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Official Feedback Thread: Scourge Warlock changes

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    flowcytoflowcyto Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 196 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    So after some dummy tests trying diff 'AoE' rotations, I do think overall AoE encounters for SW's need a bit more of a buff in general. This is esp since SW's don't really have a good AoE at-will as a striker (last hit of Eld Blast is small, slow, and a bit minor). Although.. I would welcome more splash/AoE dmg on 1-2 of our other at-wills as well (perhaps splash dmg on the melee version of HoB, and a splash dmg effect for Dark Spiral Aura).

    It seems that HB is now the 'AoE' spec, as spreading around Hellish Rebuke and using Pillar to boost general dmg can outdo what SB can bring to AoE (basically via more daily spam on trash w/ D2D), and Gates can hit pretty hard. SB is still better for single-target due to SS spam (and for self-healing, assuming they fix BT), though HB can narrow that gap if they can also affect the enemy w/ Pillar of Power's dmg aura and dmg debuff.

    Suggestions:
    Fiery Bolt: Boost dmg a bit and maybe make it add Lesser Curse (LC is Fire dmg, so it can work thematically).
    Harrowstorm: Make the power activation occur earlier in the anim (as I've mentioned earlier).
    Arms of Hadar, Dreadtheft, BotVA, and Infernal Spheres: Boost dmg in general.
    Curse Bite: Add extra dmg if target has >1 curse, and add minor splash dmg around targets hit.
    Tyrannical Curse: Boost the dmg link portion.
    Pillar of Power: Radius and duration increase.

    ________________
    <CO docs> .: Petco :. // Base DPS Sheet (needs revision) // PSA on Power Activation Delay
    - Themed Tanks // Misc Build Dump // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • Options
    ghoulz66ghoulz66 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,748 Arc User
    flowcyto said:

    So after some dummy tests trying diff 'AoE' rotations, I do think overall AoE encounters for SW's need a bit more of a buff in general. This is esp since SW's don't really have a good AoE at-will as a striker (last hit of Eld Blast is small, slow, and a bit minor). Although.. I would welcome more splash/AoE dmg on 1-2 of our other at-wills as well (perhaps splash dmg on the melee version of HoB, and a splash dmg effect for Dark Spiral Aura).

    It seems that HB is now the 'AoE' spec, as spreading around Hellish Rebuke and using Pillar to boost general dmg can outdo what SB can bring to AoE (basically via more daily spam on trash w/ D2D), and Gates can hit pretty hard. SB is still better for single-target due to SS spam (and for self-healing, assuming they fix BT), though HB can narrow that gap if they can also affect the enemy w/ Pillar of Power's dmg aura and dmg debuff.

    Suggestions:
    Fiery Bolt: Boost dmg a bit and maybe make it add Lesser Curse (LC is Fire dmg, so it can work thematically).
    Harrowstorm: Make the power activation occur earlier in the anim (as I've mentioned earlier).
    Arms of Hadar, Dreadtheft, BotVA, and Infernal Spheres: Boost dmg in general.
    Curse Bite: Add extra dmg if target has >1 curse, and add minor splash dmg around targets hit.
    Tyrannical Curse: Boost the dmg link portion.
    Pillar of Power: Radius and duration increase.

    Seeing that Aimed Shot can be spammed, Dark Spiral Aura needs a buff to be in line with Aimed Shot's DPS. It is currently too weak for it's limitation.

    Hellish Rebuke. While not bad now, it's not impressive either, hardly impressive. It doesn't compete with a Righteous DC's crit Sun Brands. The NPNM tweak to it makes it even worst. What it should be doing under NPNM is dealing HEAVY damage.

    Harrowstorm @#$%es me off. Right when I think it actually ends, I cast another power and end up canceling it. You have to wait there and get hit over the head like an idiot until you visually see it pop on something.

    Fiery Bold. Not godlike, but it's so much better than it was before. Could probably slash off one more second on the CD though.

    Arms of Hadar/Blades, any CC power need large DPS buffs to them still. High risk should = high damage.
    DT still very weak. For a power that locks us into it for a large duration, it needs some more DPS to back it up since we cannot do anything while using it. Powers with such a huge drawback need compensation.

    Curse Bite, keep DPS about the same with WC on target, double damage with Lesser Curse and WC. Maybe buff overall damage of power by another 10-20%. Rush in, curse 3 primary targets, cast blades, get lesser curse on others from pack. Get rewarded with BIG damage for that setup.

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    schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    @agante22 thx for testing so much
    What was your setup vs TR? Did shift work against SE?
    WB, DT, spheres?
    NPNM+prince of hell?
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    hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,184 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    Alright, lets see,, I tested 2 days of warlock changes, 2 days rest and here is my review.

    Firstly question to all you guys? What do you play? action mmorpg or classic mmorpg??
    From post written in this thread sounds like you play classic mmorpg<<. Thats mean no dodge.

    You guys so insist to make pvp more like this video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wsBj_h90Ok

    While you all promoting just DR buff, Hp regeneration.. Ghezz. 180' degree from original neverwinter online.
    You try more absorb hits, rather than dodging them.

    And all pvp become gear vs gear, rather than player vs player..

    Until mod 6, players moved more, dodged more. Now players sit as duck on plate, eat incoming hit, latter here in forum complain that his CW is not as strong enough to hold hordes of enemies.



    Long range damage dealers must have high dps but lower survivability in close range. Close range dps must have slightly more survivability but also slightly less dps than long range ones, that what is balance. Tank even offensive build should not be able beat long ranged damage dealer in term of dps.

    And as for warlock, and suggestion to boost survivability even more.
    Makes warlock , close range striking tank nonsense. His role by desing was striker, not sub tank.


