feanor70118Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,170Arc User
Since the devs are apparently reading this, let me make some suggestions about the supposedly upcoming loot table supposed overhaul:
1) It had better be immediate. No one is going to hang around and run the new content (or old) while the rewards remain garbage and we have to accept them. 2) It had better be consistent. No one is going to put up with having to accept garbage loot EVER, AT ALL if we have no choice and keys cost significant time/resources to obtain. 3) The overhaul should extend to lockboxes. I don't know how many times my VIP key has resulted in two green insignias or maybe 5k worth of artifact RP that I don't need and can't sell but I speak for hundreds when I say I'M SICK OF IT. 4) Stop insulting our intelligence by claiming that the option to decline garbage loot was a bug. The problem was the garbage loot, not the option to decline it. You're removing the cause, but not the symptom.
To all who are still reading and adding to the announcement I added something to the Feedback part of the forums an idea inspired from this key announcement/debacle as I think it was more appropriate to put it there instead of here.
Hey everyone, now that I'm back from vacation and am not drowning too terribly from emails and tasks, I will say that I totally understand your frustrations. Expect a follow up very soon.
Also, I'd like to debunk any rumors of negative things happening to the game whenever I'm on vacation. It's a mere coincidence - not one that I enjoy as I'd rather be here when these announcements happen so it doesn't follow me during my vacation.
I'd also like to thank Xeltey, my EU counterpart, for stepping in and making the announcement.
So we wait for someone with some pull to show up, and we got told to wait even longer. Awesome!
How much you guys bet "very soon" is codeword for, "We'll tell you the week that Sea of Moving Ice drops that we're going forward with the change and we're not buffing drops or doing anything worthwhile to compensate you for it."
Hey everyone, now that I'm back from vacation and am not drowning too terribly from emails and tasks, I will say that I totally understand your frustrations. Expect a follow up very soon.
Also, I'd like to debunk any rumors of negative things happening to the game whenever I'm on vacation. It's a mere coincidence - not one that I enjoy as I'd rather be here when these announcements happen so it doesn't follow me during my vacation.
I'd also like to thank Xeltey, my EU counterpart, for stepping in and making the announcement.
So we wait for someone with some pull to show up, and we got told to wait even longer. Awesome!
How much you guys bet "very soon" is codeword for, "We'll tell you the week that Sea of Moving Ice drops that we're going forward with the change and we're not buffing drops or doing anything worthwhile to compensate you for it."
Mimic King here. Not what it means. 56 pages of forum takes a bit to go through. Like Strumslinger said, we've heard you all very clearly,and will be responding soon. And it is Sturmslinger's fault. No more vacations for him! M.K.
Hey everyone, now that I'm back from vacation and am not drowning too terribly from emails and tasks, I will say that I totally understand your frustrations. Expect a follow up very soon.
Also, I'd like to debunk any rumors of negative things happening to the game whenever I'm on vacation. It's a mere coincidence - not one that I enjoy as I'd rather be here when these announcements happen so it doesn't follow me during my vacation.
I'd also like to thank Xeltey, my EU counterpart, for stepping in and making the announcement.
So we wait for someone with some pull to show up, and we got told to wait even longer. Awesome!
How much you guys bet "very soon" is codeword for, "We'll tell you the week that Sea of Moving Ice drops that we're going forward with the change and we're not buffing drops or doing anything worthwhile to compensate you for it."
Mimic King here. Not what it means. 56 pages of forum takes a bit to go through. Like Strumslinger said, we've heard you all very clearly,and will be responding soon. And it is Sturmslinger's fault. No more vacations for him! M.K.
HAHAHAHA! In all seriousness, no one faults the man for vacationing. I also do agree, the European mod took an unfair beating. It was a case of killing the messenger, and it got out of hand.
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lantern22Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,111Arc User
I'd also like to thank Xeltey, my EU counterpart, for stepping in and making the announcement.
I reckon Xeltey has taken a bullet for you Andy, you probably owe him/her a slab (not sure if that makes sense outside SE Australia - i.e. case/carton/box of beer).
Mimic King here. Not what it means. 56 pages of forum takes a bit to go through. Like Strumslinger said, we've heard you all very clearly,and will be responding soon. And it is Sturmslinger's fault. No more vacations for him! M.K.
The fact you can make humor in this is a sign of the problem. Check the stats on the game and how many long-term players have left. Many guilds are turning into a ghost town over this announcement on top of the other nerfs. Which rumored is your intention. Remove the older players who are great for the community but are not providing as much financial incentive to you.
My opinion is that boss loot needs to improve. Sometimes bosses drop nothing, that should change. Insignias need to be unbound, and a chance of epic ones would be nice. Also, the amount of AD you get from the dungeon should be increased. AD should be added to trials like demo, tiamat and RoW.
AFAIK bosses always drop loot but only 1 player within the group gets the drop. Pre-mod 6 bosses always dropped loot and players had to roll for it, this still applies but the roll is now automatic and hidden. I would suggest to make the automatic rolls public again, so at least all players within the group know something dropped.
