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Dungeon Key Changes



  • deterrant#6687 deterrant Member Posts: 172 Arc User
    I just sent a post to WotC, and will be sending posts to PWE and Hasbro too.

    I suggest you make your own posts to them too.

    But be civil about it, swearing and ranting dont do anything.

    Just point out the issues at hand and what have been the issues of past months.

    As they are a part of this games development and resourses.
    You should point out to them how you feel, we as customers and players are being treated and how the game is being treated.
  • jaysun1977jaysun1977 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 177 Arc User
    edited October 2016

    However I don't much pay mind to labels such as that. Seriously I never bother to look at what the developers of any game label something as. Labeling should be apparent in the actions the item does regardless of the arbitrary labeling of something

    Go and read again, what you wrote. Let it sink in and then follow me to the next round:

    Looking at the description of the original Dungeon Chest Keys: "allows you to open..."
    Not labelled consumable but it allows you to "open" the chest. Not allows you to take the loot. It allows you to open the chest.

    Now, suddenly the label is important? But even here all you do is play with semantics, as it still doesn't say "consumed on opening a chest". I can use a key as many times as I please with an actual key.

    Now, granted, I don't expect it in a video game, but I can reasonably expect, if a given article behaves a certain way, over the entirety of its existence, that that is the intended behaviour as long as it makes sense in the context. And it makes sense for a key, that needs investment and /or actual money to aquire to be tied to the reward system, not the opening mechanics. As such, it makes perfect sense that the key is used up in TRADE for the desired reward.

    Thus it is a reasonable assumption (lacking actual feedback from the game itself) that the intended use is to use keys to peek and to only consume them when loot of a satisfying quality was available and subsequently taken by the player. ESPECIALLY given the horrible loot tables this game has in general since Mod 6!

    So, kindly take your sophistry and take it where the sun don't sine!

    The players who created the wiki pages obviously noticed they were consumable.
    And yeah, they were edited a few days ago after this announcement but looking back thought the history they always opened with "The < Key > is a consumable key that can be created..." :)

    Take your sneer remark and shove it! How can you drag your condescending self here and wave the PLAYER WRITTEN wiki in our face? That thing is:

    a) occasionally incorrect
    b) largely outdated

    Your dishonesty and disingenuity is mind boggling! You are so obvious a shill it disgusts me!

    Logically it was a bug but that doesn't change the fact the reason people are upset, minus the poor wording, is that the loot doesn't make players feel the loot is worth the costs of the key or that they do not trust or want to trust that improvements will come after this announcement. In order for people to buy in to the idea of this fix they need to see the plans to improve loot first.

    And still you pretend not to understand. It's not just they keys, or whether it is a bug or not. It's not only the loot table, it is the way Cryptic (and PWE for that matter) treats is customers. Constant dishonesty, treating costumers like they were idiots and barely veiled cash grabs galore! And in return: next to nothing. The few good things (like FBI) are drowned out by the many horrible design choices (like FBI loot, Voninblood, Relic Gear, Lanolin Farming, Fishing, way too many HEs...) and especially the latter obvious cash grabs. Sure, Cryptic is a business and needs to make money to run severs and to pay staff, but lazy behaviour, copy-paste jobs and asset recycling is NOT worth a lot of money. If you want to earn money, you need to sell a product people are willing to pay for. The worst way to achieve that is by alienating your customer base, the go-to strategy for Cryptic.

    The key change is merely the last straw that broke the camels back and by no means the sole problem! So, I would appreciate it, if you could stop acting like a shill for just a moment and let the reasonable people talk instead.
  • kuero21kuero21 Member Posts: 454 Arc User

    [...]but the incompetent people at Vanilla decided to break more features [...]

    Hmm... What does this remind me of? Oh, yeah!
  • krasensilverkrasensilver Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 27 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    its bug or not players dont trust you anymore not for just this change but you doing awful changes since mod 6 over and over again and you not listening us and more important I have no hope you can fix that by just improving loots coz I dont trust you at all. Lets say loots improved but I have bad luck and not getting anything I want I would think you decreased loots without saying anything to us coz thats what I expect from you now on. If there was a poll about how much players trust devs so I'm so sure you cant see ten percent. You cant fix that trust issue with minor changes on loots or useless bribes since you ruining this game so long time you have many things to fix and better to start somewhere and keep us informed
  • imperiousshiniimperiousshini Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 199 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    With nerfs incoming and chest useless loot, without being able to peek inside and decide if you want to take it, how do you expect players to adapt to those changes? How will they make money?Buying legendary keys will make them only poor and sad since they will be fooled by the chance of a never coming good loot!

