@flowcyto: If you were attacking just one dummy, Rapid Strike would do considerably more damage than the others, but with CtG and SS you're attacking at least two targets so the numbers will be skewed
Just to clarify: I was only hitting one target (the lone test dummy in IWD that's not surrounded by anything else than can be damaged), so yea these are all single-target dps tests, effectively. So yes, my tests show that even just vs. one target, CtG and Split Strike ideally are very close to Rapid Strike's dps for Combat.
Treesclimber- thanks. I will look into other trees and some more general (aoe and single target) tests later (I'm curious about Archery's tighter AoE dps and how the 'best' single-target dps setups compare between the 3 paths now- though I suspect Archery is the king of that aspect). Not great timing atm irl, but I hope others can get to the shard and muck about w/ rotations when they can.
I guess for the console peeps here: are there any powers (or combos of powers) ur esp curious about? Maybe those of us that can access the shard can look into it for you? I can't do any high-end stuff, pvp, or much group content, but maybe others could.
Yes please... my specific rotation is Pathfinder with Longstriders>Constricting>Hindering with Disruptive Shot and Slasher's Mark as my Dailies, Hunters Teamwork/CA and Rapid Shot/Strike as At-Will's. SM only takes 75% of AP so I can fire both Ranged and Melee Daily in each rotation pretty much.
Aspect of the Serpent and Aspect of the Pack are my Passives with Off-Hand as Pack. 1400 points in Combat Advantage.
I actually have videos I have posted on the HR forums where you can see my rotation in action
Main - Rydia (HR70) - Xbox One Player only Alts : Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
I play on Xbox so I cannot add any suggestions that are supported by facts but I will add my observations
1) Why is this thread 45 pages when SW GF are 1/4 the size ? 2) How many respec tokens do I need when these changes go live over/under 20 3) Class Balance means what? PVE PVP or the paths with the class ?
I am losing hope that the flexibility I have with my HR in PVE now will be lost after these changes
i would trade HR dodges for sprint anytime. If i could get a cc break on top i would even pay for it.
i love the dodge way more then any sprint or block. it allows the hr to be more survivabal.
maybe you should go try the changes in preview after 150 posts in this very thread without having tested nothing. If you are hoping for some special dodge changes the difference is none. FEEDBACK: if its not now, i would still like to express my desire to see our dodges converted to sprint (maybe like the new reworked shadowslip) and stamina regen values finally fixed (45+ seconds to get a full bar). For not american players lag + dodges bad coded are not nice at all. I would trade them anytime and it would fix the fact that a DEX based class is actually the slowest in game. I hardly doubt anyone would have something to say: since 50% of the time you dont dodge the damage, 50% of time you dont dodge the control, 40% of the times you dont dodge both while still being slower than a turtle
HR does use a special ninja sprint run animation on occasion. Not sure how it's triggered though.
That is a Daily Slashers Mark which uses 75-100% AP and the best way for this turtle to cover any ground quickly ex Edemo
Rayrdan is right HR is the slowest class bar none you can dodge all of 4 feet what 5-6 times before you run out of stamina
HR does use a special ninja sprint run animation on occasion. Not sure how it's triggered though.
It's fox's shift, the melee of Fox's Cunning, it supposedly gives you a bonus movement speed and snare your target, the animation is there but not the bonuses.
You are both wrong here, the animation is not from Slasher's Mark or Fox's Shift... It is like a semi-glitched animation a little like a cross between Fox's Shift and some sort of TR skill.
Also @ralexinor and others going on about this perma-daze HR in PvP. I can tell these guys have not done any proper PvP for a while and deffo not on a console.
I cannot remember the last person I actually stunned in any way, everyone is immune to dazes etc... so much so that Crushing Roots became just useless to equip. Everyone has a Trans Elven in PvP and other buffs to CC resist.
This permadaze you speak of is extremely old.
Main - Rydia (HR70) - Xbox One Player only Alts : Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
Piercing Blade need be halved in PVP, this is enough as it´s now again doing real piercing damage.
Since of Battle Crazed rework (which is good) I suggest to change Fluid Hunter (as this one has become useless) have it provide 5/7.5/10/12.5/15% Movement which is what Combat tree is missing.
FEEDBACK: Combat's new Piercing Blades damage is ridiculous in PvP and makes the class weaker in PvE. The new PB is pretty ridiculous when I'm doing 40k split strikes regardless of target DR (1k base split strike, x2 7-9k blade hurricane, x2 10-12k piercing blades), and things like Plant Growth are hitting for 120k. Right now, with subpar gear, I'm able to melt BiS opponents in seconds, through both insignias and other heals. This needs some scaling back.
I can post videos and ACT logs as evidence if required, but this is absolutely ridiculous.
Then the PB is bugged, if you hit with PG, the initial hit should only proc PB, its a spell DoT as far as i know, only the initial hit is a melee damage, changed to proc BS. Even with all the dots procing PB it should not do 120k damage, no where near it.
The PG initial hit is, what, lets say around 8k, and each 3x dot around the same 8k those x 1.5 and we are somewhere near 50k before DR, so somethings fishy.
PB uses non-mitigated damage as the base, so, if ya hit around 2000 Split Strike before mitigation the PB does half of that as damage thats 2000+1000 on the initial hit to proc BH then the 2 hits with 1.65 times more damage, 3300 each, of those 1650 for PB each, we're at
2000+1000(Splits PB dmg)+6600(BH dmg)+3300(BH PB dmg) =4300 piercing dmg + Splits and BHs 8600 dmg before DR
and you got 2 secs to pop that Split Strike. So a fair chunk of damage still per flurry even after DR. And good burst capabilities when in melee.