I also agree with the AD increase. We can only farm a certain amount of AD per day and character, we can reach the cap via 2 dungeon runs, 2 skirmish runs and 2 pvp runs. Instead of this dumb system, it should be the player's choice how he wants to reach his daily cap. Pvp players would probably run straight 6 pvp runs and dungeon hunters would go for 6 dungeons or a mix of dungeon and skirmishes. Also, we really need epic insignias to actually drop. It's such a shame that all this stuff is only obtainable via lockboxes. Only way to get them is to cash for them (either zen or AD). We should be able to earn these. This would also be a good way to help fixing your horrible award system. There simply are no other ways of getting "awarded", other than opening lockboxes. Same thing applies to legendary mounts. Either you cash 25 million Ad, a few hundred or thousands of bucks or try the lottery within the summer festival/ portobellos. There is literally no way to earn this kind of stuff. Either cash or be favored by Tymora. RNG is never awarding. If you win a lottery, a valuable lockbox item or an elusive rng boss drop like orcus shard, you will definitely feel lucky but not awarded. Awards should be like boons within the campaigns, instead of this stupid rng you work and grind daily for your overall progression. You could easily install awards within the current campaign system.
I also strongly suggest that you rework the companion system. The companion system should be similiar to the current mount system. People do not choose their companions based on their favors but on the active bonuses, runestone and item slots. And I really wished we were actually able to customize our mount and companions. One of my favorite mounts is the jubilee parade horse but dang, its armor is so ugly. I wished I could upgrade the armor and change the colors. Same thing applies to companions. One of my favorites is the phoenix aka phoera but I dislike their colors. I would love to have a black/ golden one.
Most of these suggestions have been made over and over but you guys never listen and then get together at your meetings and wonder your hamsters off how to make the game more awarding. The first step to make the game more awarding is to actually give the customer what he's looking for. Something each good company knows about.
I'd also like to thank Xeltey, my EU counterpart, for stepping in and making the announcement.
I reckon Xeltey has taken a bullet for you Andy, you probably owe him/her a slab (not sure if that makes sense outside SE Australia - i.e. case/carton/box of beer).
A case is a 24 pack in America (or at least for beer that's not urine in a can). Would have to be some nice stuff for it to make up for this imo.
Mimic King here. Not what it means. 56 pages of forum takes a bit to go through. Like Strumslinger said, we've heard you all very clearly,and will be responding soon. And it is Sturmslinger's fault. No more vacations for him! M.K.
The fact you can make humor in this is a sign of the problem. Check the stats on the game and how many long-term players have left. Many guilds are turning into a ghost town over this announcement on top of the other nerfs. Which rumored is your intention. Remove the older players who are great for the community but are not providing as much financial incentive to you.
That assumption shows a pretty thorough misunderstanding of the way they monetize games like this.
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
Hey everyone, now that I'm back from vacation and am not drowning too terribly from emails and tasks, I will say that I totally understand your frustrations. Expect a follow up very soon.
Also, I'd like to debunk any rumors of negative things happening to the game whenever I'm on vacation. It's a mere coincidence - not one that I enjoy as I'd rather be here when these announcements happen so it doesn't follow me during my vacation.
I'd also like to thank Xeltey, my EU counterpart, for stepping in and making the announcement.
I don't know how you couldn't have digested the enormity of this situation. You guys are in damage control make no mistake, you need to make an announcement soon taking on the advice and recommendations that are within the thread. Be transparent and clear and state exactly what you're going to do to turn this around.
Check your numbers, the metrics should be in and you will see a massive decline in player numbers, players who haven't logged on, dungeons run, RMT for zen etc. Across the board, all platforms you have lost a lot of people who are or will be giving up on this game. The longer you leave it the worse it's going to be. Whoever has been responsible for these decisions needs to be removed. Time to start repairing the damage and with a little humility start winning back the trust you have completely lost from your players.
You need to improve communication and back it up with commitments, without something concrete forthcoming the damage to this game and community will only get worse and may never recover.
Hey everyone, now that I'm back from vacation and am not drowning too terribly from emails and tasks, I will say that I totally understand your frustrations. Expect a follow up very soon.
Also, I'd like to debunk any rumors of negative things happening to the game whenever I'm on vacation. It's a mere coincidence - not one that I enjoy as I'd rather be here when these announcements happen so it doesn't follow me during my vacation.
I'd also like to thank Xeltey, my EU counterpart, for stepping in and making the announcement.
So we wait for someone with some pull to show up, and we got told to wait even longer. Awesome!
How much you guys bet "very soon" is codeword for, "We'll tell you the week that Sea of Moving Ice drops that we're going forward with the change and we're not buffing drops or doing anything worthwhile to compensate you for it."
Mimic King here. Not what it means. 56 pages of forum takes a bit to go through. Like Strumslinger said, we've heard you all very clearly,and will be responding soon. And it is Sturmslinger's fault. No more vacations for him! M.K.
So this is an "official statement"?
Tbh i am an huge fan of sarcasm and ironie aswell, but this.....
I understand now, why an Part of the companie is located in Amsterdam, Netherlands, maybe you have an office in Medellin, Colombia aswell?? So you have today recieved your ordered package? I know these behavior only from an long time Coke instead Pepsi User...