    I've played CN dungeons more than 500 times without being VIP it would take me 500 days for a never coming bis artifact
  • deterrant#6687 deterrant Member Posts: 172 Arc User
    Ok, if the devs are reading this heres so me feedback

    Next week, drop the chest change into preview and the forwarding drop rate changes, ad a loot-table that shows what you can get and the drop % chance.

    Make an emergency stream, to tell us directly where you stand at the moment on these things

    -Loot, are you just gonna push the key change without making adjustment to loot. Or are you going to release them SIMULTANEOUSLY when we have evaluated it on Preview.
    -More Dungeons?
    -The gear/powers loadouts feature
    -Dual Spec, no it does not mean loadouts, it means to be able to have 2 different class builds within 1 class. This can be explained to you by us in more detail. But as mimicking has played WoW he knows about it
    -Several bugs still hindering class performance
    -Class Balance continuity

    There are several other issues but those i could throw here in a few seconds.

    Now is the time for the devs to make the communication promise come true.
  • hanniballa#2401 hanniballa Member Posts: 74 Arc User

    It's an opportunity to focus the discussion on helping Cryptic know what players think would be a balanced approach. Let's use it wisely.

    You guys keep phrasing things along these lines. You want the discussion to go into a different direction, while the feedback has been clear. If they're reading the 40+ pages then they know what we want, we don't want this change. It's a disaster, I've had guild mates quit over this. The reddit, other sites, they're all saying the same thing, we don't want this change.

    In the past we've offered tremendous levels of feedback. It never seems to do any good. We said we wanted coal wards in the trade bar, we said we wanted the old dungeons back, we said we wanted the leveling skirmishes as CTAs, PVP fixed, BOE epic drops, ect.

    We've already given you guys our feedback. How about you guys do something with it?

  • silverkeltsilverkelt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,235 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    They have ignored feedback for the last few months including mod 10 grind/gating levels. so what does it matter.

    We all feel defeated , they have beat us all down.

    Its I guess the decision that is next for many of us.

    It is terribly freeing to leave a mmo I will tell you that.. Ive done it several times. Usually take 5-6 months off and just enjoy actual life again. Puts games into perspective. If you are complementing that road, there might be a guide on how to quit the game right over at the site that shall not be named, there is a post about it already.

  • deterrant#6687 deterrant Member Posts: 172 Arc User
    Mods, we have given plenty of feedback, moderate, that is your job. If you dont have any viable feedback to give in this discussion and issue, stay away and moderate.
  • deterrant#6687 deterrant Member Posts: 172 Arc User
    And who is the current community manager stand-in?

    Who should be picking up the feedback and forwarding it to the devs.

    Raise your hand, please. So we know youre here at least.
  • beadinbeadin Member Posts: 20 Arc User
    They don't need us to tell them; they need to play their own game to see all that's wrong currently. They should start a Let's Play series, so we can watch their progression. Start at level 1, progress to unlock all their boons and complete FBI on a standard MMO amount of money (1500 or 2000 Zen a month) and 3-4 hours a day. No Dev tools or shortcuts. Let's all see how long it takes. Can they do it before Mod 15?
  • deterrant#6687 deterrant Member Posts: 172 Arc User
    beadin said:

    They don't need us to tell them; they need to play their own game to see all that's wrong currently. They should start a Let's Play series, so we can watch their progression. Start at level 1, progress to unlock all their boons and complete FBI on a standard MMO amount of money (1500 or 2000 Zen a month) and 3-4 hours a day. No Dev tools or shortcuts. Let's all see how long it takes. Can they do it before Mod 15?

    Drop that zen to 1000/month and hours to 2/day, 3-4 on weekends, even thats a stretch. That would be fine.

    Good idea by the way, i think mimicking is currently doing this on some toons.
  • talon1970talon1970 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 152 Arc User
    zebular said:

    talon1970 said:

    So here is my "exploiting history":

    - Started playing a few days before caturday, everytime i entered PE i was asked if i want a cat...a cat...CATS EVERYWHERE!!
    I declined

    - Mod1 Sharandar went live, coming home from work, everywhere Admin messages ..."xxxx has acquired an Mystic Nightmare" i had bought with real cash some keys, i declined opening lockboxes, bc it was obviously an bug.

