This 60% does not come solely from things specific to MoF. From pure MoF features you have Combustive action or swath of destruction (I seem to remember somewhere in @thefabricant 's guide that only one of the two applies if you run both) that is a 20/24% debuff.
If you wish to further the debuff you have; ray of enfeeblement for 17.5/35% that is not parangon specific Bitter cold in the oppressor tree that is neither parangon nor renegade specific...
Renegade deals mostly in buffs rather than debuff: 5% crit from uncertain allegiance Combat advantage from nightmare wizardry (less effective than GF mark since teh mark add 8% damage) The random buff of the capstone
You can further the debuff but it would come from gear, again not parangon specific.
So please, do explain your animosity to MoF debuff.
bitter cold + the combo you said it goes up to 69% for me i just tried on my opressor ALONE and no other gear than my pvp armor.
Again here's the quote from the SW blog regarding Tyrannical threat:
This is clearly a big change, but it was unfortunately necessary as Tyrannical Threat was so much further ahead of all other Daily Powers. It’s still an incredibly useful power, but other Dailies actually have a chance to compete with it.
They make it very clear they flat out do not want a situation where one daily power is so good it outcompetes everything else. What makes you think one feat is going to be any different?
Trapper didn't get hit because that feat was A) core to trappers ability to deal effective DPS, and trapper specific. It didn't with buffs elsewhere outcompete those other options. Spell twisting is early enough in the tree and powerful enough alone that they can't buff the other lines enough for them to outcompete spell twisting without making those other lines flat out OP. There is simply no way given their demonstrated balancing factors they're going to let spell twisting remain must have and there is no way to not touch it and not have it be must have without over buffing everything else.
You're comparing apples and oranges. TT was on the same level as ITF. It was breaking the game. And again, in spite of the nerf ITF is still a mandatory ability to slot. So they've clearly shown that not all the decisions they make are dependent on whether or not something is better than alternatives.
Also, if you think spell twisting isn't core to CWs ability to deal effective DPS then I don't know what to tell you. They could easily buff the other trees by giving them feats that benefit your party and leave spell twisting as is.
Also, if you think spell twisting isn't core to CWs ability to deal effective DPS then I don't know what to tell you.
WTF are you on about, i've acknowledged it is. That is WHY it will be nerfed, no single feat should be core to all forms of DPS in all builds.
And no it's not apples to oranges, TT wasn't nerfed because it was breaking the game, it was nerfed because it was making all the other daily's unused. I provided the quote proving this.
Paingiver is not an acurratte or Useful measure of your actual sustained damage output, (i.e DPS), in various ways it lies. For a true idea use ACT. Link below:
Also, if you think spell twisting isn't core to CWs ability to deal effective DPS then I don't know what to tell you.
WTF are you on about, i've acknowledged it is. That is WHY it will be nerfed, no single feat should be core to all forms of DPS in all builds.
And no it's not apples to oranges, TT wasn't nerfed because it was breaking the game, it was nerfed because it was making all the other daily's unused. I provided the quote proving this.
You just said SoF wasn't nerfed because it was core to their ability to do decent DPS ... if spell twisting is core to CWs DPS why wouldn't it be left alone like Trapper was?
TT was nerfed because it was letting warlocks melt everything. Give me a break.
Post edited by urabask on
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited August 2016
You know want we don't need, guys? Is to engage with people who don't play the CW class, who will inevitably invade the thread and demand nerfs. Our best bet is to just ignore those people and continue with otherwise productive discussions.
Let's start by practicing here.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
Joking aside, personally I would like to see MoC slightly reworked... its not as good single target as a knife and its not as good AOE spell as OF. Although both don't have target cap as far as I know, MoC is seriously crippled largely due to long casting time (everything will be dead-ish while casting is over). That is last daily to be opened, make it a bit more desirable.
Idea of making SS and CC as core features is nice but I think we are too far gone for such fix.
Also couple of spells need to be revisited, mainly "Spell Mastery" part of them. COI is almost mandatory on mastery, partly because it performs that good partly because we don't have that much good alternatives. - Steal time could be good contender but CA uptime is to low to make it viable in comparison (around 6 seconds if i'm not mistaken... at least it was 2 mods ago when I tried it last time on mastery ). - Icy rays are good on single target but it's not working with spell twisting unless you prepare one rotation before you need it which is very annoying to do (I still do it anyways). - Chill strike, if you miss critical its not as effective as COI. - Ray of enfeeblement - see first sentence of the text.
And yes, toning down of CP might not be a bad idea but we need something good in return or else we will end up as useless as pedals on a wheelchair.
maelstorm is the absolute best control-control immunity-mitagation daily. IT also adds random 6 chills stacks or 5 arcane stacks from the renegade tree. IS life savior in demogorgon-tiamat fight while you under control ( the freeze from demogorgon or any control.
YOU can escape the archer in elol rooted you on the floor.
IN pvp they cant control you.
BACK to pve if you worry that will not hit nothing because the buffs and debuffs then cancel it and will cost the half ap.
Maybe instead of block wishlists we should review the class aspect by aspect and build up to a final tally. Some kind of mix between a bottomup process (looking at each constitual part independantly) and topdow aproach (looking at a big chunck and trying to force individual parts to fit the mold)
What I'm saying is we can't look at each power/feat/mechanics in a vacuum but we should'nt pigeonhole everything either..
we should ask ouselves some questions and not assume anything.
For example
Shift Mechanic : Teleport Benefits: quick relocation and short invulnerability Feated benefits if any : 3s up to 10% run speed increase with Brisk teleport Flaws: the end of the teleport animation is not easy to spot. This means that launching an encouter power after reappearing but before the actual end of the immunity fram will cause the encounter power animation to play with no effect Suggested change: QoL: fix this flaw it's plain aggravating. either block the animation launch of the encounter untill it can trully be used or allow to use the encounter right after reappearance.
