I'd make all professions tasks take 30 seconds. Then I'd limit the "good" tasks by making their resources only available once a day or once a week. The gameplay of crafting should be gathering the ingredients. Currently the gameplay is employee management and robot bosses are outperforming humans.
Limiting the good tasks is sort of the route the old Dreadring/Sharandar weapons and Masterwork tasks have taken in the past and I feel have had good results by 'costing' the player to do some amount of gameplay first.
I'd make all professions tasks take 30 seconds. Then I'd limit the "good" tasks by making their resources only available once a day or once a week. The gameplay of crafting should be gathering the ingredients. Currently the gameplay is employee management and robot bosses are outperforming humans.
Limiting the good tasks is sort of the route the old Dreadring/Sharandar weapons and Masterwork tasks have taken in the past and I feel have had good results by 'costing' the player to do some amount of gameplay first.
@panderus One part that I absolutely loved about the game was using the crafting professions to create rare and powerful items via drops from the dungeons.
I wish this route would be re-examined as a way to make professions more valuable and worthwhile, but also to add more value back to dungeon drops. I remember the excitement of finally being able to craft my BiS Malabog's and later Fallen Dragon weapon set, as well as how good it felt to see one of theses pieces drop for the group, and actually being able to sell and split some worthwhile proceeds between everyone.
Such a good time from back in the day, and I would highly, highly encourage you to keep looking at things like this.
How can you make professions rewarding for those who are using them to supplement their game play, not substitute for game play? That's the magic question.
Have you guys forgotten already that a lot of people use the gateway to do professions and other things because they do not have a lot of time to play via the game client? Are you really going to screw all these people over by gating professions behind forced gameplay? You will ruin the professions system if you do that. And masterwork tasks are not a good thing to use as a reference. I myself have played this game for months and I haven't had access to masterwork tasks because I didn't join a big guild.
Well if the web and the internet are not secure enough for gateway, maybe they can make a software that runs on low specs thats more secure and you can log on to your account and manage AH and professions!!!
I've never understood why people don't understand that botting is in fact cheating.
Because it's not always real cheating. The people who wrote a script for starting their professions aren't doing anything you can't do. They just do it hands-free using existing technology. They gain nothing more in return than you do. It's the same difference between typing a message and dictating one to Siri: Siri, open < URL > and click my left mouse. That's basically the entire script. Nothing illegal there I think. Using AH scripting to keep undercutting people by 1 AD however or Dissemble existing programs and scripts in order to abuse them is an entirely different matter.
I'm sure the objective behind the system on how professions is set up, was not meant to be abused by the use of scripting. The normal everyday person can not religiously start a new task on professions every 1, 2, 4, hours straight 7 seven days a week like a script can. On several different Toons to boot. The realism is just not there for that scenerio for everybody to be able to do that. So in fact using a script would be and is considered cheating.
Boils down to the saying "just because you can, doesn't mean you should"
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tripsofthrymrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,624Community Moderator
Well if the web and the internet are not secure enough for gateway, maybe they can make a software that runs on low specs thats more secure and you can log on to your account and manage AH and professions!!!
You can't log in without the internet. The game client uses it too. The game client can also be botted just the same as the gateway can (I think the very slow reaction times of the login server these days speak to that).
I've never understood why people don't understand that botting is in fact cheating.
Because it's not always real cheating. The people who wrote a script for starting their professions aren't doing anything you can't do. They just do it hands-free using existing technology. They gain nothing more in return than you do. It's the same difference between typing a message and dictating one to Siri: Siri, open < URL > and click my left mouse. That's basically the entire script. Nothing illegal there I think. Using AH scripting to keep undercutting people by 1 AD however or Dissemble existing programs and scripts in order to abuse them is an entirely different matter.
I'm sure the objective behind the system on how professions is set up, was not meant to be abused by the use of scripting. The normal everyday person can not religiously start a new task on professions every 1, 2, 4, hours straight 7 seven days a week like a script can. On several different Toons to boot. The realism is just not there for that scenerio for everybody to be able to do that. So in fact using a script would be and is considered cheating.
