kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
No
I have met so many players who have no clue how to play their class, and never really needed to learn because the safety net of the bubble. All the times I've seen videos and whatnot of players running eLoL and running around in the molten gold with a bubble on instead of standing on the platform and dodging the falling rocks was annoying. It trivialized way too much content. It's much better how it is now. People are actually learning.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
So the Pally's should should respec down a different path?, they aren't great tanks due to no threat and Clerics heal better so no, going down a different path isn't a fix to this issue. Just like the HR trapper build, its the only viable build, you try the other 2 paths and you'll notice how bad they are. Likewise with the Pally's 2 other paths, they aren't as viable as the bubble build. You give us 3 paths to choose from but on most classes only one is workable the other 2 broken or need reworking. Honestly the bubble needs to be at least 10 secs, nerf it down to 6 secs for pvp or have it do something completely different in pvp. Those that moaned about Pally's can always run without them. 10 secs isn't overpowered and will defiantly make the bubble a little viable unlike now where its been completely ruined.
Guild : Straight Outta Neverwinter Main : Thorak (GWF) 4,1k Alts : Eractic (HR) 2,8k Ragner (CW) 2,7k Rico (DC) 2,6k Leo (TR) 2,4k Maus (GF) 2,7k Lucifer (Sw) 2,4k 9 other scrub lvl 70s(mainly AD farmers and banks)
What surprises me most is that SWs have been broken at least a long as pallys have been in the game, yet they havent been nerfed. I guess it pays to be the devs' pet class.
Nobody should be able to do 60% of a boss's hp in a single attack. KV and BiS or no, that simply shouldn't be possible.
The bubble was a cancer and I'm glad it is gone. The problem is that people want to compare the pally to the GF. That's just silly. The GF is a 'leader/controller' that tanks. The pally is a healer class. You gotta think of it as a different take on a cleric rather than a competing tank type toon.
The GF is a Defender/Controller and the OP is Defender/Leader. KV is always on, the pally's defense is a daily that is only on 6 seconds at a time now. It was too much before, I agree but if it is going to be a daily, it should be able to stay on just like KV so 10 seconds is fair IMO.
The pally was designed to be a mix between a Cleric and a Tank. So the people saying it was not a tank OR a cleric are just completely wrong. It was meant for people who wanted to help their teams in both ways and not just one way. They made the powers a bit less strong overall, so that you get a variety from both the DC and the GF classes. You get sufficient heals, and you get a decent tanking ability. No pally was ever really meant to buff/debuff/or even hold aggro that much.(hints BO which only has enemies attack you for what, 3secs or so).
So the bubble, while it was a bit OP, should be increased to 10secs. If not, then they need to make all the other powers stronger that that initially nerfed to make it half/half, cleric/tank.
And I really hate the people that are so angry and upset over the bubble from the start. You can say whatever you want, but I can guarantee that at least 70%(probably a lot higher) of the player base was thrilled to see a bubble pally join their LOOSING Epic Crag Crypts run, where you couldn't get passed 1st room w/o getting one-shot. That is of course not including the people who were BiS as soon as ECC came back. Everyone else had trouble with it as first W/O a bubble, and if you say you didn't...you are lying to yourself and to us. And some people who still need to get T2 gear may need a bubble to get through the T2 dungeons. Because not even the #1 tank in the game holds every single ads agro 100% of the time. So that brief sec where the GF loosing agro....the lower player will most likely get one-shot. Thus...the bubble is a great tool.
I have met so many players who have no clue how to play their class, and never really needed to learn because the safety net of the bubble. All the times I've seen videos and whatnot of players running eLoL and running around in the molten gold with a bubble on instead of standing on the platform and dodging the falling rocks was annoying. It trivialized way too much content. It's much better how it is now. People are actually learning.
Disagree they aren't learning anything other than how to respawn at the campfire right now, built a GF due to them nerfing my 3600 Pally (Gf is 3300 right now) learning how often a GF vapourises when a lot of the folk running with you to get gear are so low you almost insta die from fielding so much damage. Epict TOS has become frustrating again for so many players (and I have run it without Pallies on my 4K gwf).
Going to do a CC run before long to see if guys are still getting one shot at the very first door
The pally was designed to be a mix between a Cleric and a Tank. So the people saying it was not a tank OR a cleric are just completely wrong. It was meant for people who wanted to help their teams in both ways and not just one way. They made the powers a bit less strong overall, so that you get a variety from both the DC and the GF classes.