Tab Mechanic: Spell mastery Benefit: gives a 4th encounter power with added effect to it's normal effect Flaws: some encounter don't realy benefit from their mastery bonus (ray of enfeeblement, disintegrate) while other are mostly interesting on mastery: (CoI, FtF) suggested changes: When making the survey on encounter use, make a distinction whether it's a standard encounter or a mastery encounter. I would hazard a gess and say that the top 4 contenders for the mastery spot are CoI, Shield, FtF and maybe IT in that order. I may be wrong but to me CoI is useles if not on mastery while boss there, Shield on mastery is a PvP affectation (smie) while FtF and IT on Tab are a bit niche. I'm not sure if any other encounter would deserve a mastery spot. On the other hand in non mastery spot we have IT, ST, Disintegrate and ray of enfeeblement that trust the top spots easily In fine, there is not so much choice in how you combine your powers. So if an internal balance must be done on encounters, there are in fact many balances to make: Encounters versus each other, Mastery encounters versus each other, Mastery encounters versus their standard version... So it's almost as if you had to balance 3 classes at once
Here is a small breakdown of our encounters with some thoughts added to them. The most outrageous ideas are some proposed element change but it's more food for thought than anything
The freezing section:Premise, damage should not be the main objective of these spells but more the chill/frozen state
Chill strike effects: damage + stun - 1 stack of chill Mastery: add AoE It fits with the premise cold = chill + disable. if only it could induce Frozen state if the target already has enough chill stacks..
Conduit of Ice Effects: small AoE 5 additionanl targets, refresh chill duration on tick, damage dependent of number o fhill stacks Mastery: Greater AoE, additional target, add chill on tick There is 2 major problems with this power on normal mode it should add chill not just refresh it On mastery it should hit more additional targets but otherwise it's already a monster I don't think we will get much done on it... still chill stacks in normal mode...
Icy terrain Effect: freeze the ground and those walking on it Mastery: targetable IT It's already good but I'm also wishing we could have a small range on normal ( 15-20 ft would allow to freeze just in front of you) And I would gladly see an increase in diameter on mastery intead of range but I'm nitpicking
Icy rays Effect: mark then damage+ immobilize + chill Mastery: more damage more immobilize + extra chill If it weren't so clunky... could probably be changed to a lightning spell that would be available for all cw, single target and stun no chill stack. An alternative to sudden storm for fight with single target and could allow for a 4th stack of elemental empowerment for MoF
The arcane section: here is the corner for spells that boarden the capabilities of a wizard. dadly nowadays only DPS is wanted but it should be here that we have all kind of vicious or surprising effects
Entangling force: effect: holds the target Mastery now pulls nearby foes toward the target This is clearly a hold/disable spell. should be ice based and add chill
Repel Effect: this is a knock back effect with stun Mastery: multiple targets should do more damage and prone
Shield Effect add a layer of DR that regenerates slowly after being struck second use blow the shil and push back foes Mastery 2 layers of DR and CC resist I would change this: I want to see shields being bursted: The shield would like today add a layer of DR but it would also have an internal resilience equal to a % of max HP of the cw and when struck, the shied DR would'nt diminish but its internal resilence would. This internal resilience would then slowly regenerate but if this internal resilience is exhausted, then the shiel burst and the spell goes on cool down. If you burst your bubble voluntary, it should deal damage based on the internal resilience left. This way you won't feel you lost an encounter power since you would have to manage it and recsst it if it was burst
Ray of enfeeblement Effect Dot that reduce target mitigation Mastery 2 charges I would separate the first hit and the dot to Have something like a 60/40% split in favor of the first hit. I would make the Dot Stackable like the debuff and mastery should decrease the cool down by 40% at rank 4 instead of giving a charge. This way you can have a cool overlaping effect with a first hit of the subsequent casts that benefits from the damage increase.
But since it's DoT based and debuff seems to me it should be a fire spell - one available for every CW, potentially adding a 4th stack of elemental empowerment for storm mages (just a thought)
Steal Time Effect: AoE slow and Stun Mastery add CA and run speed Very good but seems to me it's right up the ice alley... just saying
Shards of endless avalanche Effect : bowling Mastery: more bowling There should be no target limit on this. maybe the ball should move away from you on cast and explode on reuse of the spell? This is just tentative as I really don't know this spell well enough to formulate a true proposition
Disintegrate Effect: Fwoosh Mastery; ... I would change the desintegration condition here. First on normal: if your hit would kill the target - > desintegration On masterysarting when target has 10% life left (and this 10% is > to the damage you dishes with disintegrate) you have a small chance to outright kill the target. this chance starts small at 10% remaining life but increases as target's life diminishes) Since it's an outright kill it bypasses DR but it's a small chance.
Emprisonment I do not know this spell sorry
Lightning section spell should have stun/daze
Sudden storm: Just debug it it would be fine and add stun or daze
Fire section DoT and debuff
Fanning the flame I would like to see smolder applied around the target on normal and remove the target cap for gathering and fanned flames... on a gigantic pull I want it to BUUUURRRRn! (sorry my inside gleeful pyromaniac rearred it's head)
No worries ironzerg. What i fear though is that our AoE damage Will become to Strong.
The biggest issues i see 1. We Are not flexible and are forced to choose certain feats and Powers to be viable 2. Our single Target damage stinks 3. We have to stand in to close a range 4. Our control doesnt do anything against boss(mobs)
I do think our AoE damage could use a little buff but not to much. Else it will be Out of wack.
For Point 1 i do agree with making the smolder and the ss thing a standard paragonpassive. MoF is all about smolder which means it should apply itself via crits. Take for example soulbinder sparks. They automatically gain them.
I would like to add that fanned flame really needs some Love. Currently its not even in my aoe rotation as it doesnt do enough damage for me (according to my act logs). Since i also dont have the crit conf i have to use my at wills to apply smolder.
The single Target damage in Point 2 is somewhat Tough. I do get that we specialize in aoe and control which means our single Target damage should Be Low. But currently it feels like a Pack of butter is already to Strong.
