ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
edited July 2016
Combat needs it's at-wills buffed considerably. Or at least buff at-wills a certain % and buff them further with an additional bonus from the capstone, same for archery. That way trapper could never further capitalize off these buffs. Archery is pretty lacking once it burns it's encounters off due to slightly underperforming ranged at-wills, just not as blindly awful as combat's melee variants.
Besides that, most encounters are relatively fine for archers. Rain of arrows and Cordon hit for chunks. Thorn Ward under a boss, ect. Combat has the nail in the coffin here. Marauder's rush deals single target baby damage. Rain of Swords does no damage even though the tooltip says so. No decent flat AoE hit or bleed DoT. Thorn Strike is pretty laughable. You won't want to slot boar charge. Hindering Strike is all but pointless for anything but trappers. Other powers are ranged damage and melee utility, so, can't really put them into a combat build.
Left with like 2 melee powers to actually dish damage. Fox Shift shouldn't really be considered a primary DPS power.
Combat is left with almost nothing to deal DPS. If the DEVs are worried that if they deal too much, their 15% LS feat at the end will become too powerful, just change it. Replace with deflect or something.
Please DEVs, you're killing me. I don't want to play combat gardener. I want to slash HAMSTER up without all this plant growth vine nonsense.
After mod5 DC and TR dodge improvements and now this is there a clear intention to make CWs the slowest slob of the game...
Might I suggest to require 30% more stamina to be balanced!
i hope they don't increase stamina drain from improved dodge; also hope they improve the invulnerability window when doing the dodge, not sure if they did or not but so far what i read they didn't mention it.
please at least go and try. its free
i might try sometime though with all my dailies and farming i do per day i don't have a lot of time to try the new stuff coming up
I admit I have not read every post in this thread. Its quite overwhelming. Kudos to amenar.
That being said, I'd like to add the following basic logic regarding HRs and my experience with the class.
DPS = (Damage) (Per Second)
Right now, the Trapper has both the (Damage) and the (Per Second).
I also see Trapper being more favorable as it can quickly reapply Longstrider's shot for a group buff. Survivability is superior with this tree due to the quick reapplication of CC effects. Solid AoE DoT from Thorned Roots. Lastly, its quite fun to be a ninja spider monkey bouncing around the map.
The logic surrounding the usefulness of the other two paragon paths, Archery and Combat, is that they need MASSIVE damage boosts.
The MASSIVE damage boost to Archery should be in the form of ranged attacks. Consider this to be the "sniper" type of gameplay. I don't like the damage increase based on distanc, because it's self defeating. You can miss out on group buffs and mobs tend to quickly close the gap anyhow. Realistically, this path needs Predator to apply once the HR enters combat, just like a Righteous DC's Avatar Ability. Prey should be applied to ALL enemies, not just one. (You're the predator and all the enemies are your prey.) Lastly, depending on existing methods of viable encounter cooldown options, Predator may even need to offer recharge speed increase to bring it into tune with Trapper.
The MASSIVE damage boost to Melee should be in the form of melee attacks. Melee attacks = close quarters combat = higher risk of taking damage. Blade Hurricane truthfully needs a signifcant revamp that offers comparable damage potential for melee encounters and increased deflect chance. Scything Blades should offer up to 10% increased damage per enemy, max stack 5. This would be a fun alternative to trapper, providing burst melee damage rather than DoT from Thorned Roots.
Lastly, the at-wills need to have their damage coefficients equalized to similar classes.
+1
i think the hunter rangers aoe attacks that affect a target area, or area around the player, or area around target enemy; should not have a target limit. its an area affect meant to hit anything within its proximity, but we have a limit of our aoe's to 5 no matter what skill we use. i think the best way to improve the melee and some archery skills is to remove this 5 target limit since melee wants to hit as many as possible that are close range and some archery skills do have aoe's and can benefit from hitting more then 5 enemies. speaking from pve when you do a dungeon and the tank pulls 20 creatures (3-5 mobs) you can only hit 5 enemies in that group of enemies. although i don't mind only hitting 5 enemies as i use my dodge to get to next spot to hit 5 new enemies have 10 enemies hit at once by my thorned roots in a dungeon, melee and range would benefit from being able to hit more then 5.
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patcherrkmMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 127Arc User
This is pvp-wise and directed to those who suggest the cooldown reduction nerf (someone also nerf and fix) -especially without proposing a super dps boost or new control mechanics- so that one can slot recovery to keep up with the CDs.
In the actual pvp meta (I'm talking of BiS pvpers) the thing is, yeah we do not need to stack recovery, we can focus on power arp and still we have no to laughable damage. One could argue, CWs have no damage, too. Well CWs have a 4 seconds repel which sends you on vacation while they are "getting the job done" on the node, a skill far more useful than all of our pvp skills imo.