Boils down to the saying "just because you can, doesn't mean you should"
The high yield task are 12 hours, 16 hours and then 8 hours. I use the 4 hours as filler so that I can start a long one before bed time. You don't need a script if you only do that twice or 3 times daily. At least, I don't and I don't use a script and that is why I care about 'back page'.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
I have to agree with some that this is as much a design issue as a botting issue. Professions are botted because it's a repetitive task in which the tasks with a shorter duration also grant more rewards. That has to stop. No human individual can start tasks every four hours, two hours, one hour, 30 minutes. So why do they even exist? I'm sure there are other ways to reward activity. Most players prefer the long Leaderhsip tasks anyway so they can forget about professions for a day or whatever.
This is a very astute observation and one we feel strongly about as well in discussions the future and past of Professions.
The tasks most people run take ~12 hours though. The problem comes more from people wanting more than they can chew. Someone running 51+ characters with epic laborers on every single one wants the rewards but doesn't want to spend hours a day resetting tasks.
The people who wrote a script for starting their professions aren't doing anything you can't do. They just do it hands-free using existing technology. They gain nothing more in return than you do.
Anyone who is able to change over their professions exactly as efficiently as a script is arguably performing at superhuman levels. The script can catch everything exactly as soon as it finishes all day every day, never needs to sleep, never needs to pay attention to anything else, never gets bored, never decides to go to the pub instead of babysit mouseclicks.
Every time a human operator loses uptime on running professions around the clock because of the limitations of their body and mind, they are less efficient than having it automated.
That's way beyond my scope. I only stated "starting professions". The URL is clearly visible and you abuse nothing. But yes, when you go that far you cross the line and it's actual cheating. Had the URLs been hidden and you had to take them by following 50 AJAX scripts it would also be cheating. Merely starting professions using an URL script is not something bad and puts no more strain on the server than if you did it by hand. In fact, you could do it in such a way that the server would never know the difference. That's the limit I suppose. It has to be "impossible by intended means" for it to be cheating.
Cheating generally infers that someone is using something not included in the game itself to gain an advantage over other players or using an exploit to do something the devs don't intend you to do. The amount of strain it puts on the servers has nothing to do with whether or not its cheating.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,224Arc User
Well if the web and the internet are not secure enough for gateway, maybe they can make a software that runs on low specs thats more secure and you can log on to your account and manage AH and professions!!!
That has nothing to do with security. The bot has a "valid" login and password.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
I have to agree with some that this is as much a design issue as a botting issue. Professions are botted because it's a repetitive task in which the tasks with a shorter duration also grant more rewards. That has to stop. No human individual can start tasks every four hours, two hours, one hour, 30 minutes. So why do they even exist? I'm sure there are other ways to reward activity. Most players prefer the long Leaderhsip tasks anyway so they can forget about professions for a day or whatever.
This is a very astute observation and one we feel strongly about as well in discussions the future and past of Professions.
Sounds like a major change to Professions is coming.
I've never understood why people don't understand that botting is in fact cheating.
Because it's not always real cheating. The people who wrote a script for starting their professions aren't doing anything you can't do. They just do it hands-free using existing technology. They gain nothing more in return than you do. It's the same difference between typing a message and dictating one to Siri: Siri, open < URL > and click my left mouse. That's basically the entire script. Nothing illegal there I think. Using AH scripting to keep undercutting people by 1 AD however or Dissemble existing programs and scripts in order to abuse them is an entirely different matter.
Crock of kittens. All botting is cheating. Period.
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bumfluffbobMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 46Arc User
@panderus : A good addition to professions would be these until you figure out how to do the system more "friendly":
- A way to open all carried boxes in inventory at once. I just opened 300 Arti bags... my mouse is imploring mercy.
.
I have set one of my function keys to toggle auto repeat left mouse clicks every 15ms. I open a box, place the mouse cursor over the "open another" button, then hit f11. Once all the boxes are open I press f11 again. Does that make me an 'in-game botter'?
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kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
@panderus : A good addition to professions would be these until you figure out how to do the system more "friendly":
- A way to open all carried boxes in inventory at once. I just opened 300 Arti bags... my mouse is imploring mercy.