Maybe a good way is to increase the initial damage of fanned flame and get rid of the targetcap. This way this paragonspecific ability gets some Nice incentive and our single Target damage is higher. Getting rid of the targetcap Will Mean that only the maintarget Will receive the full brunt. I would think a tabbed fanned flame should deal like 80% damage to secondairy targets.
In order to increase our Range i agree that increasing the Range of icy terrain and Slow time would work. Added benefit is that knockbacks might Be less anoying like this. I'm doubting a bit if Both it and St should Be groundtargeted. This would essentially Make us viable from Long Range. Downside is that we have to manually aim it. All in All i think having a Large radius might Be the best solution for Both abilities.
In regard to our inability to control bosses. I think it should have at least SOME effect. Maybe either a short stun or else a damage done reduction buff
There are a few things I'd like to see changed for the class that would first improve the way the class plays, and would also help in pvp, in which it's a well-known sub-average performer.
First, many animations needs to be looked at. Anything above 1s needs to have a very valid reason to exist, be it nice damage or a great effect (steal time has both, for instance). But many long animations aren't required, like chill strike or conduit of ice. It makes playing the CW class not satisfying in many occasions. I've created a HR lately and so far the class feels extremely satisfying to play at low level due to casting spells not being clumsy in comparison.
I would also take a look at master of fire. Frankly there are more than enough buffs and debuffs in the game right now, and would turn the parangon into a hard-hitter one. I'd change the smolder mechanic into something that means the CW itself (and itself only) deals 50-60% more damage to affected targets, and would buff damage from spells like fanning the flame and the fire daily. However, when smolder is applied, it would be impossible to apply any stack of chill and control duration of CW spells would have to be greatly reduced. That would let the devs finally bring storm spell and chilling presence in line with other feats, while preserving the option for a dps CW. Storm spell has never been an interesting thing to play with to begin with.
depends this person may be a pve cw who think that control bonus is not relevant.
On the subject of the valindra set, are we sure it works? every time I inspect a cw with the valindra set although I can see they have 3 pieces, the tooltip for each piece show 2/3 with the shard greyed
you focus to much on major changes, guys. Here are my 5 cents: first of all, there is a number of powers and feats that are overused, no matter of build or content you play, this powers and feats are: Chilling Presance, Storm Spell, Steal Time, Conduit of Ice, Icy Terrain, Disintegrate, Icy Veins, Spell Twisting. Even if this powers will be nerfed, you should take into account, that you will also get some buffs, just like with Hunter Ranger's powers and feats (Swiftness of the Fox was fixed then buffed, and now it works with atwills and Daily powers). The point is, that this CW powers and feats, are not broken, they work correctly, but in comparision to other CW powers, overperform by a lot, so you all should start from here> lack of diversity in powers and feats that perform well. In such a situation, things can be fix in 2 ways: Nerfhammer, or, what is a better solution, ceating diversity.
Because CW performs well (of cource, a CW is not competing in DPS, but is by far better at debuffing and control then any other class), nerfhammer will kill the class, so the goal is to create diversity.
The problem with Hunter Ranger was lack of diversity in builds. CW has no such a problem: you have 2 viable paragons, and 2 viable feat-paths that create a lot of builds: 1) MoF-Rene with icy veins 2) MoF-Thaum with icy veins 3) MoF-Rene with spell twisting 4) MoF-Thaum with Abyss Plus 4 more builds that are SS and not MoF: 5) SS-Rene with icy veins 6) SS-Thaum with icy veins 7) SS-Rene with spell twisting 8) SS-Thaum with Abyss
In conclusion, CW does not lack build diversity, yeah, there is no Oppressor in the list above, but there are PvP players that go Oppressor path.
Now lets take a look at the powers used by all these build: Encounter powers> no matter what build you have, for trash cleaning you will use CoI on tab, Steal Time, Icy terrain + FtF or Disintegrate or Sudden Storm For boss fights you can use the same powers, but most will use CoI on tab, Disintegrate, Ray of Enfeeblement + FtF or Sudden Storm or Chill Strike
What encounter powers are not used at all? -> Entangling Force, Repel, Shield, Icy Rays, Shard of Endless Avalance, Enprisionment. Repel and Shiled are used in PvP and Shiled is also usefull in hard content with a waek party or solo, so they are usefull, finally, we have 4 useless encounter powers, this being much less then for GWF, GF, OP, TR and even SW, that being said, Encounter powers are well balanced toward each other, but do less damage if to compare with other classes' encounter powers.
Dailies: Icy Knife, Oppresive force, Furious Imolation are the most common, others being in a worse position, but only because they underperform and need a severe buff
At-wills... All can be used, none of them is useless, but they are not as good as other classes' at-wills, but anyway we have no time to spam at-wills, so this does not matter
Class Features. Ok, the hard part is here. Allmost any build uses Chilling Presance, and Strom Spell, Critical Conflagration, Swath of Destruction, Combustive Actions are the alternatives, and only MoF CWs have access to the last 3, and only MoF Rene will use 2 of the last 3 at a time, off-slotting CP. So we are left with 7 useless Class Features, that underperform by a lot, relatively to other CW class features.
In conclusion we need diversity in Daily powers and class features, and maybe some love to Oppressor.
How to create this diversity? balansing the class features, so that CP will not be a musthave. For this, we need to move a part of the huge damage buff from CP somewere else.
Integrating Smolder aplication and Storm Spell in paragon class mechanic is a solution. If smolder or storm spell will deal about 15% of the entire CW's damage, then CP can be toned down a bit, moreover we will get a free class feature spot where any other class feature can hit, so, the part of DPS taken from CP can be transfered to other class features by buffing them.
Finaly we will have 2 class features that can give and overall damage buff of, lets say, +50% if you go for personal dps (CP+ Evocation for exaple), or +25% personal dps from CP and some utility (combustive/swath or one new class feature that will replace critical conflagration/storm spell), or even 2 utility class features at a time (combustive + swath = profit)!