    - Arcane Reservoir i declined sharing with people these Quest at the beginning from Mod1 bc again it felt like a bug and a lot of people getting banned.

    - Feywild Ioun Stone: A guild member bought Zen with cash and was getting the Feywild Stone as an accountwide Reward. One evening after an patch day, there was an bug that these Stone was not accountwide, it was free.
    He asked me if i want some for my chars, I declined, bc it was clearly an bug. He recieved an perma ban, my normal terror enchant, wich i gave him until he was able to build one for himself was gone too. I declined to write a ticket bc it was my own fault.

    - Mod5 Trickster Rouge Rework: I declined changing my perfect vorpal against my perfect Plaguefire, bc SoD was bugged and i didn't want to outdps guildmates by 2x, 3x or 4x.

    - Death Slaad: All of my guildmates declined opening the pack to get one, bc again and again it was an bug and we know that.
    (To be clear some of us opened it for the collection and then they thrown him away.)

    Sure i have forgotten some things, but now i am standing here:

    Called as an exploiter bc i declined wasting keys for an reward, that is not worth it.

    If i was threatening customers in my job in that way, i am sure they would never ever call again my company again for the next time, and if my boss figured out i was the reason bc of unfriendly behavior, doing terrible mistakes and so on, i am pretty sure that these was my last day at work.

    Sorry for my bad english.

    The only people calling it an exploit are players, mainly those trying to spin a negative connotation on its use or point fingers in shame and to use as a means to justify their argument. It was never deemed an exploit, it was deemed an acceptable bug. If such is an exploit, then people logging in to the game while there was a bug with the UI that didn't display their characters would be an exploit. Just because a bug exists, it doesn't mean it is an exploit. I suggest to stop labeling yourself as an exploiter for something that was never deemed an exploit by the game staff. The only ones calling it an exploit are the players and all this labeling and shaming just proves my point as to why we were asked to not call it a bug years ago, for it is clear people will misconstrue that and label as an exploit it for their own agenda.

    Sorry to disappoint you but for me, there is no difference between an exploiter, buguser or cheater.

    So the devs made the decission to call it an bug, and i don't waste any key for something i was thinking it is not worth to do that.
    So i was for an long time an buguser, exploiter, cheater call it as you want.....fine.
    Finally i know now what the devy are thinking about us as be an good sheep and not an wolf.
    Maybe (if i am standing to the game, infact there are more reasons for me still playing bc of the people i am playing with and not the game itself) i change some of my confidence and become an wolf too, instead of staying an idiotic sheep.

    The devs sow the wind and reap the whirlwind.
  • bitt3rnightmar3bitt3rnightmar3 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 788 Arc User
    panderus said:

    I don't think there is anything I can say that would assuage anyone at this time other than, "We are rolling back the changes." I can't make that call but all of the feedback we have received and HOW it was received is certainly noted. I will certainly talk to some people about the reaction.

    I just want to be clear, I am not promising anything, I am just stating, "you have been heard."

    Thank you @panderus for sticking your neck out into this. I am looking forward to hearing more about this and other changes that are planned.

    I know you're just the guy doing the 9-5 not someone who calls the shots so- thanks for what you guys do.

    Relmyna - AC/DC Righteous + Haste| Nadine - CW MoF (working on it)|Buffy - GF SM Tact| Hrist - Justice Tankadin|Healadin (Wannabe Tank)| Lena -MI Sabo TR (Farmer) | Jeska - GWF SM Destroyer (Farmer) | Maggie - HR PF Trapper (Wannabe DPS)
    I'll never retrace my steps.

    Some of my best friends are Imaginary.

  • greyhawk#1973 greyhawk Member Posts: 236 Arc User
    Panderus said we were heard. Not that anyone other then him had even bothered to read this thread. There is zero trust that this group can or will do anything that actually benefits the players. All they've done is remove features and nerf things that made this game enjoyable.

    Please don't tell us that the powers that be are carefully studying this thread, when all we've seen are two dinky posts from one dev, and he said he can't change anything but he'll 'lets them know'...

    My very active guild is completely disillusioned with how this game is progressing and a lot have quit outright. And we just got mod 10 and some of our hard cores are already sick of the campaign.

    They need to do SO MUCH MORE than just revert this change. The game IS DIEING! They need a complete revamp of soon many things, and they still won't have the trust of the players. Many of my friends are already gone, and I doubt they'll come back for an increase in drops. Keeping the key or not. This is just the tip of a very large iceberg.

