Who thinks the op bubble should be 10seconds instead of 6

armadeonx

No

Bubble dependency - absolutely. They need to:

1. completely remove the bubble altogether
2. add a 100% forced threat daily to replace it - everything in aura range is forced to go for the pally
3. boost Shield of Faith a bit
4. Increase the group buff from Aura of Courage to get on a more even footing with GF's.

That's about all they need.

mahburg

Yes

armadeonx said:

Bubble dependency - absolutely. They need to:

1. completely remove the bubble altogether
2. add a 100% forced threat daily to replace it - everything in aura range is forced to go for the pally
3. boost Shield of Faith a bit
4. Increase the group buff from Aura of Courage to get on a more even footing with GF's.

That's about all they need.

Never happen requires thought and insight, sadly here they just do knee jerk reactions to whining and hit the nerf button. Its sad that they keep making character investment pointless, new characters are supposed to be on the way, who in their right mind will invest in them knowing if they prove to be any good they will just render them unplayable?

armadeonx

No

very true m8

zephyriah

mahburg said:

new characters are supposed to be on the way, who in their right mind will invest in them knowing if they prove to be any good they will just render them unplayable?

Just about anyone who has played this game for a long time. I know I certainly will. It's always fun to play the new overpowered class, at first. I will temporarily move my enchants and only upgrade artifacts/equipment with junk drops until I see how it plays out.

Every time they have introduced a new class it has been initially overpowered, then brought somewhat in line. Sometimes takes a few cycles, like with the OP. Xbox hasn't seen all this, but it happened with the HR, SW and OP on PC and it will likely happen when the next new class is added.

pr3stigex

Yes

I feel like they do this purposely to draw people to build out a new character, ie spend money.

satniteeduardo

Yes

The bubble is not the real issue. The issue is are there 2 viable paths for an OP? Of course for other classes that is not necessarily yes but it should be (in my opinion).

scarabman

The permabubble of the past trivialized all content and rendered every boss mechanic pointless. It wasn't creating a positive experience for players. We will be looking at OPs again but we want to look at the whole package, not just a single spell.

Speaking as an Oathbound Paladin who has finally recovered from permabubble withdrawal, I like the choices that the change has forced me to consider. I can opt to pop my daily to mitigate a bad situation for my team or I even feel like I can spend my AP on something other than keeping my bubble up.

As for my vote, I abstain

satniteeduardo

Yes

bbascomdev said:

The permabubble of the past trivialized all content and rendered every boss mechanic pointless. It wasn't creating a positive experience for players. We will be looking at OPs again but we want to look at the whole package, not just a single spell.

Speaking as an Oathbound Paladin who has finally recovered from permabubble withdrawal, I like the choices that the change has forced me to consider. I can opt to pop my daily to mitigate a bad situation for my team or I even feel like I can spend my AP on something other than keeping my bubble up.

As for my vote, I abstain

Thanks for commenting. Where you say you like the choices that the change has forced you to consider my opinion is there are not enough choices there. The Protection side does not have enough because threat generation is not that great no matter how you build. It is tough to get anything worthwhile out of the Protection path now.

nightranger7477

Yes

Yes threat generation is the main thing that currently needs some type of fix, oath strike seems to be the only thing we have to make the boss notice us. Binding oath aggro doesn't seem to work at all.

telprydain

Yes

bbascomdev said:

The permabubble of the past trivialized all content and rendered every boss mechanic pointless. It wasn't creating a positive experience for players. We will be looking at OPs again but we want to look at the whole package, not just a single spell.

Speaking as an Oathbound Paladin who has finally recovered from permabubble withdrawal, I like the choices that the change has forced me to consider. I can opt to pop my daily to mitigate a bad situation for my team or I even feel like I can spend my AP on something other than keeping my bubble up.

As for my vote, I abstain

As a Pally player, what do you feel a protection pally offers a group that isn't equaled or bettered by a GF?

telprydain

Yes

It's not about the bubble. It's about nerfing it without exploring changes to the rest of the class.
It's about having no role in a well rounded party, and about how no matter what you want to do (tank, support, heal, buff) there's another class that straight-up does it better.

mahburg

Yes

zephyriah said:

mahburg said:

new characters are supposed to be on the way, who in their right mind will invest in them knowing if they prove to be any good they will just render them unplayable?