As final word, i want to say that the only problem about CW is class feature issues, and maybe, CWs need a minor damage buff, but not a full rework. It will be a huge misstake to nerf icy veins or spell twisting. Any nerf to CW will be a huge misstake that will kill the allready setteled CW gameplay.
Yep we go in dreamland with our wishlist not because we really want them but to explore new concepts that could inspire some of the future balancing.
I'm perfectly in tune with what you said but mostly we had reached this consensus by page 2 so we went further and bounced more drastic change to one another to try and boarden the scope. At least It's my vision.
We could present our findings in terms of 'Necessary' - 'good to have' - 'cherry on top'
In the must have:
bug correction toning down CP either in absolute terms or by letting it apply only to cold powers -> subsequent damage buff to make this change neutral since our damage is in the right bracket work on the interraction between Chill and Elven Battle
work on useless class features: Orb of imposition: As anyone tested the orb + valindra+ control boons + all sources of control bonus? Does it have an effect on the worst offenders or is it wasted? could it become a debuff on control resist instead? So that control imune targets could be brought down to 80% control resist instead? Arcane presence - not useless but not effective enough Evocation - not useless but not effective either Storm fury - doesn't sound very interesting Eye of the storm - obsolete Arcane power field - so late in the tree, so useless Frost waves - useless even though it's our last feature to obtain - my proposition When you deal cold damage to a foe, foe near it get a stack of chill and auto freeze if enough stack. not normal to have only IT and RoF to freeze
In the good to have Stotmspell and crit conflag switched to parangon mechanics work on balancing encounters and Mastery encounters (the mastery spot is trusted by CoI)
Yep we go in dreamland with our wishlist not because we really want them but to explore new concepts that could inspire some of the future balancing.
I'm perfectly in tune with what you said but mostly we had reached this consensus by page 2 so we went further and bounced more drastic change to one another to try and boarden the scope. At least It's my vision.
We could present our findings in terms of 'Necessary' - 'good to have' - 'cherry on top'
In the must have:
bug correction toning down CP either in absolute terms or by letting it apply only to cold powers -> subsequent damage buff to make this change neutral since our damage is in the right bracket work on the interraction between Chill and Elven Battle
work on useless class features: Orb of imposition: As anyone tested the orb + valindra+ control boons + all sources of control bonus? Does it have an effect on the worst offenders or is it wasted? could it become a debuff on control resist instead? So that control imune targets could be brought down to 80% control resist instead? Arcane presence - not useless but not effective enough Evocation - not useless but not effective either Storm fury - doesn't sound very interesting Eye of the storm - obsolete Arcane power field - so late in the tree, so useless Frost waves - useless even though it's our last feature to obtain - my proposition When you deal cold damage to a foe, foe near it get a stack of chill and auto freeze if enough stack. not normal to have only IT and RoF to freeze
In the good to have Stotmspell and crit conflag switched to parangon mechanics work on balancing encounters and Mastery encounters (the mastery spot is trusted by CoI)
Cherry on top Everything else
if you figured out all thet stuff by page 2, i think it will be better to work on more exact changes, something like low CP to a 30% dmaga cap but ad +10% to evocation and so on, because walking on dreamland and inventin new mechanix and interactions will not help at all when the class balance will hit. so i wanted to focus CW community on the fact that the problem is allready known, and a solution, an exact and elaborated one is needed.
I firstly want Oppressor and other CC focused-trees for strikers to be able to actually fill the role of controllers even on the hardest of content, which isn't really true now. I don't have an issue w/ the basic Striker not being able to CC well on the high-end, but when specialized for it they should be able to re-gain a controller status if they also go out of their way to get +control bonus ratings (which usually come at the expense of dps or survival bonuses).
This also means making sure Opp doesn't lag too far behind the other trees in dps against CC immune stuff. I think the main dial here to tune should be Shatter Strike. Currently the 100% weapon dmg proc seems anemic. I'd turn that nob up a good deal and see what happens.
I think the biggest design issue w/ CWs was tying their basic CC mechanic (Chill) to by far their best dps increase (Chilling Pres). Its too late to really change that paradigm, though, since the class is pretty much married to it. I wouldn't mind, say, Thaums being very competitive strikers w/o relying on Chill + CP at least, but I dunno how to go about that.
I firstly want Oppressor and other CC focused-trees for strikers to be able to actually fill the role of controllers even on the hardest of content, which isn't really true now. I don't have an issue w/ the basic Striker not being able to CC well on the high-end, but when specialized for it they should be able to re-gain a controller status if they also go out of their way to get +control bonus ratings (which usually come at the expense of dps or survival bonuses).
This also means making sure Opp doesn't lag too far behind the other trees in dps against CC immune stuff. I think the main dial here to tune should be Shatter Strike. Currently the 100% weapon dmg proc seems anemic. I'd turn that nob up a good deal and see what happens.
I think the biggest design issue w/ CWs was tying their basic CC mechanic (Chill) to by far their best dps increase (Chilling Pres). Its too late to really change that paradigm, though, since the class is pretty much married to it. I wouldn't mind, say, Thaums being very competitive strikers w/o relying on Chill + CP at least, but I dunno how to go about that.
The issue with control being of no use can be easyly corrected: Do a high-end instance with mobs with about 50-66% Control Resist, plus 14-30% additional resist to dazez and stuns plus total imunity to prones, with powerfull range attacks or spells, mele mobs with insta-charges to those who steal agro and kiting powers if the mob is a spellcaster/archer. The dungeon should be heavily crowded (20+ mobs in a pack plus summoners: 12 weak mobs, 6 powerful warriors or spellcasters and 2 elites (like golems), the pack's summoners should be able to summon an elite or 2 warriors or an warrior and 3 weakers or 5 weakers if net interrupted) Mobs AI should be inteligent enough to flank the tank, attack the healer first, protect their spellcasters and to group apart so that a single AoE spell will not affect them all; to go out of smoke bombs, icy terrain, thorn ward, pillar of power or other stationar AoE spells, to kite away if on low hp and try to heal up, to attack randomly any of the party members (from time to time), no matter who is holding the agro at the moment only a BiS Tank (OP or GF) + a BiS healer (DC or healadin) + a buffer (a buff DC, or a temptation SW or a buff HR) to be able to tank mobs without anyone keeping them under control.