    Firstly warlock must have high dps. Then proper dodge mechanic. And DR and other survivability balance through gear.
    I met lot of guys, either gwf, tr,hr,op,dc,sw, cw. And when I watch their fight, Only 1 from 10 try use combat advantage. Flank monster from side to do more damage, or kite them. Most of them don't even know how to get combat advantage at all.
    And that when enemies get combat advantage they do more damage to your character..

    Some guys in pvp manage beat other player by using DuckOnPlate(PoP) buff.. I praise such player, and probably would troll to death that loser who didn't do anything to lure/push warlock away from PoP effect area.
    And I can bet any skilled player will do that without hesitation, or simply get away in range and force warlock step aside from DuckOnPlate effect area,
    Post edited by hadestemplar#9918 on
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
  • Options
    treesclimbertreesclimber Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,161 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    flowcyto said:

    So after some dummy tests trying diff 'AoE' rotations, I do think overall AoE encounters for SW's need a bit more of a buff in general. This is esp since SW's don't really have a good AoE at-will as a striker (last hit of Eld Blast is small, slow, and a bit minor). Although.. I would welcome more splash/AoE dmg on 1-2 of our other at-wills as well (perhaps splash dmg on the melee version of HoB, and a splash dmg effect for Dark Spiral Aura).

    It seems that HB is now the 'AoE' spec, as spreading around Hellish Rebuke and using Pillar to boost general dmg can outdo what SB can bring to AoE (basically via more daily spam on trash w/ D2D), and Gates can hit pretty hard. SB is still better for single-target due to SS spam (and for self-healing, assuming they fix BT), though HB can narrow that gap if they can also affect the enemy w/ Pillar of Power's dmg aura and dmg debuff.

    Suggestions:
    Fiery Bolt: Boost dmg a bit and maybe make it add Lesser Curse (LC is Fire dmg, so it can work thematically).
    Harrowstorm: Make the power activation occur earlier in the anim (as I've mentioned earlier).
    Arms of Hadar, Dreadtheft, BotVA, and Infernal Spheres: Boost dmg in general.
    Curse Bite: Add extra dmg if target has >1 curse, and add minor splash dmg around targets hit.
    Tyrannical Curse: Boost the dmg link portion.
    Pillar of Power: Radius and duration increase.

    ok, all good ideas exept TC one, damage link increase would further increase SB damage diference to HB with SS spam, make a big aoe on sucessfull cast or something or that kind would be better.
    Post edited by treesclimber on

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    agante22agante22 Member Posts: 13 Arc User

    @agante22 thx for testing so much

    What was your setup vs TR? Did shift work against SE?

    WB, DT, spheres?

    NPNM+prince of hell?

    Put together a few different rotations for multiple TR fights.

    Hellbringer: 1st Rotation
    Haders-You will never get this to apply with their immunities and dodge
    Pillar-staying static in field allows TR easy rotation of courage/smoke/blades
    killing Flames- nearly impossible to get off

    Hellbringer: 2nd Rotation
    Pillar-Same issue as first rotation
    BoTV-increased defense does a bit to help but dismal damage provides nothing to proc lifesteal while you are getting beat on
    Spheres- Horrible weak damage, clunky mechanic, exploding the spheres does less then 5k dmg

    Hellbringer: 3rd Rotation
    WB-This skill is working nothing like live providing very little heal and doing more harm to you then opponent
    DT-NO stacks no damage

    Overall:

    Shift mechanic is working against SE but they are able to easily cancel animation and reapply while we don't have immunity. Biggest challenge with this matchup is the lack of healing from lifesteal/insignias. On live I consistently win the battle of attrition on point against 99% of the TR's out there but with Hellbringer and "balanced" mod10 changes we don't stand a chance.

    BOTVA- Does zero damage with their healing
    Harrow- Extremely difficult to get off, while we are able to throw them up when they stealth extremely difficult to time effectively
    KF- with deflect mechanic unless you are able to time a perfect harrow/KF rotation this does 9-15k damage
    Spheres= junk, Doesn't show you stealthed location anymore
    WB-Broke, minimal healing very little damage
    DT- no stacks damage is minimal and this skill is easily countered with an interrupt
    Pillar- After first few fights opponents realize the damage/dr they take and easily step out


  • Options
    d4rkh0rs3d4rkh0rs3 Member Posts: 382 Arc User
    Honestly, we as SWs just need to throw in the towel with PvP.

    We are so far away from being competitive that it will take a complete rework of all the other classes before improvements are seen. I have yet to decide if it is purely the SW that is so bad, or if all the other classes are beyond "broken." My answer for now is both.

    Warlock's Bargain has to be the only encounter in the game that will strip you of 15% of your own health without doing anything to your opponent. Counterintuitive if you ask me.

    Beyond this, PvP has a plethora of queueing and matchup issues. No bueno.

    Right now, I would like to see the kinks worked out of our class before mod 10 drops, play around for a month or so, and then provide constructive, meaningful feedback to @amenar and go from there.
  • Options
    agante22agante22 Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    d4rkh0rs3 said:

    Honestly, we as SWs just need to throw in the towel with PvP.



    We are so far away from being competitive that it will take a complete rework of all the other classes before improvements are seen. I have yet to decide if it is purely the SW that is so bad, or if all the other classes are beyond "broken." My answer for now is both.



    Warlock's Bargain has to be the only encounter in the game that will strip you of 15% of your own health without doing anything to your opponent. Counterintuitive if you ask me.



    Beyond this, PvP has a plethora of queueing and matchup issues. No bueno.