.
I have set one of my function keys to toggle auto repeat left mouse clicks every 15ms. I open a box, place the mouse cursor over the "open another" button, then hit f11. Once all the boxes are open I press f11 again. Does that make me an 'in-game botter'?
Technically, yes. I don't know for sure Cryptic/PWE's policies concerning this, but I know most MMOs have a rule - 1 click, 1 action.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
@panderus : A good addition to professions would be these until you figure out how to do the system more "friendly":
- A way to open all carried boxes in inventory at once. I just opened 300 Arti bags... my mouse is imploring mercy.
.
I have set one of my function keys to toggle auto repeat left mouse clicks every 15ms. I open a box, place the mouse cursor over the "open another" button, then hit f11. Once all the boxes are open I press f11 again. Does that make me an 'in-game botter'?
Technically, yes. I don't know for sure Cryptic/PWE's policies concerning this, but I know most MMOs have a rule - 1 click, 1 action.
PWE's policies are pretty broard. If they wanted to they could ban someone for it. They usually don't because it's pretty hard to prove unless they catch you using third party software like autohotkey.
I have to agree with some that this is as much a design issue as a botting issue. Professions are botted because it's a repetitive task in which the tasks with a shorter duration also grant more rewards. That has to stop. No human individual can start tasks every four hours, two hours, one hour, 30 minutes. So why do they even exist? I'm sure there are other ways to reward activity. Most players prefer the long Leaderhsip tasks anyway so they can forget about professions for a day or whatever.
This is a very astute observation and one we feel strongly about as well in discussions the future and past of Professions.
Man.. this is discouraging. Please don't twist Professions into easy peasy click things... the more people that do professions.. the mess profitable it will be... it will become a meaningless part of the game. I know... financially, this might help you guys twist our arms and pigeon hole us into buying Zen.. but it will ROB this game of yet another unique and interesting aspect. of game play.
One thing that has always been a ray of sunshine to me is that NW is one of those rare games where Crafting actually MATTERS...
Tasks with a shorter duration had more value because it required you to be in game more to actually capitalize on that fact. This was kinda a reward for no lifers like me . Added benefits to the game company because it motivated more people to be in game more (or at least like with me.. on TS, accessible to my guildies more) instead of me being bored out of my mind and tinkering with other games or activities to keep myself entertained.
“Improvise, Adapt and Overcome!”
― Clint Eastwood, Heartbreak Ridge
Guild Leader of Ardent Justice HQ: Always recruiting People not Pixels.
I'd make all professions tasks take 30 seconds. Then I'd limit the "good" tasks by making their resources only available once a day or once a week. The gameplay of crafting should be gathering the ingredients. Currently the gameplay is employee management and robot bosses are outperforming humans.
Limiting the good tasks is sort of the route the old Dreadring/Sharandar weapons and Masterwork tasks have taken in the past and I feel have had good results by 'costing' the player to do some amount of gameplay first.
Glad you are interacting with the community.. sad you think enslaving people is a way to make this game more enjoyable. IF this is to counter-balance the botting effect on Cryptic/PWE's income.. then that's understandable.. you guys have to eat...
But, with everything you guys have done recently that is even closely related to AD generation in game... it honestly looks like a campaign to bring all things ad related under the Iron Fisted control of a Greedy Dictatorship. Yes, those are strong words.. and maybe seemingly baseless accusations... but it's how I'm beginning to feel about the motives of the game company in these changes.
From the looks of it...you guys aren't combating Bots... you are limiting EVERY player to a certain allotment of Ad per day.. irregardless of personal effort to progress and thrive at the economic side of the game.
There HAS been ways to be independent of Zen Purchases... a way to Play for Free in this Free to Play game.... I honestly think THIS is the target of the Devs... not botters.
The more the Devs talk... the more it seems their hearts are full of greed... not compassion or consideration for their consumers. And this causes me to not want to help them at all... not want to make a great guild filled with people taht teach and help new players... not want to progress my toons to make life easier for my guildies... because.. ultimately.. that would do nothing but lead them into captivity... lead them to the wolves like lambs...
