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  • abaddon#8285 abaddon Member Posts: 30 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    vida44 said:

    ...Iand one piece that gets rolled on (because for better or worse, winning a loot roll is still exciting)...

    NO. That's N and an O next to it. If YOU like to need/greed something it's not something the rest of us like or think is exciting. These insignia rolls are annoying as it is.
    agreed to add to this when it was a thing everyone hated it. thats why it changed. it was horrible.mostly because 1/5 chance out of .00001% chance is insane.also earlier in the thread someone said only bis players want profit players gearing up can waste money on keys. idk what your smoking but im spending all my ad on getting enchants which i cant farm
  • kemi1984kemi1984 Member Posts: 849 Arc User
    vida44 said:

    @mimicking#6533 add 3 legendary dragon keys to VIP rank 12.

    Nothing more to say here.
    Nancy - Dragonborn, SM Guardian Fighter
    A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"

    1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
    2). Yes. I am panzer!
    3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
    4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
  • kemi1984kemi1984 Member Posts: 849 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:

    Suggestion: Loot Changes.

    @mimicking#6533 the issue here is that there is no in between. There is the guaranteed high value item that takes forever to acquire, then there are the low value items which you get often. What we are lacking is something in between. My advice is to have the bosses in dungeons (for example turtle in fbi) have a medium chance to drop a semi rare item (for example dragon turtle moult.)

    Another suggestion is to make the chase items less rng based and more, "grind over time." For example, if instead of just dropping the shard of orcus's wand, each run could drop 1/250th of a shard, where you then turn in all 250 pieces and get a shard at the end of it (which ideally would be unbound.) On average, people would still have to run the same number of runs, but at least they would feel like there is a sense of progression, where as what makes the current system frustrating is that you never have any sense of progression, you just suddenly, "get lucky" and have your item. You don't feel like you working towards anything.


    To Add:
    There is an issue of discarding the loot, or most of it. IMO nothing more demoralizing when running the end game content like SVA and at the end you get the green+purple marks, and some bound RP you no longer need and you end up discarding them.

    A simple solution can be a trade option of lower marks to higher at some ratio for example 5:1 or 10:1.
    But the point is, and it's for all content, IMO, everything should have a use, even a minor one but getting stuff you immediately choose to discard is a no no.
    Maaaaan I don't even need to say anything, these are all great ideas.
    Having an option to exchange some of bound (not needed) marks or rings for those which we need is a easy, an excellent idea.
    Nancy - Dragonborn, SM Guardian Fighter
    A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"

    1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
    2). Yes. I am panzer!
    3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
    4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
  • crystal892fcrystal892f Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 385 Arc User
    Hey there, I made a separate thread containing a suggestion for the content of the dungeon chests. Some feedback would be nice :)
  • voidgiftvoidgift Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 286 Arc User
    At least if you do this, put a chest that can be opened with a regular dungeon key in sva or make marks drop from boss.
    With dreams to be a king, first one should be a man.

    Rise to POWER with <House of Power>.

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  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    @terramak seeing as we will be forced to use keys, perhaps now would be a good time to remove the 20 hour timer on making keys from campaign boards?

    Being limited to making one per day and being forced to use it is unfair.

    Edit: how about adding an 'all-campaign key' purchasable from Armario Clavus (Dungeon Chest Keymaster) with that almost redundant currency: Gold.
    Please Do Not Feed The Trolls

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  • kemi1984kemi1984 Member Posts: 849 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    armadeonx said:

    @terramak seeing as we will be forced to use keys, perhaps now would be a good time to remove the 20 hour timer on making keys from campaign boards?

    Being limited to making one per day and being forced to use it is unfair.

    Edit: how about adding an 'all-campaign key' purchasable from Armario Clavus (Dungeon Chest Keymaster) with that almost redundant currency: Gold.

