How to stop being silenced by groups of unsavoury players (Day 2 and banned again)

zebular · December 2016

I had issues with this in Star Trek Online years ago. After the third time, I became very irate and now, I rarely play STO, I rarely spend money there (I'm not in the habit of giving a game money when I can be and have been automatically chat banned a number of times by scrupulous individuals) and when I do play, I rarely if ever use chat.

This ridiculous auto chat ban feature was the major cause for me to not enjoy STO as much as I used to, stopped me from being social in the game, and now with Neverwinter (and even when I play CO) I just automatically rarely use chat just because. So, you can say that it also stops me from being as social as I would in Neverwinter (and CO) as well. Game bans, whether chat or wholly, should never be automatic and should always take a human to process and implement. Period.

demonmonger · December 2016

8 gms that can teleport to players that work in shifts all day would be better...
Chat spam bot police

silverkelt · December 2016

Ive used the system once.. because a person refused to be quite and spammed legit over and over.. I felt it was a necessary step.

So I guess the question remains, if we just remove it, why about people like that? Just being total jerks, should actual reward you in chat ban.

I dont know, Ive never been banned, neither have I really used that system, except once, because the dude did it for like 15 mins and I got quite tired of it.

Maybe a tweak like, if you vote for a @handle once, you are blocked from voting for that @handle again for 30 days.

Would that suffice?

nitocris83 · December 2016

Chat bans have been a thorn in the side of everyone (players, developers, and probably even some NPCs if they had any say in it) for as long as they have been around. It's one of those "damned if you do, damned if you don't". If you don't have safeguards in place, there's the thought that no one cares. If you have safeguards in place, then they need endless tweaking to not be overly draconian or used in non-designed ways. That tweaking takes both time and observing the effects of implementation. Which means it causes more frustration.

I know this comment doesn't resolve anything but I just wanted to say that we get it :-/

weaver936 · December 2016

ambisinisterr said:
Problem is that would take far too long and would actually cause a whole world of problems.
Contrary to popular belief large amounts of spam bots are chat banned by players every day. Part of the issue is that it can take Cryptic as long as the mute to review the report so consider how much worse the bots would be.

Sure you can argue for better RWT filtering, and I would love that too, but unless that happens the system doesn't get abused often enough to justify the spam nightmare. Spam may be arbitrary but if, say, 30 people think you are spamming you should probably not have been saying whatever you said wherever it was said or as frequently as it was said.

Misuse is more of a problem.. (more than likely) than abuse. I've been chat banned (long ago) by people misusing the system when I was advertising my guild. A simple majority rules mentality isn't really that great of an idea... I've been told since I was a kid.. if you keep getting told the same thing by a bunch of different people in different situations.. maybe the problem isn't THEM... well... I kinda disagree with that.

If the majority of people in PE ZONE Chat (for example) that pay attention to that chat channel are of a certain character type or mind set.. and they are given power (through a game system) to basically dictate what they want to happen in that channel.. then any one else that tries to use the same channel are muscled out of use of a public forum entended for general purposes.

I don't think it's practical to have each Chat Banned manually verified BEFORE the Chat ban takes place.. but it should definitely be possible that instead of just copy pasting a generic response to my CS Ticket that I've been Chat banned unfairly.. the CS Rep should be able to instead have access to the last 10 lines or so of my postings to chat and time stamps to be able to quickly verify if the content and context of my postings should be considered Spam. Or if, instead, someone is Maliciously, Carelessly, or Accidentally using a system inappropriately that has a rather negative consequence on players that may just be trying to help other gamers in NW.

Someone (even a MAJORITY) might consider what I think about the general community's way of treating one another in game as being judgemental... arrogant... or w/e else. Just because they are comfortable with guilds and alliances Neglecting, Exploiting, or Abusing their members and I push back against such things and try to provide a REFUGE for GOOD PEOPLE... doesn't mean that those people (whether collectively or individually) should have the capacity to Silence me.

What is being exposed with this thread and what's happened to me is that the NW game community is and has been fairly toxic and hostile to people that think differently than the majority. I've known this for a long time because I've been kicked out of 1 really reputable community (and a few unsavory alliances) as content has gotten more challenging and I promote civility and treating people with respect, working together to overcome challenges instead of constantly whining about them.

I know that in order for this game to be successful Socially and Financially.. certain changes must be made.. like most of them that have happened since Mod 7. But, to make further changes... with no regard to how the Old Timers in the Game Community effect New Comers is foolish. Old Timers that had it fairly easy and have become more and more embittered with the new challenges of the game content... can have a very TOXIC effect on New Comers. Especially when all the New Comers see is what is in PE Zone and Forums and Pug Groups for most of their early NW experience.