I NEED TO BE ABLE TO TRUST THE MOTIVES of the Devs. In order to invest in and support their cause. This is less and less a possibility daily....
“Improvise, Adapt and Overcome!”
― Clint Eastwood, Heartbreak Ridge
Guild Leader of Ardent Justice HQ: Always recruiting People not Pixels.
I've never understood why people don't understand that botting is in fact cheating.
Because it's not always real cheating. The people who wrote a script for starting their professions aren't doing anything you can't do. They just do it hands-free using existing technology. They gain nothing more in return than you do. It's the same difference between typing a message and dictating one to Siri: Siri, open < URL > and click my left mouse. That's basically the entire script. Nothing illegal there I think. Using AH scripting to keep undercutting people by 1 AD however or Dissemble existing programs and scripts in order to abuse them is an entirely different matter.
I'm sure the objective behind the system on how professions is set up, was not meant to be abused by the use of scripting. The normal everyday person can not religiously start a new task on professions every 1, 2, 4, hours straight 7 seven days a week like a script can. On several different Toons to boot. The realism is just not there for that scenerio for everybody to be able to do that. So in fact using a script would be and is considered cheating.
Boils down to the saying "just because you can, doesn't mean you should"
The high yield task are 12 hours, 16 hours and then 8 hours. I use the 4 hours as filler so that I can start a long one before bed time. You don't need a script if you only do that twice or 3 times daily. At least, I don't and I don't use a script and that is why I care about 'back page'.
I understand that you don't need a script to do those or for that matter any of the task. I was referring to the part of using a script as cheating. I used the 1, 2, and 4 hour task as an example. For the simple reason that someone using a script can repeat those missions relentlessly with out having to put in the time and effort that other people do. Therefore they do gain more return than a person that puts the time and effort into it and uses the system the way it was meant to be used.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,224Arc User
I understand that you don't need a script to do those or for that matter any of the task. I was referring to the part of using a script as cheating. I used the 1, 2, and 4 hour task as an example. For the simple reason that someone using a script can repeat those missions relentlessly with out having to put in the time and effort that other people do. Therefore they do gain more return than a person that puts the time and effort into it and uses the system the way it was meant to be used.
The issue is: stopping Gateway does not stop the bot to do profession. They just do that in game. The bot can already run a dungeon. It is a lot easier for them to run profession in game. This shutdown does not help anyone. It only hurts honest players.
I used to spend 5 minutes in gateway to set up profession for my 12 toons per shift. I used to be able to do 2 to 3 shifts (depends on colour worker) per day. I used to set up profession when I am playing a toon during waiting for queue, dragon, etc.
Now, I spend about 15 minutes to do one shift for 12 toons (switching out takes time and loading new toon takes time). I can only do 1 shift per day. I have to switch character to do profession although this is not a big deal now since I can only do 1 shift anyway.
In the meanwhile, bots are just doing profession in game.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
@plasticbat......I want gateway back up and running as well as anyone else on this forum does. I happen to love playing the dice game, and the options of checking mail and managing my professions. I was only responding to the statement made that ""Because it's not always real cheating. The people who wrote a script for starting their professions aren't doing anything you can't do. They just do it hands-free using existing technology. They gain nothing more in return than you do." Referring to how it was cheating. Nothing about the reason or anything of why gateway is down.
Limiting the good tasks is sort of the route the old Dreadring/Sharandar weapons and Masterwork tasks have taken in the past and I feel have had good results by 'costing' the player to do some amount of gameplay first.
I certainly don't want to see BtC items that I can not use ever again. Bloody off-hand farming nonsense! And you are deluding yourself if you think that players get what would be useful. Black Ice 2.
Imaginary Friends are the best friends you can have!
Well, yes, it would certainly be better for the economy (AH) if the items sold and traded are rather items which are BoE (armor, weapons etc obtained from dungeons) than enchantments, RP, runestones etc. These days most items are BoE or BoP and thus can not be sold.
Imaginary Friends are the best friends you can have!