Warning: Long winded rant to follow.......followed by my heart to heart plea to the dev's
As was suggested by another, I would much rather the devs just fix all the bugs, loot, etc, and move over to a sub system. Hands down, the single best investment into this game is VIP membership. It is the only thing you can purchase where you don't walk away feeling bent over and raw, and you had to do it to progress in the game. This is the only thing in game that remotely feels "rewarding" to be a paying customer. The way the current system is on ps4, unless you get horribly lucky with an orcus drop, or get lucky with lockboxes, once you hit a point, you are pretty much stuck without spending loads of cash. Lord knows ELOL horn has dropped in price, along with most everything else, because so many players are stuck at ilvl 2.2-2.7k, that is where 90% of dungeon runs go, and you're dealing with a community that won't be duped into dumping money into a game anymore because it feels like they HAVE to. I HAD a guild of 70+ ppl that QUIT playing NW becuase of reasons like this.
My friend's and I absolutely love the game, but what we don't love is feeling like we HAVE to spend money to be able to progress in the game past a certain point, especially to be end game viable characters. We want to spend to feel like we are supporting a game we love playing, and what we get in return is an actual bonus, not a necessity. I don't want to sit on the AH for 2 weeks flipping stuff for minor profits for my next upgrade for a toon because I know in that 2 week time I can run dungeons until my eyes bleed, and not get a single drop that will benefit me, or actually make me ad to progress me towards my goals. Literally TWO horns have dropped for me in THREE months, and that is ALL of significant value. A big whopping 800k per horn, which doesn't get you very darn far at all, and I used on of the horns for myself!
I can give an example. Warframe. I have played since a few months of release on console, and still do to this day, along with several of my friends I play NW with. We have dropped more money into Warframe than we have NW (not just because we've played it longer, because our spending w NW is DONE w/o changes), why? (and we're talking between the group of guys that play both games with me $3k+ in that group we've spent on NW, and even more in Warframe) Because we weren't forced to, in any way, shape, or form. And we did it without stupid annoying gimmicks in our face every time we turned around, trying to make us feel like we have to spend money. Every time I turn around, I keep expecting a damn infomercial to pop up, "BUT WAIT,THERE'S MORE!" We bought stuff we actually WANTED, not HAD TO FRIGGEN HAVE! Cosmetics, pretty HAMSTER, shiny HAMSTER, HAMSTER we though that just looked really awesome and wanted even though there was no purpose to have it! At NO POINT in my time spent on Warframe I have had to spend money to stay TOP TIER end game viable, and I mean being able to compete at the VERY top, and THAT is why I will continue to support the wonderful dev's at Digital Extremes, along with their constant open lines of communication, customer service that makes you feel like you are actually valued, and devs that PARTICIPATE in the community, daily. You can pm them on the forum, tweet them, and they respond to you like you are an actual human-EFFING-being and they actually care about your input into what they are delivering to US! Why? They KNOW the PLAYERS feed THEIR FAMILIES! Without US, they would not be able to have their game they make, FOR US! EVERY "COMPANION" in that game you can acquire IN FRIGGEN GAME! EVERY ONE OF THEM! Your ships, all acquired in game. All weapons. All upgrades. EVERYTHING! See a common theme?
Do you want players that are going to come in, spend $100, if even that, then leave the game after a few months in? Or do you want players that will spend several hundred, if not far more, per year, and stick around, and want to see your success? I can do very basic math, and I can tell you, one option is obviously more profitable.
Venting done
What would "I" personally, ideally, like to see happen with NW? Drop a big friggen bomb on the current system. Move ALL loot into the game. Adding all the loot you have locked behind some sort of paywall, you can easily fix your rng. *****Give us reasons to run dungeons!!!!!!***** The only thing that should be able to be acquired outside of gameplay is something that is a BONUS to you. Extra rp, special "pretty" versions of mounts and companions (but IDENTICAL stat wise to their counter parts that can be acquired in game), special cosmetics, etc. (Guy riding around in my SH on a purple own bear - damn that thing is sexy, I'd pay for that, and I can, but I won't, because to even get the normal owlbear, I HAVE TO SPEND MONEY, and give me a break $50 friggen dollars, what a joke. People will buy PRETTY. Even us MEN accessorize!). Don't get me started on the broken friggen trade bar system. Everything you can look at in collection that says acquired in "lockboxes" or "taramulane trade house" just simply shows how money hungry this game is with giving very little back (rng).
