing team. And nothing can be done against him.

    My Control:
    2100 Control Bonus = 10%
    26 WIS = 16%
    Valinda Set = 15%
    Feated Orb of Imposition = 24%
    Off hand Artifact Class Feature = 5%
    Dragons Grip boon = 10%

    That is 80% Control Bonus. A very niche focused build. With a class that is supposed to excel in Control (Control Wizard) with a Feat Tree that is supposed to boost control (Opressor). But all that is completely negated by Elven Battle.

    I would consider this to be unbalanced.
    So you want to be able to cc others to death with about only oghma that can help.

    Using elven is a trade off exactly the way you do less defence, healing, recovery then negation and no invisibility trick like shadowclad.

    There is to much cc in pvp as it is and as long as we do not have any cc-idc immunity being locked down by either full trapper or control cws is not a good idea.

    Hell there is already 2 tr chaining smoke and cc in every team as it is the LAST thing we need in pvp is more lock down cc stuff..

    And when writing here and santa seem to be around, can you FIX tenebrous enchants that been BROKEN for ages now....
    Sorry, but i have to disagree, let me explain: there is too much cc in pvp, elven is the way if you wanna protect from this cc.

    Who is that delivery all that cc?
    Is the CW?
    Really?
    All the CC of the CW can be Deflected ( another big problem for cw ) if you don't have TEB but have an high deflect build you can have almost the same effect if your lucky enought to deflect the first tick of CC ( it will negate completly the cc effect , take Entlanting for example, if u deflect the first tick the cc effect will be negated and you will immediatly free from the cc, even without TEB ).

    The only actual power that is still able to deliver some kind of cc and is usefull in dominion is Repel ( CW ), that forced most of the cw to do that build with high recovery full oppressor full control focused, ZERO DPS.

    Like you said, there are class that have a tremendous impact in terms of CC in pvp, but that class , like TR in your example , already have power like smoke bomb, that are not affected by TEB, or the best CC of all the game, Courage Braker, always ignore TEB and CC resist, that with a focused build can stuck you for over 17 seconds.

    But that power WORK AS INTENDED, is OP? Maybe yes, maybe no, is not my work evaluate that ( i'm still human, can't avoid to say that i'm a controller and an assasin class have power that do much more cc of me, both with a build focused for cc :P )

    Now, there are class that are not "CONTROL SOMETHING" that have a much stronger cc of a cw, can kill you fast or slowly, depends of the build, and me, a cw, can't do the same of other class? What i want is having the same possibility of other class, if an assasin class can CC and can KILL, me , like a Controller, must be able to do the same, maybe with a stronger CC of him and less dmg, but having the possibility to reach the same results.

    Finally at last someone has addressed and fixed the problem with chill and TEB at last, but this is a fix that will finally correct the core mechanic of the cw .

    I can't wait to see the rework of the CW, maybe that this time.....let's see

    That is correct Tr has ridicules cc control atm as well as ridicules burst with first strike+exe as well as near immortal survive-ability with broken perma build, the ONLY remotely good part is that they at least for now can´t do all in one build.

    It been argued for a long time to buff the Tr damage to compensate lowering exe and somehow tweak ITC which is way out of hand together with extremely powerful defensive dodge mechanics and absurd deflection severity.

    With right stats+build you don´t pvp as a Tr you just run around annoying people or 1 shot them, never involve any fighting or skill except to time exe if used.

    Now adding being perma cc:ed by cw:s to that is maybe not the best idea and certainly not something that would make pvp more popular.

    When i play gf without elven the cc built cw can more or less (more if using repel) even today cc lock me for eternity.

    We need a idc immunity on cc:s as most games with pvp has, being locked down in such a way you can go afk from keyboard without any chance to fight back is not promoting pvp in any game.

    Leave elven as it is and create some sort of time stamp on how long and often you can be cc:d so you can separate cc:s how much cc:s can effect players then it don´t matter what you can or can´t do in pve.....
  • warpetwarpet Member Posts: 1,969 Arc User
    edited February 2017
    asterdahl said:

    We understand there is a lot of frustration with plague fire and frost being folded into the resistance cap, we are currently discussing the best way to proceed forward given your feedback. Please keep in mind that given the fact that all weapon damage values on these enchantments now scale with your power, the amount of damage they are contributing has received quite a boost. As such, the enchantments across the board add noteworthy contributions to damage on top of whatever utility they posses.




    cant u just let them go over cap i cant see how is 9% on plague or 6% on new terror to much to be blocked and made useless in dungeons

  • dupeksdupeks Member Posts: 1,789 Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    We understand there is a lot of frustration with plague fire and frost being folded into the resistance cap, we are currently discussing the best way to proceed forward given your feedback. Please keep in mind that given the fact that all weapon damage values on these enchantments now scale with your power, the amount of damage they are contributing has received quite a boost. As such, the enchantments across the board add noteworthy contributions to damage on top of whatever utility they posses.

