I have met so many players who have no clue how to play their class, and never really needed to learn because the safety net of the bubble. All the times I've seen videos and whatnot of players running eLoL and running around in the molten gold with a bubble on instead of standing on the platform and dodging the falling rocks was annoying. It trivialized way too much content. It's much better how it is now. People are actually learning.
Disagree they aren't learning anything other than how to respawn at the campfire right now, built a GF due to them nerfing my 3600 Pally (Gf is 3300 right now) learning how often a GF vapourises when a lot of the folk running with you to get gear are so low you almost insta die from fielding so much damage. Epict TOS has become frustrating again for so many players (and I have run it without Pallies on my 4K gwf).
Going to do a CC run before long to see if guys are still getting one shot at the very first door
The pally was designed to be a mix between a Cleric and a Tank. So the people saying it was not a tank OR a cleric are just completely wrong. It was meant for people who wanted to help their teams in both ways and not just one way. They made the powers a bit less strong overall, so that you get a variety from both the DC and the GF classes.
I in agree in principle, accept the GF already has a lot of buff ability that should really be a Paladin thing (GF should be tank and control). The real problem is that Cryptic stuffed up the D&D classes from the get-go.
In classic D&D there are the following classes: Fighter - No "great weapon" or "guardian", just fighter. Could go tanking, control or DPS (or some combo thereof). Cleric - Looks almost exactly like what the Paladin currently is, but has the cleric skills. Buff and heals, off-tank. Wears armor, wields blunt weapon. Paladin - Fighter who was only slightly less good at DPS and tanking, but had areas and slight healing. In other words a mix of Cleric and Paladin.
But they messed up that dynamic in designing the classes, straying into the WoW mold rather than sticking to D&D. Firstly by separating the fighters into two classes, and then by creating a cleric that is a 'priest' rather than the armoured support-fighter the cleric is in every other D&D based property. Now they're struggling to divide the skills of three D&D classes (fighter, cleric, paladin) among four classes (GWF, GF, OP, DC) and it obviously doesn't fit.
Or in other words - the GF was already pretty much a D&D pally, and the Priest-sytle Cleric has all the normal cleric abilities. They then tried to add a D&D style Cleric, called him a paladin, but had nothing for him to do.
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I have met so many players who have no clue how to play their class, and never really needed to learn because the safety net of the bubble. All the times I've seen videos and whatnot of players running eLoL and running around in the molten gold with a bubble on instead of standing on the platform and dodging the falling rocks was annoying. It trivialized way too much content. It's much better how it is now. People are actually learning.
Disagree they aren't learning anything other than how to respawn at the campfire right now, built a GF due to them nerfing my 3600 Pally (Gf is 3300 right now) learning how often a GF vapourises when a lot of the folk running with you to get gear are so low you almost insta die from fielding so much damage. Epict TOS has become frustrating again for so many players (and I have run it without Pallies on my 4K gwf).
Going to do a CC run before long to see if guys are still getting one shot at the very first door
I have seen this and the lesson to be learnt is avoid red. Too many players have not learnt that yet. Learn the enemy patterns, learn when to avoid etc
I have met so many players who have no clue how to play their class, and never really needed to learn because the safety net of the bubble. All the times I've seen videos and whatnot of players running eLoL and running around in the molten gold with a bubble on instead of standing on the platform and dodging the falling rocks was annoying. It trivialized way too much content. It's much better how it is now. People are actually learning.
Disagree they aren't learning anything other than how to respawn at the campfire right now, built a GF due to them nerfing my 3600 Pally (Gf is 3300 right now) learning how often a GF vapourises when a lot of the folk running with you to get gear are so low you almost insta die from fielding so much damage. Epict TOS has become frustrating again for so many players (and I have run it without Pallies on my 4K gwf).
Going to do a CC run before long to see if guys are still getting one shot at the very first door
I have seen this and the lesson to be learnt is avoid red. Too many players have not learnt that yet. Learn the enemy patterns, learn when to avoid etc
Yes yes I think they get avoiding red, however when Adds can still one shot you from range then it makes a mockery of avoid red.
Plus there are circumstances where overlapping red zones make avoiding them totally impossible if you want to get the task done, but hey only 128 game days played in here so what would I know lol
I retract some of my previous statements, protection paladin with my current setup is amazing for T1 or some T2 but doesn't offer survivability to the group on Orcus. I hold threat fine on trash mobs, but bosses I lose it if the fight takes too long, so Orcus will wtfpwn GWF's or other melee. DR offered via SoF isn't enough to offset his 1-shot power.