Other complaints -
Items that take up 3 bag slots due to Bound to character, bound to account, and unbound. Bs tactics here. Constant "selling" gimmicks in my face Poor server stability and fps - Can I PLEASE kill dragons in WoD or tiamat at even 20fps? Constant selling gimmicks Next to no rewards for my time Constant selling gimmicks Paywalls Did I mention constant selling gimmicks? *****Yes - they are THAT bad, and NOT needed. If players WANT to spend money, they WILL spend money, and generally more so when they don't feel like the HAVE to every time to turn around to progress in the game and it's actually REWARDING and not REQUIRED!****
-My heart to heart plea to any dev reading that may or may not care-
I've stuck around because I love D&D lore, the D&D world, and love the game play of your game. You had me at hello, you honestly did. I initially spent money in the game because I didn't see how truly pay to progress this game was once you hit end game, and I wanted to support YOU, the dev team, that put out this wonderful F2P game, so it would continue to grow on PS4, and be here for years to come. I play mmo's for YEARS, not months (I still spend money on Warframe 2.5 years later!). I got my wife playing it with me, my friends, my kids LOVE to watch us kill dragons and run dungeons. NW is part of my family, it is an event for us sometimes in our house! Please, listen to ALL the feedback given by the outrage in this thread. Some of it may sting, it may hurt, but it is given by people that LOVE what you have put out, and want to see YOUR success from it, because if you succeed, we will continue to get to play a game many of us love. I have made friendships in this game that I would have probably never met if it wasn't for NW, so at least at the end of the day, Thank You, for giving me the platform to make some great friends, even if at the end of the day, we all end up having to call it quits w NW. (We've already all decided to go to FF together if this whole things continues to go bad)
But then there are two main differences: 1) you considered the numbers of chests (as a sequence of n chests having a probability p of success) to calculate the number of runs needed to see something valuable with ~100% chance. I'm interested in the number of runs before I see the first success where I've considered one or two chests in the value of p. I think that this is the main question that many players deal with.
2) The properties of the binomial distribution are the following: a: The number of trials n is fixed. b: Each trial is independent. c: Each trial represents one of two outcomes ("success" or "failure"). d: The probability of "success" p is the same for each outcome.
If I use the binomial distribution, it means that in my case the number of runs (experiments) are fixed - let's say 100 - and then I want calculate the probability of 1 success in 100 runs: that's not my question. My question is: how many runs do I have to perform before I see the first success knowing that a good loot has a probability "p" to occur? In this case the number of runs is a free parameter.
In order to answer this question, the geometric distribution applies (in fact the geometric distribution deals with independent yes/no "experiments" as well, but no fixed number of experiments). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_distribution "Consider a sequence of trials, where each trial has only two possible outcomes (designated failure and success). The probability of success is assumed to be the same for each trial. In such a sequence of trials, the geometric distribution is useful to model the number of failures before the first success. The distribution gives the probability that there are zero failures before the first success, one failure before the first success, two failures before the first success, and so on." where the number of failure = number of runs before the first success. The distribution says that the probability of a new failure (if p is very low) decreases very slowly when the number of runs increases. In other words it says that after a number of runs something happens, but this number can be very very high (i.e. very expensive).
A good property of the geometric distribution is that the mean and the variance don't depend on the number of runs if you know the probability of a success. It means that the behavior of the RNG can be described by the mean and (more important) the variance of the distribution if p is known. As I wrote, the variance generates the feeling of injustice. As an example I found the orcus shard at the end of my first CN run (0 failure before the first success), other players have found nothing after 200+ runs. Example. A +5 ring drop has 0.5% probability (just an assumption). The expected value of runs before the first drop is: 1/0.005 = 200. Think about FBI: that means 133 hours playing before having a good drop (considering an optimistic 40 mins run time). The variance is = (1-0.005)/(0.005)^2 = 39.800 -> Standard deviation is (39.800)^(1/2) = ~ +/- 200 runs It means that there is no surprise if some players see the first success in 400 runs.
Btw, it's not a coincidence that the formula you wrote 1 - (1-p)^n is the cumulated distribution function of a geometric distribution. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that I followed a different approach.
Post edited by rapo973 on
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
Frankly, at this point there are only two things I want to hear from the developer. 1. They are scrapping the key change or 2. They are DRASTICALLY improving the loot in those chests AT THE SAME TIME as the "bug fix" goes in.
I am going renew my VIP one more time. But if neither of these things happens then that will be the last money I spend on this game.
The peaking chest in dungeon is not a bug. That is so absurd, it only tells every one that you want money. You are forcing players to buy zen when zen is already worth so less per dollar spent. If you roll with this update the rare items in every dungeon should increase significantly and savaging items should be up as well to compensate. Also there should be more ways to make keys not just 1 each day or buy dragon key from zen ONLY. Please CRYPTIC DONT do this to our community otherwise your game will die rapidly, social media is more powerful than you think.
Sorry to say I think its players like me who have contributed to their mindset, I bought a number of these keys when the loot was viable, then they made the loot garbage, consequently I have a stack of ten Keys (on my main alone) that have been there for a year or more.
This data will show up to them as a lost revenue opportunity, sadly it misses the point, those keys would have been consumed if the chest contents were worth it, Horse and cart dear devs horse and cart.
Its no different to a utility, I use more gas in the winter than in the summer, why because I want to feel all warm and cosy not suffering from hypothermia. This situation just makes us feel we are out in the cold, you need to make us feel all warm and fuzzy!
Hey everyone, now that I'm back from vacation and am not drowning too terribly from emails and tasks, I will say that I totally understand your frustrations. Expect a follow up very soon.