I in agree in principle, accept the GF already has a lot of buff ability that should really be a Paladin thing (GF should be tank and control). The real problem is that Cryptic stuffed up the D&D classes from the get-go.
In classic D&D there are the following classes: Fighter - No "great weapon" or "guardian", just fighter. Could go tanking, control or DPS (or some combo thereof). Cleric - Looks almost exactly like what the Paladin currently is, but has the cleric skills. Buff and heals, off-tank. Wears armor, wields blunt weapon. Paladin - Fighter who was only slightly less good at DPS and tanking, but had areas and slight healing. In other words a mix of Cleric and Paladin.
But they messed up that dynamic in designing the classes, straying into the WoW mold rather than sticking to D&D. Firstly by separating the fighters into two classes, and then by creating a cleric that is a 'priest' rather than the armoured support-fighter the cleric is in every other D&D based property. Now they're struggling to divide the skills of three D&D classes (fighter, cleric, paladin) among four classes (GWF, GF, OP, DC) and it obviously doesn't fit.
Or in other words - the GF was already pretty much a D&D pally, and the Priest-sytle Cleric has all the normal cleric abilities. They then tried to add a D&D style Cleric, called him a paladin, but had nothing for him to do.
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I have met so many players who have no clue how to play their class, and never really needed to learn because the safety net of the bubble. All the times I've seen videos and whatnot of players running eLoL and running around in the molten gold with a bubble on instead of standing on the platform and dodging the falling rocks was annoying. It trivialized way too much content. It's much better how it is now. People are actually learning.
Disagree they aren't learning anything other than how to respawn at the campfire right now, built a GF due to them nerfing my 3600 Pally (Gf is 3300 right now) learning how often a GF vapourises when a lot of the folk running with you to get gear are so low you almost insta die from fielding so much damage. Epict TOS has become frustrating again for so many players (and I have run it without Pallies on my 4K gwf).
Going to do a CC run before long to see if guys are still getting one shot at the very first door
I have seen this and the lesson to be learnt is avoid red. Too many players have not learnt that yet. Learn the enemy patterns, learn when to avoid etc
I have met so many players who have no clue how to play their class, and never really needed to learn because the safety net of the bubble. All the times I've seen videos and whatnot of players running eLoL and running around in the molten gold with a bubble on instead of standing on the platform and dodging the falling rocks was annoying. It trivialized way too much content. It's much better how it is now. People are actually learning.
Disagree they aren't learning anything other than how to respawn at the campfire right now, built a GF due to them nerfing my 3600 Pally (Gf is 3300 right now) learning how often a GF vapourises when a lot of the folk running with you to get gear are so low you almost insta die from fielding so much damage. Epict TOS has become frustrating again for so many players (and I have run it without Pallies on my 4K gwf).
Going to do a CC run before long to see if guys are still getting one shot at the very first door
I have seen this and the lesson to be learnt is avoid red. Too many players have not learnt that yet. Learn the enemy patterns, learn when to avoid etc
Yes yes I think they get avoiding red, however when Adds can still one shot you from range then it makes a mockery of avoid red.
Plus there are circumstances where overlapping red zones make avoiding them totally impossible if you want to get the task done, but hey only 128 game days played in here so what would I know lol
I retract some of my previous statements, protection paladin with my current setup is amazing for T1 or some T2 but doesn't offer survivability to the group on Orcus. I hold threat fine on trash mobs, but bosses I lose it if the fight takes too long, so Orcus will wtfpwn GWF's or other melee. DR offered via SoF isn't enough to offset his 1-shot power.
(I haven't tried ECC or EGWD since I see no purpose whatsoever to being in those zones these days, but that's a different topic.)
I prefer tanking to healing, so rather than switch I'm just going to park my OPP in favor of the GF until a change occurs.
I still don't think bubble should be changed to 10 seconds, I would rather see a complete revision than go back to spamming the win button.
I retract some of my previous statements, protection paladin with my current setup is amazing for T1 or some T2 but doesn't offer survivability to the group on Orcus. I hold threat fine on trash mobs, but bosses I lose it if the fight takes too long, so Orcus will wtfpwn GWF's or other melee. DR offered via SoF isn't enough to offset his 1-shot power.
(I haven't tried ECC or EGWD since I see no purpose whatsoever to being in those zones these days, but that's a different topic.)