In such a case, the party should have a tank and a healer (OP/GF and OP/DC) + a controller (trapper HR, CW, TR) + a buffer/debuffer (tempt-SW/ HR/ MoF or Rene-CW/ buff-debuffer-DC) and a DPSer (SW/GWF or specific builds of CW, HR, TR)
Bosses in such an inst should be highly aggresive, with charges or kiting abilities, powerfull strikes that only a GF can block and survive, random agro, splashes of power when everybody PANIC and run (and unlike Valindra, the boss will still be there, fighting you), with buffs that make them harder to kill and more powerfull as their HP drops; and lots, no... LOTS of minions. So when encountering the boss, the tank and healer will hold him up, while the other (the controller buffer and DPSer) will kill minions and try to deal some damage to the boss.
There can be ambushes, traps, mazes, and other stuff you want, but the idea is that there should be mobs that if not controlled will kill you all.
I wish they would add true fire powers to the MoF cw path to make it a ture master of flame
Ya I was thinking in a similar fashion. Master of Flame does't feel like a master of anything hehe. I am not very familiar with the DnD lore regarding control wizards, but I feel a lack of fire based encounters. Most of the spells seem to be either arcane or frost, would be great if the arsenal of powers would be increased with some fire based spells or perhaps by choosing MoF patch, some of the powers would change their function and/or element.
Something I noticed and would like to see implemented all around for control would be anything akin to how Thorned Roots deals straight damage when the target is immune to control effects.
If these were linked to fire/lightning stacks, we could use these to increase our damage or control effectiveness, like with chill stacks.
We could have players slotting different powers and such to diversify a little and exploit different types of control.
(And maybe only one type of these stacks could be applied to players to prevent problems in PVP. Or not, I don't enjoy that sort of gameplay so I wouldn't know.)
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
edited September 2016
I do not agree storm spell and smolder to fuse with the paragons. one thing make cw interesting is to switch clash features depending on situations. take that away and we will be the easy class... i hate easy classses.
I do not agree storm spell and smolder to be part of the paragons. one thing make cw interesting is to switch clash features depending on situations. take that away and we will be the easy class... i hate easy classses.
i.e. Something you NEVER do if you're a storm spell CW.
FFS the reason you're trying to use to justify why they shouldn't do it is the reason it needs to be done.
Also, Smolder is already part of its paragon's general powers. Critical Conflagration is not and I'd argue that Combustive Action should be added to MoF's general powers as well. Everyone takes MoF for the debuffs and not being able to easily spread Smolder makes no sense. All you really lose by slotting those two powers is Chilling Presence anyways so once again you're in the spot where you do not have many if any actual reasons to use other class features because you're boxed in by the awkward design that should have been part of smolder in the first place.
I do not agree storm spell and smolder to be part of the paragons. one thing make cw interesting is to switch clash features depending on situations. take that away and we will be the easy class... i hate easy classses.
i.e. Something you NEVER do if you're a storm spell CW.
FFS the reason you're trying to use to justify why they shouldn't do it is the reason it needs to be done.
Also, Smolder is already part of its paragon's general powers. Critical Conflagration is not and I'd argue that Combustive Action should be added to MoF's general powers as well. Everyone takes MoF for the debuffs and not being able to easily spread Smolder makes no sense. All you really lose by slotting those two powers is Chilling Presence anyways so once again you're in the spot where you do not have many if any actual reasons to use other class features because you're boxed in by the awkward design that should have been part of smolder in the first place.
Do you really play CW?
The problem with buffing is that it's currently too powerful in this game. Like, way, way too powerful. Having buffs not letting you do any kind of dps isn't a bad thing imo. The last thing the game needs is an even faster clear meta. So as long as buffs and debuffs stacking is causing "bosses" to be demolished in under 5s, there is no way a MoF CW should be allowed to slot chilling presence instead of swash of destruction. Not being able to easily spread smolder, as you put it, is the very reason MoF isn't completely out of whack. I do agree that it would be interesting if it was integrated to the parangon itself, but not before the long standing buff stacking parties for 5s bosses problem is addressed.
Basically, what you're asking for is a MoF thaum metagame. CWs would sacrifice maybe 25-30% of their dps to double the team's damage (assuming HV + MoF), and trust me, this is the very last thing the game needs right now.
I don't think we should factor in HV too heavily when trying to balance the class. Trying to build for a small sliver of players on XBOX, non on PS4, and however many on PC seems like bending too much to a minority.
I don't think we should factor in HV too heavily when trying to balance the class. Trying to build for a small sliver of players on XBOX, non on PS4, and however many on PC seems like bending too much to a minority.
I will stop assuming HV once the set bonus gets removed definitely from the game. There are still a lot of people owning it on PC.
Comments
https://postimg.org/image/p0obx99kf/
here you are 169% ray of frost 169% shatered,
Also, if you think spell twisting isn't core to CWs ability to deal effective DPS then I don't know what to tell you. They could easily buff the other trees by giving them feats that benefit your party and leave spell twisting as is.
WTF are you on about, i've acknowledged it is. That is WHY it will be nerfed, no single feat should be core to all forms of DPS in all builds.
And no it's not apples to oranges, TT wasn't nerfed because it was breaking the game, it was nerfed because it was making all the other daily's unused. I provided the quote proving this.
https://github.com/nilsbrummond/Neverwinter-ACT-Plugin
TT was nerfed because it was letting warlocks melt everything. Give me a break.
Let's start by practicing here.
YOU can escape the archer in elol rooted you on the floor.
IN pvp they cant control you.
BACK to pve if you worry that will not hit nothing because the buffs and debuffs then cancel it and will cost the half ap.
What I'm saying is we can't look at each power/feat/mechanics in a vacuum but we should'nt pigeonhole everything either..
we should ask ouselves some questions and not assume anything.