Also, I'd like to debunk any rumors of negative things happening to the game whenever I'm on vacation. It's a mere coincidence - not one that I enjoy as I'd rather be here when these announcements happen so it doesn't follow me during my vacation.
I'd also like to thank Xeltey, my EU counterpart, for stepping in and making the announcement.
@strumslinger It appears someone is still waiting an update to the Trade Bar store.
Indeed and lets not forget the Stronghold influence re work, this company is long on commitment and short on follow through, lets see if this is the start of a new relationship with their clients!
Anyways, wanted to add... what you were doing with the keys was already disastrous, one key for one campaign?! A better design would have been one single campaign key (along with the epic chest key) that can be made through different campaigns using their currency. For example Epic Campaign Chest Key, Cost: 10 Sparks, 15 Crescents in Sharandar, 25 Scrips in Dread Ring, 10 Coins in IWD and so on. But no, you had to make money with a Legendary Dragon Key, we agreed, and now this?!
↟ This'd help make old campaign's relevant too... Essentially, Legendary Keys for Campaign Currency, one for each campaign, so you can make multiple a day, if you work for those.
That the decline button was there for those who did not want the loot, not for those who did not want to consume their key.
Back in Mod 3, keys needed AD, 10k AD I believe. You open a chest, got a Peridot (Yay!), you lost your key, would you decline? Taking that peridot and selling it would atleast get you 5% of your cost back. So, nobody, I repeat, nobody, let me be very clear, nobody will decline a chest with their key consumed, that option should NEVER EXIST if what you're saying is true. Let's say you open a Runic Lockbox, you get a Runic Insignia Pack from which you get 2 bloody uncommon Insignias (800 AD out of 62500 AD, awesome!), do you see a Decline button anywhere? Huh? Let's say you open a Coffer of Celestial Artifact Equipment, you get a Rank 4 Enchantment and a Thaumaturgic Stone, again, any Decline buttons visible? NO, because you used up whatever you used to open it and there's no reason to decline a reward that you paid for. Campaign keys now no longer require AD, but the Campaign Currency still needs effort and don't magically appear in your bags, they sure as heck ain't free. There was a reason only chests had a Decline button, cause you're allowed to decline without losing anything but time.
Anyways, what's the logic behind not being able to decline? I take the rewards, my hands are full and can't place the shiny peridot on the floor to get my key back. But, if I decide the rewards ain't worth the key, I can lock it back up and take my key with me. How's that a 'BUG'?
Conclusion, THIS is NOT a BUG! No matter what you say.
And, being a moderator, you CANNOT go around advertising 'bugs' whether or not they are condoned.
I believe I've disagreed without being disagreeable. If you can, @zebular, @ambisinisterr, @panderus, disagree without being disagreeable and I (and probably the entire community) will let it pass.
None of the devs play the game, if they did we wouldn't have this misery.
Many devs here play the game. The fact that they [apparently] don't have any power of decision doesn't mean they don't play the game.
We're talking about their inability to understand our PoV. If you ever farmed for a UD ring or relic gear, you'd know what a pain in the as* RNG BoP loot is.
What the devs don't seem to figure out is,
You should either make BoP gear that is purchasable with seals, or make BoE RNG gear. But the devs somehow combined the worst aspects of both of those into one and made BoP RNG gear. That's what sucks. All gear should be like the Twisted Offhand, it should drop (preferably BoE), if you're unlucky and it doesn't you should still be able to buy it through the runs in which you tried.
frozenfirevrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,475Community Moderator
edited October 2016
I've been suggesting BoE loot and how it was the reason people loved Mod 0 till now... But after reading @elvalianon, I've realised making gear BoE would mostly sort this problem out too, though you still might have to buff the RNG, since 4 out of 5 chests give a peridot and/or a +1/+2.
Just out of interest does this forum actually get read by the dev's as not seen comments defending this change just a multitude of long time players feeling let down and looking to leave? I dont want to come across negative as I really enjoy this game and, although clearly not as hardcore as some, have invested in this game. It would be good if there was a response to the community as to why this change is needed as it is not a bug fix as we all know. Is this a justified need to sustain the games future or just a money grab for more profit as the lack of engagement drives the latter as a conclusion? To summarise a few shared points that would possibly make this change more viable:-
1. Review special chest loot to improve the drops so that a worse case resale gives chance of 70-80% of your AD/Zen investment back. Rewards on average feel like we would spend, for example, around 20K (AD) per legendary key and maybe return just 10% on a standard drop. (finger in the air so dont quote) 2. Reduce key timers, reduce requirements to craft keys, give option to select number of keys to be made over the 20hrs. Could we make 5 keys of the same type at once?? 3. Move keys to the riches tab, not bags, but still allow access in dungeon runs 4. Make all keys account bound so that alt's could be used to support key generation.
Just a few thoughts "if" there is not going to be a change of the developers stance on this. I have no doubt some will disagree with the above and some hopefully will support but all entitled to express opinion. This change will damage the game from the fact that there will be less groups to join for grinding for those, now even more, elusive items to the price hike for the rare items as they reduce on the AH. Oh and that last point would suggest the poor drops you doget forced to take will be sold so the market will flood and price will drop making the keys even less viable.
