There have been some questions about what the increased drop rates of Legendary Rings really means, and I wanted to give some info there. This is a topic I have some history with....
When I first came onto the Neverwinter team about 15 months ago (has it really been that long?!), one of the first things I had to do was make some reward tables for a dungeon (not make the loot itself, which had already been made, but make the random tables that determined how it dropped). I started by looking at the previous set of reward tables, and one of the first things I said was “What’s with these crazy low rates on the Legendary Rings? These should be dropping 10 times as often!” I couldn’t convince people of that, but I did manage to get the drop rate to be 2 times as often. (That was the previous Legendary Ring drop rate increase quoted above from much earlier patch notes.)
The initial drop rate was very small, so twice as often was still very small. But it definitely was an attempt at a real increase --- we’re definitely not trying to trick anyone by increasing stuff by 5% and then writing a patch note claiming “big increase!” or anything like that.
Cut to the more recent round of changes. One of the things people have called out as frustrating is how incredibly rare the rarest things (like the Underdark Rings) still are. So this time we’ve increased them again, by around x5. This is on top of the previous change, so it’s a total of x10. Hopefully this will be enough to be noticeable. But they are still very rare -- that’s because they were so super-rare to begin with.
I know this brings up the question of “why were they so super-rare to begin with?” The easy answer would be to say “boy, those people who picked the initial drop rates were dumb, but we are much smarter!” I don’t think that’s right, though, so I wanted to talk a bit more about what goes into picking drop rates. (Feel free to skip the rest of this post if you aren’t interested in the generalities.)
So why should there ever be super-low drop rates? Well, the original idea of the Legendary Rings was that they were “the thing you don’t have yet”. It’s not much fun to run a dungeon when you have all the unique stuff it drops. You can run it just for numerics (RP and AD), but that’s kind of dull. So it’s good if there’s always a chance of a big win. That means that (even for the most hardcore player) there should be something that can drop that you don’t have yet. But that means there has to be *something* that’s crazy rare (or at some point you’d have everything). The Legendary Rings were meant to play that role. In my opinion, it was overdone. So we’ve raised the rates. But keep in mind the risk whenever we do that: the risk of players saying “there’s nothing in that dungeon I don’t already have, how boring!” (For the Legendary Rings, I think that’s unlikely, because there are so many different kinds, which is part of why raising the drop rate makes sense to me.) So I think there absolutely is a place in the game for extremely rare loot, even if the Legendary Rings weren’t in the ideal spot.
While we’re talking drop rates, another big tension that’s related is the one between sellable and non-sellable stuff. I’ve noticed this has come up a lot in the thread. Some players don’t like the RNG aspect, and want loot to be more predictable. But some players want loot they can sell. If the loot drops fairly often, though, and it’s BoE, then it won’t sell for much. So the really good sellable loot has to be really rare. Dungeon artifacts (like Lostmauth’s Horn of Blasting) have sometimes played this role in the past. This is also a narrow line to walk -- some players really want a chance to get a thing that sells on the Auction House for 100,000 AD, others want the feeling that they can get the things they want directly from drops without having to get really involved in the larger AD economy. I’m sympathetic to both points of view, but I don’t know any way to satisfy both players *with the same item*. What we’ve been going for is a mix: some items that you can earn steadily (say by accumulating a currency and then buying the item in a store), some that you get randomly but they come pretty often (and thus aren’t worth much for resale), and some super-rare things that have a chance to maintain their value (but they can’t drop that often!). Sometimes we can get around these problems by taking something that’s otherwise pretty rare and dropping a bound version of it with a higher chance -- then there’s a higher chance you’ll get one, but the AD value is maintained (the down side here is you can feel bad that you got a 100,000 AD thing but you can’t sell it -- of course, if you could sell it, so could everyone else, and it wouldn’t be worth 100,000 AD anymore!).
Recently we’ve been pushing a bit more towards more stuff that more people can have (hence things like the increased chances on some drops with these changes), but of course the flip side of that is potentially less value for those who want to farm and sell. But overall we still want a mix of these strategies, even if the exact mix shifts over time.
We don’t always manage these tensions (bound, unbound, rare, common) as well as we should. (For example, I think we’ve frequently had a shortage of the sort of inbetween loot -- not so rare that you never see it, but rare enough that it still feels like a win -- loot that can be fun to get even if it doesn’t sell for a ton.) And sometimes we just need to plain make more loot (this is something I’ve been trying to push for, but of course those resources compete with other things like class balance or building new dungeons). But I wanted to give some insight into why some things are more or less rare, or why some things are bound or unbound, and what some of the issues are that we’re thinking about when we make loot and decide how and when to drop it.
Its nice to see the process behind the drop rates and we appreciate the increased amount of communication, it actually does seem to be steadily getting better. I still see a problem here in that it does not help us understand how significant the increases are to simply say we increased them by X5 or X10 or whatever other number if we don't know what the original drop rate actually is. For all we know, the base drop rate for a item could be .001 or some other minuscule number, in which case, increasing it by X 5 isn't exactly going to help. The only ways I'm seeing here to truly convince people is not simply stating your word and lettign us cross our fingers but to show us, preferably, by revealing the loot table droprates themselves. It does look like some effort went into these changes though if the responses on this thread are of any indication, there are several areas that could use some touching up to better meet the requests of the community and there are still some important issues to be resolved before this goes live.
Post edited by trgluestickz on
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
There have been some questions about what the increased drop rates of Legendary Rings really means, and I wanted to give some info there. This is a topic I have some history with....