    Right now, I would like to see the kinks worked out of our class before mod 10 drops, play around for a month or so, and then provide constructive, meaningful feedback to @amenar and go from there.

    Still a bit of time left before this goes live so instead of just throwing in the towel and calling GG I'm optimistic they will put some effort in. There could still be some utility to the party with hellbringer temptation in dom but theres are better alternative class choices with more utility.

    A Dom Build for party utility will consist of Temptation/Damnation focusing on pillars and CC.

    Team Buffs
    Pillars- 8% damage while in circle
    Hellish-5% decrease nme damage
    Cruelty-%5 life steal
    Compounded soul- %5 temp HP
    Aura Despair-5% decrease nme damage
    Dark Rev- 20% at 28-30k pwr (easilty attainable).. Does team buff apply on my power or allie power? if so 5-6k bonus off my power
    Soul Bonding-fantastic healing with our intense damage ha...

    I'm going into this mod with the mindset of being a serious underdog making any small victory that much more rewading. Question is will premades be willing offer the charity of having a SW in party we aren't a true striker and utility build is SO SO.
  • Options
    hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,184 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    agante22 said:

    d4rkh0rs3 said:

    Honestly, we as SWs just need to throw in the towel with PvP.



    We are so far away from being competitive that it will take a complete rework of all the other classes before improvements are seen. I have yet to decide if it is purely the SW that is so bad, or if all the other classes are beyond "broken." My answer for now is both.



    Warlock's Bargain has to be the only encounter in the game that will strip you of 15% of your own health without doing anything to your opponent. Counterintuitive if you ask me.



    Beyond this, PvP has a plethora of queueing and matchup issues. No bueno.



    Right now, I would like to see the kinks worked out of our class before mod 10 drops, play around for a month or so, and then provide constructive, meaningful feedback to @amenar and go from there.

    Still a bit of time left before this goes live so instead of just throwing in the towel and calling GG I'm optimistic they will put some effort in. There could still be some utility to the party with hellbringer temptation in dom but theres are better alternative class choices with more utility.

    A Dom Build for party utility will consist of Temptation/Damnation focusing on pillars and CC.

    Team Buffs
    Pillars- 8% damage while in circle
    Hellish-5% decrease nme damage
    Cruelty-%5 life steal
    Compounded soul- %5 temp HP
    Aura Despair-5% decrease nme damage
    Dark Rev- 20% at 28-30k pwr (easilty attainable).. Does team buff apply on my power or allie power? if so 5-6k bonus off my power
    Soul Bonding-fantastic healing with our intense damage ha...

    I'm going into this mod with the mindset of being a serious underdog making any small victory that much more rewading. Question is will premades be willing offer the charity of having a SW in party we aren't a true striker and utility build is SO SO.
    Hellbringer paragon path now is supporter. If you want striker build, go with soulbinder.
    With HB i did not bad dmg, but when I respected to soulbinder< with same gameplay, my performance increased by 30%. But still its far from competition to real striker classes..

    Warlock need not rebalancing< but redesinging from scratch. Time to old desing go away<.. It was ok in mod 4, and mod 5. Mod 6 show up all its flaws, and till now all problems only shined more and more.
    And only with TT < warlock could sometimes compete with mid geared strikers. While with TC = give up,

    I don't afraid go hard way,, I didn't give up in mod 6, didn't respected to easy dmg sb paragon path when he was in his best ages. But when this mod goes live, I will had 3 options,

    A) give up striker role and become supporter HB Temtation.
    B) give up Hellbringer path, because its not striker path anymore.
    C) give up on warlock and rebuild him to work as warehouse...


    . Enough of trollings, its already require x3 more efforts than CW to fight. Only top end geared guys 4k gs SW compete with 2.8k other strikers..


    p.s All want new class introduction to game.. So here is chance, redesing warlock, so it will be as new class...
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
  • Options
    flowcytoflowcyto Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 196 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    Posting some 'AoE' dps tests here. Can't test Infernal Spheres since they don't trigger on dummies now (partly why I'm using Harrowstorm so much- despite its cast anim being annoying atm).

    Test 1: SB - Harrowstorm (3 targets), Curse Bite (3 targets on avg), BotVA (3 targets), Accursed Souls (4 targets), HoB (1 target) = 41.1k + 911 (puppet) = 42k dps.
    http://imgur.com/6ehxfR9
    http://imgur.com/d8YtteQ

    Test 2: SB - Harrowstorm (3 targets), Curse Bite (3 targets avg), BotVA (3 targets), Tyrannical Curse (1 target + 3 minor targets), HoB (1 target) = 34.2k + 5.32k (TC) = 39.5k dps.
    http://imgur.com/PSMTXDy
    http://imgur.com/FngOSZE

    Test 3: SB - Harrowstorm (3 targets), Curse Bite (3 targets avg), Dreadtheft (3 targets), Accursed Souls (4 targets), ED (1 target) = 37.3k + 663 (puppet) = 38k dps.
    http://imgur.com/Y0oBFqI
    http://imgur.com/y78TdLy

    Test 4: SB - Harrowstorm (3 targets), Curse Bite (3 targets avg), Dreadtheft (3 targets), Tyrannical Curse (1 + 3 minor targets), ED (1 target) = 34.2k + 6.67k (TC) = 40.9k dps.
    http://imgur.com/vb21qP6
    http://imgur.com/ySkBjtY

    Test 5: HB - Harrowstorm (3 targets), Pillar of Power (self, no targets in range), Fiery Bolt (3 targets), Gates of Hell (3-4 targets), Eld Blast (1 target) = 32.4k + 13.7k (gates) = 46.1k dps.
    http://imgur.com/Z0RixnV
    http://imgur.com/hYn5ljF