For example
Shift Mechanic : Teleport
Benefits: quick relocation and short invulnerability
Feated benefits if any : 3s up to 10% run speed increase with Brisk teleport
Flaws: the end of the teleport animation is not easy to spot. This means that launching an encouter power after reappearing but before the actual end of the immunity fram will cause the encounter power animation to play with no effect
Suggested change: QoL: fix this flaw it's plain aggravating. either block the animation launch of the encounter untill it can trully be used or allow to use the encounter right after reappearance.
Tab Mechanic: Spell mastery
Benefit: gives a 4th encounter power with added effect to it's normal effect
Flaws: some encounter don't realy benefit from their mastery bonus (ray of enfeeblement, disintegrate) while other are mostly interesting on mastery: (CoI, FtF)
suggested changes: When making the survey on encounter use, make a distinction whether it's a standard encounter or a mastery encounter. I would hazard a gess and say that the top 4 contenders for the mastery spot are CoI, Shield, FtF and maybe IT in that order.
I may be wrong but to me CoI is useles if not on mastery while boss there, Shield on mastery is a PvP affectation (smie) while FtF and IT on Tab are a bit niche. I'm not sure if any other encounter would deserve a mastery spot.
On the other hand in non mastery spot we have IT, ST, Disintegrate and ray of enfeeblement that trust the top spots easily
In fine, there is not so much choice in how you combine your powers. So if an internal balance must be done on encounters, there are in fact many balances to make: Encounters versus each other, Mastery encounters versus each other, Mastery encounters versus their standard version... So it's almost as if you had to balance 3 classes at once
The freezing section:Premise, damage should not be the main objective of these spells but more the chill/frozen state
Chill strike
effects: damage + stun - 1 stack of chill
Mastery: add AoE
It fits with the premise cold = chill + disable. if only it could induce Frozen state if the target already has enough chill stacks..
Conduit of Ice
Effects: small AoE 5 additionanl targets, refresh chill duration on tick, damage dependent of number o fhill stacks
Mastery: Greater AoE, additional target, add chill on tick
There is 2 major problems with this power on normal mode it should add chill not just refresh it
On mastery it should hit more additional targets but otherwise it's already a monster I don't think we will get much done on it... still chill stacks in normal mode...
Icy terrain
Effect: freeze the ground and those walking on it
Mastery: targetable IT
It's already good but I'm also wishing we could have a small range on normal ( 15-20 ft would allow to freeze just in front of you)
And I would gladly see an increase in diameter on mastery intead of range but I'm nitpicking
Icy rays
Effect: mark then damage+ immobilize + chill
Mastery: more damage more immobilize + extra chill
If it weren't so clunky... could probably be changed to a lightning spell that would be available for all cw, single target and stun no chill stack. An alternative to sudden storm for fight with single target and could allow for a 4th stack of elemental empowerment for MoF
The arcane section: here is the corner for spells that boarden the capabilities of a wizard. dadly nowadays only DPS is wanted but it should be here that we have all kind of vicious or surprising effects
Entangling force:
effect: holds the target
Mastery now pulls nearby foes toward the target
This is clearly a hold/disable spell. should be ice based and add chill
Repel
Effect: this is a knock back effect with stun
Mastery: multiple targets
should do more damage and prone
Shield
Effect add a layer of DR that regenerates slowly after being struck second use blow the shil and push back foes
Mastery 2 layers of DR and CC resist
I would change this: I want to see shields being bursted: The shield would like today add a layer of DR but it would also have an internal resilience equal to a % of max HP of the cw and when struck, the shied DR would'nt diminish but its internal resilence would. This internal resilience would then slowly regenerate but if this internal resilience is exhausted, then the shiel burst and the spell goes on cool down. If you burst your bubble voluntary, it should deal damage based on the internal resilience left.
This way you won't feel you lost an encounter power since you would have to manage it and recsst it if it was burst
Ray of enfeeblement
Effect Dot that reduce target mitigation
Mastery 2 charges
I would separate the first hit and the dot to Have something like a 60/40% split in favor of the first hit. I would make the Dot Stackable like the debuff and mastery should decrease the cool down by 40% at rank 4 instead of giving a charge. This way you can have a cool overlaping effect with a first hit of the subsequent casts that benefits from the damage increase.
But since it's DoT based and debuff seems to me it should be a fire spell - one available for every CW, potentially adding a 4th stack of elemental empowerment for storm mages (just a thought)
Steal Time
Effect: AoE slow and Stun
Mastery add CA and run speed
Very good but seems to me it's right up the ice alley... just saying
Shards of endless avalanche
Effect : bowling
Mastery: more bowling
There should be no target limit on this. maybe the ball should move away from you on cast and explode on reuse of the spell? This is just tentative as I really don't know this spell well enough to formulate a true proposition
Disintegrate
Effect: Fwoosh
Mastery; ...
I would change the desintegration condition here. First on normal: if your hit would kill the target - > desintegration
On masterysarting when target has 10% life left (and this 10% is > to the damage you dishes with disintegrate) you have a small chance to outright kill the target. this chance starts small at 10% remaining life but increases as target's life diminishes) Since it's an outright kill it bypasses DR but it's a small chance.
Emprisonment
I do not know this spell sorry
Lightning section spell should have stun/daze
Sudden storm:
Just debug it it would be fine and add stun or daze
Fire section DoT and debuff
Fanning the flame
I would like to see smolder applied around the target on normal and remove the target cap for gathering and fanned flames... on a gigantic pull I want it to BUUUURRRRn! (sorry my inside gleeful pyromaniac rearred it's head)
What i fear though is that our AoE damage Will become to Strong.
The biggest issues i see
1. We Are not flexible and are forced to choose certain feats and Powers to be viable
2. Our single Target damage stinks
3. We have to stand in to close a range
4. Our control doesnt do anything against boss(mobs)
I do think our AoE damage could use a little buff but not to much. Else it will be Out of wack.