Just about anyone who has played this game for a long time. I know I certainly will. It's always fun to play the new overpowered class, at first. I will temporarily move my enchants and only upgrade artifacts/equipment with junk drops until I see how it plays out.

Every time they have introduced a new class it has been initially overpowered, then brought somewhat in line. Sometimes takes a few cycles, like with the OP. Xbox hasn't seen all this, but it happened with the HR, SW and OP on PC and it will likely happen when the next new class is added. </blockquoture

Not sure many would agree, 127 days in game and at a stroke 3 of my characters have been hit, Gwf, Palladin and Haste Cleric. I know there will be many others like me who invested massive amounts of time and resources on such toons only to see them rendered pointless as built (the Gwf less so but still). Why would I or anyone else do this again? I doubt many will.
Almost feels like bait and switch, here these are cool look what they can do, six months later oops they are OP or not WAI so have a nerf (or three).

Pallies are pointless right now as others have indicated and with all due respect to the Dev (great to see one of you show up on here so KUDOS for that). That is of no help to the numerous Pallies being kicked from dungeons now.

armadeonx

No

bbascomdev said:

The permabubble of the past trivialized all content and rendered every boss mechanic pointless. It wasn't creating a positive experience for players. We will be looking at OPs again but we want to look at the whole package, not just a single spell.

Speaking as an Oathbound Paladin who has finally recovered from permabubble withdrawal, I like the choices that the change has forced me to consider. I can opt to pop my daily to mitigate a bad situation for my team or I even feel like I can spend my AP on something other than keeping my bubble up.

As for my vote, I abstain

Thanks for the feedback bbas and I agree with you. The Pally does however need to stand on an equal footing with the GF in terms of attractiveness for groups as I'm sure you understand.

The defensive capability for self survival is great but because it can't hold threat properly it cannot help lower geared players & because it's group buffs are inferior to that of the GF it isn't attractive to higher end groups either.

This leaves it in a no-mans land of being neither one thing or another. As I've suggested on a previous post I believe two dailies that do the same thing but to differing degrees is a little pointless. We should have one group defence daily (Shield of Faith) and one forced aggro/threat daily that compels all enemies within aura range to attack the pally. Having both dailies last for 12 seconds should be sufficient.

Increasing the group buff for Aura of Courage to match similar buffs from the GF should wrap it up nicely and provide a balanced class that would be an asset to a party.

unitedweevil679

Everything I'm reading in favor of keeping bubble as is seems to add the desire of making an OP more like a GF. The GF will always be a better GF then an OP, that's why it's a GF. The bubble nerf hit on too many sides, it should have been a shortened duration, or a lessened amount of damage mitigation. Instead we got both. We should fix one or the other.

armadeonx

No

That's because the GF can be built as either a proper aggro tank or party buffer, that's what a tank class is for.

Providing total damage immunity was a terrible idea in the first place and is a bad premise to build a class on. We have 5 different DPS classes - they all do the same job but with different mechanics & you choose the one that suits your play style - I have no issue with there being 2 tank classes but as where a DPS class deals DPS, a tank class has to deal threat and/or buffs.

The pally does have buffs, they just aren't on the same level as the GF, but swapping that for total damage immunity makes the class popular but turns dungeon runs into nothing but a timer exercise.

They need to be good without doing that. The GF is better now but it's wrong to say they will always be better. At one point the CW was the best DPS class, in mod 5 the GWF was the worst. What we need is a situation where both classes are equally popular.

kalina311

bbascomdev said:

The permabubble of the past trivialized all content and rendered every boss mechanic pointless. It wasn't creating a positive experience for players. We will be looking at OPs again but we want to look at the whole package, not just a single spell.

Speaking as an Oathbound Paladin who has finally recovered from permabubble withdrawal, I like the choices that the change has forced me to consider. I can opt to pop my daily to mitigate a bad situation for my team or I even feel like I can spend my AP on something other than keeping my bubble up.

As for my vote, I abstain

@bbascomdev @badbotlimit @terramak

The/your ring of ambush/invisibility also "trivializes" content also making it pointless .. any plans on making it in line with other cool downs/ inactive while in combat etc ? when you attack from stealth with the ring it should make you visible and " in combat"

What dungeon master would let his party go thru the whole dungeon invisible and "trivialize" all the planing programing and hard work ?
this is also not creating a "positive" experience

why cant the monster hear you or smell you lol ?