    Test 6: HB - Harrowstorm (3 targets), Pillar of Power (self, no targets in range), Fiery Bolt (3 targets), Flames of Phleg (1 + 2 minor targets), HRebuke (tab 3 targets) + Eld Blast (1 target) = 45.7k dps.
    http://imgur.com/p9buKrO

    Test 7: HB - Harrowstorm (3 targets), Pillar of Power (3 targets hit/in-range), Fiery Bolt (3 targets), Flames of Phleg (1 + 2 minor targets), HRebuke (tab 3 targets) + Eld Blast (1 target) = 54.4k + 5.83k (pillar) = 60.2k dps.
    http://imgur.com/uGbCn4M
    http://imgur.com/ImjiW6V

    Test 8: HB - Arms of Hadar (2-3 targets), Pillar of Power (self, no targets in-range), Fiery Bolt (3 targets), Gates of Hell (3-4 targets), HRebuke (tab 4 targets) = 35.6k + 5.37k (gates, poor crit rng tho) = 41k dps.
    http://imgur.com/Hhig9lu
    http://imgur.com/Rfej3lY

    Test 9: SB - Arms of Hadar (3 targets), Harrowstorm (3 targets), Fiery Bolt (3 targets), Accursed Souls (4 targets), ED (1 target) = 37.1k + 720 (puppet) = 37.8k dps.
    http://imgur.com/S4f60pU
    http://imgur.com/Qg1mUqK

    Best one is w/ HB and getting all/most targets hit and debuffed by PoP (ex. test 7 vs test 6). As Fury, dps could be a bit higher here overall vs. targets that can be low health and if ur using Executioner's Gift and/or KF/MF.

    -
    On the flipside, testing a single-target SB vs. HB build:

    SB: BotVA, WB, SS, ED, ISpirits (+ AS w/ cleric sigil), Deadly Curse + ACC = 43.4k + 6.1k (spirits) + 150 (puppet) = 49.6k dps.
    http://imgur.com/O6F79xf
    http://imgur.com/6CYdRpH

    HB1: PoP, WB, KF/MF, HRebuke spam, Flames of Phleg, NPNM + FoE = 37.8k dps.
    http://imgur.com/0XHmiBd

    HB2: see HB1, but w/ enemy standing in PoP = 39.5k + 3.16k (pillar) = 42.7k dps.
    http://imgur.com/eSyC7fw
    http://imgur.com/hdyJA8Z

    SS spam ofc wins out here (though the shard changes make it notably slower, imo, due to the cast of Curse not being instant anymore).

    -
    Now.. compare the SW's AoE tests to AoE of other classes, and you'll kinda see why I want a bit more attention made to SW AoE (and dps in general):

    - Trapper HR (using Plant Growth): 78.8k + 5.6k (CoA, which actually worked here) = 84.4k dps.
    (to approximate HR's dps w/o PG/CoA, cut PG's portion by 50-75%, and remove CoA's parse)
    http://imgur.com/nryXHTT
    http://imgur.com/D9ohF9L

    - MoF/Thaum CW (Chilling Pres): 59.6k + 7.5k = 61.1k dps.
    http://imgur.com/bnOm6ur
    http://imgur.com/GYOfFA1

    - SM/Oppressor CW (Chilling Pres + SS): 37.8k + 14.3k = 52.1k dps.
    http://imgur.com/c9awafr
    http://imgur.com/A0fX8bM

    - Prot/Justice OP: 37.2k dps.
    http://imgur.com/QWfPnQp

    - Full dps DC: 34.8k + 21.5k = 56.3k dps.
    http://imgur.com/j2LYyVe
    http://imgur.com/YcmaknX

    - Destroyer GWF: you don't wanna know..


    ...

    ... okay, fine: 117k dps.
    http://imgur.com/abKNxsB


    .. and that's prob the last round of testing I'll do (barring any rounds of large changes). It's getting a bit tiresome.
    Post edited by flowcyto on
    ________________
    <CO docs> .: Petco :. // Base DPS Sheet (needs revision) // PSA on Power Activation Delay
    - Themed Tanks // Misc Build Dump // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • Options
    agante22agante22 Member Posts: 13 Arc User

    agante22 said:

    d4rkh0rs3 said:

    Honestly, we as SWs just need to throw in the towel with PvP.



    We are so far away from being competitive that it will take a complete rework of all the other classes before improvements are seen. I have yet to decide if it is purely the SW that is so bad, or if all the other classes are beyond "broken." My answer for now is both.



    Warlock's Bargain has to be the only encounter in the game that will strip you of 15% of your own health without doing anything to your opponent. Counterintuitive if you ask me.



    Beyond this, PvP has a plethora of queueing and matchup issues. No bueno.



    Right now, I would like to see the kinks worked out of our class before mod 10 drops, play around for a month or so, and then provide constructive, meaningful feedback to @amenar and go from there.

    Still a bit of time left before this goes live so instead of just throwing in the towel and calling GG I'm optimistic they will put some effort in. There could still be some utility to the party with hellbringer temptation in dom but theres are better alternative class choices with more utility.

    A Dom Build for party utility will consist of Temptation/Damnation focusing on pillars and CC.

    Team Buffs
    Pillars- 8% damage while in circle
    Hellish-5% decrease nme damage
    Cruelty-%5 life steal
    Compounded soul- %5 temp HP
    Aura Despair-5% decrease nme damage
    Dark Rev- 20% at 28-30k pwr (easilty attainable).. Does team buff apply on my power or allie power? if so 5-6k bonus off my power
    Soul Bonding-fantastic healing with our intense damage ha...