For Point 1 i do agree with making the smolder and the ss thing a standard paragonpassive. MoF is all about smolder which means it should apply itself via crits. Take for example soulbinder sparks. They automatically gain them.
I would like to add that fanned flame really needs some Love. Currently its not even in my aoe rotation as it doesnt do enough damage for me (according to my act logs). Since i also dont have the crit conf i have to use my at wills to apply smolder.
The single Target damage in Point 2 is somewhat Tough. I do get that we specialize in aoe and control which means our single Target damage should Be Low. But currently it feels like a Pack of butter is already to Strong.
Maybe a good way is to increase the initial damage of fanned flame and get rid of the targetcap. This way this paragonspecific ability gets some Nice incentive and our single Target damage is higher. Getting rid of the targetcap Will Mean that only the maintarget Will receive the full brunt. I would think a tabbed fanned flame should deal like 80% damage to secondairy targets.
In order to increase our Range i agree that increasing the Range of icy terrain and Slow time would work. Added benefit is that knockbacks might Be less anoying like this. I'm doubting a bit if Both it and St should Be groundtargeted. This would essentially Make us viable from Long Range. Downside is that we have to manually aim it. All in All i think having a Large radius might Be the best solution for Both abilities.
In regard to our inability to control bosses. I think it should have at least SOME effect. Maybe either a short stun or else a damage done reduction buff
First, many animations needs to be looked at. Anything above 1s needs to have a very valid reason to exist, be it nice damage or a great effect (steal time has both, for instance). But many long animations aren't required, like chill strike or conduit of ice. It makes playing the CW class not satisfying in many occasions. I've created a HR lately and so far the class feels extremely satisfying to play at low level due to casting spells not being clumsy in comparison.
I would also take a look at master of fire. Frankly there are more than enough buffs and debuffs in the game right now, and would turn the parangon into a hard-hitter one. I'd change the smolder mechanic into something that means the CW itself (and itself only) deals 50-60% more damage to affected targets, and would buff damage from spells like fanning the flame and the fire daily. However, when smolder is applied, it would be impossible to apply any stack of chill and control duration of CW spells would have to be greatly reduced. That would let the devs finally bring storm spell and chilling presence in line with other feats, while preserving the option for a dps CW. Storm spell has never been an interesting thing to play with to begin with.
On the subject of the valindra set, are we sure it works? every time I inspect a cw with the valindra set although I can see they have 3 pieces, the tooltip for each piece show 2/3 with the shard greyed
Here are my 5 cents:
first of all, there is a number of powers and feats that are overused, no matter of build or content you play, this powers and feats are: Chilling Presance, Storm Spell, Steal Time, Conduit of Ice, Icy Terrain, Disintegrate, Icy Veins, Spell Twisting. Even if this powers will be nerfed, you should take into account, that you will also get some buffs, just like with Hunter Ranger's powers and feats (Swiftness of the Fox was fixed then buffed, and now it works with atwills and Daily powers). The point is, that this CW powers and feats, are not broken, they work correctly, but in comparision to other CW powers, overperform by a lot, so you all should start from here> lack of diversity in powers and feats that perform well.
In such a situation, things can be fix in 2 ways: Nerfhammer, or, what is a better solution, ceating diversity.
Because CW performs well (of cource, a CW is not competing in DPS, but is by far better at debuffing and control then any other class), nerfhammer will kill the class, so the goal is to create diversity.
The problem with Hunter Ranger was lack of diversity in builds. CW has no such a problem: you have 2 viable paragons, and 2 viable feat-paths that create a lot of builds:
1) MoF-Rene with icy veins
2) MoF-Thaum with icy veins
3) MoF-Rene with spell twisting
4) MoF-Thaum with Abyss
Plus 4 more builds that are SS and not MoF:
5) SS-Rene with icy veins
6) SS-Thaum with icy veins
7) SS-Rene with spell twisting
8) SS-Thaum with Abyss
In conclusion, CW does not lack build diversity, yeah, there is no Oppressor in the list above, but there are PvP players that go Oppressor path.
Now lets take a look at the powers used by all these build:
Encounter powers>
no matter what build you have, for trash cleaning you will use CoI on tab, Steal Time, Icy terrain + FtF or Disintegrate or Sudden Storm
For boss fights you can use the same powers, but most will use CoI on tab, Disintegrate, Ray of Enfeeblement + FtF or Sudden Storm or Chill Strike
What encounter powers are not used at all? -> Entangling Force, Repel, Shield, Icy Rays, Shard of Endless Avalance, Enprisionment.
Repel and Shiled are used in PvP and Shiled is also usefull in hard content with a waek party or solo, so they are usefull, finally, we have 4 useless encounter powers, this being much less then for GWF, GF, OP, TR and even SW, that being said, Encounter powers are well balanced toward each other, but do less damage if to compare with other classes' encounter powers.
Dailies: Icy Knife, Oppresive force, Furious Imolation are the most common, others being in a worse position, but only because they underperform and need a severe buff
At-wills... All can be used, none of them is useless, but they are not as good as other classes' at-wills, but anyway we have no time to spam at-wills, so this does not matter
Class Features. Ok, the hard part is here.
Allmost any build uses Chilling Presance, and Strom Spell, Critical Conflagration, Swath of Destruction, Combustive Actions are the alternatives, and only MoF CWs have access to the last 3, and only MoF Rene will use 2 of the last 3 at a time, off-slotting CP. So we are left with 7 useless Class Features, that underperform by a lot, relatively to other CW class features.
In conclusion we need diversity in Daily powers and class features, and maybe some love to Oppressor.
How to create this diversity? balansing the class features, so that CP will not be a musthave.
For this, we need to move a part of the huge damage buff from CP somewere else.
Integrating Smolder aplication and Storm Spell in paragon class mechanic is a solution. If smolder or storm spell will deal about 15% of the entire CW's damage, then CP can be toned down a bit, moreover we will get a free class feature spot where any other class feature can hit, so, the part of DPS taken from CP can be transfered to other class features by buffing them.