But if the Split Strike hits with 40k per flurry, then also some fishiness there.
At least thats how i would perceive the dmg should work.
Unless, it calculates from crits. Then the damage will go thru the roof regardless.
You are both wrong here, the animation is not from Slasher's Mark or Fox's Shift... It is like a semi-glitched animation a little like a cross between Fox's Shift and some sort of TR skill.
Also @ralexinor and others going on about this perma-daze HR in PvP. I can tell these guys have not done any proper PvP for a while and deffo not on a console.
I cannot remember the last person I actually stunned in any way, everyone is immune to dazes etc... so much so that Crushing Roots became just useless to equip. Everyone has a Trans Elven in PvP and other buffs to CC resist.
This permadaze you speak of is extremely old.
I can tell you lack some knowledge of PvP mechanics.
First of all, yes, Elven Battle is a big culprit in negating the effects of permadaze, but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's the existence and possibility of permadaze that's the issue here, not the fact that it can be negated by Elven Battle (which is an issue in itself, as it destroys the viability of several builds and overall supersedes several game mechanics). Not everyone uses Elven Battle, nor does everyone have access to it. You could argue that "that's their fault for not using or having one, I'm entitled to do whatever I want if I pay for it!", but at the end of the day, permadaze does exist and no one likes to fight against it. While I am primarily a high-end premade player when it comes to PvP, and rarely participate in pug matches on my HR, I can still see the perspective of PvP from the view of a non-premade player. The gear gap in PvP has been becoming ever so wide in the last few modules, given all the extra items/gear/boons/etc. they've added, as well as certain classes being far more powerful than others (although this latter point has always been the case to a certain extent). It's not easy for a more casual player to have access to a TEB, and without one, it's very difficult and frustrating to fight against a permadaze spec, even taking class into consideration. You need to understand this point, too, not just from your own view.
CC resist stat has nothing to do with why "everyone is immune to dazes", as you put it, since you separated that from Elven Battle. CC resist is a divisive stat instead of being multiplicative and hence doesn't have much effect against CC duration, except in enormous amounts such as Elven Battle. At Perfect+ levels, Elven Battle actually gives 200% to your control resist stat, which ends up being an 80% duration decrease. You have maybe 10% control resist here and there, but that stat is largely ineffective. I don't remember the exact formula for it right now, but I can look it up for you if you're interested.
Permadaze still does exist, but it's far less obvious or prominent than it used to be. However, geared players are not the only ones that exist in the game, and being forced to slot a TEB to fight a permadaze hr is a bit silly, especially since it removes some diversity in both builds and gear choices in this case. Additionally, having interrupts all the time is still annoying to fight against, regardless of being actually CC'd or not.
Thorned roots even after yesterday patch does not tick 11 times without ancient roots feated. Pathfinder action duration if reduced by 80% if im wearing an elven battle.
Ambush is perfect. Please take a look at how we can make bear trap a viable encounter. Ambush really deserves to be used now... Strange interaction with swiftness of the fox effectively fixed.
new combat damage is really fitting a melee striker. Please dont kill it for the love of god
Then the PB is bugged, if you hit with PG, the initial hit should only proc PB, its a spell DoT as far as i know, only the initial hit is a melee damage, changed to proc BS. Even with all the dots procing PB it should not do 120k damage, no where near it.
The PG initial hit is, what, lets say around 8k, and each 3x dot around the same 8k those x 1.5 and we are somewhere near 50k before DR, so somethings fishy.
PB uses non-mitigated damage as the base, so, if ya hit around 2000 Split Strike before mitigation the PB does half of that as damage thats 2000+1000 on the initial hit to proc BH then the 2 hits with 1.65 times more damage, 3300 each, of those 1650 for PB each, we're at
2000+1000(Splits PB dmg)+6600(BH dmg)+3300(BH PB dmg) =4300 piercing dmg + Splits and BHs 8600 dmg before DR
and you got 2 secs to pop that Split Strike. So a fair chunk of damage still per flurry even after DR. And good burst capabilities when in melee.
But if the Split Strike hits with 40k per flurry, then also some fishiness there.
At least thats how i would perceive the dmg should work.
Unless, it calculates from crits. Then the damage will go thru the roof regardless.
I don't think that's necessarily something that should be implemented, because you're effectively gimping a skill out of 50% damage. I can't remember if PG exactly is specifically a DoT or not, but the DoT is still a large portion of the skill, but this is for the devs to decide. I would keep in mind though, that Piercing Blades specifically state "melee attacks", so who knows.
Piercing damage calculates from base damage, which includes critical damage and certain damage buffs, such as Lucky Blades, so the damage I'm saying is not unreasonable, I even posted logs of a 100k Plant Growth, which was actually far weaker than it should have been because I didn't have some damage feats at the time (testing etc.). Split Strike doesn't hit 40k per flurry, but the damage including flurry + split strike + piercing blades is 40k on a player (more on a dummy).
Then the PB is bugged, if you hit with PG, the initial hit should only proc PB, its a spell DoT as far as i know, only the initial hit is a melee damage, changed to proc BS. Even with all the dots procing PB it should not do 120k damage, no where near it.
The PG initial hit is, what, lets say around 8k, and each 3x dot around the same 8k those x 1.5 and we are somewhere near 50k before DR, so somethings fishy.