    I'm going into this mod with the mindset of being a serious underdog making any small victory that much more rewading. Question is will premades be willing offer the charity of having a SW in party we aren't a true striker and utility build is SO SO.
    Hellbringer paragon path now is supporter. If you want striker build, go with soulbinder.
    With HB i did not bad dmg, but when I respected to soulbinder< with same gameplay, my performance increased by 30%. But still its far from competition to real striker classes..

    Warlock need not rebalancing< but redesinging from scratch. Time to old desing go away<.. It was ok in mod 4, and mod 5. Mod 6 show up all its flaws, and till now all problems only shined more and more.
    And only with TT < warlock could sometimes compete with mid geared strikers. While with TC = give up,

    I don't afraid go hard way,, I didn't give up in mod 6, didn't respected to easy dmg sb paragon path when he was in his best ages. But when this mod goes live, I will had 3 options,

    A) give up striker role and become supporter HB Temtation.
    B) give up Hellbringer path, because its not striker path anymore.
    C) give up on warlock and rebuild him to work as warehouse...


    . Enough of trollings, its already require x3 more efforts than CW to fight. Only top end geared guys 4k gs SW compete with 2.8k other strikers..


    p.s All want new class introduction to game.. So here is chance, redesing warlock, so it will be as new class... </p>
    I only concern myself with pvp I have no interest in pew pewing through dungeon content. In regards to soulbinder being more of a striker in pve that may be possible with SS spam and immolation spirits building sparks but when it comes to pvp soulbinder will never beat out HB. I've tested the match up multiple time with the exact same outcome every time.

    Hellbringer currently on test has the ability to 2 rotate CW's and SB warlocks ( of those I've fought) but we are sucking wind at the end of the encounter struggling for heals. I agree with you the class should be flat out reworked the game play is only successful if the stars align, no lag, make your dodges, land crit proc abilities and you have BIS gear. Its a very twitchy complicated class overrun with bugs and unreliable "situtational" burst.

    Your comment in regards to 4k gs SW competing against 2.8k striker is a bit dramatic but a well played 2.9k TR could be extremely competitive in the matchup vs a hellbringer SW.


    P.S. The response on "The Darkness" coming from demon pet during all of fights out on test all pets were idle "in the bag" not left in active slot. So if the "The Darkness" bug is coming from demon/reflect component while inactive this seriously needs to be looked at.
  • Options
    hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,184 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    agante22 said:


    I only concern myself with pvp I have no interest in pew pewing through dungeon content. In regards to soulbinder being more of a striker in pve that may be possible with SS spam and immolation spirits building sparks but when it comes to pvp soulbinder will never beat out HB. I've tested the match up multiple time with the exact same outcome every time.

    Hellbringer currently on test has the ability to 2 rotate CW's and SB warlocks ( of those I've fought) but we are sucking wind at the end of the encounter struggling for heals. I agree with you the class should be flat out reworked the game play is only successful if the stars align, no lag, make your dodges, land crit proc abilities and you have BIS gear. Its a very twitchy complicated class overrun with bugs and unreliable "situtational" burst.

    .


    If enemy stand still, sure with HB I can beat HAMSTER from him :) With DuckOnPlate(PoP) + power of nine hell feat from damnation combo. you can make Pop to give 150% buff. and then apply Debuff + hadar grasp + Kf and numbers are indeed high.


    One thing is clear, no need to measure how many hits you can survive in pvp. Its not like u both stand in front of each other and smashing power buttons/mouse. And last standing = winer. Its not like cabal online, where u hit start combo> then doing 1~5 power skills >repeat.
    Such measuring is gear vs gear competition not pvp.


    p.s @fernuu if you get chance, test Executioniers Gift feat.. << somehow its only start work only when targets Hp become ~20%, and till that no boost....



    Post edited by hadestemplar#9918 on
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

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    candinho2candinho2 Member Posts: 550 Arc User
    flowcyto said:

    Posting some 'AoE' dps tests here. Can't test Infernal Spheres since they don't trigger on dummies now (partly why I'm using Harrowstorm so much- despite its cast anim being annoying atm).

    Test 1: SB - Harrowstorm (3 targets), Curse Bite (3 targets on avg), BotVA (3 targets), Accursed Souls (4 targets), HoB (1 target) = 41.1k + 911 (puppet) = 42k dps.
    http://imgur.com/6ehxfR9
    http://imgur.com/d8YtteQ

    Test 2: SB - Harrowstorm (3 targets), Curse Bite (3 targets avg), BotVA (3 targets), Tyrannical Curse (1 target + 3 minor targets), HoB (1 target) = 34.2k + 5.32k (TC) = 39.5k dps.
    http://imgur.com/PSMTXDy
    http://imgur.com/FngOSZE

    Test 3: SB - Harrowstorm (3 targets), Curse Bite (3 targets avg), Dreadtheft (3 targets), Accursed Souls (4 targets), ED (1 target) = 37.3k + 663 (puppet) = 38k dps.
    http://imgur.com/Y0oBFqI
    http://imgur.com/y78TdLy

    Test 4: SB - Harrowstorm (3 targets), Curse Bite (3 targets avg), Dreadtheft (3 targets), Tyrannical Curse (1 + 3 minor targets), ED (1 target) = 34.2k + 6.67k (TC) = 40.9k dps.
    http://imgur.com/vb21qP6
    http://imgur.com/ySkBjtY

    Test 5: HB - Harrowstorm (3 targets), Pillar of Power (self, no targets in range), Fiery Bolt (3 targets), Gates of Hell (3-4 targets), Eld Blast (1 target) = 32.4k + 13.7k (gates) = 46.1k dps.
    http://imgur.com/Z0RixnV
    http://imgur.com/hYn5ljF