Finaly we will have 2 class features that can give and overall damage buff of, lets say, +50% if you go for personal dps (CP+ Evocation for exaple),
or +25% personal dps from CP and some utility (combustive/swath or one new class feature that will replace critical conflagration/storm spell),
or even 2 utility class features at a time (combustive + swath = profit)!
As final word, i want to say that the only problem about CW is class feature issues, and maybe, CWs need a minor damage buff, but not a full rework. It will be a huge misstake to nerf icy veins or spell twisting. Any nerf to CW will be a huge misstake that will kill the allready setteled CW gameplay.
I'm perfectly in tune with what you said but mostly we had reached this consensus by page 2 so we went further and bounced more drastic change to one another to try and boarden the scope. At least It's my vision.
We could present our findings in terms of 'Necessary' - 'good to have' - 'cherry on top'
In the must have:
bug correction
toning down CP either in absolute terms or by letting it apply only to cold powers
-> subsequent damage buff to make this change neutral since our damage is in the right bracket
work on the interraction between Chill and Elven Battle
work on useless class features:
Orb of imposition: As anyone tested the orb + valindra+ control boons + all sources of control bonus? Does it have an effect on the worst offenders or is it wasted? could it become a debuff on control resist instead? So that control imune targets could be brought down to 80% control resist instead?
Arcane presence - not useless but not effective enough
Evocation - not useless but not effective either
Storm fury - doesn't sound very interesting
Eye of the storm - obsolete
Arcane power field - so late in the tree, so useless
Frost waves - useless even though it's our last feature to obtain - my proposition When you deal cold damage to a foe, foe near it get a stack of chill and auto freeze if enough stack. not normal to have only IT and RoF to freeze
In the good to have
Stotmspell and crit conflag switched to parangon mechanics
work on balancing encounters and Mastery encounters (the mastery spot is trusted by CoI)
Cherry on top
Everything else
This also means making sure Opp doesn't lag too far behind the other trees in dps against CC immune stuff. I think the main dial here to tune should be Shatter Strike. Currently the 100% weapon dmg proc seems anemic. I'd turn that nob up a good deal and see what happens.
I think the biggest design issue w/ CWs was tying their basic CC mechanic (Chill) to by far their best dps increase (Chilling Pres). Its too late to really change that paradigm, though, since the class is pretty much married to it. I wouldn't mind, say, Thaums being very competitive strikers w/o relying on Chill + CP at least, but I dunno how to go about that.
<CO docs> .: Petco :. // Base DPS Sheet (needs revision) // PSA on Power Activation Delay
- Themed Tanks // Misc Build Dump // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (stat data)
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Do a high-end instance with mobs with about 50-66% Control Resist, plus 14-30% additional resist to dazez and stuns plus total imunity to prones, with powerfull range attacks or spells, mele mobs with insta-charges to those who steal agro and kiting powers if the mob is a spellcaster/archer.
The dungeon should be heavily crowded (20+ mobs in a pack plus summoners: 12 weak mobs, 6 powerful warriors or spellcasters and 2 elites (like golems), the pack's summoners should be able to summon an elite or 2 warriors or an warrior and 3 weakers or 5 weakers if net interrupted)
Mobs AI should be inteligent enough to flank the tank, attack the healer first, protect their spellcasters and to group apart so that a single AoE spell will not affect them all; to go out of smoke bombs, icy terrain, thorn ward, pillar of power or other stationar AoE spells, to kite away if on low hp and try to heal up, to attack randomly any of the party members (from time to time), no matter who is holding the agro at the moment
only a BiS Tank (OP or GF) + a BiS healer (DC or healadin) + a buffer (a buff DC, or a temptation SW or a buff HR) to be able to tank mobs without anyone keeping them under control.
In such a case, the party should have a tank and a healer (OP/GF and OP/DC) + a controller (trapper HR, CW, TR) + a buffer/debuffer (tempt-SW/ HR/ MoF or Rene-CW/ buff-debuffer-DC) and a DPSer (SW/GWF or specific builds of CW, HR, TR)
Bosses in such an inst should be highly aggresive, with charges or kiting abilities, powerfull strikes that only a GF can block and survive, random agro, splashes of power when everybody PANIC and run (and unlike Valindra, the boss will still be there, fighting you), with buffs that make them harder to kill and more powerfull as their HP drops; and lots, no... LOTS of minions. So when encountering the boss, the tank and healer will hold him up, while the other (the controller buffer and DPSer) will kill minions and try to deal some damage to the boss.
There can be ambushes, traps, mazes, and other stuff you want, but the idea is that there should be mobs that if not controlled will kill you all.
I'm also interested in this :
Cold; Slowing/debilitating
Lightning: Dazing/Stun
Fire: Buff/Debuff
Arcane: straight damage increase
If these were linked to fire/lightning stacks, we could use these to increase our damage or control effectiveness, like with chill stacks.
We could have players slotting different powers and such to diversify a little and exploit different types of control.
(And maybe only one type of these stacks could be applied to players to prevent problems in PVP. Or not, I don't enjoy that sort of gameplay so I wouldn't know.)
one thing make cw interesting is to switch clash features depending on situations. take that away and we will be the easy class... i hate easy classses.
FFS the reason you're trying to use to justify why they shouldn't do it is the reason it needs to be done.
Also, Smolder is already part of its paragon's general powers. Critical Conflagration is not and I'd argue that Combustive Action should be added to MoF's general powers as well. Everyone takes MoF for the debuffs and not being able to easily spread Smolder makes no sense. All you really lose by slotting those two powers is Chilling Presence anyways so once again you're in the spot where you do not have many if any actual reasons to use other class features because you're boxed in by the awkward design that should have been part of smolder in the first place.
Do you really play CW?
Basically, what you're asking for is a MoF thaum metagame. CWs would sacrifice maybe 25-30% of their dps to double the team's damage (assuming HV + MoF), and trust me, this is the very last thing the game needs right now.