Thank for the hystory @rgutscheradev. I understand the dilemma you have to face sometimes when you have to take decisions and your story tells more about it. Unfortunately we still don't know the numbers: they are important to estimate the expected cost of the dungeon key change, because your history don't address this important point. Currently with 1 key I can farm a content till a find what I want. The extremely low drop rate is acceptable because it's the only cost to find something good (a +5 ring for example): I don't like the RNG approach at all, but I can live with it. Tomorrow we will consume the key. For Demogorgon it means that we can open the final chest once a day unless we don't buy the legendary keys: even if you increase the drop chance by 10x (which is a meaningless info wihout the numbers), the time to find an item can be (much?) higher than it is today. Multiply the case for all the different raid we have to run (SVA for example) and the overall cost to collect the items can be unbearable - spend zen for the legendary keys or run extra-boring daily quests?
Finally imo the change is still an incomplete and low performing tentative to make easy money: your revenue stream will tell if I'm right or not.
Here some keywords about my game experience: - extra-boring - extra-repetitive - extra-expensive - low fun which is provided by the guildies I play with, not by the game. That's the only reason why I still play. - low rewarding even with the incoming changes
PS: you should collect the keywords form your players and publish them as a tag cloud: it would be interesting to see the overall feeling of the community.
Post edited by rapo973 on
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
There have been some questions about what the increased drop rates of Legendary Rings really means, and I wanted to give some info there. This is a topic I have some history with....
When I first came onto the Neverwinter team about 15 months ago (has it really been that long?!), one of the first things I had to do was make some reward tables for a dungeon (not make the loot itself, which had already been made, but make the random tables that determined how it dropped). I started by looking at the previous set of reward tables, and one of the first things I said was “What’s with these crazy low rates on the Legendary Rings? These should be dropping 10 times as often!” I couldn’t convince people of that, but I did manage to get the drop rate to be 2 times as often. (That was the previous Legendary Ring drop rate increase quoted above from much earlier patch notes.)
The initial drop rate was very small, so twice as often was still very small. But it definitely was an attempt at a real increase --- we’re definitely not trying to trick anyone by increasing stuff by 5% and then writing a patch note claiming “big increase!” or anything like that.
Cut to the more recent round of changes. One of the things people have called out as frustrating is how incredibly rare the rarest things (like the Underdark Rings) still are. So this time we’ve increased them again, by around x5. This is on top of the previous change, so it’s a total of x10. Hopefully this will be enough to be noticeable. But they are still very rare -- that’s because they were so super-rare to begin with.
I know this brings up the question of “why were they so super-rare to begin with?” The easy answer would be to say “boy, those people who picked the initial drop rates were dumb, but we are much smarter!” I don’t think that’s right, though, so I wanted to talk a bit more about what goes into picking drop rates. (Feel free to skip the rest of this post if you aren’t interested in the generalities.)
So why should there ever be super-low drop rates? Well, the original idea of the Legendary Rings was that they were “the thing you don’t have yet”. It’s not much fun to run a dungeon when you have all the unique stuff it drops. You can run it just for numerics (RP and AD), but that’s kind of dull. So it’s good if there’s always a chance of a big win. That means that (even for the most hardcore player) there should be something that can drop that you don’t have yet. But that means there has to be *something* that’s crazy rare (or at some point you’d have everything). The Legendary Rings were meant to play that role. In my opinion, it was overdone. So we’ve raised the rates. But keep in mind the risk whenever we do that: the risk of players saying “there’s nothing in that dungeon I don’t already have, how boring!” (For the Legendary Rings, I think that’s unlikely, because there are so many different kinds, which is part of why raising the drop rate makes sense to me.) So I think there absolutely is a place in the game for extremely rare loot, even if the Legendary Rings weren’t in the ideal spot.
While we’re talking drop rates, another big tension that’s related is the one between sellable and non-sellable stuff. I’ve noticed this has come up a lot in the thread. Some players don’t like the RNG aspect, and want loot to be more predictable. But some players want loot they can sell. If the loot drops fairly often, though, and it’s BoE, then it won’t sell for much. So the really good sellable loot has to be really rare. Dungeon artifacts (like Lostmauth’s Horn of Blasting) have sometimes played this role in the past. This is also a narrow line to walk -- some players really want a chance to get a thing that sells on the Auction House for 100,000 AD, others want the feeling that they can get the things they want directly from drops without having to get really involved in the larger AD economy. I’m sympathetic to both points of view, but I don’t know any way to satisfy both players *with the same item*. What we’ve been going for is a mix: some items that you can earn steadily (say by accumulating a currency and then buying the item in a store), some that you get randomly but they come pretty often (and thus aren’t worth much for resale), and some super-rare things that have a chance to maintain their value (but they can’t drop that often!). Sometimes we can get around these problems by taking something that’s otherwise pretty rare and dropping a bound version of it with a higher chance -- then there’s a higher chance you’ll get one, but the AD value is maintained (the down side here is you can feel bad that you got a 100,000 AD thing but you can’t sell it -- of course, if you could sell it, so could everyone else, and it wouldn’t be worth 100,000 AD anymore!).
Recently we’ve been pushing a bit more towards more stuff that more people can have (hence things like the increased chances on some drops with these changes), but of course the flip side of that is potentially less value for those who want to farm and sell. But overall we still want a mix of these strategies, even if the exact mix shifts over time.
We don’t always manage these tensions (bound, unbound, rare, common) as well as we should. (For example, I think we’ve frequently had a shortage of the sort of inbetween loot -- not so rare that you never see it, but rare enough that it still feels like a win -- loot that can be fun to get even if it doesn’t sell for a ton.) And sometimes we just need to plain make more loot (this is something I’ve been trying to push for, but of course those resources compete with other things like class balance or building new dungeons). But I wanted to give some insight into why some things are more or less rare, or why some things are bound or unbound, and what some of the issues are that we’re thinking about when we make loot and decide how and when to drop it.