You do realize that he told you to sit tight while they finalize their official blog on the issue? WAAAAGH WALL OF TEXT CAN'T BE BOTHERED TO READ WHAT I'M QUOTING is the best way to get your feedback ignored. Players making ultimatums and false equivalencies like you are makes devs crawl back into their caves and ignore the forums like they have for decades in every other game ever made.
You're right, it seems you couldn't.
Did I demand it be put back up immediately? Did I even demand a timescale for when or if?
No.
I simply stated that some of us will have more of an Idea of what has caused the issues than others, and others more of an understanding about having to make decisions on exactly what is disclosed; that was then followed by the simple point that
1) the handling of the shutdown was very poorly done 2) if they wish any kind of goodwill retained from a large chunk of the gateway using section of the playerbase we will require a proper explanation, understandably as I plainly stated unlikely to have exact details of HOW they were exploiting or stressing the system, rather than a flimsy spin piece.
I'm guessing you don't work in a Front-Facing industry or one with a Front-Facing aspect, if you did you'd understand that one of the simplest ways to ensure customer goodwill is simply prompt communication even when that is simply "We have ran into an issue, we'll get more information to you when we can."
If I pulled a band/gig/festival stage you were attending I'm pretty sure you'd be demanding an explanation and the quicker it was supplied the better; as it is "The Lead Singer has broken his leg in two places and is attending Hospital." is enough for you and you don't need to know anything else. You might not be happy that the gig's pulled but you'll at least understand that it wasn't on a whim.
I openly stated that I expect, as do many others, for the gateway to be down for an extended period to allow a proper fix along with obvious paucity of mechanism details since that would possibly hinder any preventative measures put in place and that many of us do not expect the exact mechanisms to be detailed... we do however expect the courtesy of being told what, even if the details are understandably sparse on technical issues, caused the necessity of dropping the Gateway.
I'm sitting tight for the Official Release as are many others, simply saying that if it doesn't have some meat on it they will lose the remaining goodwill of yet another section of the playerbase. Please show me the WAAAGH in that if you can.
1) the handling of the shutdown was very poorly done
... is still poorly done still. This thread is a nightmare and the worthwhile content is hidden in a big pile of manure. No info on the "news and announcement" section either. Players are left in the dark or expected to find vague guesses in this pile here.
Imaginary Friends are the best friends you can have!
I'd make all professions tasks take 30 seconds. Then I'd limit the "good" tasks by making their resources only available once a day or once a week. The gameplay of crafting should be gathering the ingredients. Currently the gameplay is employee management and robot bosses are outperforming humans.
Limiting the good tasks is sort of the route the old Dreadring/Sharandar weapons and Masterwork tasks have taken in the past and I feel have had good results by 'costing' the player to do some amount of gameplay first.
While I loved farming my weapons, dont forget, that your 'new' mechanic requires RPs in spades. The only way I can afford to maintain my alt 'army' on a level I can contribute to all runs, is running LS on multiple chars.
While some of my friends started LS armies as early as beta, I went for LS alts late in the game, bc 'normal gameplay' no longer provided the RPs I needed to maintain my chars.
I really would love it, if you would take the grind factor out of leadership, but dont ruin it for all the players who devoted time and resources to maintain more then one character, to keep playing the game versatile even after some years.
my worry is, that it will end up in a total wipe of all profession progress, people earned so far. thats what happened in sto, when they overworked the crafting system there
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jaysun1977Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 177Arc User
Cheating generally infers that someone is using something not included in the game itself to gain an advantage over other players or using an exploit to do something the devs don't intend you to do.
Maybe in your language, but certainly not in english:
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Boils down to the saying "just because you can, doesn't mean you should"
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
One thing that has always been a ray of sunshine to me is that NW is one of those rare games where Crafting actually MATTERS...
Tasks with a shorter duration had more value because it required you to be in game more to actually capitalize on that fact. This was kinda a reward for no lifers like me
― Clint Eastwood, Heartbreak Ridge
Guild Leader of Ardent Justice HQ: Always recruiting People not Pixels.