(I haven't tried ECC or EGWD since I see no purpose whatsoever to being in those zones these days, but that's a different topic.)
I prefer tanking to healing, so rather than switch I'm just going to park my OPP in favor of the GF until a change occurs.
I still don't think bubble should be changed to 10 seconds, I would rather see a complete revision than go back to spamming the win button.
I retract some of my previous statements, protection paladin with my current setup is amazing for T1 or some T2 but doesn't offer survivability to the group on Orcus. I hold threat fine on trash mobs, but bosses I lose it if the fight takes too long, so Orcus will wtfpwn GWF's or other melee. DR offered via SoF isn't enough to offset his 1-shot power.
(I haven't tried ECC or EGWD since I see no purpose whatsoever to being in those zones these days, but that's a different topic.)
I prefer tanking to healing, so rather than switch I'm just going to park my OPP in favor of the GF until a change occurs.
I still don't think bubble should be changed to 10 seconds, I would rather see a complete revision than go back to spamming the win button.
Drw, have you tried using Vow of Enmity in boss fights? The DPSers increase your aggro on the target as well as you doing 50% more damage (at 4 points).
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Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Truthfully, I did not. Keeping in mind I'm under geared for Orcus, my rotation is the only thing that was keeping me alive. I suspect Vow would change the outcome, good point and worth exploring. Having never needed Vow to hold aggro previously, I only have one point in - but that's all it'll take if I can work it into my rotation.
Less whiny (aka, neverwinter gamer) today, so feeling more optimistic! lol.
Personally I think it is fine as is. I myself still have a 6.5-7 second bubble refresh, so almost perma still. As for the aggro, if you stack the right companions and feats and whatnot, you should have no problem at all with aggro. I can hold just about anything without losing it. The only time I run i to problems is when there are 40+ mobs at once which rarely happens.
After upcoming nerfs only the elite will tank Orcus. Steel Defense by what I see is cut in half and ITF is flat 25% with no DC buffs. Spend money or die...lol
Ok I have seen a few people mention Orcus is hard for a Pally... You really need a well built HR at the end with you if you are struggling. I have been in a couple of Groups lately where I spawned in at Orcus and people were trying to kick the Pally. I persuaded them to just try and got through it pretty easily.
I can generally keep a GF or Pally alive through Orcus (even without a DC) with a combination of various things on my HR. Fox's + Oak Skin (heavily buffed) works a treat.
Main - Rydia (HR70) - Xbox One Player only Alts : Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
After upcoming nerfs only the elite will tank Orcus. Steel Defense by what I see is cut in half and ITF is flat 25% with no DC buffs. Spend money or die...lol
You guys can flame me on this... but NO, I ran with someone this past weekend and he popped a bubble so much it seemed he was not patched. So I agree with @kreatyve, learn the character build.
I agree that you need to know your character builds. This however is how I felt, I spent money to build out my bubble to perma and now it needs more to be perma again and at a much reduced protection level. So instead of putting more into my pally I built a GF and I was amazed at how much easier the rotation is.
So now while I enjoy my GF and can drag just about anyone thru anything I am a little troubled that on the two defender classes one is just a free encounter that is always on and the other uses a daily to provide the party defense which requires a big chunk of resources to keep it on, thus sacrificing other stats that would allow the proper threat generation for a tanky defender. I know exactly what I would have to spend to make it perma again, I just can't convince myself to do it.
They reduced the primary skill of a bubble pally to about 1/3 of it's previous state, maybe more if you consider the damage mitigation change. What if we did the same to the DPS class, like what if dropped GWF damage output to 1/3 of it's current state? It's an extreme change and I for one think it was too much.
null Your post and from other people on this thread prove you guys can't see the protection as more than a bubble spammer. What was extreme is not the nerf but how ridiculous the bubble was before it got fixed, it's the reason many players and especially tons of gwfs (not all though) have the reaction time of a potato and are unable to understand that red circles are meant to be avoided.
Knight's valor can be kept all the time because it offers extra protection that can't save team mates from being 1 shotted by several boss attacks.
Bubble makes team mates immortal so it shouldn't last longer than 6 seconds.
Seriously, do you guys depend so much on the bubble that want it to be up 100% of the time? Experiment next things and come up with new builds, such as some guys I've seen that aren't perma and do have excellent threat generation.
Depends on the GF. I can have KV on and tank any/everything thus keeping my team up without a problem, and without them getting a scratch. So KV should also be nerfed since they did nerf the bubble
Knight's valor doesnt make team mates immortal and divine protector does. Kv's is glitched to begin with (doesnt give extra damage resistance either at all or at rank 4) you yet want it nerfed. You bubble fans need to start experimenting new builds and stop making people oblivious about their classes by making them immortal.