    Last part would be almost too good :P
    Nancy - Dragonborn, SM Guardian Fighter
    A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"

    1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
    2). Yes. I am panzer!
    3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
    4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
  • araneaxaraneax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 639 Arc User
    Unfortunately this loot change reminds me of childhood.
    When you " HAD TO " do something, or else..
    When food was on the table and i did not want to eat it, since i did not like a particular type of food .
    And was punished and made to sit at the table until i ate it , even if i was sick afterwards.
    This is kinda how this change feels.

    I will grind for keys, to do a dungeon, and will be forced to open the chests, while knowing the things i will get from it, (duo low RNG ) will probably be discarded at the end...
    That is just sad..
    d7d81448-df6b-48cf-94a0-cf1ba87d861a_zpsish6zr2v.jpg

  • silverkeltsilverkelt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,235 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    Feedback ignorned.

    @ epic legendary keeys to vip ranks 13-15.

    fix rng .. at least make a end date of when we can earn stuff..

    Add in trad-able vendor , so we can swap out legendary rings and such.. becuase HAMSTER , I have a crapload, that I would like to switch.. as I never got the ones that were any use to my toons.

    DONT you dare release this in this nature.

  • thegrimner#3435 thegrimner Member Posts: 66 Arc User


    T

    About unbound stuff and value. This was never an issue during pre-mod days. All gear was unbound, and all gear was sellable for a decent price. People enjoyed it. The loot gave a good income to farmers and unlucky people got their gear. It was perfectly fine and worked.

    @rgutscheradev very much this. Ultimately people won't mind the price of the old things drop if they can aim for the new ones. And making the older items bound and more available will devalue the unbound ones anyway. So the point is more or less made moot unless a new tier of items is made and unless new content is created. And you *do need to create new content and ease up on the grind. we're not so much progressing in the end game as we're doing the same tasks over and over to try and meet daily quotas. and that is certainly something not worth paying a damn for.
  • cattman5cattman5 Member Posts: 69 Arc User
    I would like to see another function for the anvil. Have an option that you pay say 2500AD to un-bind an item from character to account and then from account to equip. That way if the drop from the chest is good but you don't need it you can send it to an alt or put it on AH. Everyone is saying the same thing here and I agree. We need more variety but it also needs to be worth while to farm this stuff.

    As to making the keys in old content I make them all the time as I run old content with new guildies all the time to show them the ropes so to speak. Need something to spend that currency on
  • cattman5cattman5 Member Posts: 69 Arc User
    The only time I have bought legendary dragon keys is to farm EDEMO for twisted icher. So I really agree that some for of seal or such needs to drop to be able to get the item your looking for in a reasonable time. 20-40 runs like demo is feels reasonable to me.
  • hanniballa#2401 hanniballa Member Posts: 74 Arc User
    Looks like we're in for another 50 pages of feedback being ignored.
  • imperiousshiniimperiousshini Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 199 Arc User
    @nitocris83 does that mean that the changes won't be immediate but they will come in the coming weeks?
  • darkstarrfoffdarkstarrfoff Member Posts: 157 Arc User
    edited January 2017

    Feedback is not being ignored, we just aren't playing whack-a-mole with responses. We're collecting everything, filtering through it (because there's a lot of hamsters and some pretty unproductive commentary among the valuable information), and then we have to see what the next steps are. Asking for feedback doesn't mean immediate incorporation but it also doesn't mean we are disregarding it.

    @nitocris83 on that note it would be nice to get an occasional post summarizing the feedback and how the Dev team interprets it. Point is.... so far I've not seen a compelling reason to have our expensive keys eaten.

    So I'm curious, why do we even have about 50000 different types of keys? Why are they not all just "legendary dragon keys" that can unlock any extra chest in the game and you can make them using the same campaign currencies that we can now. Then reduce the price per key to around 5k each as well. This would be (at 500 AD/Zen) 200 Zen for 20 Keys. I would certainly buy more at that price. Others who make keys can just make a bunch (all still would be 20 hours) but they could make them across various campaigns if they wished.