PB uses non-mitigated damage as the base, so, if ya hit around 2000 Split Strike before mitigation the PB does half of that as damage thats 2000+1000 on the initial hit to proc BH then the 2 hits with 1.65 times more damage, 3300 each, of those 1650 for PB each, we're at
2000+1000(Splits PB dmg)+6600(BH dmg)+3300(BH PB dmg) =4300 piercing dmg + Splits and BHs 8600 dmg before DR
and you got 2 secs to pop that Split Strike. So a fair chunk of damage still per flurry even after DR. And good burst capabilities when in melee.
But if the Split Strike hits with 40k per flurry, then also some fishiness there.
At least thats how i would perceive the dmg should work.
Unless, it calculates from crits. Then the damage will go thru the roof regardless.
I don't think that's necessarily something that should be implemented, because you're effectively gimping a skill out of 50% damage. I can't remember if PG exactly is specifically a DoT or not, but the DoT is still a large portion of the skill, but this is for the devs to decide. I would keep in mind though, that Piercing Blades specifically state "melee attacks", so who knows.
Piercing damage calculates from base damage, which includes critical damage and certain damage buffs, such as Lucky Blades, so the damage I'm saying is not unreasonable, I even posted logs of a 100k Plant Growth, which was actually far weaker than it should have been because I didn't have some damage feats at the time (testing etc.). Split Strike doesn't hit 40k per flurry, but the damage including flurry + split strike + piercing blades is 40k on a player (more on a dummy).
Piercing Blades feat: Now truly deals Piercing damage again, meaning the additional damage is determined based on the unmitigated damage of the attack.
That was on the new preview notes, its just that, does PB calculate after or before any buffs, world of difference. No mention of base damage just unmitigated. So in theory you could hit PG with PB and all the mustered buffs u can get.
Scenario where a PG is buffed out like this and crits in with PB, the damage is insane at that point, same with buffed critical at-will+flurry+PB.
They need to tone PB down, this is way too much burst.
PS. Cant remeber the post but Amenar was the one pointing out the PG is basicly a Spell, allthough a melee encounter, but they changed the initial hit of it to be a pure melee hit, so u could proc Blade Storm with it. The post is somewhere in this thread.
You are both wrong here, the animation is not from Slasher's Mark or Fox's Shift... It is like a semi-glitched animation a little like a cross between Fox's Shift and some sort of TR skill.
Also @ralexinor and others going on about this perma-daze HR in PvP. I can tell these guys have not done any proper PvP for a while and deffo not on a console.
I cannot remember the last person I actually stunned in any way, everyone is immune to dazes etc... so much so that Crushing Roots became just useless to equip. Everyone has a Trans Elven in PvP and other buffs to CC resist.
This permadaze you speak of is extremely old.
I can tell you lack some knowledge of PvP mechanics.
First of all, yes, Elven Battle is a big culprit in negating the effects of permadaze, but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's the existence and possibility of permadaze that's the issue here, not the fact that it can be negated by Elven Battle (which is an issue in itself, as it destroys the viability of several builds and overall supersedes several game mechanics). Not everyone uses Elven Battle, nor does everyone have access to it. You could argue that "that's their fault for not using or having one, I'm entitled to do whatever I want if I pay for it!", but at the end of the day, permadaze does exist and no one likes to fight against it. While I am primarily a high-end premade player when it comes to PvP, and rarely participate in pug matches on my HR, I can still see the perspective of PvP from the view of a non-premade player. The gear gap in PvP has been becoming ever so wide in the last few modules, given all the extra items/gear/boons/etc. they've added, as well as certain classes being far more powerful than others (although this latter point has always been the case to a certain extent). It's not easy for a more casual player to have access to a TEB, and without one, it's very difficult and frustrating to fight against a permadaze spec, even taking class into consideration. You need to understand this point, too, not just from your own view.
CC resist stat has nothing to do with why "everyone is immune to dazes", as you put it, since you separated that from Elven Battle. CC resist is a divisive stat instead of being multiplicative and hence doesn't have much effect against CC duration, except in enormous amounts such as Elven Battle. At Perfect+ levels, Elven Battle actually gives 200% to your control resist stat, which ends up being an 80% duration decrease. You have maybe 10% control resist here and there, but that stat is largely ineffective. I don't remember the exact formula for it right now, but I can look it up for you if you're interested.
Permadaze still does exist, but it's far less obvious or prominent than it used to be. However, geared players are not the only ones that exist in the game, and being forced to slot a TEB to fight a permadaze hr is a bit silly, especially since it removes some diversity in both builds and gear choices in this case. Additionally, having interrupts all the time is still annoying to fight against, regardless of being actually CC'd or not.
Honestly I am telling you, in PvP on the X1 just about everyone I come across uses a Trans Elven due to the amount of Control Powers in the game. Until I equipped one it was just a game of Dazed/Stunned/Frozen without being able to do a thing. With a Trans Elven and CC resist boons etc I can move... massive difference.
Yes I may be causing Interrupts on them but what ever rotation I use people just do not become perma-stunned.
The only people I can stun a lot are people who do have different Enchants Equipped, not many of those around though.
Main - Rydia (HR70) - Xbox One Player only Alts : Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
Then the PB is bugged, if you hit with PG, the initial hit should only proc PB, its a spell DoT as far as i know, only the initial hit is a melee damage, changed to proc BS. Even with all the dots procing PB it should not do 120k damage, no where near it.
The PG initial hit is, what, lets say around 8k, and each 3x dot around the same 8k those x 1.5 and we are somewhere near 50k before DR, so somethings fishy.