Knight's valor doesnt make team mates immortal and divine protector does. Kv's is glitched to begin with (doesnt give extra damage resistance either at all or at rank 4) you yet want it nerfed. You bubble fans need to start experimenting new builds and stop making people oblivious about their classes by making them immortal.
Clearly you didn't read what I typed, at least not correctly. I have a near BiS GF, and I know that KV is OP (that is, if they considered the Bubble to be OP, which they did). Thus, KV is also OP.
null You're just salty your godmode and broken daily power got a well deserved fix, thinking kv is op doesn't make it op regardless of what level your toon is.
Most good pc and xb1 players that main a gf or run with one often enough are likely to agree with my following statement:
1. Kv helps decent players, is pointless for bis dps players that can avoid red circles and nearly useless for bad ones like those who can't dodge at all as they die anyway (I'm looking at you random gwfs... not all though).
2. Bubble can carry clueless players with poorly built toons through most (notice the word "most" there as epic wolf den and maybe ecc can be a good exception) content especially if the paladin has good threat generation (I have run with some of them myself so dont play the "but but pallies suck at holding aggro!!" card) and high ap gain.
I have a 2,9k gf and when i run cn with randoms:
- If their dodging skills and dps are decent, we may have a good chance to complete the dungeon.
- If their dodging skills and dps are bad or terribad knight's valor won't save them so trying that run will be pointless.
I voted Yes, from a lag perspective. However some nuisance to it:
1. Bubble should stay as is for PvP 2. Ideally PvE wise it would 8 seconds at the original resistance on a longer respawn so that it can be used as the emergency tool it was intended to be.
NO! Just be a tank and forget about nonsense bubble as your main daily. And for the love of God stop spamming relentless avenger... I drop out of 50℅ of pug queues because there's a Pally throwing everything around the room.
You're just salty your godmode and broken daily power got a well deserved fix, thinking kv is op doesn't make it op regardless of what level your toon is.
Most good pc and xb1 players that main a gf or run with one often enough are likely to agree with my following statement:
1. Kv helps decent players, is pointless for bis dps players that can avoid red circles and nearly useless for bad ones like those who can't dodge at all as they die anyway (I'm looking at you random gwfs... not all though).
2. Bubble can carry clueless players with poorly built toons through most (notice the word "most" there as epic wolf den and maybe ecc can be a good exception) content especially if the paladin has good threat generation (I have run with some of them myself so dont play the "but but pallies suck at holding aggro!!" card) and high ap gain.
I have a 2,9k gf and when i run cn with randoms:
- If their dodging skills and dps are decent, we may have a good chance to complete the dungeon.
- If their dodging skills and dps are bad or terribad knight's valor won't save them so trying that run will be pointless.
i really feel you are underrating KV to avoid a nerf. it sure is nice when i have a GF running perma-KV when i am on my HR. it's almost like having a bubble, without the visual effects.
i'm not advocating for a nerf of it either, but there is a bit of hypocrisy here. 3k+ players don't need true immunity. with KV, and all of the other goodies we have now that provide self healing, the end result is similar to immunity. paladins have 2 powers that protect the party from heavy AoE wipes, and they were both nerfed.
Alot of GF's don't even run kv. Most that I know hate running it. So nerf it or get rid of it completely wouldn't bother any of the GF'S I know. They probably won't die as much so all good :-)
> @defiantone99 said: > If you think a GF does not make the team just as immortal as perma-bubble, you are playing with bad GFs.
^^ This guy knows. Yes your not immortal against the hardest dungeon boss in the game, but then again. Thats the hardest dungeon boss in the game. When I run my GF with KV in chats I refer to it as a bubble, I let people know when Im stunned watch out the bubble is down.
The only thing I miss about the bubble is fighting blue dragon. My guild is just a mid level guild, with most 70's in the 2500 range. With blues AOE one shot it makes taking on all 4 very difficult. Without being able to take on all 4 we retain only the most loyal members. Loosing valuable/capable players then makes it doulely difficult to organize 4 dragon raids. Since the bubble got* nerfed we went from running dragons for hours a day to once a week.