    Show radical changes very soon, or kiss a great many paying customers goodbye. Heck, one guy said that a lot of ps4 players are feeling the bait and switch and they're new to the game.

    FIX THE GAME, please :)
  • luks707luks707 Member Posts: 230 Arc User
    edited October 2016

    Most of us have had a chance to vent by now. If you're just joining the discussion, feel free to do your venting. For the rest of us, let's try and focus the discussion on productive ways forward.

    I'm not trying to close down the discussion with this statement. On the contrary. Cryptic is spending time reading this thread, looking for a way forward that meets their design objectives and also the needs of their customers. It's an opportunity to focus the discussion on helping Cryptic know what players think would be a balanced approach. Let's use it wisely.

    I think on the whole my comments have been constructive - pointing how inadequate their communications have been is not just venting - it is a direct request for different behaviour now and in future.. But anyway to summarise the design objectives I would like them to achieve here's a constructive list:
    1. Write a communications strategy. And write one that communicates openly and clearly. Make sure that if you are changing things that look you are taking something away from players, but you will actually be improving their situation you make clear what the positive change will be BEFORE you announce the negative change.
    2. Acknowledge your failing on this one. Only if you show that you understand how badly you got this wrong are people going to consider trusting you again and hence invest in your product. Buying anything in an MMO is all about trust - After all - you could shut down the game down at any point like you did with the gateway, dungeons etc.
    3. Make DUNGEONS the focus of the game and running them the key to making money in this game. Make them rewarding and fun and make the rewards proportionate to the time spent in doing them. Bring back the old ones. Make it so you can't bot levelling dungeons.
    4. Give people choice and options both in terms of builds (meaningful different ways to play) and cosmetically. It's depressing that you have enchants that completely obscure your choice of clothes, weapons etc.
    5. Finally - be OPEN about what bugs there are, what is considered an exploit, what you are working on etc.

    Oh - this change is not a good idea. If you really want to force us to use our keys more - give the non zen market keys an expiry timer of 30 days once claimed (thanks Miz for that suggestion) forcing us to use them regularly. Everything else makes multi runs impossible or at least unlikely. Unless of course you reaaaally drop the Zen price of legendary dragon keys.
  • checkmatein3checkmatein3 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 525 Arc User
    Here is my suggestion:

    Hire the programmers from Gloria Victis.

    Now, most would never want the realism of Gloria Victis in the DnD realm, but the motto of the game designers is:
    Gloria Victis, made by gamers with gamers for gamers.

    How about that! Now show us that! Show us with decisions where I am more than my wallet!
    LEVIATHAN--19.3k Metallic Dragonborn Guardian Fighter Swordmaster Loadouts

    Guild--And the Imaginary Friends

  • bigredbrentbigredbrent Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    I still think my ideas about how to fix Neverwinter would be great for everyone:
  • chefuggerchefugger Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    This announcement isn't the worst I read. But 6/10 for trying.

    Since there is a lot wrong with the current loot system (mostly rng, rng and rng - also some rng within rng), I'm willing to listen to any suggestion on how to change it. This includes this announcement. However, It's somewhat unfortunate to say "from tomorrow on you have to bring your own carrot". Australians may call this Release "Neverwinter BYOC".

    Over time I, and I guess others too, have recognized, that not every change we as players wished for was good for the game. Dungeon Delves was horrible, but looting CN 10 times before breakfast doesn't help balancing loot (in an average player friendly way) either.

    Thinking about the huge difference between a new char who is looking for a group to run VT (successfully) maybe once a day after work, and a bis player who is working in game 10h a day, I simply have no answer on how to make everyone happy and not hurting the ig economy.

    The current system with small but steady ad somewhat works. Changing to a 50 ZEN key may require better loot. Probably not every time, but in average (maybe 20k AD+?). For a somewhat newly character this might be a huge gamble. Getting a bad loot throws such a player back a few days. IMHO nothing we should look for. Also adding "Jack Pots" to chest (like legi mounts - there is some demand according to ah prices...) would simply apply a lockbox mechanic to a dungeon chest for ½ the price. I would hate it!

    Maybe the loot will not be improved, and the whole idea is to discourage people from running too many dungeons a day to ensure a somewhat more equal loot distribution between players. Less chests opened may allow higher chances for better loot soon (tm). IDK.