    It's been mentioned, but these enchants were run exclusively by support builds that have no use for personal dps in a party setting.

    I suppose it's nice that support classes get a boost for soloing, but in a party setting (let alone in one of the trials) additional damage on these support-focused enchants is useless.

    In a 10man trial you're almost guaranteed to hit debuff cap as long as you run a variety of classes, which means in most group content, PF and Frost (and terror) will add no benefit to the party. Value will plummet, because there will be no reason to choose these enchants over dread or vorp (which at least help with healing crits).

    Under the pretext of increasing enchantment variety / viability, support classes are getting left out in the cold. Very cold. Colder even than the Relic weapon situation.
  • wintermurlocwintermurloc Member Posts: 106 Arc User
    @asterdahl
    Ty for the update on terror. This has been the enchant I've been trying to find a purpose with for a very long time. While in essence, 6% is a boost ..after multiple levels of mitigation it turns out to be small increment in effectiveness.. but nevertheless this is good change and I'm happy with it compared to its current state. Please do reconsider making small changes to vorpal and dread with respect to the DR debuffs they do at transcendent levels. This is solely the reason why ppl keep insisting they are better, Sure they hit a lot harder and are the go to dps enchants but their debuffs are not mitigated by enemy DR and are not 75% effective against level 73 mobs even though they are capped at 200% and the uptime on them is nearly 100% since everyone using them are running high crit builds. This itself makes them superior to the rest of the debuffs enchants. They nèed to be replaced with utility for the other enchants to even remotely make a stand. Heck vorpal doesn't even need a crit for its 2% to be active at trans. The 4% debuff on crit from dread stacks with other dread users. I'm very well aware that skills from certain classes combined can easily allow us to touch 200% effectiveness but that is beyond the scope of this discussion and when class reviews will be done all of that can be adjusted. I'm happy with the changes but unless you decide to alter vorpal and dread slightly, all of these changes won't matter much at all.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer
    edited February 2017
    We've discussed the issue more and given all of your feedback I've come to the decision to revert plague fire and cold to their original state whereby they bypass the normal 200% cap, at the same time I may be walking back some of the increases to their damage resistance reduction. I will post the full details once they are finalized later today.

    Please bear in mind, however, that we are currently evaluating the state of damage resistance, the cap and the existence of powers that fall outside of the cap. As such, I caution investing in anything exclusively because one component of it works inexplicably different from other similar items.

    I can't give any specifics about any future adjustments other than that the nature of any future adjustments are still undecided, and that they won't be coming during Module 11: The Cloaked Ascendancy. On a theoretical level, I can say that a handful of otherwise unrelated powers falling outside of this cap in a way that is not clearly communicated is not something that was intended by the team that originally built the system. We would like to apologize for any undue stress caused by the proposed changes in relation to that system.

    That said, to give you an idea, we would like to move towards either a world where the nature and difference of these powers is more clearly communicated, or a world where the nature of these powers is unified. Regardless of which direction we take, we would also like support powers to be generally useful and to not create a situation where otherwise powerful items and abilities are written off because a certain cap is too easily hit.

    Lastly, I would like to make it clear that this is just a reversion of plague fire and cold enchantments. We will not be uncapping those enchantments which are currently capped on live. We would not like to make the issue worse, or encourage anyone to invest in another enchantment solely based on the relationship of said enchantment with the resistance reduction cap.

    As always, we thank you all for your continued feedback as we make adjustments. Please keep it coming.
  • beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User
    edited February 2017
    warpet said:

    cant u just let them go over cap i cant see how is 9% on plague or 6% on new terror to much to be blocked and made useless in dungeons

    The writing has been on the wall that they'd need to reign in stacking debuffs and make everything behave consistently for a while.

    Unfortunately, the inconsistencies were what was giving certain specific things value. But keeping those inconsistencies and trying to balance around specific exceptions would be a mistake.