How do you explain that the old CN weapons back in the days always had a high price even tho it dropped 100% of the time? For every single run anyone made, there was a weapon. Also the BiS ring/belt/neck from the first 3 bosses dropped like crazy and you still had to pay a decent amount of AD for them.
All you need to make this working with BoE is that it has a good drop rate but not impossible like with the legendary rings (thats way too low rate) and also it has to be something that every single player wants in the game. High demand and decent droprate should keep the price high long enough until the next module comes out and then it should start all over again with new items in a new dungeon.
Honestly, all the equal value for keys thing is kinda silly, that's really only a issue for 3.5 -4k players saving every bit of salvage for legendary mounts or marks and wards to make R12s to sell via PayPal
BoA mounts and companions are not good rewards by any means, mounts and companions for my alt basically junk. There's lots of things that can be given as rewards that would be viable, (companions tokens, wards, marks, cubes of aug, genies gifts or rp) but rewards weren't really the issue it's the rng, we NEED to see some numbers on this. "Drop rates increase, but is still very very rare doesn't tell us <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>!
I don't really see this as them trying to sell keys, (I didn't realize people were buying keys to farm with, seems kinda stupid to me with these drop rates ), I see it as developers trying to get you to play more days even if it's you playing less time each day. I feel like the longer you've been playing neverwinter the more likely you are to spend $$$ on Zen or VIP or whatever and this key change will have you coming back for more days than ever. But if I run another 5000+ skirmishes and dungeons and see no +5 rings I'm gonna be tempted to hang up my Xbox controller
Honestly, all the equal value for keys thing is kinda silly, that's really only a issue for 3.5 -4k players saving every bit of salvage for legendary mounts or marks and wards to make R12s to sell via PayPal
In a way, yes. For those that are still progressing it doesn't matter that they "overpay" to run dungeons, but for those farming it does. But the previous system also worked for progression, so why change it anyway? It doesn't make sense to put effort into a rework if the outcome stays the same.
How do you explain that the old CN weapons back in the days always had a high price even tho it dropped 100% of the time? For every single run anyone made, there was a weapon. Also the BiS ring/belt/neck from the first 3 bosses dropped like crazy and you still had to pay a decent amount of AD for them.
All you need to make this working with BoE is that it has a good drop rate but not impossible like with the legendary rings (thats way too low rate) and also it has to be something that every single player wants in the game. High demand and decent droprate should keep the price high long enough until the next module comes out and then it should start all over again with new items in a new dungeon.
Unfortunately they've gone away from BoE gear in dungeons and bringing it back would be too much of a change right now. They also said they'd like to keep that exclusive to professions etc. Hence although we all love the "good old CN" days, I don't think it's an option. They want players to grind for their gear to keep them invested. If you can just buy all the stuff, progression is over too soon and we know this game doesn't have enough content for the BIS.
Despite the above things mentioned what I am really intrigued is the out of print companions. As @mimicking#6533 mentioned Knox, Cambion Magus and some other will be returning back. What I am questioning is that are only those 3 companions coming back? Or are we going to applaud you for returning most desirable companions like Ambush Drake? Harper Bard etc...
silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
just add 1 per rank up to 15.. company gets money.. players get some resolve on daily runs
and you guys dont look complete jerks
this has been floated from the start and a good comprimise and PLAYERs dont have to waste time making keys EVERY effing day
@mimicking#6533 if your going to do this.. then PLEASE consider this as a option .
Thank you
0
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Suggestion: Loot Changes.
@mimicking#6533 the issue here is that there is no in between. There is the guaranteed high value item that takes forever to acquire, then there are the low value items which you get often. What we are lacking is something in between. My advice is to have the bosses in dungeons (for example turtle in fbi) have a medium chance to drop a semi rare item (for example dragon turtle moult.)
Another suggestion is to make the chase items less rng based and more, "grind over time." For example, if instead of just dropping the shard of orcus's wand, each run could drop 1/250th of a shard, where you then turn in all 250 pieces and get a shard at the end of it (which ideally would be unbound.) On average, people would still have to run the same number of runs, but at least they would feel like there is a sense of progression, where as what makes the current system frustrating is that you never have any sense of progression, you just suddenly, "get lucky" and have your item. You don't feel like you working towards anything.
@mimicking#6533 the issue here is that there is no in between. There is the guaranteed high value item that takes forever to acquire, then there are the low value items which you get often. What we are lacking is something in between. My advice is to have the bosses in dungeons (for example turtle in fbi) have a medium chance to drop a semi rare item (for example dragon turtle moult.)
Another suggestion is to make the chase items less rng based and more, "grind over time." For example, if instead of just dropping the shard of orcus's wand, each run could drop 1/250th of a shard, where you then turn in all 250 pieces and get a shard at the end of it (which ideally would be unbound.) On average, people would still have to run the same number of runs, but at least they would feel like there is a sense of progression, where as what makes the current system frustrating is that you never have any sense of progression, you just suddenly, "get lucky" and have your item. You don't feel like you working towards anything.
To Add: There is an issue of discarding the loot, or most of it. IMO nothing more demoralizing when running the end game content like SVA and at the end you get the green+purple marks, and some bound RP you no longer need and you end up discarding them.
A simple solution can be a trade option of lower marks to higher at some ratio for example 5:1 or 10:1. But the point is, and it's for all content, IMO, everything should have a use, even a minor one but getting stuff you immediately choose to discard is a no no.
@rgutscheradev some of the ring issues would be eliminated if there was a vendor you could trade in a legendary that you have for one you want.
The other big one is more than half the time I run a dungeon now I get 0 drops from ANY BOSS and only get the final chest. Something really needs to be done to guarantee a drop every time from every boss even if it ends up being low value that's better than nothing at all.