PB uses non-mitigated damage as the base, so, if ya hit around 2000 Split Strike before mitigation the PB does half of that as damage thats 2000+1000 on the initial hit to proc BH then the 2 hits with 1.65 times more damage, 3300 each, of those 1650 for PB each, we're at
2000+1000(Splits PB dmg)+6600(BH dmg)+3300(BH PB dmg) =4300 piercing dmg + Splits and BHs 8600 dmg before DR
and you got 2 secs to pop that Split Strike. So a fair chunk of damage still per flurry even after DR. And good burst capabilities when in melee.
But if the Split Strike hits with 40k per flurry, then also some fishiness there.
At least thats how i would perceive the dmg should work.
Unless, it calculates from crits. Then the damage will go thru the roof regardless.
I don't think that's necessarily something that should be implemented, because you're effectively gimping a skill out of 50% damage. I can't remember if PG exactly is specifically a DoT or not, but the DoT is still a large portion of the skill, but this is for the devs to decide. I would keep in mind though, that Piercing Blades specifically state "melee attacks", so who knows.
Piercing damage calculates from base damage, which includes critical damage and certain damage buffs, such as Lucky Blades, so the damage I'm saying is not unreasonable, I even posted logs of a 100k Plant Growth, which was actually far weaker than it should have been because I didn't have some damage feats at the time (testing etc.). Split Strike doesn't hit 40k per flurry, but the damage including flurry + split strike + piercing blades is 40k on a player (more on a dummy).
Piercing Blades feat: Now truly deals Piercing damage again, meaning the additional damage is determined based on the unmitigated damage of the attack.
That was on the new preview notes, its just that, does PB calculate after or before any buffs, world of difference. No mention of base damage just unmitigated. So in theory you could hit PG with PB and all the mustered buffs u can get.
Scenario where a PG is buffed out like this and crits in with PB, the damage is insane at that point, same with buffed critical at-will+flurry+PB.
They need to tone PB down, this is way too much burst.
PS. Cant remeber the post but Amenar was the one pointing out the PG is basicly a Spell, allthough a melee encounter, but they changed the initial hit of it to be a pure melee hit, so u could proc Blade Storm with it. The post is somewhere in this thread.
Holy ****!!!! was writing when ya posted, jeebus look at that PB.
lol, we are back to exactly what I 1st thought, Plant Growth is over powered... It should have been nerfed and the other Encounter/Daily/At-Will Powers given substantial boosts. You can tell it is over powered as a stupidly high number of people equip it.
It is almost like CoA/PG is a mod 11 power and all our other Encounter/Daily/At-Will Powers are Mod 6-8, damage wise.
Main - Rydia (HR70) - Xbox One Player only Alts : Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
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Ambush is perfect. Please take a look at how we can make bear trap a viable encounter. Ambush really deserves to be used now... Strange interaction with swiftness of the fox effectively fixed.
Were it possible to swap the pathfinder paragon feats quarry and its combat counterpart so that archery has the prolongued duration of ambush while combat has the damage increase on careful attack affected enemies? I think both specs could make better use if done so. Its far easier for combat to apply careful attack while it is awesome to finally be able to play the sniper from ambush, now as the effect does not end when starting aimed shot (what had rendered the encounter quite useless in my opinion)
Sadly bear trap is quite useless. I was just playing around with my archer and thought that ambush now finally functions the way it should have done since the beginning. Therefore i think it is a great encounter and it is a shame that its counterpart is so pathetic. Maybe if the traps diameter would be the same as cordons or at least the old roa, thus able to trap more than one foe (and even that only if youre lucky enough to place the trap right in front of the foe) it could be useful as a defensive mechanism for archers on the run, enabling them toget some distance to the foes
Maybe time to bring it up again Ambush is awesome now, please please change bear trap
for the record PG is not overpowered. It is our strongest encounter yes but that doesn't make it over powered. Other classes all have big damage encounters. In our guild the power classes GWF can hit for 800 to 1mil for 1 buffed up encounter Cw can hit up to 1.4 mil and TRs can drop buffed encounters at around 1mil. The best I have seen on a HR is 570k on cordon and 670k Sezmic don't fall prey to the nerf squad coming in and keep the OMG this over powered out of the thread. We need to focus on bugs only from here out. HR is in a better place and closer to balance across all trees. Combat piercing is still no where close to High damage of CWF GF or TRs. and its not active for as long as others. So may want to adjust the damage up a little but lets wait till all the changes are live for final adjustments
yep tree are more on par with each other; all but combat. now we just need to get combat on par with other trees, then get the hr as a whole on par with other classes. like any glass this game is an rpg play as you want to play and have fun like any other class and like all classes; all classes can tank/heal/dps/control/buff. you got to spec for what you want and just enjoy the playstyle you made for yourself and having fun is half the game. the other half is grinding =P.
thanks all for the good comments as to how to get the tree specs more on par with each other. once combat is on par with the rest of the hr tree's. we can hopefully have enough time to get the hr as a whole on par with the other classes
@flowcyto: If you were attacking just one dummy, Rapid Strike would do considerably more damage than the others, but with CtG and SS you're attacking at least two targets so the numbers will be skewed
Just to clarify: I was only hitting one target (the lone test dummy in IWD that's not surrounded by anything else than can be damaged), so yea these are all single-target dps tests, effectively. So yes, my tests show that even just vs. one target, CtG and Split Strike ideally are very close to Rapid Strike's dps for Combat.
Treesclimber- thanks. I will look into other trees and some more general (aoe and single target) tests later (I'm curious about Archery's tighter AoE dps and how the 'best' single-target dps setups compare between the 3 paths now- though I suspect Archery is the king of that aspect). Not great timing atm irl, but I hope others can get to the shard and muck about w/ rotations when they can.