    Edit to acknowledge that Asterdahl posted at the same time I did, and to suggest that people take those precautions in light of this reversion seriously. The goal of making the game better and more coherent isn't supported by allowing certain things to perform differently than other things, not in the long run.
    Guild Leader - The Lords of Light

    Neverwinter Census 2017

    All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
  • btairbornebtairborne Member Posts: 352 Arc User

    warpet said:

    cant u just let them go over cap i cant see how is 9% on plague or 6% on new terror to much to be blocked and made useless in dungeons

    The writing has been on the wall that they'd need to reign in stacking debuffs and make everything behave consistently for a while.

    Unfortunately, the inconsistencies were what was giving certain specific things value. But keeping those inconsistencies and trying to balance around specific exceptions would be a mistake.

    Edit to acknowledge that Asterdahl posted at the same time I did, and to suggest that people take those precautions in light of this reversion seriously. The goal of making the game better and more coherent isn't supported by allowing certain things to perform differently than other things, not in the long run.
    I don't see the "mistake" if the inconsistencies are not game-breaking, just something else to account for in balancing passes.
  • devlin#3775 devlin Member Posts: 142 Arc User

    warpet said:

    cant u just let them go over cap i cant see how is 9% on plague or 6% on new terror to much to be blocked and made useless in dungeons

    The writing has been on the wall that they'd need to reign in stacking debuffs and make everything behave consistently for a while.

    Unfortunately, the inconsistencies were what was giving certain specific things value. But keeping those inconsistencies and trying to balance around specific exceptions would be a mistake.

    Edit to acknowledge that Asterdahl posted at the same time I did, and to suggest that people take those precautions in light of this reversion seriously. The goal of making the game better and more coherent isn't supported by allowing certain things to perform differently than other things, not in the long run.
    Hmm. I assume this means my groups typical army of con artists is going bye bye? I recently convinced a fellow guildy to make the switch; I wonder now if I just cost them a couple million AD...
  • beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User
    edited February 2017

    warpet said:

    cant u just let them go over cap i cant see how is 9% on plague or 6% on new terror to much to be blocked and made useless in dungeons

    The writing has been on the wall that they'd need to reign in stacking debuffs and make everything behave consistently for a while.

    Unfortunately, the inconsistencies were what was giving certain specific things value. But keeping those inconsistencies and trying to balance around specific exceptions would be a mistake.

    Edit to acknowledge that Asterdahl posted at the same time I did, and to suggest that people take those precautions in light of this reversion seriously. The goal of making the game better and more coherent isn't supported by allowing certain things to perform differently than other things, not in the long run.
    I don't see the "mistake" if the inconsistencies are not game-breaking, just something else to account for in balancing passes.
    I don't agree. It's a bad precedent. Fixing the mistakes of the past should not be founded on retaining those mistakes.
    Guild Leader - The Lords of Light

    Neverwinter Census 2017

    All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
  • dupeksdupeks Member Posts: 1,789 Arc User

    warpet said:

    cant u just let them go over cap i cant see how is 9% on plague or 6% on new terror to much to be blocked and made useless in dungeons

    The writing has been on the wall that they'd need to reign in stacking debuffs and make everything behave consistently for a while.

    Unfortunately, the inconsistencies were what was giving certain specific things value. But keeping those inconsistencies and trying to balance around specific exceptions would be a mistake.

    Edit to acknowledge that Asterdahl posted at the same time I did, and to suggest that people take those precautions in light of this reversion seriously. The goal of making the game better and more coherent isn't supported by allowing certain things to perform differently than other things, not in the long run.
    I agree, however I think that going forward with the (originally proposed now reverted) changes to PF and Frost would have fundamentally changed the role of those enchantments.

    My larger point is that it seems that the focus has been largely on addressing WEs from a DPS role perspective. Support roles seemingly haven't gotten as much consideration.

    Right now, PF and Frost are valuable because they provide a support-related benefit that offers a viable tradeoff with the damage increase on some of the other enchants. Take away their unique benefit and all of a sudden they are flat-out worse than anything that just gives more damage.