P.S at least the ring of natural order was removed as a broken coding nightmare with class abilities ..

gamertothebone

Yes

I voted raise the time because other people I trust have that opinion.

Right now it seems the GF (in terms of pre 3k GS) is better tanking then the OP but that is based on a small sample size at this point. The examples I have seen have better geared OP and only partially geared GF at this time.

Maybe people will figure things out and it will settle down but you would think anything to be figured out would have already been done in the PC which has been at this for some time.

satniteeduardo

Yes

bbascomdev said:

The permabubble of the past trivialized all content and rendered every boss mechanic pointless. It wasn't creating a positive experience for players. We will be looking at OPs again but we want to look at the whole package, not just a single spell.

Speaking as an Oathbound Paladin who has finally recovered from permabubble withdrawal, I like the choices that the change has forced me to consider. I can opt to pop my daily to mitigate a bad situation for my team or I even feel like I can spend my AP on something other than keeping my bubble up.

As for my vote, I abstain

The more I think about the changes made the more I think the change should have been the stuff that has happened plus other changes maybe along the lines of what armadeonx says.

So rather than just taking stuff away add something back to replace it.

boromir

No

The bubble was a cancer and I'm glad it is gone. The problem is that people want to compare the pally to the GF. That's just silly. The GF is a 'leader/controller' that tanks. The pally is a healer class. You gotta think of it as a different take on a cleric rather than a competing tank type toon.

Thats why you can't generate threat. That.....and it's probably broken. But I wanna see a pally built for damage with 60% armor pen prove this true or false. There is a companion that adds a threat generation buff btw.

The only thing pallys won't do is give up on the bubble. Stop that!!! Come up with new builds. You were given a free respec, use it and utilize some ingenuity. Come up with something no one else has. Think about how you can contribute so that you don't "compete" with the GF or cleric.

Before I hit 70 on my pally the bubble was already a thing. So I just stripped my pally and never touched that toon again. Why? Because I will not build a one trick pony for the benefit of others and not myself.

drw

No

No.

Still running Oath of Protection on my previously perm-bubble (at ~2580) paladin. At -50 ArmP I hold aggro fairly well (3700+ GWF/SW or other very high dps can still pull away from me, particularly if they unload before I engage.) I run perma-SoF now instead, and with my current setup I heal the entire group (within 30') for 50-200k (depending on crit, at 30% chance with my low i-level) every 12 seconds with a HoT aspect (unintentionally) which lasts about 6 seconds (for another ~50-200k total). I've run PuG CN with only myself as tank/healer (although with a high turn-over rate until we find quality players who won't stand in the red.)

Long story short - the paladin is "pseudo-viable" as is. I stumbled across my set up, and it is "successful" only due to specific use of insignias, boons, sub-optimal (otherwise) arti-powers, flail snail + burning artifact set, previously un-used (by me) feats, "broken" powers, and 80+ power points. If I did not have all these in place prior to the change I could not successfully aid my group as a tank (aka, new paladins are screwed or go devotion, imo.)

All that said - my paladin is nearly invincible, heals well enough to cover that job while tanking, does passing off-dps, and is still second-tier to any fresh T2 GF (which I know for a fact, because my 2500 GF does everything a tank should do, better than my paladin.) All things considered, in CN if all other group members are static and only I flop between my GF and my OP ... my personal survivability is much higher on the OP, but the group finishes the zone significantly faster and safer on the GF.

I still don't want bubble time increased. Bubble should be removed, or reworked completely - not increased. Make paladins able to do their job more effectively, NOT just a GF-clone, or an invincibility button for the group.

zammy2

No

The bubble should be removed entirely. It makes people lazy and removes any need for thought or skill. I will not run anything with a bubble. I'd rather wipe 1000 times. It ruined an already broken PVP system. Death to the bubble.

armadeonx

No

boromir#3940 said:

The bubble was a cancer and I'm glad it is gone. The problem is that people want to compare the pally to the GF. That's just silly. The GF is a 'leader/controller' that tanks. The pally is a healer class. You gotta think of it as a different take on a cleric rather than a competing tank type toon.