    Test 6: HB - Harrowstorm (3 targets), Pillar of Power (self, no targets in range), Fiery Bolt (3 targets), Flames of Phleg (1 + 2 minor targets), HRebuke (tab 3 targets) + Eld Blast (1 target) = 45.7k dps.
    http://imgur.com/p9buKrO

    Test 7: HB - Harrowstorm (3 targets), Pillar of Power (3 targets hit/in-range), Fiery Bolt (3 targets), Flames of Phleg (1 + 2 minor targets), HRebuke (tab 3 targets) + Eld Blast (1 target) = 54.4k + 5.83k (pillar) = 60.2k dps.
    http://imgur.com/uGbCn4M
    http://imgur.com/ImjiW6V

    Test 8: HB - Arms of Hadar (2-3 targets), Pillar of Power (self, no targets in-range), Fiery Bolt (3 targets), Gates of Hell (3-4 targets), HRebuke (tab 4 targets) = 35.6k + 5.37k (gates, poor crit rng tho) = 41k dps.
    http://imgur.com/Hhig9lu
    http://imgur.com/Rfej3lY

    Test 9: SB - Arms of Hadar (3 targets), Harrowstorm (3 targets), Fiery Bolt (3 targets), Accursed Souls (4 targets), ED (1 target) = 37.1k + 720 (puppet) = 37.8k dps.
    http://imgur.com/S4f60pU
    http://imgur.com/Qg1mUqK

    Best one is w/ HB and getting all/most targets hit and debuffed by PoP (ex. test 7 vs test 6). As Fury, dps could be a bit higher here overall vs. targets that can be low health and if ur using Executioner's Gift and/or KF/MF.

    -
    On the flipside, testing a single-target SB vs. HB build:

    SB: BotVA, WB, SS, ED, ISpirits (+ AS w/ cleric sigil), Deadly Curse + ACC = 43.4k + 6.1k (spirits) + 150 (puppet) = 49.6k dps.
    http://imgur.com/O6F79xf
    http://imgur.com/6CYdRpH

    HB1: PoP, WB, KF/MF, HRebuke spam, Flames of Phleg, NPNM + FoE = 37.8k dps.
    http://imgur.com/0XHmiBd

    HB2: see HB1, but w/ enemy standing in PoP = 39.5k + 3.16k (pillar) = 42.7k dps.
    http://imgur.com/eSyC7fw
    http://imgur.com/hdyJA8Z

    SS spam ofc wins out here (though the shard changes make it notably slower, imo, due to the cast of Curse not being instant anymore).

    -
    Now.. compare the SW's AoE tests to AoE of other classes, and you'll kinda see why I want a bit more attention made to SW AoE (and dps in general):

    - Trapper HR (using Plant Growth): 78.8k + 5.6k (CoA, which actually worked here) = 84.4k dps.
    (to approximate HR's dps w/o PG/CoA, cut PG's portion by 50-75%, and remove CoA's parse)
    http://imgur.com/nryXHTT
    http://imgur.com/D9ohF9L

    - MoF/Thaum CW (Chilling Pres): 59.6k + 7.5k = 61.1k dps.
    http://imgur.com/bnOm6ur
    http://imgur.com/GYOfFA1

    - SM/Oppressor CW (Chilling Pres + SS): 37.8k + 14.3k = 52.1k dps.
    http://imgur.com/c9awafr
    http://imgur.com/A0fX8bM

    - Prot/Justice OP: 37.2k dps.
    http://imgur.com/QWfPnQp

    - Full dps DC: 34.8k + 21.5k = 56.3k dps.
    http://imgur.com/j2LYyVe
    http://imgur.com/YcmaknX

    - Destroyer GWF: you don't wanna know..


    ...

    ... okay, fine: 117k dps.
    http://imgur.com/abKNxsB


    .. and that's prob the last round of testing I'll do (barring any rounds of large changes). It's getting a bit tiresome.

    so a GWF can outdps us with just 1 single atwill kkkk nice work @amenar kkkk on the GWF
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    candinho2candinho2 Member Posts: 550 Arc User
    Guess it's time to give up on warlock and we all make and play GWF, so they get nerfed to the same lv as we are >:)
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    gomok72gomok72 Member Posts: 616 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    weaver936 said:

    Maybe someone knows.. Will a equally equipped HB Fury SW be able to do Comparable dmg as a SB Damnation SW in Mod 10? has there been any testing? I'm wanting to focus on Curses and WB, BoVA, and DT... just curious if that'll work like it did in Mod 5 (my glory days).

    If NOT.. then the Devs basically have wasted their time and everyone else's with tweaking HB. No one really wants to feel inferior in DPS role just because they want to do something other than SB.

    If you are talking PvE, then no, SB dps with the Immolation spirits as Fury is still king, I parsed 100 million over Hellbringer every time. My immolation spirits was up 100% of the time with this new build I created (They should have did this a long time ago). You get all the bonuses from Soul sparks and the damage of immolation, it's crazy (considering I wasn't using any companion buffs or found bugs). Soul Scorch and Immolation synergizes very,very,very well.

    I may not be considered by most the BEST PVP Warlock on the server but, I am the most HATED amongst them.

    -Kymos
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    gomok72gomok72 Member Posts: 616 Arc User
    macjae said:

    Yes, the Shadow Demon Active is The Darkness. It is an awesome thing.

    It's likely broken, since it seems to proc way more than the tooltip would indicate it should. Which is just one of a long list of things that's broken about PvP with companion bonuses on.
    Okay, thanks, Macjae.