    What I would ask is that when @asterdahl and team examine the WEs to bring their debuff mechanic under the cap, perhaps consider changing some of their behavior so that they continue to offer a viable benefit for support classes. Perhaps there are other mechanics that are viable which could be explored (party AP gain, recharge speed increase, move speed increase, or damage buffs rather than debuffs).
  • ghoulz66ghoulz66 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,748 Arc User
    Completely revert frost. Just leave it at a flat resistance reduction and slow at all times and that disable with a 20 second CD. Why use it for a support build when EVERYthing goes on a long CD? It makes it as useless as holy avenger.
  • beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User
    I agree with both points that looking at different utility mechanics might provide interesting and viable solutions (albeit which are well outside the scope of this release) and that any enchant having more downtime than uptime reduces its viability. The one exception I can think of is Soulforged, simply because it doesn't go off until you actually need it.

    Any enchant with an effect that is easily reaching a cap by other means loses appeal. Holy Avenger's damage resistance effect runs into similar problems.
    Guild Leader - The Lords of Light

    Neverwinter Census 2017

    All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
  • lazaroth666lazaroth666 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,332 Arc User
    Hi @asterdahl

    We have WE for pure damage (e.g vorpal), utility (any debuff enchantment like PF or Frost) and those with both damage and utility (e.g Feytouched). The players will tend to build their characters around specific WE in order to get the most out of them. Like a high crit build character will try to get as much critical % as possible for Vorpal/Dread, others with lower crit % but higher amount of Power/Recovery would go for Feytouched and another group of players enjoy playing as buffers/debuffers. This last group of players don't care about their personal damage at all and their characters aren't build around that. They use to play in groups only to offer utility/benefits because that's how they like to play. You could easily remove the weapon damage values on these enchantments but keeping the debuff aspect and they will be still used by these players but if you remove the debuff and add just a bit more of damage, there will be no reason to use them because that not what they are intended for. Utility WE are supposed to be strong for groups at the cost of reducing the player's personal damage output. I recommend to keep the option to go above the resistance cap but only 1 per source (the highest level of the enchantment will be active), meaning that any monster can be only be debuffed by 1 PF and 1 Frost at any time. It won't be necessary to stack many debuffer players per group while keeping the option that they are still able to enjoy this playstyle or role.

    fkze9t.jpg
    ▄▀▄▀ Check out my blog for more information and cool videos: NWO-Battleground ▀▄▀▄
    Proud founder of the 'Primacy' alliance
  • hastati96hastati96 Member Posts: 472 Arc User
    edited February 2017
    -
    Post edited by hastati96 on
    Nero - Palacetamol - Essence of Aggression
  • lwedarlwedar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 790 Arc User

    marnival said:

    daniloslv said:

    Yes, these changes do affect Elven Battle.

    You'll stack up Chill but you won't get the slow for it (or rather, you'll get the slow very briefly).

    I suspect for every PvP CW who wants to buy me a beverage, there will be a non-CW who wants to pour said beverage over my head, but we'll see how it goes. I agree with the basic point of the CWs who say that shutting off a core mechanic like Chill completely is too harsh, but of course if something is brokenly OP on the CWs we'd have to take another look.

    Right now, I'm hoping that CWs can do their thing and get their complete damage rotations in, and people with Elven Battle can continue to gain the advantage of "I'm not locked down by all this control!", which is (in my mind) the real purpose of Elven Battle. (I run Elven Battle myself in PvP on my H/R, and I think that is a worthwhile and fair advantage -- "CWs are totally shut down" is not fair!)

    Just for the record, I did NOT touch Elven Battle in any way. The only changes are to Chill itself. (Btw, Becky was quite right when she said in the Elven Battle thread that this was essentially the same as what let you stack Chill on control-immune bosses -- that used to be a problem, and someone fixed it the same way I'm fixing Chill now. I'm basically just letting that fix apply to non-bosses as well.)

    As a full control opressor CW, I still keep the opinion that Elven Battle (at pure and transcendent level) is too strong.
    It is an absolute defence against control.

    No other mechanic is completely negated in this game like CC vs Elven Battle.

    I built my character around CC, and I'm very happy with this build. I can't kill anyone, but I can CC.
    There is a fair trade here. You can gain CC strength, but lose all dps potential.

    And a full CC build has a place in PVP when fighting against Healing clerics, or high dps GFs, or tanky Paladins.
    I can pick one of them and keep him CC'd. Killing one those characters is almost impossible and requires a full team on them.
    But when they are CC'd for a long enough time - they are killable by the other members of your team.

    But when I face an Elven Battle user I can do nothing. Entangling Force is useless. Freeze is useless. Steal Time is useless. Chill Strike is useless. Icy Rays is useless.