The Report Spam system is having a negative effect on the Game's Community and the Game Companies Bottom Line.. because the really the MAIN thing that holds a lot of MMO players in a game is RELATIONSHIPS... not shinies. If the general feel in this game when dealing with other people is they are Anti-Social, Abusive, and Elitist... then you'll end up with a bunch of players that are here only for the newest shiney stuff in the newest Mod and have to do meat grinder marketing (as a guild/alliance game company) to keep the game viable financially or guilds populated.

I'm not saying the Devs can make their Customers better people.. but, they surely can do something about the baddies stifling the influence in game of the Good Guys..

weaver936 · December 2016

zebular said:
I had issues with this in Star Trek Online years ago. After the third time, I became very irate and quite blunt with Support and now, I rarely play STO, I rarely spend money there (I'm not in the habit of giving a game money when I can be and have been automatically chat banned a number of times by scrupulous individuals) and when I do play, I rarely if ever use chat.

This ridiculous auto chat ban feature was the major cause for me to not enjoy STO as much as I used to, stopped me from being social in the game, and now with Neverwinter (and even when I play CO) I just automatically rarely use chat just because. So, you can say that it also stops me from being as social as I would in Neverwinter (and CO) as well. Game bans, whether chat or wholly, should never be automatic and should always take a human to process and implement. Period.

This ^^. This is why I do what I do... to fight for the Good People who have been silenced by "the majority"...

weaver936 · December 2016

nitocris83 said:
Chat bans have been a thorn in the side of everyone (players, developers, and probably even some NPCs if they had any say in it) for as long as they have been around. It's one of those "damned if you do, damned if you don't". If you don't have safeguards in place, there's the thought that no one cares. If you have safeguards in place, then they need endless tweaking to not be overly draconian or used in non-designed ways. That tweaking takes both time and observing the effects of implementation. Which means it causes more frustration.

I know this comment doesn't resolve anything but I just wanted to say that we get it :-/

Just please.. know there is a problem... and it's out of hand... much of the most negative aspects of the game community comes from the wrong type of people being given too much power in NW. Mostly this has to do with exploiting game systems and buying ad from outside sources... or exploiting how the loot system works.. these people come up and are revered as the "best" in game because of their IL or well kept dmg dealing secrets... those people develop a following and gather guilds/alliances to themselves.. and then they become "powerful" because of the influence they are able to exert on those guilds/alliances... and with a system like Report Spam.. can silence or intimidate anyone that may compete against them using more wholesome attitudes.

This isn't NEW... it's the way it has been since I've been playing this game. It's just manifested differently over time.

If you guys really do want a balanced combat system, and good loot possibilities in dungeons, and a healthy guild/alliance life... you HAVE to contend with the Old Timers... not bow down to them or empower them to silence the New (more optimistic) players that come into game. Only changing Game Systems will have limited effect... with Mod 10.. the effect has kind embittered many of the Old Timers... the New Comers don't remember the "Glory Days" so it's not such a big deal to them... but the Old Timers... well.. the SOCIAL IMPACT some of them have on the community as a whole has to be addressed.. along with the Game Systems you guys are tinkering with.

loboguild · December 2016

ambisinisterr said:

Contrary to popular belief large amounts of spam bots are chat banned by players every day.

We might agree to disagree, but as said I'd rather have that large amounts of spam in the channels than one unjustified ban. I agree with zeb, automated bans are just insanely stupid.

Also most players do not even report their bans. It's not like CS would respond within 24 hours anyway, so you're quite literally better off sitting it out. That's bs. The list of users chat-banned for advertising guilds is looooong.

weaver936 · December 2016

loboguild said:

ambisinisterr said:

Contrary to popular belief large amounts of spam bots are chat banned by players every day.
We might agree to disagree, but as said I'd rather have that large amounts of spam in the channels than one unjustified ban. I agree with zeb, automated bans are just insanely stupid.

Also most players do not even report their bans. It's not like CS would respond within 24 hours anyway, so you're quite literally better off sitting it out. That's bs. The list of users chat-banned for advertising guilds is looooong.

Truth

armadeonx · December 2016

@ambisinisterr

What is needed (imo) is the separation of the ignore and report functions. I often see chat/spam from people I'd prefer to ignore but do not regard it as a breach of game rules.

I'm sure many people hit report when they just want to stop seeing someones posts simply because there's no alternative for shutting them up.

Malicious reporting should also carry consequences and be advertised on the report function.

ambisinisterr · December 2016

armadeonx said:
I'm sure many people hit report when they just want to stop seeing someones posts simply because there's no alternative for shutting them up.