    A lot of people don't understand they have to get rid of companions completely to gauge these tests accurately, I been fighting people with active bonus for the last three weeks so a good majority of the information I have put up is very inaccurate and was a waste of my time.

    It doesn't help that the developers have not fixed the logs to accurately list where the damage is coming from on preview, in my opinion.

    I may not be considered by most the BEST PVP Warlock on the server but, I am the most HATED amongst them.

    -Kymos
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    schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    So in the end SB>HB in dungeons esp. on single target and Warlock is a "no go" in PVP?
    Like a "deja vue" :smile:
    No offense, amenar did a good job, but the task was way to much, too many problems about that class

    @agante22 did you run 25/15 fury/ temp?
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    weaver936weaver936 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 443 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    Most of my renewed excitement for this game was rooted in the chance that I could use my old HB/Fury build to compete again. Sadly.. from what it looks like.. it's still the stupid SB SW that will rule.

    Fangbreaker is a nice challenging dungeon.. that is great.. but my main interests in classes being nerfed or gimped (unless I play one specific way) is really discouraging. Something really has to be done...
    “Improvise, Adapt and Overcome!”

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    Guild Leader of Ardent Justice HQ: Always recruiting People not Pixels.


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    candinho2candinho2 Member Posts: 550 Arc User
    agante22 said:

    agante22 said:

    d4rkh0rs3 said:

    Honestly, we as SWs just need to throw in the towel with PvP.



    We are so far away from being competitive that it will take a complete rework of all the other classes before improvements are seen. I have yet to decide if it is purely the SW that is so bad, or if all the other classes are beyond "broken." My answer for now is both.



    Warlock's Bargain has to be the only encounter in the game that will strip you of 15% of your own health without doing anything to your opponent. Counterintuitive if you ask me.



    Beyond this, PvP has a plethora of queueing and matchup issues. No bueno.



    Right now, I would like to see the kinks worked out of our class before mod 10 drops, play around for a month or so, and then provide constructive, meaningful feedback to @amenar and go from there.

    Still a bit of time left before this goes live so instead of just throwing in the towel and calling GG I'm optimistic they will put some effort in. There could still be some utility to the party with hellbringer temptation in dom but theres are better alternative class choices with more utility.

    A Dom Build for party utility will consist of Temptation/Damnation focusing on pillars and CC.

    Team Buffs
    Pillars- 8% damage while in circle
    Hellish-5% decrease nme damage
    Cruelty-%5 life steal
    Compounded soul- %5 temp HP
    Aura Despair-5% decrease nme damage
    Dark Rev- 20% at 28-30k pwr (easilty attainable).. Does team buff apply on my power or allie power? if so 5-6k bonus off my power
    Soul Bonding-fantastic healing with our intense damage ha...

    I'm going into this mod with the mindset of being a serious underdog making any small victory that much more rewading. Question is will premades be willing offer the charity of having a SW in party we aren't a true striker and utility build is SO SO.
    Hellbringer paragon path now is supporter. If you want striker build, go with soulbinder.
    With HB i did not bad dmg, but when I respected to soulbinder< with same gameplay, my performance increased by 30%. But still its far from competition to real striker classes..

    Warlock need not rebalancing< but redesinging from scratch. Time to old desing go away<.. It was ok in mod 4, and mod 5. Mod 6 show up all its flaws, and till now all problems only shined more and more.
    And only with TT < warlock could sometimes compete with mid geared strikers. While with TC = give up,

    I don't afraid go hard way,, I didn't give up in mod 6, didn't respected to easy dmg sb paragon path when he was in his best ages. But when this mod goes live, I will had 3 options,

    A) give up striker role and become supporter HB Temtation.
    B) give up Hellbringer path, because its not striker path anymore.
    C) give up on warlock and rebuild him to work as warehouse...


    . Enough of trollings, its already require x3 more efforts than CW to fight. Only top end geared guys 4k gs SW compete with 2.8k other strikers..


    p.s All want new class introduction to game.. So here is chance, redesing warlock, so it will be as new class... </p>
    I only concern myself with pvp I have no interest in pew pewing through dungeon content. In regards to soulbinder being more of a striker in pve that may be possible with SS spam and immolation spirits building sparks but when it comes to pvp soulbinder will never beat out HB. I've tested the match up multiple time with the exact same outcome every time.

    Hellbringer currently on test has the ability to 2 rotate CW's and SB warlocks ( of those I've fought) but we are sucking wind at the end of the encounter struggling for heals. I agree with you the class should be flat out reworked the game play is only successful if the stars align, no lag, make your dodges, land crit proc abilities and you have BIS gear. Its a very twitchy complicated class overrun with bugs and unreliable "situtational" burst.

    Your comment in regards to 4k gs SW competing against 2.8k striker is a bit dramatic but a well played 2.9k TR could be extremely competitive in the matchup vs a hellbringer SW.


    P.S. The response on "The Darkness" coming from demon pet during all of fights out on test all pets were idle "in the bag" not left in active slot. So if the "The Darkness" bug is coming from demon/reflect component while inactive this seriously needs to be looked at.
    i realy wanna test my sb against you, do you have time today 12h gmt-3 it's 7:54 here so it should take 4h.
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    duckntrollduckntroll Member Posts: 95 Arc User

    No offense, amenar did a good job, but the task was way to much, too many problems about that class

    No, he did not do a good job.
    First thing to do was take step back about what they want to achieve: for this rework, for these classes and for this game (pve & pvp).

    They only stated garbage as to why they made thoses changes for.