    Lets not forget that tenacity also adds to control resistance.

    A GF with Elven Battle can kill a full opposing team. And nothing can be done against him.

    My Control:
    2100 Control Bonus = 10%
    26 WIS = 16%
    Valinda Set = 15%
    Feated Orb of Imposition = 24%
    Off hand Artifact Class Feature = 5%
    Dragons Grip boon = 10%

    That is 80% Control Bonus. A very niche focused build. With a class that is supposed to excel in Control (Control Wizard) with a Feat Tree that is supposed to boost control (Opressor). But all that is completely negated by Elven Battle.

    I would consider this to be unbalanced.
    So you want to be able to cc others to death with about only oghma that can help.

    Using elven is a trade off exactly the way you do less defence, healing, recovery then negation and no invisibility trick like shadowclad.

    There is to much cc in pvp as it is and as long as we do not have any cc-idc immunity being locked down by either full trapper or control cws is not a good idea.

    Hell there is already 2 tr chaining smoke and cc in every team as it is the LAST thing we need in pvp is more lock down cc stuff..

    And when writing here and santa seem to be around, can you FIX tenebrous enchants that been BROKEN for ages now....
    Sorry, but i have to disagree, let me explain: there is too much cc in pvp, elven is the way if you wanna protect from this cc.

    Who is that delivery all that cc?
    Is the CW?
    Really?
    All the CC of the CW can be Deflected ( another big problem for cw ) if you don't have TEB but have an high deflect build you can have almost the same effect if your lucky enought to deflect the first tick of CC ( it will negate completly the cc effect , take Entlanting for example, if u deflect the first tick the cc effect will be negated and you will immediatly free from the cc, even without TEB ).

    The only actual power that is still able to deliver some kind of cc and is usefull in dominion is Repel ( CW ), that forced most of the cw to do that build with high recovery full oppressor full control focused, ZERO DPS.

    Like you said, there are class that have a tremendous impact in terms of CC in pvp, but that class , like TR in your example , already have power like smoke bomb, that are not affected by TEB, or the best CC of all the game, Courage Braker, always ignore TEB and CC resist, that with a focused build can stuck you for over 17 seconds.

    But that power WORK AS INTENDED, is OP? Maybe yes, maybe no, is not my work evaluate that ( i'm still human, can't avoid to say that i'm a controller and an assasin class have power that do much more cc of me, both with a build focused for cc :P )

    Now, there are class that are not "CONTROL SOMETHING" that have a much stronger cc of a cw, can kill you fast or slowly, depends of the build, and me, a cw, can't do the same of other class? What i want is having the same possibility of other class, if an assasin class can CC and can KILL, me , like a Controller, must be able to do the same, maybe with a stronger CC of him and less dmg, but having the possibility to reach the same results.

    Finally at last someone has addressed and fixed the problem with chill and TEB at last, but this is a fix that will finally correct the core mechanic of the cw .

    I can't wait to see the rework of the CW, maybe that this time.....let's see

    repel is the biggest cc in pvp. CB is second of course but you can't push someone off a point with CB

    elven battle doesn't work against repel but does against smokebomb.

    That said, I'm all about them fixing broken stuff first, then we can talk about balance
    "we all love this game and want it to thrive"
  • beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User

    Hmm. I assume this means my groups typical army of con artists is going bye bye?

    My Magic Eightball says there is no way they're not looking at this.

    Guild Leader - The Lords of Light

    Neverwinter Census 2017

    All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
  • ejziponkenejziponken Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 887 Arc User
    Im confused. So the new tooltips posted here in this thread the last few days are NOT correct for frost/terror? Im not sure what you reverted back..

    Transcendent Terror Enchantment
    You deal an additional 30% weapon damage as Necrotic damage with your powers. In addition you apply a 6% damage resistance reduction and a 8% damage dealt reduction to your target.

    When you strike a foe you have a 10% chance to root the target for 3 seconds. This effect may occur no more than once every 30 seconds.

    ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁

  • ghoulz66ghoulz66 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,748 Arc User
    I don't even understand why they suddenly had an urge to change frost. Nobody complained about it for pve. Plenty mentioned avenger. Hmmm, short uptimes and long CDs, yes, we need more of that.
  • ejziponkenejziponken Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 887 Arc User
    lwedar said:

    marnival said:

    daniloslv said:

    Yes, these changes do affect Elven Battle.