FOUNDER and OWNER of the SKT3K Channel: SKT Only Content 3k+. http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1228278/skt-content-for-the-non-elite-video-links-provided
But, with everything you guys have done recently that is even closely related to AD generation in game... it honestly looks like a campaign to bring all things ad related under the Iron Fisted control of a Greedy Dictatorship. Yes, those are strong words.. and maybe seemingly baseless accusations... but it's how I'm beginning to feel about the motives of the game company in these changes.
From the looks of it...you guys aren't combating Bots... you are limiting EVERY player to a certain allotment of Ad per day.. irregardless of personal effort to progress and thrive at the economic side of the game.
There HAS been ways to be independent of Zen Purchases... a way to Play for Free in this Free to Play game.... I honestly think THIS is the target of the Devs... not botters.
The more the Devs talk... the more it seems their hearts are full of greed... not compassion or consideration for their consumers. And this causes me to not want to help them at all... not want to make a great guild filled with people taht teach and help new players... not want to progress my toons to make life easier for my guildies... because.. ultimately.. that would do nothing but lead them into captivity... lead them to the wolves like lambs...
I NEED TO BE ABLE TO TRUST THE MOTIVES of the Devs. In order to invest in and support their cause. This is less and less a possibility daily....
― Clint Eastwood, Heartbreak Ridge
Guild Leader of Ardent Justice HQ: Always recruiting People not Pixels.
FOUNDER and OWNER of the SKT3K Channel: SKT Only Content 3k+. http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1228278/skt-content-for-the-non-elite-video-links-provided
I used to spend 5 minutes in gateway to set up profession for my 12 toons per shift.
I used to be able to do 2 to 3 shifts (depends on colour worker) per day.
I used to set up profession when I am playing a toon during waiting for queue, dragon, etc.
Now, I spend about 15 minutes to do one shift for 12 toons (switching out takes time and loading new toon takes time).
I can only do 1 shift per day.
I have to switch character to do profession although this is not a big deal now since I can only do 1 shift anyway.
In the meanwhile, bots are just doing profession in game.
And you are deluding yourself if you think that players get what would be useful. Black Ice 2.
These days most items are BoE or BoP and thus can not be sold.
Did I demand it be put back up immediately? Did I even demand a timescale for when or if?
No.
I simply stated that some of us will have more of an Idea of what has caused the issues than others, and others more of an understanding about having to make decisions on exactly what is disclosed; that was then followed by the simple point that
1) the handling of the shutdown was very poorly done
2) if they wish any kind of goodwill retained from a large chunk of the gateway using section of the playerbase we will require a proper explanation, understandably as I plainly stated unlikely to have exact details of HOW they were exploiting or stressing the system, rather than a flimsy spin piece.
I'm guessing you don't work in a Front-Facing industry or one with a Front-Facing aspect, if you did you'd understand that one of the simplest ways to ensure customer goodwill is simply prompt communication even when that is simply "We have ran into an issue, we'll get more information to you when we can."
If I pulled a band/gig/festival stage you were attending I'm pretty sure you'd be demanding an explanation and the quicker it was supplied the better; as it is "The Lead Singer has broken his leg in two places and is attending Hospital." is enough for you and you don't need to know anything else. You might not be happy that the gig's pulled but you'll at least understand that it wasn't on a whim.
I openly stated that I expect, as do many others, for the gateway to be down for an extended period to allow a proper fix along with obvious paucity of mechanism details since that would possibly hinder any preventative measures put in place and that many of us do not expect the exact mechanisms to be detailed... we do however expect the courtesy of being told what, even if the details are understandably sparse on technical issues, caused the necessity of dropping the Gateway.
I'm sitting tight for the Official Release as are many others, simply saying that if it doesn't have some meat on it they will lose the remaining goodwill of yet another section of the playerbase. Please show me the WAAAGH in that if you can.
No info on the "news and announcement" section either. Players are left in the dark or expected to find vague guesses in this pile here.
While some of my friends started LS armies as early as beta, I went for LS alts late in the game, bc 'normal gameplay' no longer provided the RPs I needed to maintain my chars.
I really would love it, if you would take the grind factor out of leadership, but dont ruin it for all the players who devoted time and resources to maintain more then one character, to keep playing the game versatile even after some years.
thats what happened in sto, when they overworked the crafting system there
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cheat