I've already said this but IMO blue rings have no place in end game dungeons (CN and such) and it should really be R3 rings and above that are possible there as well as the HAMSTER enchantment shard should NEVER be alone in the box and should be paired with something more useful since the shards are near worthless.
@mimicking#6533 the issue here is that there is no in between. There is the guaranteed high value item that takes forever to acquire, then there are the low value items which you get often. What we are lacking is something in between. My advice is to have the bosses in dungeons (for example turtle in fbi) have a medium chance to drop a semi rare item (for example dragon turtle moult.)
Another suggestion is to make the chase items less rng based and more, "grind over time." For example, if instead of just dropping the shard of orcus's wand, each run could drop 1/250th of a shard, where you then turn in all 250 pieces and get a shard at the end of it (which ideally would be unbound.) On average, people would still have to run the same number of runs, but at least they would feel like there is a sense of progression, where as what makes the current system frustrating is that you never have any sense of progression, you just suddenly, "get lucky" and have your item. You don't feel like you working towards anything.
A very sober solution that grants people the very needed predictability in loot. I see no harm in a solution such as this. And pls, BoE needs to have a bigger part in dungeons, all it does is it gives dungeons longevity.
This sounds like an amazing change if not for the fact that I don't trust this company anymore. All they really did here was turn the dungeon chests into another lockbox. Its far safer to simply go to your local corner store and buy some scratch tickets than it is to play this game. Whats that? Scratch Tickets aren't entertaining? Well go play witcher 3 and skyrim then after you finish scraping away your money. Preview is already reporting that nothing special drops from any of the chests. I think we can all agree we're sick of seeing "a chance" in this game.
just add 1 per rank up to 15.. company gets money.. players get some resolve on daily runs
and you guys dont look complete jerks
this has been floated from the start and a good comprimise and PLAYERs dont have to waste time making keys EVERY effing day
@mimicking#6533 if your going to do this.. then PLEASE consider this as a option .
Thank you
In the origional dungeon key thread and the followup after all the backlash, there were a lot of posts advocating for adding a few legendary dragon keys to vip. Right now, I know a lot of people who did not renew their vip even if they had rank 12, the stuff vip has right now is good but updating it is a must if you want more people to renew and more people to buy it.
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
0
mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
There have been some questions about what the increased drop rates of Legendary Rings really means, and I wanted to give some info there. This is a topic I have some history with....
When I first came onto the Neverwinter team about 15 months ago (has it really been that long?!), one of the first things I had to do was make some reward tables for a dungeon (not make the loot itself, which had already been made, but make the random tables that determined how it dropped). I started by looking at the previous set of reward tables, and one of the first things I said was “What’s with these crazy low rates on the Legendary Rings? These should be dropping 10 times as often!” I couldn’t convince people of that, but I did manage to get the drop rate to be 2 times as often. (That was the previous Legendary Ring drop rate increase quoted above from much earlier patch notes.)
The initial drop rate was very small, so twice as often was still very small. But it definitely was an attempt at a real increase --- we’re definitely not trying to trick anyone by increasing stuff by 5% and then writing a patch note claiming “big increase!” or anything like that.
Cut to the more recent round of changes. One of the things people have called out as frustrating is how incredibly rare the rarest things (like the Underdark Rings) still are. So this time we’ve increased them again, by around x5. This is on top of the previous change, so it’s a total of x10. Hopefully this will be enough to be noticeable. But they are still very rare -- that’s because they were so super-rare to begin with.
I know this brings up the question of “why were they so super-rare to begin with?” The easy answer would be to say “boy, those people who picked the initial drop rates were dumb, but we are much smarter!” I don’t think that’s right, though, so I wanted to talk a bit more about what goes into picking drop rates. (Feel free to skip the rest of this post if you aren’t interested in the generalities.)
So why should there ever be super-low drop rates? Well, the original idea of the Legendary Rings was that they were “the thing you don’t have yet”. It’s not much fun to run a dungeon when you have all the unique stuff it drops. You can run it just for numerics (RP and AD), but that’s kind of dull. So it’s good if there’s always a chance of a big win. That means that (even for the most hardcore player) there should be something that can drop that you don’t have yet. But that means there has to be *something* that’s crazy rare (or at some point you’d have everything). The Legendary Rings were meant to play that role. In my opinion, it was overdone. So we’ve raised the rates. But keep in mind the risk whenever we do that: the risk of players saying “there’s nothing in that dungeon I don’t already have, how boring!” (For the Legendary Rings, I think that’s unlikely, because there are so many different kinds, which is part of why raising the drop rate makes sense to me.) So I think there absolutely is a place in the game for extremely rare loot, even if the Legendary Rings weren’t in the ideal spot.
While we’re talking drop rates, another big tension that’s related is the one between sellable and non-sellable stuff. I’ve noticed this has come up a lot in the thread. Some players don’t like the RNG aspect, and want loot to be more predictable. But some players want loot they can sell. If the loot drops fairly often, though, and it’s BoE, then it won’t sell for much. So the really good sellable loot has to be really rare. Dungeon artifacts (like Lostmauth’s Horn of Blasting) have sometimes played this role in the past. This is also a narrow line to walk -- some players really want a chance to get a thing that sells on the Auction House for 100,000 AD, others want the feeling that they can get the things they want directly from drops without having to get really involved in the larger AD economy. I’m sympathetic to both points of view, but I don’t know any way to satisfy both players *with the same item*. What we’ve been going for is a mix: some items that you can earn steadily (say by accumulating a currency and then buying the item in a store), some that you get randomly but they come pretty often (and thus aren’t worth much for resale), and some super-rare things that have a chance to maintain their value (but they can’t drop that often!). Sometimes we can get around these problems by taking something that’s otherwise pretty rare and dropping a bound version of it with a higher chance -- then there’s a higher chance you’ll get one, but the AD value is maintained (the down side here is you can feel bad that you got a 100,000 AD thing but you can’t sell it -- of course, if you could sell it, so could everyone else, and it wouldn’t be worth 100,000 AD anymore!).