    You'll stack up Chill but you won't get the slow for it (or rather, you'll get the slow very briefly).

    I suspect for every PvP CW who wants to buy me a beverage, there will be a non-CW who wants to pour said beverage over my head, but we'll see how it goes. I agree with the basic point of the CWs who say that shutting off a core mechanic like Chill completely is too harsh, but of course if something is brokenly OP on the CWs we'd have to take another look.

    Right now, I'm hoping that CWs can do their thing and get their complete damage rotations in, and people with Elven Battle can continue to gain the advantage of "I'm not locked down by all this control!", which is (in my mind) the real purpose of Elven Battle. (I run Elven Battle myself in PvP on my H/R, and I think that is a worthwhile and fair advantage -- "CWs are totally shut down" is not fair!)

    Just for the record, I did NOT touch Elven Battle in any way. The only changes are to Chill itself. (Btw, Becky was quite right when she said in the Elven Battle thread that this was essentially the same as what let you stack Chill on control-immune bosses -- that used to be a problem, and someone fixed it the same way I'm fixing Chill now. I'm basically just letting that fix apply to non-bosses as well.)

    As a full control opressor CW, I still keep the opinion that Elven Battle (at pure and transcendent level) is too strong.
    It is an absolute defence against control.

    No other mechanic is completely negated in this game like CC vs Elven Battle.

    I built my character around CC, and I'm very happy with this build. I can't kill anyone, but I can CC.
    There is a fair trade here. You can gain CC strength, but lose all dps potential.

    And a full CC build has a place in PVP when fighting against Healing clerics, or high dps GFs, or tanky Paladins.
    I can pick one of them and keep him CC'd. Killing one those characters is almost impossible and requires a full team on them.
    But when they are CC'd for a long enough time - they are killable by the other members of your team.

    But when I face an Elven Battle user I can do nothing. Entangling Force is useless. Freeze is useless. Steal Time is useless. Chill Strike is useless. Icy Rays is useless.

    Lets not forget that tenacity also adds to control resistance.

    A GF with Elven Battle can kill a full opposing team. And nothing can be done against him.

    My Control:
    2100 Control Bonus = 10%
    26 WIS = 16%
    Valinda Set = 15%
    Feated Orb of Imposition = 24%
    Off hand Artifact Class Feature = 5%
    Dragons Grip boon = 10%

    That is 80% Control Bonus. A very niche focused build. With a class that is supposed to excel in Control (Control Wizard) with a Feat Tree that is supposed to boost control (Opressor). But all that is completely negated by Elven Battle.

    I would consider this to be unbalanced.
    So you want to be able to cc others to death with about only oghma that can help.

    Using elven is a trade off exactly the way you do less defence, healing, recovery then negation and no invisibility trick like shadowclad.

    There is to much cc in pvp as it is and as long as we do not have any cc-idc immunity being locked down by either full trapper or control cws is not a good idea.

    Hell there is already 2 tr chaining smoke and cc in every team as it is the LAST thing we need in pvp is more lock down cc stuff..

    And when writing here and santa seem to be around, can you FIX tenebrous enchants that been BROKEN for ages now....
    Sorry, but i have to disagree, let me explain: there is too much cc in pvp, elven is the way if you wanna protect from this cc.

    Who is that delivery all that cc?
    Is the CW?
    Really?
    All the CC of the CW can be Deflected ( another big problem for cw ) if you don't have TEB but have an high deflect build you can have almost the same effect if your lucky enought to deflect the first tick of CC ( it will negate completly the cc effect , take Entlanting for example, if u deflect the first tick the cc effect will be negated and you will immediatly free from the cc, even without TEB ).

    The only actual power that is still able to deliver some kind of cc and is usefull in dominion is Repel ( CW ), that forced most of the cw to do that build with high recovery full oppressor full control focused, ZERO DPS.

    Like you said, there are class that have a tremendous impact in terms of CC in pvp, but that class , like TR in your example , already have power like smoke bomb, that are not affected by TEB, or the best CC of all the game, Courage Braker, always ignore TEB and CC resist, that with a focused build can stuck you for over 17 seconds.

    But that power WORK AS INTENDED, is OP? Maybe yes, maybe no, is not my work evaluate that ( i'm still human, can't avoid to say that i'm a controller and an assasin class have power that do much more cc of me, both with a build focused for cc :P )

    Now, there are class that are not "CONTROL SOMETHING" that have a much stronger cc of a cw, can kill you fast or slowly, depends of the build, and me, a cw, can't do the same of other class? What i want is having the same possibility of other class, if an assasin class can CC and can KILL, me , like a Controller, must be able to do the same, maybe with a stronger CC of him and less dmg, but having the possibility to reach the same results.

