Icy Veins and Spell Twisting are the only things that make CW viable. Plus, they never move feats around. That would be a super nerf to all 3 trees.
THEY never move feats around. NOW i remembered in past nightmare wizardry was a tier 2 tree feat on renegade then it moved on tier 4.
what is viable for you? thaumaturge using feat from opressor to smash buttons? because you sacrifice the self buffs to get that icy veins on thauma which i finid it stupid.
Icy Veins and Spell Twisting are the only things that make CW viable. Plus, they never move feats around. That would be a super nerf to all 3 trees.
THEY never move feats around. NOW i remembered in past nightmare wizardry was a tier 2 tree feat on renegade then it moved on tier 4.
what is viable for you? thaumaturge using feat from opressor to smash buttons? because you sacrifice the self buffs to get that icy veins on thauma which i finid it stupid.
The goal of moving feats around shouldn't be to discourage players from putting points in another tree; it should be to prevent players from never choosing a specific tree. Having builds that dip into other trees is a good thing because it can create diversity. The problem is that there is nothing in thaum to encourage you to go full thaum and nothing in renegade to encourage you to put 15 points in there.
mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
storm pilar should give the buff without charge that will make again that feat useful. That is 5% damage and 15% from power transfer vs trash. add and the 15% from arcane. SINCE we have and control those numbers are fine.
CW is an encounter-based class. A lot of players now use Dread. They are not going to spam 2 different at-wills. Nobody uses FPT anymore anyway. You may want to play a weak trash controller, but most of us do not.
so you want to tell me because using dread you cant do frozen power transfer before you go meelee with icy terrain? or you cant charge a pilar( which i dont agree with it ) to get also the 5% buff. OR you have in mind the great weapon fighter who will sprint? DO you know the duration of a storm pilar buff or the other role has that att will or we need to forget them because we use dread?
Great weapons are the opposite uising encounters to buff att wills. so they lose time using their encounters ?
There are no competitive builds for Thaum right now except CP with IV or AoC with Lightning. You are trying to say that SP and FPT will make a good alternative. That is not true. There would have to be massive buffs elsewhere to make Thaum viable instead of a liability.
I dont say icy veins ofcourse is the best i switched recently. but and the other one under the right circumsstances is the strongest. ESPecially in area like edemo with so many wizards around with storm pilar annd frozen power transfer you can be buffed with extra 20% and take advantage of other cw with veins. BUT alone is weaker.
There are no competitive builds for Thaum right now except CP with IV or AoC with Lightning. You are trying to say that SP and FPT will make a good alternative. That is not true. There would have to be massive buffs elsewhere to make Thaum viable instead of a liability.
I dont say icy veins ofcourse is the best i switched recently. but and the other one under the right circumsstances is the strongest. ESPecially in area like edemo with so many wizards around with storm pilar annd frozen power transfer you can be buffed with extra 20% and take advantage of other cw with veins. BUT alone is weaker.
To take advantage of either of those things, your groups need to be downright terrible.
There are no competitive builds for Thaum right now except CP with IV or AoC with Lightning. You are trying to say that SP and FPT will make a good alternative. That is not true. There would have to be massive buffs elsewhere to make Thaum viable instead of a liability.
I dont say icy veins ofcourse is the best i switched recently. but and the other one under the right circumsstances is the strongest. ESPecially in area like edemo with so many wizards around with storm pilar annd frozen power transfer you can be buffed with extra 20% and take advantage of other cw with veins. BUT alone is weaker.
By the time YOU get ready to DPS, the mobs will be dead, your party will be dpsing the next mob group, leaving you standing there holding your orb.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Also while i like your proposed changes it will seriously buff our AoE damage.
What would you propose to keep the class around the current level of damage?
To really Make a Wizard able to stand far away you also need icy terrain to be groundtargeted. Much like the current icy terrain on tab.
@firebreath86 I don't recall that specifically, but the CW fights right in the middle of things. Still not a melee class, if that was the discussion, but short ranged for sure. Just because that's how it is doesn't mean that's how it should be. Hence why my patch notes added back ranges to a lot of spells. Even IT. If you notice my patch note updates the range to 80'. The mastery now makes it bigger and adds to the length of the immobilize.
And I don't propose to keep the class around the same level of damage. What I want to see is options to drive the class to a DPS class. That would mean that our DPS needs an increase. However, I think that increase should be driven by selecting feats, features and powers, NOT the decision to use Storm Spell or not. I also think the way I laid out the spells and powers at least starts to create DPS trees for Lightning, Fire or Arcane.
Frost remains the domain of the controller. And as far as that goes, I tried to add in debuffs that were inherent to the the control spells, so that even CC immune mobs were debilitated by the CC.