I prefer tanking to healing, so rather than switch I'm just going to park my OPP in favor of the GF until a change occurs.
I still don't think bubble should be changed to 10 seconds, I would rather see a complete revision than go back to spamming the win button.
Drw, have you tried using Vow of Enmity in boss fights? The DPSers increase your aggro on the target as well as you doing 50% more damage (at 4 points).
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Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Truthfully, I did not. Keeping in mind I'm under geared for Orcus, my rotation is the only thing that was keeping me alive. I suspect Vow would change the outcome, good point and worth exploring. Having never needed Vow to hold aggro previously, I only have one point in - but that's all it'll take if I can work it into my rotation.
Less whiny (aka, neverwinter gamer) today, so feeling more optimistic! lol.
Personally I think it is fine as is. I myself still have a 6.5-7 second bubble refresh, so almost perma still. As for the aggro, if you stack the right companions and feats and whatnot, you should have no problem at all with aggro. I can hold just about anything without losing it. The only time I run i to problems is when there are 40+ mobs at once which rarely happens.
After upcoming nerfs only the elite will tank Orcus. Steel Defense by what I see is cut in half and ITF is flat 25% with no DC buffs. Spend money or die...lol
Ok I have seen a few people mention Orcus is hard for a Pally... You really need a well built HR at the end with you if you are struggling. I have been in a couple of Groups lately where I spawned in at Orcus and people were trying to kick the Pally. I persuaded them to just try and got through it pretty easily.
I can generally keep a GF or Pally alive through Orcus (even without a DC) with a combination of various things on my HR. Fox's + Oak Skin (heavily buffed) works a treat.
Main - Rydia (HR70) - Xbox One Player only Alts : Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
After upcoming nerfs only the elite will tank Orcus. Steel Defense by what I see is cut in half and ITF is flat 25% with no DC buffs. Spend money or die...lol
You guys can flame me on this... but NO, I ran with someone this past weekend and he popped a bubble so much it seemed he was not patched. So I agree with @kreatyve, learn the character build.
I agree that you need to know your character builds. This however is how I felt, I spent money to build out my bubble to perma and now it needs more to be perma again and at a much reduced protection level. So instead of putting more into my pally I built a GF and I was amazed at how much easier the rotation is.
So now while I enjoy my GF and can drag just about anyone thru anything I am a little troubled that on the two defender classes one is just a free encounter that is always on and the other uses a daily to provide the party defense which requires a big chunk of resources to keep it on, thus sacrificing other stats that would allow the proper threat generation for a tanky defender. I know exactly what I would have to spend to make it perma again, I just can't convince myself to do it.
They reduced the primary skill of a bubble pally to about 1/3 of it's previous state, maybe more if you consider the damage mitigation change. What if we did the same to the DPS class, like what if dropped GWF damage output to 1/3 of it's current state? It's an extreme change and I for one think it was too much.
null Your post and from other people on this thread prove you guys can't see the protection as more than a bubble spammer. What was extreme is not the nerf but how ridiculous the bubble was before it got fixed, it's the reason many players and especially tons of gwfs (not all though) have the reaction time of a potato and are unable to understand that red circles are meant to be avoided.
Knight's valor can be kept all the time because it offers extra protection that can't save team mates from being 1 shotted by several boss attacks.
Bubble makes team mates immortal so it shouldn't last longer than 6 seconds.
Seriously, do you guys depend so much on the bubble that want it to be up 100% of the time? Experiment next things and come up with new builds, such as some guys I've seen that aren't perma and do have excellent threat generation.
Depends on the GF. I can have KV on and tank any/everything thus keeping my team up without a problem, and without them getting a scratch. So KV should also be nerfed since they did nerf the bubble
Knight's valor doesnt make team mates immortal and divine protector does. Kv's is glitched to begin with (doesnt give extra damage resistance either at all or at rank 4) you yet want it nerfed. You bubble fans need to start experimenting new builds and stop making people oblivious about their classes by making them immortal.
Knight's valor doesnt make team mates immortal and divine protector does. Kv's is glitched to begin with (doesnt give extra damage resistance either at all or at rank 4) you yet want it nerfed. You bubble fans need to start experimenting new builds and stop making people oblivious about their classes by making them immortal.
Clearly you didn't read what I typed, at least not correctly. I have a near BiS GF, and I know that KV is OP (that is, if they considered the Bubble to be OP, which they did). Thus, KV is also OP.
null You're just salty your godmode and broken daily power got a well deserved fix, thinking kv is op doesn't make it op regardless of what level your toon is.