I guess for the console peeps here: are there any powers (or combos of powers) ur esp curious about? Maybe those of us that can access the shard can look into it for you? I can't do any high-end stuff, pvp, or much group content, but maybe others could.
Yes please... my specific rotation is Pathfinder with Longstriders>Constricting>Hindering with Disruptive Shot and Slasher's Mark as my Dailies, Hunters Teamwork/CA and Rapid Shot/Strike as At-Will's. SM only takes 75% of AP so I can fire both Ranged and Melee Daily in each rotation pretty much.
Aspect of the Serpent and Aspect of the Pack are my Passives with Off-Hand as Pack. 1400 points in Combat Advantage.
I actually have videos I have posted on the HR forums where you can see my rotation in action
Since I use an augment for all my tests, having CA in there would throw it off rel to the other tests I run. So I just slotted Crushing in the 2nd passive slot as a sort of 'default' for Trapper. So yeah, w/ CA this could be even better.
That said, testing vs. the lone dummy (single-target dps):
Unlike w/ live, the smoothness of the rotation isn't dependent on the # targets hit, and for this one I rarely had to use an at-will outside of DA every melee stance. Only messed up LS's buff a few times, and sometimes didn't have quite enough AP for Slasher's, though I could still throw Slasher's into the majority of the rotations at my gear level (5k recovery atm). Overall it looks like a quite-strong setup still, and esp impressive considering its not using PG/CoA at all.
I don't think Trappers have to worry too much about the SotF changes messing up rotations. Even then, the new R4 Aimed Shot is basically like a moderate-hitting spammable encounter now, so having to use it a bit more here and there isn't really all that bad. On the flipside, single-target dps is up on all fronts.
You should consider that Combat HR is a kamikaze in PVP, you can land a PG, and by the time animation ends, you are already dead, you don't have any stun or any power that deal that much damage for 15 secs, and since you are melee you can just try to run and hide meanwhile because you don't have any way to do damage in range, so GF or GWF will slice you like butter.
It's not related to Hunters but I see Bronzewood ench was fixed so. BUG: Transcendent Terror Enchantment doesn't reduce Power as it described. Moreover it doesn't root targets.
You should consider that Combat HR is a kamikaze in PVP, you can land a PG, and by the time animation ends, you are already dead, you don't have any stun or any power that deal that much damage for 15 secs, and since you are melee you can just try to run and hide meanwhile because you don't have any way to do damage in range, so GF or GWF will slice you like butter.
Not when you have 80% deflect. Combat HRs are the tankiest of all the trees atm. If you're being "[sliced] like butter" as Combat HR, you don't know how to build or play.
@ralexinor exactly. I see combat HR deflect possibilites being a huge problem in PvP. There are already many viable HR deflect builds that are so tanky, and now the melee tree will have another 10% on top of that (from Battle Crazed)... whew.
Edit: I can see all the Power, Recovery, Deflect builds without stacking any armor pen on their way now...
null Maby @relaxinor but as combat; Gf still going to 1rotate you Gwf will still outrun you and probably kill you between cooldowns Sw same OP will still be immortal Tr will exe Itc Etc etc
So maby (still ned to see it after things go live) Hr also have 1or 2 valid builds.
Or is your suggestion we gimp Hr so they still can not compete while we wait another year or so for some adjustment to the other classes ?
@flowcyto: If you were attacking just one dummy, Rapid Strike would do considerably more damage than the others, but with CtG and SS you're attacking at least two targets so the numbers will be skewed
Just to clarify: I was only hitting one target (the lone test dummy in IWD that's not surrounded by anything else than can be damaged), so yea these are all single-target dps tests, effectively. So yes, my tests show that even just vs. one target, CtG and Split Strike ideally are very close to Rapid Strike's dps for Combat.
Treesclimber- thanks. I will look into other trees and some more general (aoe and single target) tests later (I'm curious about Archery's tighter AoE dps and how the 'best' single-target dps setups compare between the 3 paths now- though I suspect Archery is the king of that aspect). Not great timing atm irl, but I hope others can get to the shard and muck about w/ rotations when they can.
I guess for the console peeps here: are there any powers (or combos of powers) ur esp curious about? Maybe those of us that can access the shard can look into it for you? I can't do any high-end stuff, pvp, or much group content, but maybe others could.
Yes please... my specific rotation is Pathfinder with Longstriders>Constricting>Hindering with Disruptive Shot and Slasher's Mark as my Dailies, Hunters Teamwork/CA and Rapid Shot/Strike as At-Will's. SM only takes 75% of AP so I can fire both Ranged and Melee Daily in each rotation pretty much.
Aspect of the Serpent and Aspect of the Pack are my Passives with Off-Hand as Pack. 1400 points in Combat Advantage.
I actually have videos I have posted on the HR forums where you can see my rotation in action
Since I use an augment for all my tests, having CA in there would throw it off rel to the other tests I run. So I just slotted Crushing in the 2nd passive slot as a sort of 'default' for Trapper. So yeah, w/ CA this could be even better.
That said, testing vs. the lone dummy (single-target dps):
Unlike w/ live, the smoothness of the rotation isn't dependent on the # targets hit, and for this one I rarely had to use an at-will outside of DA every melee stance. Only messed up LS's buff a few times, and sometimes didn't have quite enough AP for Slasher's, though I could still throw Slasher's into the majority of the rotations at my gear level (5k recovery atm). Overall it looks like a quite-strong setup still, and esp impressive considering its not using PG/CoA at all.