But it's a start. There's probably still tons of tweaks to add in, but I think what I posted at least gets us closer to my stated goals
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
Before mod6 was an important reason why cw and tr were the top damage dealers. IF you remember critical chance had a cap and increased max to 40% maybe and lesser. CW with eye of the storm had 100% critical and then again with chilling presence boost renegades had the additional 10% c rate. ALSO TR with stealth had 100% critical chance. THE other classes didnt have those options.
We could try to assign a general idea of what each type of damage entail
Cold powers would be arroud chill stack, slowing, freezing and would be a general enabler which means the focus should not really be the damage with the cold powers but more the addistion of chill stacks, and the freezing mechanism with this approach, it becomes self explanatory to reduce Cold presence efectiveness either by reducing the bonus if it still applies to all type of damage, or keep this strengh but limit it to cold encounters
I would try to salvage Frost wave by doing something like when a ennemy gains a stack of chill, every ennemy with strictly less stacks of chill than that first ennemy within x feet of that first ennemy also gain a stack of chill. Additionally, ennemies with 6 stacks of chill get frozen if possible
Arcane powers are a bit of Jack of all trade right now. Be it DPS (disintegrate) hold (entangling) protection (shield) ther isn't realy a true focus on this element. it would then be the element of diversity, the root of the other elements. as such I would make arcane presence apply to fire and lightning damage sources
For arcane power field I would see something along the lines of after a daily, for a limited time all your powers generate an additional arcane stack (if it wasn't before it give one, if it was it gives two) Furthermore, during this limited time your arcane stacks augment your damage by an additionnal .5/1/1.5/2%
I would see lightning to have a chance to stun, daze or even blind for brief periods of time (for .5 sec I would say Since I'm quite willing to include stormspell trigger in core parangon mechanics it would be necessary to rework the class features
Storm fury: I would make it something like the lightning enchant: when you deal (stormspell) to a foe, you have a 33/67/100% chance to propagate it to a secondary target. At rank 4, to 2 secondary targets
stormspell would become something like : you increase the damage of (stormspell) by 20/35/50/65% and increase the stun/daze/blind duration of lightning damage by .1/.2/.3/.4 s
Eye of the storm: in addition to it's current effect, increase the chance to have a (stormspell) on crit by 10/20/30/40% meaning raising it to 70% at rank 4
For Fire damage, I would go with a more buff/debuff approach. Assuming the smolder trigger on crit, I would add a by defaulf debuff on targets affected by smolder: Targets affected by smolder have their DR reduced by 5%. if it's rimefire smolder, the target deals also 3% less damage. I explain it by saying that being set on fire is quite distracting.
combustive action and swath wouldn't really need many change but for critical conflagration I would go along the lines of increase the crit severity of you and your party members against smolder affected targets. If a smolder affected target is critically hit bya a member of your team (you included) Smolder propagates to all close targets ( aroung 7-8 feets from the source)
I would also remove the target cap on Fanning the flames but that's just me wanting to reach inferno level of destructions Muahahah (pyromaniac mode on)
Of course all these Ideas are only bottles thrown in the sea. It may never reach shore
^^ on the topic of smolder - I mentioned this before, but anything that refreshes or adds to smolder in anyway should be fixed to credit the original caster that applied smolder.
One of the things I hate most about running MoF is when another CW ( usually a SS) gets credit for MY smolder
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
^^ on the topic of smolder - I mentioned this before, but anything that refreshes or adds to smolder in anyway should be fixed to credit the original caster that applied smolder.
One of the things I hate most about running MoF is when another CW ( usually a SS) gets credit for MY smolder
Its true and not true. Contribution goes to the one who refreshes the smolder with chill.
If it was up to me, I would reduce the CW Buffs by about 20% in total on the mof rene line.
I truly think they are a bit overpowered, when you compare them to say HR and new SW debuffing, I would make them match those two classes.
Mof only does a 20% buff then renegade is a 1/3 chance at 30% ...
No one would take renegade if the capstone was nerfed.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Right. No one took Renegade until the capstone was buffed...and even then it was a hard sell to convince people it was a viable tree...
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
MoF doesn't get its debuff potential from the renegade tree, which is completely independent of the MoF path and is accessible to SS and MoF. MoF gets its debuff potential from class features.
This 60% does not come solely from things specific to MoF. From pure MoF features you have Combustive action or swath of destruction (I seem to remember somewhere in @thefabricant 's guide that only one of the two applies if you run both) that is a 20/24% debuff.
If you wish to further the debuff you have; ray of enfeeblement for 17.5/35% that is not parangon specific Bitter cold in the oppressor tree that is neither parangon nor renegade specific...