Most good pc and xb1 players that main a gf or run with one often enough are likely to agree with my following statement:
1. Kv helps decent players, is pointless for bis dps players that can avoid red circles and nearly useless for bad ones like those who can't dodge at all as they die anyway (I'm looking at you random gwfs... not all though).
2. Bubble can carry clueless players with poorly built toons through most (notice the word "most" there as epic wolf den and maybe ecc can be a good exception) content especially if the paladin has good threat generation (I have run with some of them myself so dont play the "but but pallies suck at holding aggro!!" card) and high ap gain.
I have a 2,9k gf and when i run cn with randoms:
- If their dodging skills and dps are decent, we may have a good chance to complete the dungeon.
- If their dodging skills and dps are bad or terribad knight's valor won't save them so trying that run will be pointless.
I voted Yes, from a lag perspective. However some nuisance to it:
1. Bubble should stay as is for PvP 2. Ideally PvE wise it would 8 seconds at the original resistance on a longer respawn so that it can be used as the emergency tool it was intended to be.
NO! Just be a tank and forget about nonsense bubble as your main daily. And for the love of God stop spamming relentless avenger... I drop out of 50℅ of pug queues because there's a Pally throwing everything around the room.
You're just salty your godmode and broken daily power got a well deserved fix, thinking kv is op doesn't make it op regardless of what level your toon is.
Most good pc and xb1 players that main a gf or run with one often enough are likely to agree with my following statement:
1. Kv helps decent players, is pointless for bis dps players that can avoid red circles and nearly useless for bad ones like those who can't dodge at all as they die anyway (I'm looking at you random gwfs... not all though).
2. Bubble can carry clueless players with poorly built toons through most (notice the word "most" there as epic wolf den and maybe ecc can be a good exception) content especially if the paladin has good threat generation (I have run with some of them myself so dont play the "but but pallies suck at holding aggro!!" card) and high ap gain.
I have a 2,9k gf and when i run cn with randoms:
- If their dodging skills and dps are decent, we may have a good chance to complete the dungeon.
- If their dodging skills and dps are bad or terribad knight's valor won't save them so trying that run will be pointless.
i really feel you are underrating KV to avoid a nerf. it sure is nice when i have a GF running perma-KV when i am on my HR. it's almost like having a bubble, without the visual effects.
i'm not advocating for a nerf of it either, but there is a bit of hypocrisy here. 3k+ players don't need true immunity. with KV, and all of the other goodies we have now that provide self healing, the end result is similar to immunity. paladins have 2 powers that protect the party from heavy AoE wipes, and they were both nerfed.
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Main : Thorak (GWF) 4,1k
Alts : Eractic (HR) 2,8k
Ragner (CW) 2,7k
Rico (DC) 2,6k
Leo (TR) 2,4k
Maus (GF) 2,7k
Lucifer (Sw) 2,4k
9 other scrub lvl 70s(mainly AD farmers and banks)
Nobody should be able to do 60% of a boss's hp in a single attack. KV and BiS or no, that simply shouldn't be possible.
OP - Sunshine: 16000 IL
Casual Dailies
So the bubble, while it was a bit OP, should be increased to 10secs. If not, then they need to make all the other powers stronger that that initially nerfed to make it half/half, cleric/tank.
And I really hate the people that are so angry and upset over the bubble from the start. You can say whatever you want, but I can guarantee that at least 70%(probably a lot higher) of the player base was thrilled to see a bubble pally join their LOOSING Epic Crag Crypts run, where you couldn't get passed 1st room w/o getting one-shot. That is of course not including the people who were BiS as soon as ECC came back. Everyone else had trouble with it as first W/O a bubble, and if you say you didn't...you are lying to yourself and to us. And some people who still need to get T2 gear may need a bubble to get through the T2 dungeons. Because not even the #1 tank in the game holds every single ads agro 100% of the time. So that brief sec where the GF loosing agro....the lower player will most likely get one-shot. Thus...the bubble is a great tool.
Epict TOS has become frustrating again for so many players (and I have run it without Pallies on my 4K gwf).
Going to do a CC run before long to see if guys are still getting one shot at the very first door
In classic D&D there are the following classes:
Fighter - No "great weapon" or "guardian", just fighter. Could go tanking, control or DPS (or some combo thereof).