    Fact is, communication is still lousy even for a gaming company. No hint on what the goal of such a change is and why it might be a good idea. Players first thought is "cash grab", speculations go wild, attitude towards the game dives off a cliff, people rage quit, no one wins. Kinda sad to see how hard some people try to not learn.

    To end with a positive: I opened a chest with a key I bought at the 50% event for only 2,5k ad. After doing a few prayers over a couple hours, I got 4k ad out of the dungeon run. That's more than 50% profit. One day I'll be winning Neverwinter. Soon (tm).
  • rafaeldarafaelda Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 666 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    The Boss loots and

    Most of us have had a chance to vent by now. If you're just joining the discussion, feel free to do your venting. For the rest of us, let's try and focus the discussion on productive ways forward.

    I'm not trying to close down the discussion with this statement. On the contrary. Cryptic is spending time reading this thread, looking for a way forward that meets their design objectives and also the needs of their customers. It's an opportunity to focus the discussion on helping Cryptic know what players think would be a balanced approach. Let's use it wisely.

    OK so if you read verthing till now you alredy got a few things must of the posts are asking.

    1-) Reduced Price for special Keys (ZEN and Currency), and Key produce time too;
    2-) Best drops on Dungeon special chests, enough to make building or buying Keys for every run viablle option...
    3-) Let us test the change before it went live server so we can see the loot and new Keys prices Zen and camp. currency

    I agree with all above but also:

    4-) Less Keys
    I Think everyone will agreed that we have too many Keys, we could have only 2 special Keys that could be made in any campaings:
    Lesser Special Key (blue) for any blue level Dungeon or Skirmish (ELOL, ESOT. TODG, Normal Demo etc..)
    Greater Special Key (purple) for hight Tier purple stuff (Epic Edmo, Tiamat, ETOS, EGWD etc...)
    Make it 3 if you need something fot 3.1K gears Score but not more than that pls, this way we could chose what to run without have to farm older campaings, because Dungeons are done by 5 person and having the same Key will be hard if they start to be single use.

    Sorry for the Bad english
  • tripsofthrymrtripsofthrymr Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,624 Community Moderator
    rafaelda said:

    Sorry for the Bad english

    Your English is just fine. Those are good thoughts.
    Caritas Guild Founder (Greycloak Alliance)

    Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
  • groglastgroglast Member Posts: 28 Arc User
    edited October 2016
    It's really hard to give feedback to the devs without feedback from the devs in response about what's right and what's wrong with our ideas.

    Honestly the number one thing I think the devs could do at this point is come through on their promise about better communication. Interact and engage with the forum users frequently if not daily in threads that aren't obviously trolling or flaming threads. So many things go unresponded to. Respond to them.

    We know someone from Cryptic is reading this and considering it hard. Who? Why won't they engage? I get it...they know there will be a ton of heat. There will be frustration and many angry, probably rule breaking posts. But it needs to happen. They need to toughen up and stick it out and work through it with us, and eventually if they stay on course over time then it'll probably get better. But that will never happen unless they start engaging with the forum very frequently.
  • trivialrage#6656 trivialrage Member Posts: 67 Arc User
    Simple answer to this problem, let a stop buying zen if they make this change. I have spent hundreds on this game(dont tell my wife) and can easily spend more. I almost always use a key, because I can. Simply put..I am ok paying to win, I don't hAve the time to grind. If this change is implemented I will no longer buy zen. If this change is implemented the f2p crowd will leave, then the people who spend a lot of money will leave. This change will put this game on life support, a large population of ps4 has already left. Given the choice to spend money I will every time, of you force me to spend money...I'm out.
  • jaysun1977jaysun1977 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 177 Arc User
    kalindra said:

    insulting customers, trying to force them the do economical stupid things while stating the decision to further implement on widely hated aspects and not fixing any real bugs and issues, is an explosive combination.

  • callofkutulucallofkutulu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 56 Arc User

    .....Cryptic is spending time reading this thread, looking for a way forward that meets their design objectives......

    Let's start right there... what are the design objectives? A nice technical answer not some marketing white wash with spin.
  • tragedy414#5517 tragedy414 Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    I'm sure this has already been posted.. But what about the topic made 2 years ago, specifically indicating to just "decline" if you don't like the contents and it will allow you to keep your key. Wouldn't this, at that time, sprung the whole "This wasn't meant to be" idea?
This discussion has been closed.