I don't think Trappers have to worry too much about the SotF changes messing up rotations. Even then, the new R4 Aimed Shot is basically like a moderate-hitting spammable encounter now, so having to use it a bit more here and there isn't really all that bad. On the flipside, single-target dps is up on all fronts.
Ah dude I officially love you ha ha... Thank you for doing that
Post edited by wdj40 on
Main - Rydia (HR70) - Xbox One Player only Alts : Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
for the record PG is not overpowered. It is our strongest encounter yes but that doesn't make it over powered. Other classes all have big damage encounters. In our guild the power classes GWF can hit for 800 to 1mil for 1 buffed up encounter Cw can hit up to 1.4 mil and TRs can drop buffed encounters at around 1mil. The best I have seen on a HR is 570k on cordon and 670k Sezmic don't fall prey to the nerf squad coming in and keep the OMG this over powered out of the thread. We need to focus on bugs only from here out. HR is in a better place and closer to balance across all trees. Combat piercing is still no where close to High damage of CWF GF or TRs. and its not active for as long as others. So may want to adjust the damage up a little but lets wait till all the changes are live for final adjustments
I`m sorry but I disagree, I don't often say anything we have is over powered but PG just is. I can go through CN with a group of any 5 randoms... I can spam Constricting Arrow > Fox's Cunning > Plant Growth
I could add other attacks into the mix but you can quite literally spam that through the whole dungeon. PG causes a huge amount of damage compared to anything else we can equip. PG is one of the culprits of why certain people think Trapper is over powered. It is not the cool downs that were over powered, it really was pretty much PG and a couple of broken mechanics.
Just have a quick look at my clip about DPS mode on my Hunter Ranger Trapper Preservation thread. That short 5min clip of the end, the leaderboard pops up and I hit 222mil in Epic Grey Wolf. Just spamming those 3 powers over and over, not even bothering to get Stacks of AotS up or worrying about Critting Careful Attack.
On live with my trapper, the content is pretty trivial when I can rush each pack and apply a longstrider buffed PG for 50k+ per tick which hits way harder than my exe's whirlwind of blades from stealth. That's a daily, it can't be spammed for each and every pack.
PG causes a huge amount of damage compared to anything else we can equip. Not vs what other classes can equip.
read my comment Pg is strong but at bottom of the list of strong encounters vs other classes strong encounters/ It does not need to be stronger due to we can use it more often. Even after balance we Still will not top GWF or CW in pain giver when all 3 are 4k il vs my BIS trapper/ What it all boils down to who does not error wins. I Have to get my encounters off ist or they dps everything before me. and with 5 max aoe you will see Damage on PG decrease so it does not need nerf. Especially when bonding will be adjusted in near future . please on times where we are being studied don't mention nerf word or Over powered.
On live with my trapper, the content is pretty trivial when I can rush each pack and apply a longstrider buffed PG for 50k+ per tick which hits way harder than my exe's whirlwind of blades from stealth. That's a daily, it can't be spammed for each and every pack.
True, but not a fair comparison. Whirlwhind also comes with a hard stun, and doubles your power - letting you follow it up with most likely a very heavy hitting smoke bomb (and if MI Exe, probably from stealth due to using your daily resulting in a double-powered auto-crit auto-CA smoke bomb).
I'm in the "please don't nerf PG" camp. PG and CoA are the ONLY heavy hitting power we have, and aren't horribly OP for PvE. Come this patch, Archers will be popping out 80+k Aimed Shots every couple of seconds, which are easily 100+k with a few buffs. And if they slot the artifact power for it, they'll be running at crazy speeds all the while doing it.
If we're ok with *that*, then certainly a buffed PG + piercing blades isn't too bad either.
If it'll ruin PvP, then just halve the damage rather than nerfing the power as a whole.
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patcherrkmMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 127Arc User
On live with my trapper, the content is pretty trivial when I can rush each pack and apply a longstrider buffed PG for 50k+ per tick which hits way harder than my exe's whirlwind of blades from stealth. That's a daily, it can't be spammed for each and every pack.
True, but not a fair comparison. Whirlwhind also comes with a hard stun, and doubles your power - letting you follow it up with most likely a very heavy hitting smoke bomb (and if MI Exe, probably from stealth due to using your daily resulting in a double-powered auto-crit auto-CA smoke bomb).
I'm in the "please don't nerf PG" camp. PG and CoA are the ONLY heavy hitting power we have, and aren't horribly OP for PvE. Come this patch, Archers will be popping out 80+k Aimed Shots every couple of seconds, which are easily 100+k with a few buffs. And if they slot the artifact power for it, they'll be running at crazy speeds all the while doing it.
If we're ok with *that*, then certainly a buffed PG + piercing blades isn't too bad either.
If it'll ruin PvP, then just halve the damage rather than nerfing the power as a whole.
A GF can one rotate someone. A TR can do it. But low and behold, if under the right conditions an HR managed to one rotate someone then all hell has frozen over.
Even on PBE the GF can still one rotate BiS players. They don't even need to get lucky and crit to do it. If numbers need to get tweaked then that's fine. But just being able to one rotate someone under the right condition is apparently not a problem in this game. It's been part of the game for a while. And in real high end PvP, the one shot has been the only reliable way to kill anyone for quite a while.
I for one don't want to see piercing damage go away again. Maybe tone down the %. But then again the only real burst is on plant growth. Everything else is fairly low damage. 50% of low damage is still pretty low. So the only real burst is plant growth which is pretty clunky in PvP. And only if you crit. And only if you have dread enchant. And... it's a very specific build to get the damage numbers sky high.