    Hell, IMO you could even chain the price of the keys to the AD/Zen exchange to keep it @ 5k AD to one key so if it drops we can't just horde a ton of the keys. If they stay account bound as well we cant resell so it limits the tendency to buy for resale when it's on sale.

    Then you could have some of the salvagable gear as unbound (so people could sell or salvage) as well as have the possibility of having some items drop as either unbound or account bound so we still have a higher drop chance.

    And of course, I've already mentioned about a dozen times. A ring exchange would be huge. Then people could get the ones they want not whichever one RNG forced upon them. And the new SKT rings should get the same treatment and also be account bound.

    This is of course assuming you're trying to improve the game not just HAMSTER us in the HAMSTER to try and get more money out of us.
  • funsizeandyfunsizeandy Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    Can we just scrap the whole key system? People kill a dragon or demo or whatever, open all chests without a key, and go on their merry way.

    Or, continue your plan to monetize the loot chest, and face a large outflux of ppl. The new loot table is window dressing to the suggested key fix, and your player base is seeing through it.
  • kuero21kuero21 Member Posts: 447 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    I think the least you could do is to remove the blue salvage from the chests. When I slay the almighty demon lord Orcus I don't want to see a rusty +1/ +2 ring within the loot chest. This 2.2k RAD junk feels like an insult.
    How far this game has gone, that players ask you to remove some of the "rewards"...
  • tigerdrsk#8993 tigerdrsk Member Posts: 97 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    A player from the pc that ended up migrating to the ps4 when it came out.

    While the key tab is a good and useful change that has been much needed, are you serious on how that is what you guys plan to implement as a change?

    I can see why there was an exodus of players between modules for this game. How it stands why is it that such ways are used to make the game better when it clearly doesn't? The goal is of course for you (Cryptic) to make money with each new installment you make to a game but seriously with some of these decisions, do you really expect to make your money back or profit from it?

    It seems the borderline is you forgot the one rule of gaming with this whole "free" game issue is that if a player doesn't feel they are winning at all for a certain amount of time, they stop playing. In your quest to try and provide an adequate solution to this problem you made yourself in how you treated the players on the issue of dungeon chests that you felt need tweaking whereas it needs to be addressed also on a few of the games limiting features.

    1. Exactly what is the true endpoint of the game? We are shoehorned early by the sleeping dragon bridge battle and through much of the normal campaign that Vallindra is the head baddie we're supposed to take down, but to actually resolve the normal ark you have to complete an epic dungeon in order to do so? - Bad. The arc should in a way resolve itself WITHOUT the need for this to happen, perhaps add something to dread ring's campaign to point this out.

    Take off more points there on the fact with so many distractions once you hit level cap you end up going every which direction since then. While the scroll of accomplishments by the seer is a great and justifyable addition that not only takes away some of the confusion, a story should have at that booknote a conclusion place before addressing more content. This is what your competition elder scrolls online seems to do rather well, and in most cases gets me to pay more for content AFTER the initial purchase.

    2. Boring and bad campaigns. Now not all of these are like this. Dread ring and underdark and maze engine stand out at being really good and even a small fraction of elemental evil's story in part came be considered ok, but the quests to finish not so much. The first two I mentioned feel additional to the main story, really draw you in to complete and sometimes don't feel as tedious because like in the case of the underdark that it takes you all around to places you have already completed to showcase an even bigger picture of threats that are happening around the sword coast, bridging the world more in a way than a regular map locale. Did I forget to mention that in the case of the Dread Ring and Underdark boons they just flat out are awesome to use compared to other compaigns? Even by the time elemental evil wraps up I find it was worth the effort of all of that for not only the artifact weapon, but the boons made up for all the work to get there and it all fits into a nice story/campaign. I really feel like my characters accomplished something in getting them at the end as to how it should feel. The others however are tedious at best and flat out boring, even less story committed to them and just shoehorned to pad extra content and not as worthwhile to do. Well of dragons is horrible in how convoluted it is and very little payoff to get the boons, please rework asap. SKT boons are even worse.