You are completely wrong there. Clerics have feats that reduce threat whilst the Oath of Protection Paladin receives a x5 threat multiplier and has several At Wills, Encounters and Auras specifically designed to increase threat whilst increasing the Pallys Health and Defence.

That is a tank. It's other skills are based around Control & Damage Reflection.

In other words, the Protection Paladin is also a Leader/controller class.

The Devotion path is for healing and that's why it doesn't have the threat multipliers.

boromir

No

I concede the point. One path garners the pally control, threat and protection. Thusly making it a full blown tank. But you've gotta admit that it feels like a hybrid. Somewhere in between a cleric and a GF.

armadeonx

No

It's positioning within teams is weird atm but I'm hoping when they finally fix threat output it'll start to shine for all the right reasons. If it can act as a true threat magnet then people will appreciate it again.

kreatyve

No

I have met so many players who have no clue how to play their class, and never really needed to learn because the safety net of the bubble. All the times I've seen videos and whatnot of players running eLoL and running around in the molten gold with a bubble on instead of standing on the platform and dodging the falling rocks was annoying. It trivialized way too much content. It's much better how it is now. People are actually learning.

eractic

Yes

So the Pally's should should respec down a different path?, they aren't great tanks due to no threat and Clerics heal better so no, going down a different path isn't a fix to this issue. Just like the HR trapper build, its the only viable build, you try the other 2 paths and you'll notice how bad they are. Likewise with the Pally's 2 other paths, they aren't as viable as the bubble build. You give us 3 paths to choose from but on most classes only one is workable the other 2 broken or need reworking. Honestly the bubble needs to be at least 10 secs, nerf it down to 6 secs for pvp or have it do something completely different in pvp. Those that moaned about Pally's can always run without them. 10 secs isn't overpowered and will defiantly make the bubble a little viable unlike now where its been completely ruined.

talifeexpectancy

Yes

What surprises me most is that SWs have been broken at least a long as pallys have been in the game, yet they havent been nerfed. I guess it pays to be the devs' pet class.

Nobody should be able to do 60% of a boss's hp in a single attack. KV and BiS or no, that simply shouldn't be possible.

talifeexpectancy

Yes

Oh and btw, I actually DONT think bubble needs to be 10 seconds. I voted yes because if SWs arent going to be nerfed, no other class should be.

sundance777

Yes

boromir#3940 said:

The bubble was a cancer and I'm glad it is gone. The problem is that people want to compare the pally to the GF. That's just silly. The GF is a 'leader/controller' that tanks. The pally is a healer class. You gotta think of it as a different take on a cleric rather than a competing tank type toon.

The GF is a Defender/Controller and the OP is Defender/Leader. KV is always on, the pally's defense is a daily that is only on 6 seconds at a time now. It was too much before, I agree but if it is going to be a daily, it should be able to stay on just like KV so 10 seconds is fair IMO.

asjohnson

Yes

The pally was designed to be a mix between a Cleric and a Tank. So the people saying it was not a tank OR a cleric are just completely wrong. It was meant for people who wanted to help their teams in both ways and not just one way. They made the powers a bit less strong overall, so that you get a variety from both the DC and the GF classes. You get sufficient heals, and you get a decent tanking ability. No pally was ever really meant to buff/debuff/or even hold aggro that much.(hints BO which only has enemies attack you for what, 3secs or so).

So the bubble, while it was a bit OP, should be increased to 10secs. If not, then they need to make all the other powers stronger that that initially nerfed to make it half/half, cleric/tank.

And I really hate the people that are so angry and upset over the bubble from the start. You can say whatever you want, but I can guarantee that at least 70%(probably a lot higher) of the player base was thrilled to see a bubble pally join their LOOSING Epic Crag Crypts run, where you couldn't get passed 1st room w/o getting one-shot. That is of course not including the people who were BiS as soon as ECC came back. Everyone else had trouble with it as first W/O a bubble, and if you say you didn't...you are lying to yourself and to us. And some people who still need to get T2 gear may need a bubble to get through the T2 dungeons. Because not even the #1 tank in the game holds every single ads agro 100% of the time. So that brief sec where the GF loosing agro....the lower player will most likely get one-shot. Thus...the bubble is a great tool.