Irregardless, I still think you will see archery HR's. I still think people will go trapper for more rotations. And yes, I think people may finally play combat HR's because they have the potential to one-rotate someone. If you think they will one-rotate everyone then youre delusional because the other classes are slippery as hell and they have teeth of their own. They have control. dodges. etc.
Honestly, this just brings HR's back into tier 1 threats, same as GF, and TR in PvP.
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patcherrkmMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 127Arc User
Gwf will still outrun you and probably kill you between cooldowns
Sw same
OP will still be immortal
Tr will exe Itc
Etc etc
So maby (still ned to see it after things go live) Hr also have 1or 2 valid builds.
Or is your suggestion we gimp Hr so they still can not compete while we wait another year or so for some adjustment to the other classes ?
Just saying....
bump. truth. We will not be immortal, but a combat HR would simply have big teeth like everyone else. im pretty sure that dude only plays to bug test. im happy he does, but not sure if he has interest in HR's being on the level with TR's or GFs.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
So how deal with it?
PB is half as effective in pvp? Make PB only apply to first hit of PG?
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Aspect of the Serpent and Aspect of the Pack are my Passives with Off-Hand as Pack. 1400 points in Combat Advantage.
I actually have videos I have posted on the HR forums where you can see my rotation in action
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Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
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Also @ralexinor and others going on about this perma-daze HR in PvP. I can tell these guys have not done any proper PvP for a while and deffo not on a console.
I cannot remember the last person I actually stunned in any way, everyone is immune to dazes etc... so much so that Crushing Roots became just useless to equip. Everyone has a Trans Elven in PvP and other buffs to CC resist.
This permadaze you speak of is extremely old.
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Piercing Blade need be halved in PVP, this is enough as it´s now again doing real piercing damage.
Since of Battle Crazed rework (which is good) I suggest to change Fluid Hunter (as this one has become useless) have it provide 5/7.5/10/12.5/15% Movement which is what Combat tree is missing.
The PG initial hit is, what, lets say around 8k, and each 3x dot around the same 8k those x 1.5 and we are somewhere near 50k before DR, so somethings fishy.
PB uses non-mitigated damage as the base, so, if ya hit around 2000 Split Strike before mitigation
the PB does half of that as damage
thats 2000+1000 on the initial hit to proc BH then the 2 hits with 1.65 times more damage, 3300 each,
of those 1650 for PB each, we're at
2000+1000(Splits PB dmg)+6600(BH dmg)+3300(BH PB dmg)
=4300 piercing dmg + Splits and BHs 8600 dmg before DR
and you got 2 secs to pop that Split Strike. So a fair chunk of damage still per flurry even after DR. And good burst capabilities when in melee.
But if the Split Strike hits with 40k per flurry, then also some fishiness there.
At least thats how i would perceive the dmg should work.
Unless, it calculates from crits. Then the damage will go thru the roof regardless.
First of all, yes, Elven Battle is a big culprit in negating the effects of permadaze, but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's the existence and possibility of permadaze that's the issue here, not the fact that it can be negated by Elven Battle (which is an issue in itself, as it destroys the viability of several builds and overall supersedes several game mechanics). Not everyone uses Elven Battle, nor does everyone have access to it. You could argue that "that's their fault for not using or having one, I'm entitled to do whatever I want if I pay for it!", but at the end of the day, permadaze does exist and no one likes to fight against it. While I am primarily a high-end premade player when it comes to PvP, and rarely participate in pug matches on my HR, I can still see the perspective of PvP from the view of a non-premade player. The gear gap in PvP has been becoming ever so wide in the last few modules, given all the extra items/gear/boons/etc. they've added, as well as certain classes being far more powerful than others (although this latter point has always been the case to a certain extent). It's not easy for a more casual player to have access to a TEB, and without one, it's very difficult and frustrating to fight against a permadaze spec, even taking class into consideration. You need to understand this point, too, not just from your own view.
CC resist stat has nothing to do with why "everyone is immune to dazes", as you put it, since you separated that from Elven Battle. CC resist is a divisive stat instead of being multiplicative and hence doesn't have much effect against CC duration, except in enormous amounts such as Elven Battle. At Perfect+ levels, Elven Battle actually gives 200% to your control resist stat, which ends up being an 80% duration decrease. You have maybe 10% control resist here and there, but that stat is largely ineffective. I don't remember the exact formula for it right now, but I can look it up for you if you're interested.
Permadaze still does exist, but it's far less obvious or prominent than it used to be. However, geared players are not the only ones that exist in the game, and being forced to slot a TEB to fight a permadaze hr is a bit silly, especially since it removes some diversity in both builds and gear choices in this case. Additionally, having interrupts all the time is still annoying to fight against, regardless of being actually CC'd or not.
Pathfinder action duration if reduced by 80% if im wearing an elven battle.
Ambush is perfect. Please take a look at how we can make bear trap a viable encounter. Ambush really deserves to be used now...
Strange interaction with swiftness of the fox effectively fixed.
new combat damage is really fitting a melee striker.
Please dont kill it for the love of god
Piercing damage calculates from base damage, which includes critical damage and certain damage buffs, such as Lucky Blades, so the damage I'm saying is not unreasonable, I even posted logs of a 100k Plant Growth, which was actually far weaker than it should have been because I didn't have some damage feats at the time (testing etc.). Split Strike doesn't hit 40k per flurry, but the damage including flurry + split strike + piercing blades is 40k on a player (more on a dummy).
That was on the new preview notes, its just that, does PB calculate after or before any buffs, world of difference. No mention of base damage just unmitigated. So in theory you could hit PG with PB and all the mustered buffs u can get.