    Finally at last someone has addressed and fixed the problem with chill and TEB at last, but this is a fix that will finally correct the core mechanic of the cw .

    I can't wait to see the rework of the CW, maybe that this time.....let's see

    repel is the biggest cc in pvp. CB is second of course but you can't push someone off a point with CB

    elven battle doesn't work against repel but does against smokebomb.

    That said, I'm all about them fixing broken stuff first, then we can talk about balance
    I dont think you played against Trapper HR. Thats the ultimate control class. You cant do anything against it even with trnas elven on.

    ▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁

  • vida44vida44 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 667 Arc User

    Im confused. So the new tooltips posted here in this thread the last few days are NOT correct for frost/terror? Im not sure what you reverted back..

    Transcendent Terror Enchantment
    You deal an additional 30% weapon damage as Necrotic damage with your powers. In addition you apply a 6% damage resistance reduction and a 8% damage dealt reduction to your target.

    When you strike a foe you have a 10% chance to root the target for 3 seconds. This effect may occur no more than once every 30 seconds.

    The Terror tooltip just came in today.

    The Plague and Frost will be adjusted a bit since the debuff will be able to go above 200% DR.
  • lordnemesis1981lordnemesis1981 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 204 Arc User
    Hi @asterdahl

    This is directly connected to the dps scaling from enchant.

    Now , the GF actually is the class with the high burst dmg in dominion.
    Dont know if this has been addressed or not, but the feat TRAMPLE THE FALLEN in his current state need to be cough cough, placed under a "little" check by dev.
    Now, suppose, just suppose, that instead of giving a total of 20% on controlled target ( 5% for each tier ) give, is just a supposition, 20% for each tier? A burst dmg of +80% .

    Now, taking in consideration ONLY the new weapon damage, that damage will receive, instead of a buff of 20%, a total buff of 80% i'm right?
    If my supposition "cough cough" is right, in the end, the GF will not benefit something like x4 of this dps boost gived by the new scaling enchant, respect of how their feat is intended to work? And we are talking about a class that have an huge burst dmg in dominion....
  • lordnemesis1981lordnemesis1981 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 204 Arc User
    edited February 2017



    I dont think you played against Trapper HR. Thats the ultimate control class. You cant do anything against it even with trnas elven on.

    +100
  • loboguildloboguild Member Posts: 2,371 Arc User
    edited February 2017
    Transcendent Frost Enchantment
    You deal an additional X% weapon damage as Cold damage with your powers. In addition you apply a 30% slow, 28% recharge speed reduction, 30% damage resistance reduction, 30% damage dealt reduction and disable your target for 4 seconds. (No disable in PvP.) This effect may occur no more than once every 20 seconds.
    Even with the reversal on the debuff cap, the Frost Enchantment imho has lost its viability in PVE. People don't like ICD's for good reason. At 6% average damage resistance reduction it's even worse than Plague Fire now. The other stuff is pretty irrelevant. A 30% debuff is pretty strong of course and Frost can stack with itself, but I have rarely seen two players using it at the same time, much less with the changes.

    More than that, I don't see what's really been tried to accomplish here. We have three different buff/debuff enchantments that should effectively do different things to give players choices. As it stands now Plague Fire is the way to go in PVE, is has a sizeable debuff and damage reduction which is all you want. So the other two enchantments have to accomplish other things.
    Transcendent Frost Enchantment
    You deal an additional X% weapon damage as Cold damage with your powers. In addition you apply a 30% slow and 15% recharge speed reduction to your target with your encounter powers.

    Every 30 seconds, you freeze your target for 3 seconds.
    Transcendent Terror Enchantment
    You deal an additional X% weapon damage as Necrotic damage with your powers. In addition you apply a 25% damage dealt reduction and 25% crit reduction to your target.

    When you strike a foe you have a 10% chance to spread the effect to a nearby foe for 3 seconds. This effect may occur no more than once every 30 seconds.
    These are my proposals for Frost and Terror. Not saying it's perfect, but it spreads the effects across the three enchants. Frost is frosty, it freezes opponents. Terror is terrorizing opponents, reducing their damage severely.


Sign In or Register to comment.