Cleric - Looks almost exactly like what the Paladin currently is, but has the cleric skills. Buff and heals, off-tank. Wears armor, wields blunt weapon.
Paladin - Fighter who was only slightly less good at DPS and tanking, but had areas and slight healing. In other words a mix of Cleric and Paladin.
But they messed up that dynamic in designing the classes, straying into the WoW mold rather than sticking to D&D. Firstly by separating the fighters into two classes, and then by creating a cleric that is a 'priest' rather than the armoured support-fighter the cleric is in every other D&D based property. Now they're struggling to divide the skills of three D&D classes (fighter, cleric, paladin) among four classes (GWF, GF, OP, DC) and it obviously doesn't fit.
Or in other words - the GF was already pretty much a D&D pally, and the Priest-sytle Cleric has all the normal cleric abilities. They then tried to add a D&D style Cleric, called him a paladin, but had nothing for him to do.
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Plus there are circumstances where overlapping red zones make avoiding them totally impossible if you want to get the task done, but hey only 128 game days played in here so what would I know lol
(I haven't tried ECC or EGWD since I see no purpose whatsoever to being in those zones these days, but that's a different topic.)
I prefer tanking to healing, so rather than switch I'm just going to park my OPP in favor of the GF until a change occurs.
I still don't think bubble should be changed to 10 seconds, I would rather see a complete revision than go back to spamming the win button.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
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Less whiny (aka, neverwinter gamer) today, so feeling more optimistic! lol.
I can generally keep a GF or Pally alive through Orcus (even without a DC) with a combination of various things on my HR. Fox's + Oak Skin (heavily buffed) works a treat.
Alts :
Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
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So now while I enjoy my GF and can drag just about anyone thru anything I am a little troubled that on the two defender classes one is just a free encounter that is always on and the other uses a daily to provide the party defense which requires a big chunk of resources to keep it on, thus sacrificing other stats that would allow the proper threat generation for a tanky defender. I know exactly what I would have to spend to make it perma again, I just can't convince myself to do it.
They reduced the primary skill of a bubble pally to about 1/3 of it's previous state, maybe more if you consider the damage mitigation change. What if we did the same to the DPS class, like what if dropped GWF damage output to 1/3 of it's current state? It's an extreme change and I for one think it was too much.
OP - Sunshine: 16000 IL
Casual Dailies
Your post and from other people on this thread prove you guys can't see the protection as more than a bubble spammer. What was extreme is not the nerf but how ridiculous the bubble was before it got fixed, it's the reason many players and especially tons of gwfs (not all though) have the reaction time of a potato and are unable to understand that red circles are meant to be avoided.
Knight's valor can be kept all the time because it offers extra protection that can't save team mates from being 1 shotted by several boss attacks.
Bubble makes team mates immortal so it shouldn't last longer than 6 seconds.
Seriously, do you guys depend so much on the bubble that want it to be up 100% of the time? Experiment next things and come up with new builds, such as some guys I've seen that aren't perma and do have excellent threat generation.
You're just salty your godmode and broken daily power got a well deserved fix, thinking kv is op doesn't make it op regardless of what level your toon is.
Most good pc and xb1 players that main a gf or run with one often enough are likely to agree with my following statement:
1. Kv helps decent players, is pointless for bis dps players that can avoid red circles and nearly useless for bad ones like those who can't dodge at all as they die anyway (I'm looking at you random gwfs... not all though).
2. Bubble can carry clueless players with poorly built toons through most (notice the word "most" there as epic wolf den and maybe ecc can be a good exception) content especially if the paladin has good threat generation (I have run with some of them myself so dont play the "but but pallies suck at holding aggro!!" card) and high ap gain.
I have a 2,9k gf and when i run cn with randoms:
- If their dodging skills and dps are decent, we may have a good chance to complete the dungeon.
- If their dodging skills and dps are bad or terribad knight's valor won't save them so trying that run will be pointless.
1. Bubble should stay as is for PvP
2. Ideally PvE wise it would 8 seconds at the original resistance on a longer respawn so that it can be used as the emergency tool it was intended to be.
i'm not advocating for a nerf of it either, but there is a bit of hypocrisy here. 3k+ players don't need true immunity. with KV, and all of the other goodies we have now that provide self healing, the end result is similar to immunity. paladins have 2 powers that protect the party from heavy AoE wipes, and they were both nerfed.
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