Recently we’ve been pushing a bit more towards more stuff that more people can have (hence things like the increased chances on some drops with these changes), but of course the flip side of that is potentially less value for those who want to farm and sell. But overall we still want a mix of these strategies, even if the exact mix shifts over time.
We don’t always manage these tensions (bound, unbound, rare, common) as well as we should. (For example, I think we’ve frequently had a shortage of the sort of inbetween loot -- not so rare that you never see it, but rare enough that it still feels like a win -- loot that can be fun to get even if it doesn’t sell for a ton.) And sometimes we just need to plain make more loot (this is something I’ve been trying to push for, but of course those resources compete with other things like class balance or building new dungeons). But I wanted to give some insight into why some things are more or less rare, or why some things are bound or unbound, and what some of the issues are that we’re thinking about when we make loot and decide how and when to drop it.
How do you explain that the old CN weapons back in the days always had a high price even tho it dropped 100% of the time? For every single run anyone made, there was a weapon. Also the BiS ring/belt/neck from the first 3 bosses dropped like crazy and you still had to pay a decent amount of AD for them.
All you need to make this working with BoE is that it has a good drop rate but not impossible like with the legendary rings (thats way too low rate) and also it has to be something that every single player wants in the game. High demand and decent droprate should keep the price high long enough until the next module comes out and then it should start all over again with new items in a new dungeon.
IN old times of cn not anyone was able to beat dracolich because was about skill (i let out exploits personal i never did any exploit) and not pure dps like we have now. NOW if they give you 100% loot from bosses then the price will go 1k cause we have a lot more broken things-exploits and are all in bug report public to everyone comparing to old one were poeple hiding them.
This sounds like an amazing change if not for the fact that I don't trust this company anymore. All they really did here was turn the dungeon chests into another lockbox. Its far safer to simply go to your local corner store and buy some scratch tickets than it is to play this game. Whats that? Scratch Tickets aren't entertaining? Well go play witcher 3 and skyrim then after you finish scraping away your money. Preview is already reporting that nothing special drops from any of the chests. I think we can all agree we're sick of seeing "a chance" in this game.
That was my impression of these new loot tables too. It does feel like they just made dungeons like another lockbox only with much worse booby prizes than actual lockboxes and no actually decent minimum reward guarentee. Right now, it sounds like those on preview are saying the same thing, most of them are getting the same boring useless HAMSTER as before and wasting their key the majority of the time. Its looking like these new changes don't actually address the primary concerns people had.
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
1
mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
edited January 2017
Suggestion: 1: ADD the new items 2: DO not increase the drop rates AND 3 : DO not change dungeon key loot system.
OR IF you really want to change the dungeon key loot system then : bring back the dungeon delve event.
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
CN weapons held value for a long time for a variety of reasons, many of which had to do with gear creep being minimal through several modules. Even when they stopped being BiS, they were close enough to remain viable, and BoE, so they presented an alternative for players who missed out on one of the slightly stronger BoP sets for any reason (including playing a class that didn't like the stats on their FF/FD set). The minimized gear creep also meant that the ability to complete CN remained a major milestone for ages, not something anyone off the street could be carried through after one module's worth of progress.
But it's fairly moot because the devs have voiced their lack of intention to make BoE equipment that drops (except the type that has to be refined). This means that desirable drops that hold moderate steady value over a long period would be what I'd call commodities: marks, wards, upgrade tokens, enchants, unbound refinement, SH resources, augment cubes. Not all items the game classifies as consumables, but things that there is a neverending demand for because the game has a bottomless hunger for them as long as there are people playing it.
CN weapons held value for a long time for a variety of reasons, many of which had to do with gear creep being minimal through several modules. Even when they stopped being BiS, they were close enough to remain viable, and BoE, so they presented an alternative for players who missed out on one of the slightly stronger BoP sets for any reason (including playing a class that didn't like the stats on their FF/FD set). The minimized gear creep also meant that the ability to complete CN remained a major milestone for ages, not something anyone off the street could be carried through after one module's worth of progress.
But it's fairly moot because the devs have voiced their lack of intention to make BoE equipment that drops (except the type that has to be refined). This means that desirable drops that hold moderate steady value over a long period would be what I'd call commodities: marks, wards, upgrade tokens, enchants, unbound refinement, SH resources, augment cubes. Not all items the game classifies as consumables, but things that there is a neverending demand for because the game has a bottomless hunger for them as long as there are people playing it.
amd this but do you remember when some obtained first the shard of orcus wand and made the set? THEN they farmed one shot the bosses because the set had problem and the price of the shard droped 100k and now is back to 4m . OR and go back in time it was really nice to have greater mark of potency to drop from bosses and the smart community dying on campfire to skip mobs in pirateking!
After watching some preview runs I'd still say no one would pay for keys to open these trash chests, but people would also not want to feel they may have missed a shard or a horn, so they'll just stop running dungeons and then they'll stop playing. Maybe put the lockbox packs in the right chest?
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viperwitch23Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 205Arc User
So only people who got loads of keys from VIP Or grind old campaigns like me for Dragon Sigil and other things to make keys Only those will stay and do dungeons after this update goes live And those who are die hard people like some I know of
How many people from current dungeon population you think going to quit dungeons? I am not expert here so may be someone can make an educated guess here? Thanks in advance for guessing
Despite the above things mentioned what I am really intrigued is the out of print companions. As @mimicking#6533 mentioned Knox, Cambion Magus and some other will be returning back.
What I am questioning is that are only those 3 companions coming back?