    3. Dungeons and chests....really? For a game being called neverwinter and the land of the 20 sided die would be king, RNG is something to be expected here but you (the devs) have clearly abused it with how you implement things such as this and as to why you have this corner you put yourselves into. The lockboxes are one thing, but to make just about everything RNG? Why would I play this? If you're expected to run a dungeon to take a break from the story (or lack of one in most cases) why would I run these for garbage? Let alone garbage I can't exactly sell to make some profit? The whole point in doing games like this is to make something for your trouble, something rare that is PROFITABLE for the time in doing it. So I can earn enough either by one run or 20 and something I do want or need. What you have done is circumvented dungeons so badly by your measures you basically neutered them from even bothered to be done which is basically HALF of your game. You did this by saying you would rather people pay for garbage for maybe a 0.01% chance at something good. Then if you get that item somehow, you decided to make sure it was bound so it can't be sold as to lose the value. You add "new" items that look fun but are useless at being lower value which will in turn just end up being garbage anyway and wasted your time. So in the case of putting items up in the auction house by this measure if someone could you are basically afraid of lost value as people won't run the content and just pay for it. If it's already rare and is worth thousands to millions of AD due to the RNG, why would this be an issue? Then for each of these items, people buy zen and get AD with it to buy said items. How would this break the economy? Sure some might get the item for "free" but everyone pays somewhere, and there's plenty that would pay with actual funds to get zen, and in some ways you profit more like this. This is where it helps if you have not just players play test this but some of your developers too. It really feels like someone there failed business 101 or needs to retake the basics. Put yourself in our shoes in using your product, do you honestly feel after the work we do that if you did the same work you would do the dungeons like this? No you wouldn't.

    There are plenty of reasonable ways to fix this. If you really want to do the no peeking, hey that's great but you're also worried on that items would depreciate in value? I guess that means you can do several things:

    1. I like you are adding announcements on some items from dungeons in zone, how about you rotate depending on module, events on exactly what you can get from chests and guess what make it bind on equip? But it'll lose value as more people get it? That's the point. Like supply and demand you make better things for us players to find and sell. It makes the economy go around, it's not rocket science really. This approach you did here? It's lazy and it shows. How lazy? You expect people to be distracted by the shiny new items that are half useless to excuse the fact that boxes are sealed now even with a key that it takes one to open them without peeking. It's fine if you can't make a new zone everytime, but rotating and making new useful items to old locales depending on what's around at the time can go a really long way with the LIMITED number of locations to do dungeons of.

    2. Stop pay walling every bit of content. Make more items to put in chests and make it less like lockboxes too. The problem in doing so many keys from normal dungeon chest keys, to epic and now legendary dragon? You have to pay to open anything in this game, why would I again PAY to open any chest? How about you make bind on account or pickup items on non paying or lower level chests and make bind on equip items on higher chests. See the part again on if a player feels less winning in a game how long they stick around. A game that nickel and dimes me to do ANYTHING is not a game worth playing. That is exactly what you did to this game and it's wrong.

    3. Rework the gear scores for dungeons and in most cases lower the difficulty to many epic dungeons. I should be able to get together any group of adventurers to your "Recommended" gear score and complete a dungeon no matter what. This is truly not the case at all. The 1600 dungeons like kessell will destroy players along with vallindra's tower and it shouldn't take getting in a party with someone at 2500 to carry other members to get through. In the case of vallindra's even 2500s couldn't take her down due to her 1 shot abilities. I mean really? Once again I highly doubt developers are playtesting these changes as they should. Even Castle Never should be reworked. If you plan on charging players like this for dungeons, shouldn't they be able to get to the end easier for you to make money? Again players are winning less so less reason for them to play or even pay.