Scenario where a PG is buffed out like this and crits in with PB, the damage is insane at that point, same with buffed critical at-will+flurry+PB.
They need to tone PB down, this is way too much burst.
PS. Cant remeber the post but Amenar was the one pointing out the PG is basicly a Spell, allthough a melee encounter, but they changed the initial hit of it to be a pure melee hit, so u could proc Blade Storm with it. The post is somewhere in this thread. Holy HAMSTER!!!! was writing when ya posted, jeebus look at that PB.
Yes I may be causing Interrupts on them but what ever rotation I use people just do not become perma-stunned.
The only people I can stun a lot are people who do have different Enchants Equipped, not many of those around though.
Alts :
Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
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It is almost like CoA/PG is a mod 11 power and all our other Encounter/Daily/At-Will Powers are Mod 6-8, damage wise.
Alts :
Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
Member of Q-Snipe
Ambush is perfect. Please take a look at how we can make bear trap a viable encounter. Ambush really deserves to be used now...
Strange interaction with swiftness of the fox effectively fixed.
Maybe time to bring it up again
Ambush is awesome now, please please change bear trap
like any glass this game is an rpg play as you want to play and have fun
like any other class and like all classes; all classes can tank/heal/dps/control/buff. you got to spec for what you want and just enjoy the playstyle you made for yourself and having fun is half the game. the other half is grinding =P.
thanks all for the good comments as to how to get the tree specs more on par with each other. once combat is on par with the rest of the hr tree's. we can hopefully have enough time to get the hr as a whole on par with the other classes
http://nwcalc.com/index.html#/hr?b=1oa5:k6rwk5:8dep:5tb7d,1li3i0k:1000000:1000000:15uuzzv&h=0&p=pfr&o=0
Since I use an augment for all my tests, having CA in there would throw it off rel to the other tests I run. So I just slotted Crushing in the 2nd passive slot as a sort of 'default' for Trapper. So yeah, w/ CA this could be even better.
That said, testing vs. the lone dummy (single-target dps):
Unlike w/ live, the smoothness of the rotation isn't dependent on the # targets hit, and for this one I rarely had to use an at-will outside of DA every melee stance. Only messed up LS's buff a few times, and sometimes didn't have quite enough AP for Slasher's, though I could still throw Slasher's into the majority of the rotations at my gear level (5k recovery atm).
Overall it looks like a quite-strong setup still, and esp impressive considering its not using PG/CoA at all.
I don't think Trappers have to worry too much about the SotF changes messing up rotations. Even then, the new R4 Aimed Shot is basically like a moderate-hitting spammable encounter now, so having to use it a bit more here and there isn't really all that bad. On the flipside, single-target dps is up on all fronts.
<CO docs> .: Petco :. // Base DPS Sheet (needs revision) // PSA on Power Activation Delay
- Themed Tanks // Misc Build Dump // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (stat data)
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
BUG: Transcendent Terror Enchantment doesn't reduce Power as it described. Moreover it doesn't root targets.
Edit: I can see all the Power, Recovery, Deflect builds without stacking any armor pen on their way now...
Maby @relaxinor but as combat;
Gf still going to 1rotate you
Gwf will still outrun you and probably kill you between cooldowns
Sw same
OP will still be immortal
Tr will exe Itc
Etc etc
So maby (still ned to see it after things go live) Hr also have 1or 2 valid builds.
Or is your suggestion we gimp Hr so they still can not compete while we wait another year or so for some adjustment to the other classes ?
Just saying....
Alts :
Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
Member of Q-Snipe
read my comment Pg is strong but at bottom of the list of strong encounters vs other classes strong encounters/ It does not need to be stronger due to we can use it more often. Even after balance we Still will not top GWF or CW in pain giver when all 3 are 4k il vs my BIS trapper/ What it all boils down to who does not error wins. I Have to get my encounters off ist or they dps everything before me. and with 5 max aoe you will see Damage on PG decrease so it does not need nerf. Especially when bonding will be adjusted in near future . please on times where we are being studied don't mention nerf word or Over powered.
I'm in the "please don't nerf PG" camp. PG and CoA are the ONLY heavy hitting power we have, and aren't horribly OP for PvE. Come this patch, Archers will be popping out 80+k Aimed Shots every couple of seconds, which are easily 100+k with a few buffs. And if they slot the artifact power for it, they'll be running at crazy speeds all the while doing it.
If we're ok with *that*, then certainly a buffed PG + piercing blades isn't too bad either.
If it'll ruin PvP, then just halve the damage rather than nerfing the power as a whole.
Even on PBE the GF can still one rotate BiS players. They don't even need to get lucky and crit to do it. If numbers need to get tweaked then that's fine. But just being able to one rotate someone under the right condition is apparently not a problem in this game. It's been part of the game for a while. And in real high end PvP, the one shot has been the only reliable way to kill anyone for quite a while.
I for one don't want to see piercing damage go away again. Maybe tone down the %. But then again the only real burst is on plant growth. Everything else is fairly low damage. 50% of low damage is still pretty low. So the only real burst is plant growth which is pretty clunky in PvP. And only if you crit. And only if you have dread enchant. And... it's a very specific build to get the damage numbers sky high.
Irregardless, I still think you will see archery HR's. I still think people will go trapper for more rotations. And yes, I think people may finally play combat HR's because they have the potential to one-rotate someone. If you think they will one-rotate everyone then youre delusional because the other classes are slippery as hell and they have teeth of their own. They have control. dodges. etc.
Honestly, this just brings HR's back into tier 1 threats, same as GF, and TR in PvP.
PB is half as effective in pvp? Make PB only apply to first hit of PG?