Or are we going to applaud you for returning most desirable companions like Ambush Drake? Harper Bard etc...
Good question, but I still have a strong concern...
If these companions are going to be questing or chest "drops" and if they are going to be "bound to account", what does a player do with multiple companions of the same kind when they don't need/want/can't use them?
Case in point:
I recently upgraded my Simril artifact to Epic and at that point it will no longer accept lumens to further upgrade the artifact. I had in excess of 99 lumens in my inventory that I couldn't trade, gift or auction so I had to wind up selling them to a Simril merchant and got 7 silver and a few coppers for over 100 lumens, some rare and one epic...
Not an entire loss, say the type of loss of having to sell a companion to a Neverwinter merchant for a few coppers because you can't use them but still IMO an unavoidable loss/waste if so many things weren't needlessly bound - especially items that were previously only "Bound on Equip".
To Add: There is an issue of discarding the loot, or most of it. IMO nothing more demoralizing when running the end game content like SVA and at the end you get the green+purple marks, and some bound RP you no longer need and you end up discarding them.
A simple solution can be a trade option of lower marks to higher at some ratio for example 5:1 or 10:1. But the point is, and it's for all content, IMO, everything should have a use, even a minor one but getting stuff you immediately choose to discard is a no no.
Yeah that ^
Post edited by dionchi on
DD~
0
krasensilverMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 27Arc User
ppl stopped playing and logging in after they first talked about that key change and it was the only reason they postponed it and fooled ppl about feedback stories. nothing changed and they didnt learn anything from that experience so this game will die soon and quiting ppl wont come back this time but who cares?
While we’re talking drop rates, another big tension that’s related is the one between sellable and non-sellable stuff. I’ve noticed this has come up a lot in the thread. Some players don’t like the RNG aspect, and want loot to be more predictable. But some players want loot they can sell. If the loot drops fairly often, though, and it’s BoE, then it won’t sell for much. So the really good sellable loot has to be really rare. Dungeon artifacts (like Lostmauth’s Horn of Blasting) have sometimes played this role in the past. This is also a narrow line to walk -- some players really want a chance to get a thing that sells on the Auction House for 100,000 AD, others want the feeling that they can get the things they want directly from drops without having to get really involved in the larger AD economy. I’m sympathetic to both points of view, but I don’t know any way to satisfy both players *with the same item*. What we’ve been going for is a mix: some items that you can earn steadily (say by accumulating a currency and then buying the item in a store), some that you get randomly but they come pretty often (and thus aren’t worth much for resale), and some super-rare things that have a chance to maintain their value (but they can’t drop that often!). Sometimes we can get around these problems by taking something that’s otherwise pretty rare and dropping a bound version of it with a higher chance -- then there’s a higher chance you’ll get one, but the AD value is maintained (the down side here is you can feel bad that you got a 100,000 AD thing but you can’t sell it -- of course, if you could sell it, so could everyone else, and it wouldn’t be worth 100,000 AD anymore!).
Thing is, the price of rare items will always decrease. A friend of mine began playing 3 days ago and I shared some wealth and bought him a blue mount and some mulhorand weapons to get him sorted on his path, and it cost me about 30k total in the AH. When I started my last alt during black friday the same items would cost me about 150k. In time, the same thing will happen with the very rare artifacts that still pop up at absurdly low rates. They become more common, or should become more common if the drop rates were more reasonable, and that is why it is important to keep feeding the economy with more items, to have a chance to gain new stuff. And increasing the drop rate of things that are in the game for years is just about the least you could do. If Lostmauth drops horns at an increased rate, but has a rare (not absurd) chance of dropping something new, I have reason to go back to it even if the more common drop no longer turns a 500k profit. With the change as is, odds are that I won't, as I already earned enough Horns to equip my alts. I had a horn drop last week and was glad for it even though i have currently zero use for it other than put it on the market, which allowed me enough money to equip an alt with an epic mount. Making it bound confines it to a refinable. Which is, I must add, a very unsatisfying game mechanic; having a new shiny is always more satisfiable to increasing item level by 2 or 3 ranks, or at the very least, it's good to have an option. Another example, I have only gained one +5 ring in roughly 5 months of playing. Any joy I had for that win is erased by the fact that the ring (vanishing sight) was not really useful for any of my builds. So, it was doomed to be salvage for a fraction of what its rarity's actually worth. This is not satisfying.
So, the end result of this will be, people will eventually stop running these dungeons once they got the thing they wanted because they have no incentive to contribute to the economy.
This before even touching how the revised loot drops for the chests falls way below expectations and shows you haven't listened to community feedback. Loots as they are on the preview server and as seen on videos on youtube show these chests dropping the same worthless content they have been before the change. Even if one epic artifact drops once every 10 times, or we gain some new companions that may be cool but we don't really have a use for (and are made worthless by the fact that they're bound), the majority of the time, the loot is the same frankly worthless stuff we have right now. So many people have spelled it out for you guys, but it bears repeating, because you're clearly not listening: Paying for the chance to get worthless drops is not even pay to win, it's pay to gamble. It will drop people from the game, it will make those who somehow stay not care for going back to old dungeons, it will make in turn those same dungeons become deserted. If I can't get a group together from my guild and have to rely on a PUG, I can wait upwards of 20 minutes to get my dps queued up, then another 10-25 minutes to run the dungeon depending on the quality of the group, complete with the existing problem of players who lack patience for newcomers and kick them on site, to maximize the chances of a good, fast run. It's a hassle I'll only go through if the reward is worth the 25l and time wasted. And from what I've seen, it's not. And read this thread, I'm not alone. The only way to to make up for the key blunder is to make the drop worthwhile every. Single. Time. we run a dungeon. And even then, if we eventually get the same epic companion or item for the 10th time and cannot sell it or even keep it unless we buy storage (though why we'd want 10 duplicates of something is anyone's guess) then that item's worthless and we get no joy in it.