By the way - just viewed Nova's u-tube share about this and think it sums up better than I can but think everyone who challenges this, through whatever media, will help to drive change.
Thx for reading for those that didnt get bored half way thru :-)
Comments
1) It had better be immediate. No one is going to hang around and run the new content (or old) while the rewards remain garbage and we have to accept them.
2) It had better be consistent. No one is going to put up with having to accept garbage loot EVER, AT ALL if we have no choice and keys cost significant time/resources to obtain.
3) The overhaul should extend to lockboxes. I don't know how many times my VIP key has resulted in two green insignias or maybe 5k worth of artifact RP that I don't need and can't sell but I speak for hundreds when I say I'M SICK OF IT.
4) Stop insulting our intelligence by claiming that the option to decline garbage loot was a bug. The problem was the garbage loot, not the option to decline it. You're removing the cause, but not the symptom.
Here is the link: http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1224531/a-key-compromise
Feel free to add to it and be as critical as you want. I think its a good idea but I am 1 person.
How much you guys bet "very soon" is codeword for, "We'll tell you the week that Sea of Moving Ice drops that we're going forward with the change and we're not buffing drops or doing anything worthwhile to compensate you for it."
M.K.
I would suggest to make the automatic rolls public again, so at least all players within the group know something dropped.
I also agree with the AD increase. We can only farm a certain amount of AD per day and character, we can reach the cap via 2 dungeon runs, 2 skirmish runs and 2 pvp runs. Instead of this dumb system, it should be the player's choice how he wants to reach his daily cap. Pvp players would probably run straight 6 pvp runs and dungeon hunters would go for 6 dungeons or a mix of dungeon and skirmishes.
Also, we really need epic insignias to actually drop. It's such a shame that all this stuff is only obtainable via lockboxes. Only way to get them is to cash for them (either zen or AD). We should be able to earn these. This would also be a good way to help fixing your horrible award system. There simply are no other ways of getting "awarded", other than opening lockboxes.
Same thing applies to legendary mounts. Either you cash 25 million Ad, a few hundred or thousands of bucks or try the lottery within the summer festival/ portobellos. There is literally no way to earn this kind of stuff. Either cash or be favored by Tymora. RNG is never awarding. If you win a lottery, a valuable lockbox item or an elusive rng boss drop like orcus shard, you will definitely feel lucky but not awarded.
Awards should be like boons within the campaigns, instead of this stupid rng you work and grind daily for your overall progression. You could easily install awards within the current campaign system.
I also strongly suggest that you rework the companion system. The companion system should be similiar to the current mount system. People do not choose their companions based on their favors but on the active bonuses, runestone and item slots.
And I really wished we were actually able to customize our mount and companions. One of my favorite mounts is the jubilee parade horse but dang, its armor is so ugly. I wished I could upgrade the armor and change the colors. Same thing applies to companions. One of my favorites is the phoenix aka phoera but I dislike their colors. I would love to have a black/ golden one.
Most of these suggestions have been made over and over but you guys never listen and then get together at your meetings and wonder your hamsters off how to make the game more awarding. The first step to make the game more awarding is to actually give the customer what he's looking for. Something each good company knows about.
That assumption shows a pretty thorough misunderstanding of the way they monetize games like this.
I don't know how you couldn't have digested the enormity of this situation. You guys are in damage control make no mistake, you need to make an announcement soon taking on the advice and recommendations that are within the thread. Be transparent and clear and state exactly what you're going to do to turn this around.
Check your numbers, the metrics should be in and you will see a massive decline in player numbers, players who haven't logged on, dungeons run, RMT for zen etc. Across the board, all platforms you have lost a lot of people who are or will be giving up on this game. The longer you leave it the worse it's going to be. Whoever has been responsible for these decisions needs to be removed. Time to start repairing the damage and with a little humility start winning back the trust you have completely lost from your players.
You need to improve communication and back it up with commitments, without something concrete forthcoming the damage to this game and community will only get worse and may never recover.
So this is an "official statement"?
Tbh i am an huge fan of sarcasm and ironie aswell, but this.....
I understand now, why an Part of the companie is located in Amsterdam, Netherlands, maybe you have an office in Medellin, Colombia aswell??
So you have today recieved your ordered package?
I know these behavior only from an long time Coke instead Pepsi User...
And yes this is my term of sarcasm.
Guess what, Keys are on sale in the Zen Market...
15% off while supplies last.
As was suggested by another, I would much rather the devs just fix all the bugs, loot, etc, and move over to a sub system. Hands down, the single best investment into this game is VIP membership. It is the only thing you can purchase where you don't walk away feeling bent over and raw, and you had to do it to progress in the game. This is the only thing in game that remotely feels "rewarding" to be a paying customer. The way the current system is on ps4, unless you get horribly lucky with an orcus drop, or get lucky with lockboxes, once you hit a point, you are pretty much stuck without spending loads of cash. Lord knows ELOL horn has dropped in price, along with most everything else, because so many players are stuck at ilvl 2.2-2.7k, that is where 90% of dungeon runs go, and you're dealing with a community that won't be duped into dumping money into a game anymore because it feels like they HAVE to. I HAD a guild of 70+ ppl that QUIT playing NW becuase of reasons like this.