Renegade deals mostly in buffs rather than debuff: 5% crit from uncertain allegiance Combat advantage from nightmare wizardry (less effective than GF mark since teh mark add 8% damage) The random buff of the capstone
You can further the debuff but it would come from gear, again not parangon specific.
So please, do explain your animosity to MoF debuff.
I would be extremely wary of giving the devs ideas to pigeon-hole the paragon paths based on Crowd Control. CC does work but is gained by having both decent control bonus sheet stat (10% from artifacts, insignias, off-hand power) and decent control bonus percentage (Valindra set, Wisdom, pets, boons). Get those up and CC is available to any paragon path for SS and MoF.
Thereafter you can choose your poison:
Want extreme control for PVP go Oppressor + spell twisting Want DPS go Thaum + icy veins Want buffing and DPS (from CAD) go Renegade + spell twisting OR get Recovery up and go icy veins.
Point is, CC is available for whichever function you want to play at the moment. By forcing spell twisting and particularly icy veins further up the paragon paths you limit build creativity.
I know there's an argument from the 3k+ players that control is a waste when DPS is king but I for one would like to continue being a useful contributor to guild runs with lower iLvl team mates by bringing both DPS and CC to the party.
By forcing spell twisting and particularly icy veins further up the paragon paths you limit build creativity.
Yeah but spell twisting is going to get nerfed period, there is simply flat out no way it won't get hit like ITF did.
Paingiver is not an acurratte or Useful measure of your actual sustained damage output, (i.e DPS), in various ways it lies. For a true idea use ACT. Link below:
By forcing spell twisting and particularly icy veins further up the paragon paths you limit build creativity.
Yeah but spell twisting is going to get nerfed period, there is simply flat out no way it won't get hit like ITF did.
Again, there is no basis for this. They left Trapper with little to no cooldowns but somehow it's a problem for CW. The approach they took in the most recent balance changes was to buff other trees. ITF and was also nerfed with the intent of it still being a mandatory buff, nevermind that unerfed ITF was so OP it's ridiculous to imply that spell twisting is even comparable.
Forget nerfing...I want usefull features...like a timed interupt that works on bosses. We are Wizards for God's sake. Peeps complain when we are high dps, peeps complain when we control too much...quite frankly peeps complain too much period. In what "world" are wizards not the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>?
Paingiver is not an acurratte or Useful measure of your actual sustained damage output, (i.e DPS), in various ways it lies. For a true idea use ACT. Link below:
Again here's the quote from the SW blog regarding Tyrannical threat:
This is clearly a big change, but it was unfortunately necessary as Tyrannical Threat was so much further ahead of all other Daily Powers. It’s still an incredibly useful power, but other Dailies actually have a chance to compete with it.
They make it very clear they flat out do not want a situation where one daily power is so good it outcompetes everything else. What makes you think one feat is going to be any different?
Trapper didn't get hit because that feat was A) core to trappers ability to deal effective DPS, and trapper specific. It didn't with buffs elsewhere outcompete those other options. Spell twisting is early enough in the tree and powerful enough alone that they can't buff the other lines enough for them to outcompete spell twisting without making those other lines flat out OP. There is simply no way given their demonstrated balancing factors they're going to let spell twisting remain must have and there is no way to not touch it and not have it be must have without over buffing everything else.
Paingiver is not an acurratte or Useful measure of your actual sustained damage output, (i.e DPS), in various ways it lies. For a true idea use ACT. Link below:
Comments
what is viable for you? thaumaturge using feat from opressor to smash buttons? because you sacrifice the self buffs to get that icy veins on thauma which i finid it stupid.
The goal of moving feats around shouldn't be to discourage players from putting points in another tree; it should be to prevent players from never choosing a specific tree. Having builds that dip into other trees is a good thing because it can create diversity. The problem is that there is nothing in thaum to encourage you to go full thaum and nothing in renegade to encourage you to put 15 points in there.
Great weapons are the opposite uising encounters to buff att wills. so they lose time using their encounters ?
BUT alone is weaker.
And I don't propose to keep the class around the same level of damage. What I want to see is options to drive the class to a DPS class. That would mean that our DPS needs an increase. However, I think that increase should be driven by selecting feats, features and powers, NOT the decision to use Storm Spell or not. I also think the way I laid out the spells and powers at least starts to create DPS trees for Lightning, Fire or Arcane.
Frost remains the domain of the controller. And as far as that goes, I tried to add in debuffs that were inherent to the the control spells, so that even CC immune mobs were debilitated by the CC.