There are ways to increase your bottomline. Cosmetics that are bought exlusively with real money, for example. Exclusive legendary bound mounts versions of existing ones that offer a perk none of the free ones do, like, say, 10% RP increase. It doesn't create a divide between those who pay and those who play for free, it actually provides paid convenience, and it keeps the player economy accessible to everyone while generating revenue. Do that. And add variety to the drops, raise the drops from the actual boss while introducing a new tier that's worth farming even without the key and make the chests actually rewarding.
Because what we're seeing in the preview server videos is the combination of the worst of all worlds.
Nice story to justify what is hard to justify and once again only benefit those who have a lot of time to play! Now I leave a question that might even go unanswered: What prevents devs from putting an NPC that allows super-uber-rare items to be swapped for those of greater interest to specific builds or even to the player himself? Why finally after running X times the same content behind a specific item and get to the end the super-uber-master-power item realize how much it is useless for your char! So why not at least provide an exchanger for these items (+5 rings, fbi armors and etc.). That was even thought internally so when nerfing the set elol? Thats is my question.
Comments
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
I understand the dilemma you have to face sometimes when you have to take decisions and your story tells more about it.
Unfortunately we still don't know the numbers: they are important to estimate the expected cost of the dungeon key change, because your history don't address this important point.
Currently with 1 key I can farm a content till a find what I want. The extremely low drop rate is acceptable because it's the only cost to find something good (a +5 ring for example): I don't like the RNG approach at all, but I can live with it.
Tomorrow we will consume the key. For Demogorgon it means that we can open the final chest once a day unless we don't buy the legendary keys: even if you increase the drop chance by 10x (which is a meaningless info wihout the numbers), the time to find an item can be (much?) higher than it is today. Multiply the case for all the different raid we have to run (SVA for example) and the overall cost to collect the items can be unbearable - spend zen for the legendary keys or run extra-boring daily quests?
Finally imo the change is still an incomplete and low performing tentative to make easy money: your revenue stream will tell if I'm right or not.
Here some keywords about my game experience:
- extra-boring
- extra-repetitive
- extra-expensive
- low fun which is provided by the guildies I play with, not by the game. That's the only reason why I still play.
- low rewarding even with the incoming changes
PS: you should collect the keywords form your players and publish them as a tag cloud: it would be interesting to see the overall feeling of the community.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
All you need to make this working with BoE is that it has a good drop rate but not impossible like with the legendary rings (thats way too low rate) and also it has to be something that every single player wants in the game. High demand and decent droprate should keep the price high long enough until the next module comes out and then it should start all over again with new items in a new dungeon.
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
BoA mounts and companions are not good rewards by any means, mounts and companions for my alt basically junk. There's lots of things that can be given as rewards that would be viable, (companions tokens, wards, marks, cubes of aug, genies gifts or rp) but rewards weren't really the issue it's the rng, we NEED to see some numbers on this. "Drop rates increase, but is still very very rare doesn't tell us <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>!
I don't really see this as them trying to sell keys, (I didn't realize people were buying keys to farm with, seems kinda stupid to me with these drop rates ), I see it as developers trying to get you to play more days even if it's you playing less time each day. I feel like the longer you've been playing neverwinter the more likely you are to spend $$$ on Zen or VIP or whatever and this key change will have you coming back for more days than ever. But if I run another 5000+ skirmishes and dungeons and see no +5 rings I'm gonna be tempted to hang up my Xbox controller
What I am questioning is that are only those 3 companions coming back?
Or are we going to applaud you for returning most desirable companions like Ambush Drake? Harper Bard etc...
@rgutscheradev
and you guys dont look complete jerks
this has been floated from the start and a good comprimise and PLAYERs dont have to waste time making keys EVERY effing day
@mimicking#6533 if your going to do this.. then PLEASE consider this as a option .
Thank you
@mimicking#6533 the issue here is that there is no in between. There is the guaranteed high value item that takes forever to acquire, then there are the low value items which you get often. What we are lacking is something in between. My advice is to have the bosses in dungeons (for example turtle in fbi) have a medium chance to drop a semi rare item (for example dragon turtle moult.)
Another suggestion is to make the chase items less rng based and more, "grind over time." For example, if instead of just dropping the shard of orcus's wand, each run could drop 1/250th of a shard, where you then turn in all 250 pieces and get a shard at the end of it (which ideally would be unbound.) On average, people would still have to run the same number of runs, but at least they would feel like there is a sense of progression, where as what makes the current system frustrating is that you never have any sense of progression, you just suddenly, "get lucky" and have your item. You don't feel like you working towards anything.
To Add:
There is an issue of discarding the loot, or most of it. IMO nothing more demoralizing when running the end game content like SVA and at the end you get the green+purple marks, and some bound RP you no longer need and you end up discarding them.
A simple solution can be a trade option of lower marks to higher at some ratio for example 5:1 or 10:1.
But the point is, and it's for all content, IMO, everything should have a use, even a minor one but getting stuff you immediately choose to discard is a no no.
The other big one is more than half the time I run a dungeon now I get 0 drops from ANY BOSS and only get the final chest. Something really needs to be done to guarantee a drop every time from every boss even if it ends up being low value that's better than nothing at all.
I've already said this but IMO blue rings have no place in end game dungeons (CN and such) and it should really be R3 rings and above that are possible there as well as the HAMSTER enchantment shard should NEVER be alone in the box and should be paired with something more useful since the shards are near worthless.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
NOW if they give you 100% loot from bosses then the price will go 1k cause we have a lot more broken things-exploits and are all in bug report public to everyone comparing to old one were poeple hiding them.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
1: ADD the new items
2: DO not increase the drop rates
AND 3 : DO not change dungeon key loot system.