    4. Add more fashion items to the trade bar store or even put some in chests that can be sold in the auction house. Higher boxes BOE, the lowers, you get it by now. While it might feel tedious at this point to put in, again players need more items to sell. With every new layer of content, there should be more items a player can sell to make some profit to make the game's economy work. That's part of a job when you make games like this is controlling the economy in a fair way. This game should not have players rely on refinement stones and lockbox items as income and in most cases it exactly is this. Players shouldn't have to rely on those items for income. In that quest to make money you just don't get the entire game like this to pricemeal it behind paywalls like this. Look at champions online and then back here. They found a perfect balance between lockboxes to make people WANT to subscribe to play it. They have new cosmetic items all the time which this game sorely lacks now.

    There is supposed to be a game under this lotto somewhere and it's sorely missing. If half of the game is dungeons, but you get garbage from dungeons, that's half the game people just will not play or stop playing. If there's supposed to be a story but it's buried under campaigns, that's another issue too. The point in all of this is there is just so much you guys need to fix really not just the boxes. This game needs more than you're putting into it. At the end of the day it's supposed to be more fun than work, so why does Neverwinter feel like a second or third job than an actual game?
    Post edited by tigerdrsk#8993 on
  • mordockbrmordockbr Member Posts: 32 Arc User
    Here are my suggestions and some of the suggestions i think to be the best from the topic:

    * All Dungeon, Drops should be Bount to Equip, this will add a lot of replay value to dungeons as we will able to farm some specifc itens to sell on the AH.
    * Diferent dungeons should drop diferent stuff based on its dificulty, but all of then must have at least 20k AD whorty of loot in the chest opened with a campaign key or with a legendary dragon key...
    *Seals, demonic inchor and other stuff should be used to provide a slow but steady way of progression... Example:
    You can make a Shard of orcus to be sold for 50.000 Seals of protector
    +5 Ring to be sold for 50.000 Demonic Inchor
    * MSva marks MUST BE UNBOUND with these changes, otherwise ppl will just give up on legendary relic weapon

    Hope devs dont ignore this post...
  • silverkeltsilverkelt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,235 Arc User
    I will state this again as simply as I can, as for right now, it appears to be competely fallen on daft ears.

    No one in thier ight mind is going to pay to you PER run to run things..

    Either add keys to VIP , or have 1 free chest and 1 bought chest WITH The same exact loot rolls, poeple can of course pay to double thier odds on any given run..

    but to simply kill off free to play with this one strike of a code, as you would, is just not going to work.

    Look , Ive paid this company money.. many times, over the course of years, I WILL not do this.. I simply will not.

    You are barking up the wrong tree..

    and its "not just about loot" its how we can access it.

    The way you put it right now, will simply not be feasible for most players.

  • viperwitch23viperwitch23 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 205 Arc User
    I am sorry my Photoshop skills aren't great, but I tried my best here

    This is what Key Grinding looks like now
    image

    image
    Anyone would like to order seats before key changes go live?
  • shadowgod244shadowgod244 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 44 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    after running on the test server with a few guildies and trying to obtain the new loot to test not one of us in 6 runs got any drops from the chests that were anything but the same old drops, i know thats not much to go by but we should of had a least one purple between us after opening not only the normal chest but the special as well, i mean come on thats 60 chest total opened and nothing so i dont notice any increase whatsoever.

    i will once again state that whilst the idea of giving away pets in chests is a good idea and helps to put certian pets back in game (like SCA) other pets like the ambush drake and cambion magus should NOT be included as the people who currently have their's either had to pay during an event to obtain or pay a massive amount in AH to people that did so to give a pet away that some paid $100 is more than disrespectful its disheartening.

    also the 'special chests' from ESOT, kessels and LOL are so outdated and underwhelming with prizes that they are not worth the 25000 that you spend on dragon keys even with the new gear (if it drops) so you may want to consider either giving a 100% chance at purple with the chance at an artifact or consider a new cheaper dragon key for the T1 content

    on a side note if you are going to give out new equipment with new abilities then it may be an idea to have instant access on preview so we can test and see if they have any bugs or if they are useful at all, it was done in SKT with the ability to try out the new eye of the giant and the relic gear so why not this new stuff?
  • hanniballa#2401 hanniballa Member Posts: 74 Arc User

    Feedback is not being ignored, we just aren't playing whack-a-mole with responses. We're collecting everything, filtering through it (because there's a lot of hamsters and some pretty unproductive commentary among the valuable information), and then we have to see what the next steps are. Asking for feedback doesn't mean immediate incorporation but it also doesn't mean we are disregarding it.