    It let us guess what was really their goal through changes really done
    • Nerfing TT
    • Nerfing Puppet
    • Minor/Medium changes to useless powers, for most of them remaing useless
    and not done
    • Nothing done for classes balancing
    • Nothing done for SB > HB balancing
    • Stated as nothing done for Temptation 'now', but HB Templock are luckily and strangly the only winners of theses changes. If they farm enough to get 30% LS and 40%+ ArPen (minimum to be able to facetank HE) then they can become decent party buffer and healer

    So from these changes what did they really want to achive?
    • Obviously they didn't care about SW reworks
    • They care about fixing what they think are bugs
    • They care about temporizing miscontentment by doing more or less what fernuu (and some others) ask ( It mean they don't care mutch of players who aren't recognized nor BiS, it's just the vast marjority )
    ( Sorry fernuu (and some others) but you will be used as an excuse when things will go bad. Things will go bad, beeing pointed as an excuse will disgust you, you will probably leave the game, and proving their excuses are right at the cost of only few players. That's an excellent cost worthy temporization for them! )
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    fernuufernuu Member Posts: 453 Arc User
    There's a little minor trick that could be done to increase flat damage. Increase the weapon damage.

    All ranged weapons deal same damage while meele has diversity between classes. So healer, controller or striker at range - doesn't matter. Make it be buffed by 10% for strikers which will occur in nice buff, while still be lower than any meele weapon's damage.
    https://youtube.com/c/FernuStormborn

    Mod 10:
    [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Killing Flames deals 16636893 (1009292) Fire Damage to Ethraniev Marrowslake.

    Mod 9:
    [Combat (Self)] Your Murderous Flames deals 376274433 (18876929) Fire Damage to Red Tiamat Head.
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    fernuufernuu Member Posts: 453 Arc User
    Shadow Slip activation not always mitigates everfrost damage
    https://youtube.com/c/FernuStormborn

    Mod 10:
    [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Killing Flames deals 16636893 (1009292) Fire Damage to Ethraniev Marrowslake.

    Mod 9:
    [Combat (Self)] Your Murderous Flames deals 376274433 (18876929) Fire Damage to Red Tiamat Head.
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    naoqueroforumnaoqueroforum Member Posts: 225 Arc User
    Something I have been thinking about the soul puppet on preview is how not so useful it is for paths other than damnation, and how fragile it is for damnation itself.
    I'd say the "permanent" part of the damnation capstone should be there for every puppet regardless of tree. Or at least make it last the whole 2 minutes regardless of how many times it attacked. That way, soul investiture could refresh its duration and be relevant for paths other than damnation.

    As for damnation, the "permanent" of the old capstone could actually be permanent as in making it actually immune to everything, even control effects. That could make the tree somewhat more relevant in pvp, and more so in pve, specially if the capstone also allowed soul investiture to stack twice as much and last longer. Given the changes in the puppet damage, that still wouldn't make it op as before (probably). It would also be a little boost to temptation.

    I wasn't able to test the puppet in the preview server with proper buffs, and I don't think I found @fernuu ACT log for his run with damnation, so I would love to see that and make sure I didn't exaggerate on the puppet thing.

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    fernuufernuu Member Posts: 453 Arc User
    Tyrannical Curse + Priestess of Sehanine Moonbow interaction bugged
    Using this (not sure if only this) companion and casting Tyrannical Curse we're attacking party members, including ourselves. It's look really great in buff parties when SW can wipe whole party :)

    Preview
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT5HWV0eLLQ

    Live:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcLxideT7gM
    https://youtube.com/c/FernuStormborn

    Mod 10:
    [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Killing Flames deals 16636893 (1009292) Fire Damage to Ethraniev Marrowslake.

    Mod 9:
    [Combat (Self)] Your Murderous Flames deals 376274433 (18876929) Fire Damage to Red Tiamat Head.
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    agante22agante22 Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    Got several more competitive 1 v 1 s in preview pvp over past 2 days and all my attempts at staying positive pretty much are gone out the window. Majority of HR's on test have dialed in their builds with wild medicine healing making them impossible to kill and piercing damage on properly specced toons is a death sentence 1-2 shot. Top tier GFs rolling through easily are putting smack down on me.

    Looks like Friday we get a patch to finally fix murderous flames r4 but I see nothing in the notes from last Friday about a fix to major component of soulbinder. BIS hellbringer with %35 combat advantage (constant), 20% curse dmg, 12% flames of empowerment, Pillars r4, 20k pwr, 20k ap should be able to do a lot more damage. Hellish rebuke animation sticks while trying to shadow and harrowstorm, only way to prone, is damn near impossible to get off with long animation time and deactivation if the wind blows my direction.


    At our current state we are much better off without any adjustments until the Devs have the time to devote all more attention to our class specifically.

    Just loaded launcher and the count down meter to Mod10 release is reading more like a death clock to all Warlocks. Heres to Dev team putting in some work before launch!

    p.s. Fernu good find not only are we killing ourselves with "darkness" from demon our other pets are able to as well. Awesome...
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    flowcytoflowcyto Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 196 Arc User
    edited August 2016
    weaver936 said:

    Most of my renewed excitement for this game was rooted in the chance that I could use my old HB/Fury build to compete again. Sadly.. from what it looks like.. it's still the stupid SB SW that will rule.

    HB will be better for AoE grinding in many cases, but yeah for single-target and burst dps, SB's SS spam still rules. HB's survival toolkit also considerably went up- and at least solo, survival was one of HB's biggest issues, imo.

    DPS in general just needs to be improved for the class. At this point I wouldn't really be opposed to a blanket buff to everything :p It seems that the devs under-estimated how much the class relied on bugged interactions to remain competitive, and gutting those things exposed a quite weak under-belly. The devs aren't done, though, and we have a dev's word on getting Tempt re-worked, so there's still hope... just prob not for mod 10's launch :/
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