OR IF you really want to change the dungeon key loot system then : bring back the dungeon delve event.
But it's fairly moot because the devs have voiced their lack of intention to make BoE equipment that drops (except the type that has to be refined). This means that desirable drops that hold moderate steady value over a long period would be what I'd call commodities: marks, wards, upgrade tokens, enchants, unbound refinement, SH resources, augment cubes. Not all items the game classifies as consumables, but things that there is a neverending demand for because the game has a bottomless hunger for them as long as there are people playing it.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
OR and go back in time it was really nice to have greater mark of potency to drop from bosses and the smart community dying on campfire to skip mobs in pirateking!
Or grind old campaigns like me for Dragon Sigil and other things to make keys
Only those will stay and do dungeons after this update goes live
And those who are die hard people like some I know of
How many people from current dungeon population you think going to quit dungeons?
I am not expert here so may be someone can make an educated guess here?
Thanks in advance for guessing
If these companions are going to be questing or chest "drops" and if they are going to be "bound to account", what does a player do with multiple companions of the same kind when they don't need/want/can't use them?
Case in point:
I recently upgraded my Simril artifact to Epic and at that point it will no longer accept lumens to further upgrade the artifact. I had in excess of 99 lumens in my inventory that I couldn't trade, gift or auction so I had to wind up selling them to a Simril merchant and got 7 silver and a few coppers for over 100 lumens, some rare and one epic...
Not an entire loss, say the type of loss of having to sell a companion to a Neverwinter merchant for a few coppers because you can't use them but still IMO an unavoidable loss/waste if so many things weren't needlessly bound - especially items that were previously only "Bound on Equip". Yeah that ^
Thing is, the price of rare items will always decrease. A friend of mine began playing 3 days ago and I shared some wealth and bought him a blue mount and some mulhorand weapons to get him sorted on his path, and it cost me about 30k total in the AH. When I started my last alt during black friday the same items would cost me about 150k. In time, the same thing will happen with the very rare artifacts that still pop up at absurdly low rates. They become more common, or should become more common if the drop rates were more reasonable, and that is why it is important to keep feeding the economy with more items, to have a chance to gain new stuff. And increasing the drop rate of things that are in the game for years is just about the least you could do. If Lostmauth drops horns at an increased rate, but has a rare (not absurd) chance of dropping something new, I have reason to go back to it even if the more common drop no longer turns a 500k profit. With the change as is, odds are that I won't, as I already earned enough Horns to equip my alts. I had a horn drop last week and was glad for it even though i have currently zero use for it other than put it on the market, which allowed me enough money to equip an alt with an epic mount. Making it bound confines it to a refinable. Which is, I must add, a very unsatisfying game mechanic; having a new shiny is always more satisfiable to increasing item level by 2 or 3 ranks, or at the very least, it's good to have an option. Another example, I have only gained one +5 ring in roughly 5 months of playing. Any joy I had for that win is erased by the fact that the ring (vanishing sight) was not really useful for any of my builds. So, it was doomed to be salvage for a fraction of what its rarity's actually worth. This is not satisfying.
So, the end result of this will be, people will eventually stop running these dungeons once they got the thing they wanted because they have no incentive to contribute to the economy.
This before even touching how the revised loot drops for the chests falls way below expectations and shows you haven't listened to community feedback. Loots as they are on the preview server and as seen on videos on youtube show these chests dropping the same worthless content they have been before the change. Even if one epic artifact drops once every 10 times, or we gain some new companions that may be cool but we don't really have a use for (and are made worthless by the fact that they're bound), the majority of the time, the loot is the same frankly worthless stuff we have right now. So many people have spelled it out for you guys, but it bears repeating, because you're clearly not listening: Paying for the chance to get worthless drops is not even pay to win, it's pay to gamble. It will drop people from the game, it will make those who somehow stay not care for going back to old dungeons, it will make in turn those same dungeons become deserted. If I can't get a group together from my guild and have to rely on a PUG, I can wait upwards of 20 minutes to get my dps queued up, then another 10-25 minutes to run the dungeon depending on the quality of the group, complete with the existing problem of players who lack patience for newcomers and kick them on site, to maximize the chances of a good, fast run. It's a hassle I'll only go through if the reward is worth the 25l and time wasted. And from what I've seen, it's not. And read this thread, I'm not alone. The only way to to make up for the key blunder is to make the drop worthwhile every. Single. Time. we run a dungeon. And even then, if we eventually get the same epic companion or item for the 10th time and cannot sell it or even keep it unless we buy storage (though why we'd want 10 duplicates of something is anyone's guess) then that item's worthless and we get no joy in it.
There are ways to increase your bottomline. Cosmetics that are bought exlusively with real money, for example. Exclusive legendary bound mounts versions of existing ones that offer a perk none of the free ones do, like, say, 10% RP increase. It doesn't create a divide between those who pay and those who play for free, it actually provides paid convenience, and it keeps the player economy accessible to everyone while generating revenue. Do that. And add variety to the drops, raise the drops from the actual boss while introducing a new tier that's worth farming even without the key and make the chests actually rewarding.
Because what we're seeing in the preview server videos is the combination of the worst of all worlds.
I'm not happy.
Nice story to justify what is hard to justify and once again only benefit those who have a lot of time to play! Now I leave a question that might even go unanswered: What prevents devs from putting an NPC that allows super-uber-rare items to be swapped for those of greater interest to specific builds or even to the player himself? Why finally after running X times the same content behind a specific item and get to the end the super-uber-master-power item realize how much it is useless for your char! So why not at least provide an exchanger for these items (+5 rings, fbi armors and etc.). That was even thought internally so when nerfing the set elol? Thats is my question.