I was thinking about then when posting one of my responses yesterday. What you said is actually not true but right clicking to report spam them is far easier than having to type the name in the ignore list. The add to ignore option should be added for QoL.

And yes malicious reporting should be tracked and action should be taken against those who abuse the system.

Automation is fine in most everything in life as long as it is properly designed. That means some simple safeguards need to be put in place such as actions being taken against those who abuse the feature and, as somebody mentioned earlier, ignoring those who give false flags/reports even if the reports are not malicious.

People have an aversion to automation but truthfully the arguments against automation are normally emotional stances and display negligence on how much of their surroundings are automated without even realizing it.

It's unreasonable to suggest hiring the army of staff required to ban bots all day. Sorry but it is. Recently Youtube announced plans to implement something similar to the chat ban system and the Youtuber's went berserk over ANY automation and many made the unreasonable demand to hire staff to watch every single piece of content before it is released instead of implementing a report threshold.

To emphasize how unreasonable such comments are: The most recent stats I could find cite 300 hours of content are uploaded to youtube every minute. That would require 18,000 staff members just to watch content working 24/7 without breaks or holidays to break even with the rate of uploads.

Obviously in game chat is going to be a much smaller staff requirement but it is fundamentally the same debate: whether you can trust that if enough people think you are doing something wrong that a decision can be made pending staff review instead of devoting hundreds of man hours every minute to be everywhere at the same time. The answer should be YES since most people here likely live in countries founded on the notion of every day people being put on jury's to judge if rules were broken. It's the same concept except the judge (staff member) actually has the power to reverse the decision.

I fully support both the Youtube proposal and Cryptic systems to have proper safeguards which IMO neither companies included right now. That is a problem. The key safeguard is by grading accuracy so that those who accurately report are weighed more and those who inaccurately report are weighed less (or outright ignored) which solves most of the abuse. This is how better report systems function behind the scenes already!

Abuse of any system sucks and safeguards should be put in place but having a negative reaction just because a computer is "automatically" applying a punishment based on the number of reports from people in a certain length of time is a view more derived from emotion than anything else.

silverkelt · December 2016

With the advent of ps4 and xbox, they simply wouldnt have the time to monitor everything anyways.

Just make it a simple change.. if you vote against a @handle, you cant vote again for X # of days.. if that is 30, that seems to fit the mark.

This way people cant just spam vote on you all the time, maybe they will even forget about you by the time it would roll around again.

armadeonx · December 2016

ambisinisterr said:

armadeonx said:
I'm sure many people hit report when they just want to stop seeing someones posts simply because there's no alternative for shutting them up.
I was thinking about then when posting one of my responses yesterday. What you said is actually not true but right clicking to report spam them is far easier than having to type the name in the ignore list. The add to ignore option should be added for QoL.

Sorry, I should've said I'm on xbox. I don't believe console versions have a separate ignore list though I'd happily use it, but as you say, having a one click ignore option is much better.

I completely understand the need for automation with manpower used only for investigating misuse. Also I'm sure if someone received a suspension for malicious reporting they'd think twice the next time.

ph33rm3 · December 2016

Well, here we go again. 2nd day and chat banned again. This time I specifically slowed down my postings to be sure not to offend anyone. Yet here I am, chat banned again.

I have sent a request to support to be unbanned. They will see when they review the chat logs, I WAS NOT spamming.

Because I cannot use chat, I am unable to queue or group up for ANY content. Making the game unplayable for me.

I believe (but have no evidence) that this is the work of several members of the guild MOD FURTHER EDITING GUILD NAME. As punishment for leaving the guild. If I am wrong. I apologize to MOD FURTHER EDITING GUILD NAME and it's entire roster. (The person that was copying my ad after my first ban is a member of this guild and after inviting another member of this guild to my gift party today, I am banned for the 2nd time)

This is clearly abuse of the chat system. I hope the logs are reviewed, and the offending accounts are punished.

Very angry right now.

***Edited out guild name as naming and shaming is not allowed***

ph33rm3 · December 2016

I've been trying to think of a way to prevent this from happening other than to eliminate the report spam feature altogether.

The only thing I can come up with is a system message such as the following:

"user@handle has reported you for spamming"

Then give us an option of a 2-way ignore. So that I can right click their name and prevent that user from seeing what I type in the future.

It may not solve the problem, but at least it would not give malicious users anonymity and would prevent them from doing it to the same player repeatedly. They won't see my spam any more.

ph33rm3 · December 2016

Full time GMs for chat is too expensive and not feasible.