Another argument could be, TRs stack recovery as well. But again, they only have to stack recovery and power, because they have SE that is crit granted due to stealth and does not need arp to let you meet with the Almighty while also making a coffee for themselves. Meanwhile they can decide you are a bit of a nuisance and simply slow you to dead while debuff you with one or two or even three (yeah three, tested it) CBs in a row (way the most powerful control skill ever, that can last up to 18 seconds and ignores CR).
Then again one could say GF and GWF do not have such a feat nor stack recovery and still pvp. To answer this would be easy, GFs do not need to spam skills since they can play behind their fortress and show up when tired of your miserable life to one rotate you, even after the new module will be out, and GWF they are almost more deadly when spamming their at wills lol (now less so thx to broken insignia bonus).
To those complaining of permadaze, which again is nowhere to be seen in top gs pvp -CR, tenacity, EB...-, (I guess also at lower level if those involved know how to pvp with proper gs and so on) let me add this: GWF everytime hr's rotation is spammed will go unstoppable...end of control, no damage taken; TR after ending his full rot, most of the times with a smoke, has a 3 second gap before casting ITC again (of course you have to try and catch em before they stealth) and ITC breaks controls. Cws play with high CR and elven battle, self heal like they were DCs and again can repel you to the other side of the map so that when you get back at them they are full health again. GFs have passive and daily that reduce or immunize to control, are at least a 5 minute one v one to grind them to death and cannot be faced aggressively because they just need to hit you once and gameover, most of the times due to the fact that you have done so many rootation that even trappers cooldown cannot recharge properly and they kill you or you will have to walk away a and when you get back they are full health again. And please take into account that we control on the spot, which is of no use in a pvp based on node fights where we cannot kill the controlled foe.
Having said that, if Devs are to deal with swiftness, fine. But just dealing with such a class mechanic 3 weeks before module 10 goes live I reckon could lead to another period of frustration and "parking lot" for most of pvp HRs, and possible pve as well. Such modifications are way too complex to be dealt with in this little time to me. I'd rather them having the changes ongoing in the owlbear server test for another month after module 10 is out than playing something "maybe" worse of what I'm playing now for 3 to 6 more months.
As regards feedbacks, as many have already pointed out, archery and melee capstone are usless for pvp (melee for pve as well). The halved damage on pvp players is no more needed thanks to insignias and 140 to 200+ k HP; as for the melee capstone, it could be even 2 times 300% more damage and would still be no damage since HR at wills deal less damage than a gobling that sneezes at you.
Moreover, almost all of their starting feats have no utility or ridicolously low benefits compared with the starting feats of most of other classes.
As someone already said, would be interesting to see some feats moved to the beggining of the paths to have nice new combinations that could bring hetherogeneity in the HR field.
Another nice addition would be a push effect similar to those already possesed by DC CW GF, maybe added to skills like boar charge. We have no dps to take advantage of its prone effect (anyway it's animation its almost longer than the prone so even if we had the dps we'd still get nothing out of it) and would add some more help to hold/conquer a node.
Speaking of bugs, please look into the interactions between split the sky/ thorn ward and stealthed foes (still speaking of pvp) -these bugs have being reported many times, but have always remained out of the various patches. They are AOE skills and should hit anything that comes into their damage range (or hits you for STS). If one is to play archery in a future pvp those skills could be very well performing on a pvp that develops mostly in node fight and such issues cannot be left unfixed.
Thanks for the attention and for the efforts you are making to try and improve the class giving importance to our feedbacks @amenar
Please listen to this person. knows his stuff.....
Fresh copy of my HR to preview. Screen shot of binding Arrow. For me it still says that it gives grasping roots.
do you think the devs would mind putting down how much defense we get from this and does the tier upgrades improve the defense gained or only the healing?
edit:i realized how dumb i was that the effectiveness does not affect the person using oak skin but the 2 party members.
A thought I had today while mowing the lawn about one reason archery deals less damage.
The concept of archery is supposedly to be far away from mobs and beat them up from a distance. In group content this is a big problem because most of the buffs are provided in pretty small areas. There are some large ones like empowered Break the Spirit but even Hallowed ground can easily be too small if an archer wants to gain max distance to boost their damage. This has been alleviated a bit with the change to hawkshot but there is still aspect of the falcon and even the Hawk pet that are encouraging the HR to be way far away.
Being out of range of buffs is bad. Buffs are what make classes do tons of damage sure having good base damage and stats are important, but stacking buffs is where things really come together. Archery just doesn't work with receiving buffs if they are way out in the back plinking away. and because archery is supposed to reward staying away from threats and not being in melee range archery will never be a build you can use in pvp with any sort of success since pvp requires you to sit on a node and survive while you either cap it or prevent a cap from happening. Nothing is worse in pvp then the ranged pug player who sits off node doing their encounters, those are the players that will cause you to lose a game.