My friend's and I absolutely love the game, but what we don't love is feeling like we HAVE to spend money to be able to progress in the game past a certain point, especially to be end game viable characters. We want to spend to feel like we are supporting a game we love playing, and what we get in return is an actual bonus, not a necessity. I don't want to sit on the AH for 2 weeks flipping stuff for minor profits for my next upgrade for a toon because I know in that 2 week time I can run dungeons until my eyes bleed, and not get a single drop that will benefit me, or actually make me ad to progress me towards my goals. Literally TWO horns have dropped for me in THREE months, and that is ALL of significant value. A big whopping 800k per horn, which doesn't get you very darn far at all, and I used on of the horns for myself!
I can give an example. Warframe. I have played since a few months of release on console, and still do to this day, along with several of my friends I play NW with. We have dropped more money into Warframe than we have NW (not just because we've played it longer, because our spending w NW is DONE w/o changes), why? (and we're talking between the group of guys that play both games with me $3k+ in that group we've spent on NW, and even more in Warframe) Because we weren't forced to, in any way, shape, or form. And we did it without stupid annoying gimmicks in our face every time we turned around, trying to make us feel like we have to spend money. Every time I turn around, I keep expecting a damn infomercial to pop up, "BUT WAIT,THERE'S MORE!" We bought stuff we actually WANTED, not HAD TO FRIGGEN HAVE! Cosmetics, pretty HAMSTER, shiny HAMSTER, HAMSTER we though that just looked really awesome and wanted even though there was no purpose to have it! At NO POINT in my time spent on Warframe I have had to spend money to stay TOP TIER end game viable, and I mean being able to compete at the VERY top, and THAT is why I will continue to support the wonderful dev's at Digital Extremes, along with their constant open lines of communication, customer service that makes you feel like you are actually valued, and devs that PARTICIPATE in the community, daily. You can pm them on the forum, tweet them, and they respond to you like you are an actual human-EFFING-being and they actually care about your input into what they are delivering to US! Why? They KNOW the PLAYERS feed THEIR FAMILIES! Without US, they would not be able to have their game they make, FOR US! EVERY "COMPANION" in that game you can acquire IN FRIGGEN GAME! EVERY ONE OF THEM! Your ships, all acquired in game. All weapons. All upgrades. EVERYTHING! See a common theme?
Do you want players that are going to come in, spend $100, if even that, then leave the game after a few months in? Or do you want players that will spend several hundred, if not far more, per year, and stick around, and want to see your success? I can do very basic math, and I can tell you, one option is obviously more profitable.
Venting done
What would "I" personally, ideally, like to see happen with NW? Drop a big friggen bomb on the current system. Move ALL loot into the game. Adding all the loot you have locked behind some sort of paywall, you can easily fix your rng. *****Give us reasons to run dungeons!!!!!!***** The only thing that should be able to be acquired outside of gameplay is something that is a BONUS to you. Extra rp, special "pretty" versions of mounts and companions (but IDENTICAL stat wise to their counter parts that can be acquired in game), special cosmetics, etc. (Guy riding around in my SH on a purple own bear - damn that thing is sexy, I'd pay for that, and I can, but I won't, because to even get the normal owlbear, I HAVE TO SPEND MONEY, and give me a break $50 friggen dollars, what a joke. People will buy PRETTY. Even us MEN accessorize!). Don't get me started on the broken friggen trade bar system. Everything you can look at in collection that says acquired in "lockboxes" or "taramulane trade house" just simply shows how money hungry this game is with giving very little back (rng).
Other complaints -
Items that take up 3 bag slots due to Bound to character, bound to account, and unbound. Bs tactics here.
Constant "selling" gimmicks in my face
Poor server stability and fps - Can I PLEASE kill dragons in WoD or tiamat at even 20fps?
Constant selling gimmicks
Next to no rewards for my time
Constant selling gimmicks
Paywalls
Did I mention constant selling gimmicks? *****Yes - they are THAT bad, and NOT needed. If players WANT to spend money, they WILL spend money, and generally more so when they don't feel like the HAVE to every time to turn around to progress in the game and it's actually REWARDING and not REQUIRED!****
-My heart to heart plea to any dev reading that may or may not care-
I've stuck around because I love D&D lore, the D&D world, and love the game play of your game. You had me at hello, you honestly did. I initially spent money in the game because I didn't see how truly pay to progress this game was once you hit end game, and I wanted to support YOU, the dev team, that put out this wonderful F2P game, so it would continue to grow on PS4, and be here for years to come. I play mmo's for YEARS, not months (I still spend money on Warframe 2.5 years later!). I got my wife playing it with me, my friends, my kids LOVE to watch us kill dragons and run dungeons. NW is part of my family, it is an event for us sometimes in our house! Please, listen to ALL the feedback given by the outrage in this thread. Some of it may sting, it may hurt, but it is given by people that LOVE what you have put out, and want to see YOUR success from it, because if you succeed, we will continue to get to play a game many of us love. I have made friendships in this game that I would have probably never met if it wasn't for NW, so at least at the end of the day, Thank You, for giving me the platform to make some great friends, even if at the end of the day, we all end up having to call it quits w NW. (We've already all decided to go to FF together if this whole things continues to go bad)
But then there are two main differences:
1) you considered the numbers of chests (as a sequence of n chests having a probability p of success) to calculate the number of runs needed to see something valuable with ~100% chance. I'm interested in the number of runs before I see the first success where I've considered one or two chests in the value of p. I think that this is the main question that many players deal with.