My 2-way bidirectional ignore function would work though. They would no longer see my spam and I would no longer suffer their behavior.

zachcampbell85 · December 2016

I'll go ahead and support the 2-way ignore button idea. Just not financially, unless GF gets their buffs back. Out of all the flavors, I still choose salty.

zachcampbell85 · December 2016

You're right, all I did was type in caps-lock for 5 minutes in public. Not even spamming, just having normal conversation. I was chatlocked and had my permissions stripped within 5 minutes and I wasn't even being that rude.

This is an issue.

zachcampbell85 · December 2016

So that's the main issue here it seems - there is no distinguishing between the "ignore" button and the "report" button. It's an automatic process that completely silences whoever people were trying to place on ignore, and that player can now no longer speak in Zone, Guild, Alliance, Say, Tell, or ANYTHING whatsoever.

I understand that not everyone has to agree with what I am saying publicly, but for example, using caps lock to have a normal conversation does not violate any sort of terms of user agreements. So when 4 people decide that capital letters are too big for them, and they don't want to see them anymore, instead of getting ignored, I get completely chat banned from absolutely everything, and cut off from the game.

What is this, some sort of response to the bot problem and the dev's attempt at getting the community to take care of the issue for them?

ph33rm3 · December 2016

I was there when you got banned Zack. Your all caps were annoying. Maybe deserving of an ignore, but certainly not worth a ban.

Being unable to play the game for 24 hours for using caps does seems abusive.

zachcampbell85 · December 2016

Right, I suppose that's what I'm trying to say. If you find a player annoying and don't want to see what they are typing, or even if 50 people find that person annoying, they should all be able to ignore that player without him/her being placed on a 24 hour chat ban.

I would understand if it was a ban from speaking in Zone chat, but ALL forms of communication, including mail? Ridiculous.

That type of restriction should only be placed on a player for violating TOS agreement.

Not because "boo hoo I don't like what you're saying, caps lock is annoying to read"

ph33rm3 · December 2016

Wow Grouper. You are a real piece of work. There is no need for you to be so rude. It's clear you are incapable of empathy and feel you OWN chat and have the right to ban anyone when you don't like what they are saying.

I've added you to my ignore list in game. It's too bad it doesn't work here as well.

People, including you can use ignore. There is no need to have someone banned. In fact, just before Zack got banned, a player clearly stated in chat to Zack, "Added to my ignore list and reported as spam" Clearly the user knew what he/she was doing. Once Zack was ignored, did he/she really need to report spam as well?

Abuse like this needs to be punished. Maybe the users abusing the report system should get a 3-5 day ban and miss out on some gifts this year.

Maybe then they'll think twice and use ignore instead of report spam next time.

weaver936 · December 2016

zachcampbell85 said:
So that's the main issue here it seems - there is no distinguishing between the "ignore" button and the "report" button. It's an automatic process that completely silences whoever people were trying to place on ignore, and that player can now no longer speak in Zone, Guild, Alliance, Say, Tell, or ANYTHING whatsoever.

I understand that not everyone has to agree with what I am saying publicly, but for example, using caps lock to have a normal conversation does not violate any sort of terms of user agreements. So when 4 people decide that capital letters are too big for them, and they don't want to see them anymore, instead of getting ignored, I get completely chat banned from absolutely everything, and cut off from the game.

What is this, some sort of response to the bot problem and the dev's attempt at getting the community to take care of the issue for them?

I agree.. CAPS LOCK shouldn't be a bannable offense... but, in all honesty.. if i saw that 5 minutes of Caps Lock.. you'd likely go on my ignore list.. not be Report Spammed.

. Who NEEDS to use ALL CAPS LOCK? It's counter-productive and will get you less people to into what you want them to do (FOREVER) than get their attention.

weaver936 · December 2016

Thank you @ph33rm3, for choosing NOT to remain silent on this issue. You are clearly getting more people to be more vocal about the abuse they have suffered over the years than I was able to. NO ONE should remain silent about ANY type of ABUSE, NEGLECT, or MISUSE of them as individuals.

It may seem silly that I talk about these things like they are Real Life offenses, but I see this game and the interactions between Peers and the Game Company and it Customer base from a Relational Perspective. MMO's are all about people.. or at least should be. The Devs and the Game Community HAVE to understand this and act accordingly for this game to ever MERIT the amount TIME and MONEY some of us (me 15 hours a day and thousands of USD) invest in it.

Hopefully these people that thought the problem wasn't as bad as it really is are finally seeing their error.

How to stop being silenced by groups of unsavoury players (Day 2 and banned again)

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