    Really? If feedback isn't being ignored then why is it that we still have a mess here? In the 50 page thread you can see asked over and over again, make the dungeon at least pay back the cost of keys. And do something about the fact that campaign keys take a day to make.

    No one is asking you to play "whack-a-mole," but the fact of the matter is, you guys stone wall us a lot. This issue, and a great many others, wont go away by ignoring them or telling us you're working on them. We've been very patient and we've gotten very little for our effort. How long does it take to filter through these posts? It's not very labor intensive to read a post and then meet up to discuss it.

    "Asking for feedback doesn't mean immediate incorporation but it also doesn't mean we are disregarding it."

    Fixing keys is something you should've been doing by now. Not removing an important feature and offering us companions and a vague buff to the drop rates of the rarest items. You guys always want feedback, but often times we hear nothing about it unless its a huge long thread(like the last thread or the swiftness nerf/bug fix).
  • kemi1984kemi1984 Member Posts: 849 Arc User
    kuero21 said:

    I think the least you could do is to remove the blue salvage from the chests. When I slay the almighty demon lord Orcus I don't want to see a rusty +1/ +2 ring within the loot chest. This 2.2k RAD junk feels like an insult.
    How far this game has gone, that players ask you to remove some of the "rewards"...

    An insult you say? and I say it's an insult to kill all three of the bosses in top tier FBI dungeon and receive an Elven Ward Greaves in the chest...
    First two bosses often don't drop a jack HAMSTER! and please do not give us Peridots, you want me to thank you for removing black pearls out of the loot tables?
    Nancy - Dragonborn, SM Guardian Fighter
    A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"

    1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
    2). Yes. I am panzer!
    3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
    4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
  • rapo973rapo973 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 831 Arc User
    edited January 2017

    Feedback is not being ignored, we just aren't playing whack-a-mole with responses. We're collecting everything, filtering through it (because there's a lot of hamsters and some pretty unproductive commentary among the valuable information), and then we have to see what the next steps are. Asking for feedback doesn't mean immediate incorporation but it also doesn't mean we are disregarding it.

    If I look at the history of this upcoming change, there's a clear pattern.
    When the change was announced, the level of dissatisfaction was very high (myself included): many ideas were published by the players to improve the situation.
    The change went in stand-by mode, 2.5 devs were dedicated to improve the change, but after some weeks of work the result seems to be unsatisfactory again and the same ideas are published twice across two different threads.

    Imo the pattern is simple: there's always a big gap between the ideas coming from the player base and how they are interpreted,digested and then implemented by the devs. I don't expect that the devs implement all the ideas, but the dimension of the gap is partially unknown because we don't have important info like the drop rate, the complete list of changes and so on. That is called asymmetric information.
    The only things we know are that every chest will consume a key, the loot and the progression are managed by a RNG that the players don't love while the game experience collapses on repetitive tasks that no one wants to do again and again unless you don't buy the legendary keys.
    Furthermore even if you grind like a hell or buy the legendary keys, the expected level of reward doesn't match the value for money (or time) invested in the game by the players due to the RNG. This is a lose-lose situation: the players don't take the risk, the company has less revenues, less players or less time spent playing.

    This is my snapshot and I want to add that it's quite difficult to have a productive discussion if the available info is incomplete: it triggers emotional feedbacks and a few concrete proposals based on quantitative analysis (and we have very good players who can do it).
    I fully understand that the RNG is the "business secret" of this game, but no players love investing resources and time in high risky assets (like the legendary keys).
    Many ideas have been already published, but the problem is always the same: how do the devs interpret and implement them? Because this gap injects the belief that we are not listened.
    Post edited by rapo973 on

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