2) The properties of the binomial distribution are the following:
a: The number of trials n is fixed.
b: Each trial is independent.
c: Each trial represents one of two outcomes ("success" or "failure").
d: The probability of "success" p is the same for each outcome.
If I use the binomial distribution, it means that in my case the number of runs (experiments) are fixed - let's say 100 - and then I want calculate the probability of 1 success in 100 runs: that's not my question.
My question is: how many runs do I have to perform before I see the first success knowing that a good loot has a probability "p" to occur? In this case the number of runs is a free parameter.
In order to answer this question, the geometric distribution applies (in fact the geometric distribution deals with independent yes/no "experiments" as well, but no fixed number of experiments).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_distribution
"Consider a sequence of trials, where each trial has only two possible outcomes (designated failure and success). The probability of success is assumed to be the same for each trial. In such a sequence of trials, the geometric distribution is useful to model the number of failures before the first success. The distribution gives the probability that there are zero failures before the first success, one failure before the first success, two failures before the first success, and so on."
where the number of failure = number of runs before the first success. The distribution says that the probability of a new failure (if p is very low) decreases very slowly when the number of runs increases. In other words it says that after a number of runs something happens, but this number can be very very high (i.e. very expensive).
A good property of the geometric distribution is that the mean and the variance don't depend on the number of runs if you know the probability of a success.
It means that the behavior of the RNG can be described by the mean and (more important) the variance of the distribution if p is known. As I wrote, the variance generates the feeling of injustice. As an example I found the orcus shard at the end of my first CN run (0 failure before the first success), other players have found nothing after 200+ runs.
Example.
A +5 ring drop has 0.5% probability (just an assumption).
The expected value of runs before the first drop is: 1/0.005 = 200. Think about FBI: that means 133 hours playing before having a good drop (considering an optimistic 40 mins run time).
The variance is = (1-0.005)/(0.005)^2 = 39.800 -> Standard deviation is (39.800)^(1/2) = ~ +/- 200 runs
It means that there is no surprise if some players see the first success in 400 runs.
Btw, it's not a coincidence that the formula you wrote 1 - (1-p)^n is the cumulated distribution function of a geometric distribution. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that I followed a different approach.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
I am going renew my VIP one more time. But if neither of these things happens then that will be the last money I spend on this game.
This is really intersting.
@mimicking#6533 @strumslinger
The peaking chest in dungeon is not a bug. That is so absurd, it only tells every one that you want money. You are forcing players to buy zen when zen is already worth so less per dollar spent. If you roll with this update the rare items in every dungeon should increase significantly and savaging items should be up as well to compensate. Also there should be more ways to make keys not just 1 each day or buy dragon key from zen ONLY. Please CRYPTIC DONT do this to our community otherwise your game will die rapidly, social media is more powerful than you think.
This data will show up to them as a lost revenue opportunity, sadly it misses the point, those keys would have been consumed if the chest contents were worth it, Horse and cart dear devs horse and cart.
Its no different to a utility, I use more gas in the winter than in the summer, why because I want to feel all warm and cosy not suffering from hypothermia. This situation just makes us feel we are out in the cold, you need to make us feel all warm and fuzzy!
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1224545/dungeon-key-change-feedback-how-to-solve-the-problem-imo/p1?new=1
1. Review special chest loot to improve the drops so that a worse case resale gives chance of 70-80% of your AD/Zen investment back. Rewards on average feel like we would spend, for example, around 20K (AD) per legendary key and maybe return just 10% on a standard drop. (finger in the air so dont quote)
2. Reduce key timers, reduce requirements to craft keys, give option to select number of keys to be made over the 20hrs. Could we make 5 keys of the same type at once??
3. Move keys to the riches tab, not bags, but still allow access in dungeon runs
4. Make all keys account bound so that alt's could be used to support key generation.
Just a few thoughts "if" there is not going to be a change of the developers stance on this. I have no doubt some will disagree with the above and some hopefully will support but all entitled to express opinion. This change will damage the game from the fact that there will be less groups to join for grinding for those, now even more, elusive items to the price hike for the rare items as they reduce on the AH. Oh and that last point would suggest the poor drops you doget forced to take will be sold so the market will flood and price will drop making the keys even less viable.
By the way - just viewed Nova's u-tube share about this and think it sums up better than I can but think everyone who challenges this, through whatever media, will help to drive change.
Thx for reading for those that didnt get bored half way thru :-)