Dramacus 3.1 SW, Raven 2.9 HR, Aurora Shadowbain 2.7 GF, Mirduatas Vras 2.5 DC Si Vis Pacem 2.5 DC, Jade Shadowbain 2.4 CW, Para Bellum 1.5 GWF, President Not Sure lvl 69 OP Faith Shadowbain lvl 69 DC, Toof Fairy lvl 68 GWF, Arnie Shadowbain lvl 63 GF
Alot of GF's don't even run kv. Most that I know hate running it. So nerf it or get rid of it completely wouldn't bother any of the GF'S I know. They probably won't die as much so all good :-)
Any decent GF will run KV I run it all the time with mine, the only time I switch it off is if the team has members who are way under geared and even at my level (just short of 3.6) I get dropped or close to.
I build plenty of aggro as is. You just need to know how. The bubble should be 10 seconds, definitely not 6 or 20 or gone completely. Thats insanity thats what makes the Protector Pally the Protector Pally. And like other people have said people dont even want bubble pally now for highers dungeons which isnt cool. Now everyone wants gfs, dcs, or a healadin. Bring back the bubble!
I play PC version. 10s would be perma again for a lot of high IL pallies (except when stunned). Im 3.3k IL and invest to power and recovery. I have 20t recovery in battle (128% increased charge time and near 90% action point gain) and can do perma bubble when hit group of mobs (not boss alone). With use DC sigil (only epic now) I can maintain 3 bubbles at row, when needed. And I still feed recovery in my build. Game is for me much more interesting, with bubble for emergency use only.
Svatá Prdelka game - Human/real life - ??? OP 18k+ Devotion/Justice - Light
No point for the bubble in the first place, everything is do-able without it and serve the closest thing for a challenge they're going to get. All they need is an aggro buff.
A lightning enchantment will give them ALL the aggro they can handle... Once that lightning starts to chain all enemies HATE you lol
I was pissed about the bubble nerf when it happened on PC but my build carried through without a problem. I can still run ALMOST perma bubble using sprite companions and other AP gain.
I've now respec'd to a Healadin and she's so fun to play!
I have an OP and a GF, and let me tell you that it isn't that people don't know how to dodge, ever since the nerf I've run the same amount of dungeons with each of my tanks and only once I was with clueless ppl for sure, the thing is that for reasons unknown to me everyone plays differently depending on their tank.
When people see a Pally, they go "special" and #yolo all the run, the GWFs try to run ahead of you, and only a few care for red zones. Oh! But when you have a Guardian Fighter, all of a sudden everyone knows how to play properly
My personal opinion is that the bubble made players lazy and forget how to actual play PvE content and shouldn't have been allowed in PvP to begin with.
Comments
Epict TOS has become frustrating again for so many players (and I have run it without Pallies on my 4K gwf).
Going to do a CC run before long to see if guys are still getting one shot at the very first door
In classic D&D there are the following classes:
Fighter - No "great weapon" or "guardian", just fighter. Could go tanking, control or DPS (or some combo thereof).
Cleric - Looks almost exactly like what the Paladin currently is, but has the cleric skills. Buff and heals, off-tank. Wears armor, wields blunt weapon.
Paladin - Fighter who was only slightly less good at DPS and tanking, but had areas and slight healing. In other words a mix of Cleric and Paladin.
But they messed up that dynamic in designing the classes, straying into the WoW mold rather than sticking to D&D. Firstly by separating the fighters into two classes, and then by creating a cleric that is a 'priest' rather than the armoured support-fighter the cleric is in every other D&D based property. Now they're struggling to divide the skills of three D&D classes (fighter, cleric, paladin) among four classes (GWF, GF, OP, DC) and it obviously doesn't fit.
Or in other words - the GF was already pretty much a D&D pally, and the Priest-sytle Cleric has all the normal cleric abilities. They then tried to add a D&D style Cleric, called him a paladin, but had nothing for him to do.
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Plus there are circumstances where overlapping red zones make avoiding them totally impossible if you want to get the task done, but hey only 128 game days played in here so what would I know lol
(I haven't tried ECC or EGWD since I see no purpose whatsoever to being in those zones these days, but that's a different topic.)
I prefer tanking to healing, so rather than switch I'm just going to park my OPP in favor of the GF until a change occurs.
I still don't think bubble should be changed to 10 seconds, I would rather see a complete revision than go back to spamming the win button.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Less whiny (aka, neverwinter gamer) today, so feeling more optimistic! lol.
I can generally keep a GF or Pally alive through Orcus (even without a DC) with a combination of various things on my HR. Fox's + Oak Skin (heavily buffed) works a treat.
Alts :
Storm (SW70), Edge (TR70), AD Farm (CW70), Grunt (GF70), Rosa (DC70), AD AD AD (GWF70), Your Mum (OP70)
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So now while I enjoy my GF and can drag just about anyone thru anything I am a little troubled that on the two defender classes one is just a free encounter that is always on and the other uses a daily to provide the party defense which requires a big chunk of resources to keep it on, thus sacrificing other stats that would allow the proper threat generation for a tanky defender. I know exactly what I would have to spend to make it perma again, I just can't convince myself to do it.