But it's a start. There's probably still tons of tweaks to add in, but I think what I posted at least gets us closer to my stated goals
Cold powers would be arroud chill stack, slowing, freezing and would be a general enabler which means the focus should not really be the damage with the cold powers but more the addistion of chill stacks, and the freezing mechanism
with this approach, it becomes self explanatory to reduce Cold presence efectiveness either by reducing the bonus if it still applies to all type of damage, or keep this strengh but limit it to cold encounters
I would try to salvage Frost wave by doing something like when a ennemy gains a stack of chill, every ennemy with strictly less stacks of chill than that first ennemy within x feet of that first ennemy also gain a stack of chill. Additionally, ennemies with 6 stacks of chill get frozen if possible
Arcane powers are a bit of Jack of all trade right now. Be it DPS (disintegrate) hold (entangling) protection (shield) ther isn't realy a true focus on this element. it would then be the element of diversity, the root of the other elements. as such I would make arcane presence apply to fire and lightning damage sources
For arcane power field I would see something along the lines of after a daily, for a limited time all your powers generate an additional arcane stack (if it wasn't before it give one, if it was it gives two) Furthermore, during this limited time your arcane stacks augment your damage by an additionnal .5/1/1.5/2%
I would see lightning to have a chance to stun, daze or even blind for brief periods of time (for .5 sec I would say
Since I'm quite willing to include stormspell trigger in core parangon mechanics it would be necessary to rework the class features
Storm fury: I would make it something like the lightning enchant: when you deal (stormspell) to a foe, you have a 33/67/100% chance to propagate it to a secondary target. At rank 4, to 2 secondary targets
stormspell would become something like : you increase the damage of (stormspell) by 20/35/50/65% and increase the stun/daze/blind duration of lightning damage by .1/.2/.3/.4 s
Eye of the storm: in addition to it's current effect, increase the chance to have a (stormspell) on crit by 10/20/30/40% meaning raising it to 70% at rank 4
For Fire damage, I would go with a more buff/debuff approach. Assuming the smolder trigger on crit, I would add a by defaulf debuff on targets affected by smolder: Targets affected by smolder have their DR reduced by 5%. if it's rimefire smolder, the target deals also 3% less damage. I explain it by saying that being set on fire is quite distracting.
combustive action and swath wouldn't really need many change but for critical conflagration I would go along the lines of increase the crit severity of you and your party members against smolder affected targets. If a smolder affected target is critically hit bya a member of your team (you included) Smolder propagates to all close targets ( aroung 7-8 feets from the source)
I would also remove the target cap on Fanning the flames but that's just me wanting to reach inferno level of destructions Muahahah (pyromaniac mode on)
Of course all these Ideas are only bottles thrown in the sea. It may never reach shore
One of the things I hate most about running MoF is when another CW ( usually a SS) gets credit for MY smolder
I think Arcane could be the foundation for pure damage, while the cc effects are more tied to the elements.
Cold; Slowing/debilitating
Lightning: Dazing/Stun
Fire: Buff/Debuff
Anyway, it's a really, really good thought.
I truly think they are a bit overpowered, when you compare them to say HR and new SW debuffing, I would make them match those two classes.
Im combo this two, and work good.
Imprisonment need be fix.
No one would take renegade if the capstone was nerfed.
If you wish to further the debuff you have; ray of enfeeblement for 17.5/35% that is not parangon specific
Bitter cold in the oppressor tree that is neither parangon nor renegade specific...
Renegade deals mostly in buffs rather than debuff:
5% crit from uncertain allegiance
Combat advantage from nightmare wizardry (less effective than GF mark since teh mark add 8% damage)
The random buff of the capstone
You can further the debuff but it would come from gear, again not parangon specific.
So please, do explain your animosity to MoF debuff.
Thereafter you can choose your poison:
Want extreme control for PVP go Oppressor + spell twisting
Want DPS go Thaum + icy veins
Want buffing and DPS (from CAD) go Renegade + spell twisting OR get Recovery up and go icy veins.
Point is, CC is available for whichever function you want to play at the moment. By forcing spell twisting and particularly icy veins further up the paragon paths you limit build creativity.
I know there's an argument from the 3k+ players that control is a waste when DPS is king but I for one would like to continue being a useful contributor to guild runs with lower iLvl team mates by bringing both DPS and CC to the party.
Yeah but spell twisting is going to get nerfed period, there is simply flat out no way it won't get hit like ITF did.
https://github.com/nilsbrummond/Neverwinter-ACT-Plugin
Wrong, there all the basis for this.
https://github.com/nilsbrummond/Neverwinter-ACT-Plugin
They make it very clear they flat out do not want a situation where one daily power is so good it outcompetes everything else. What makes you think one feat is going to be any different?
Trapper didn't get hit because that feat was A) core to trappers ability to deal effective DPS, and
https://github.com/nilsbrummond/Neverwinter-ACT-Plugin