They reduced the primary skill of a bubble pally to about 1/3 of it's previous state, maybe more if you consider the damage mitigation change. What if we did the same to the DPS class, like what if dropped GWF damage output to 1/3 of it's current state? It's an extreme change and I for one think it was too much.
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Your post and from other people on this thread prove you guys can't see the protection as more than a bubble spammer. What was extreme is not the nerf but how ridiculous the bubble was before it got fixed, it's the reason many players and especially tons of gwfs (not all though) have the reaction time of a potato and are unable to understand that red circles are meant to be avoided.
Knight's valor can be kept all the time because it offers extra protection that can't save team mates from being 1 shotted by several boss attacks.
Bubble makes team mates immortal so it shouldn't last longer than 6 seconds.
Seriously, do you guys depend so much on the bubble that want it to be up 100% of the time? Experiment next things and come up with new builds, such as some guys I've seen that aren't perma and do have excellent threat generation.
You're just salty your godmode and broken daily power got a well deserved fix, thinking kv is op doesn't make it op regardless of what level your toon is.
Most good pc and xb1 players that main a gf or run with one often enough are likely to agree with my following statement:
1. Kv helps decent players, is pointless for bis dps players that can avoid red circles and nearly useless for bad ones like those who can't dodge at all as they die anyway (I'm looking at you random gwfs... not all though).
2. Bubble can carry clueless players with poorly built toons through most (notice the word "most" there as epic wolf den and maybe ecc can be a good exception) content especially if the paladin has good threat generation (I have run with some of them myself so dont play the "but but pallies suck at holding aggro!!" card) and high ap gain.
I have a 2,9k gf and when i run cn with randoms:
- If their dodging skills and dps are decent, we may have a good chance to complete the dungeon.
- If their dodging skills and dps are bad or terribad knight's valor won't save them so trying that run will be pointless.
1. Bubble should stay as is for PvP
2. Ideally PvE wise it would 8 seconds at the original resistance on a longer respawn so that it can be used as the emergency tool it was intended to be.
i'm not advocating for a nerf of it either, but there is a bit of hypocrisy here. 3k+ players don't need true immunity. with KV, and all of the other goodies we have now that provide self healing, the end result is similar to immunity. paladins have 2 powers that protect the party from heavy AoE wipes, and they were both nerfed.
SoonerGM - HR Trapper
Haven - Righteous Cleric
Ethereal Justice - OP Paladin
> If you think a GF does not make the team just as immortal as perma-bubble, you are playing with bad GFs.
^^ This guy knows. Yes your not immortal against the hardest dungeon boss in the game, but then again. Thats the hardest dungeon boss in the game. When I run my GF with KV in chats I refer to it as a bubble, I let people know when Im stunned watch out the bubble is down.
The only thing I miss about the bubble is fighting blue dragon. My guild is just a mid level guild, with most 70's in the 2500 range. With blues AOE one shot it makes taking on all 4 very difficult. Without being able to take on all 4 we retain only the most loyal members. Loosing valuable/capable players then makes it doulely difficult to organize 4 dragon raids. Since the bubble got* nerfed we went from running dragons for hours a day to once a week.
Si Vis Pacem 2.5 DC, Jade Shadowbain 2.4 CW, Para Bellum 1.5 GWF, President Not Sure lvl 69 OP
Faith Shadowbain lvl 69 DC, Toof Fairy lvl 68 GWF, Arnie Shadowbain lvl 63 GF
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I play PC version. 10s would be perma again for a lot of high IL pallies (except when stunned). Im 3.3k IL and invest to power and recovery. I have 20t recovery in battle (128% increased charge time and near 90% action point gain) and can do perma bubble when hit group of mobs (not boss alone). With use DC sigil (only epic now) I can maintain 3 bubbles at row, when needed. And I still feed recovery in my build. Game is for me much more interesting, with bubble for emergency use only.
game - Human/real life - ???
OP 18k+ Devotion/Justice - Light
I was pissed about the bubble nerf when it happened on PC but my build carried through without a problem. I can still run ALMOST perma bubble using sprite companions and other AP gain.
I've now respec'd to a Healadin and she's so fun to play!
When people see a Pally, they go "special" and #yolo all the run, the GWFs try to run ahead of you, and only a few care for red zones. Oh! But when you have a Guardian Fighter, all of a sudden everyone knows how to play properly