Guild - The Imaginary Friends We are searching for slave labor, will pay with food from our farm!
Correct @scathias , the compensation is supposed to be the heroic feat that gives 3/6/9 more damage to atwills. The problem is if you pick this feat it doesn't really compensate for the buffs you would receive while remaining closer for the party buffs, which translates into close combat, meaning trapper or melee. The feat should instead be an aspect, and the feat should instead offer something else, I suggested cool down.
Updates of more upcoming patch notes, which should be seen on preview sometime next week. These supersede the patch notes mentioned in the post I made on Page 9, which is now crossed out and linked to this post.
Hunter Ranger: Aimed Shot: Charge time reduced by 0.75s (1.5s charge time at Rank 4, down from 2.25s). Damage has been reduced by ~10%, resulting in ~24% higher DPS. AP generation is still roughly the same. (This supersedes the initial patch note on the first page, which has been crossed out as well)
Hunter Ranger: Aimed Shot: No longer displays "Aimed Shot" on screen every time you fire the power.
Hunter Ranger: Ambush: Damage dealt by the initial hit increased by ~20%.
Hunter Ranger: Ambush: No longer falls off immediately if you have a DoT on someone.
Hunter Ranger: Aspect of the Serpent: Stacks will only be consumed by powers that actually deal damage. This means powers such as Stag Heart or Hawk Eye will build stacks, but not consume them.
Hunter Ranger: Aspect of the Serpent: The triggered effect of Careful Attack will no longer grant a stack of Aspect of the Serpent.
Hunter Ranger: Bear Trap: No longer has 2 charges that replenish every 15s. Instead, now has a 10s recharge time.
Hunter Ranger: Bear Trap: No longer locks you in place during activation.
Hunter Ranger: Clear the Ground: Damage increased ~50%.
Hunter Ranger: Electric Shot: Damage increased ~33%.
Hunter Ranger: Feats: Blade Hurricane: Now lasts 2 seconds, instead of just 1 At-Will attack.
Hunter Ranger: Feats: Blade Hurricane: Now triggers off using any melee Encounter power, instead of dealing damage with a melee Encounter power. This means every melee Encounter power should now trigger this Feat.
Hunter Ranger: Feats: Fluid Hunter: Now also increases your Crit Chance by the same amount as it increases your Deflect Chance.
Hunter Ranger: Feats: Piercing Blades: Now deals 10/20/30/40/50% bonus damage as Piercing Damage, up from 8/16/24/32/40%.
Hunter Ranger: Feats: Scything Blade: Now causes you to deal an additional 1/2/3/4/5% more melee damage at all times, in addition to the existing bonus damage based on nearby foes.
Hunter Ranger: Feats: Swiftness of the Fox: No longer triggers multiple times when hitting multiple targets.
Hunter Ranger: Plant Growth: The first hit of damage this power deals is now considered melee damage, instead of a DoT. This means it can now proc Blade Storm, and is affected by various Feats that only affect melee damage.
Hunter Ranger: Rain of Swords: No longer procs Blade Hurricane/Flurry on every tick of damage, just the initial hit.
Hunter Ranger: Rapid Strike: Increased the damage of the first 3 hits of the combo by ~30%, increasing the overall damage of the combo by ~20%.
Hunter Ranger: Split Shot: Decreased the amount of time required to reach maximum charge by 0.25s.
Hunter Ranger: Split Shot: Increased the damage dealt at minimum charge by ~10%.
@amenar could aspect of the serpent stacks be reworked to act like the stacks from the twisted sets? For instance if you use two ranged encounters (using both ranged stacks) you then have to use your third ranged encounter( first meele stack) followed by one ranged at will(second meele stack) in order to get two meele stacks. You have to use the at will because of the "neutral" stack that is in place when you consume both ranged stacks. Get rid of the neutral stack essentially.
Guild: Ruthless Character: Vendetta
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feanor70118Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,170Arc User
edited July 2016
What I see so far: Three or four things we actually needed and asked for (bigger dodge, faster aimed shot, careful attack no longer HAMSTER up aspect of the serpent); some completely off-target, unwanted changes that are just puzzling (buffs to ambush/bear trap, marauder's escape doing damage instead of providing immunity frames); a bunch of mostly tiny buffs that will make a small difference at best; uncalled-for and pointless nerfs to target caps that will hurt survivability and damage for NO REASON; uncalled-for, pointless and obnoxious nerf to the range of marauder's strike that will make it even harder to fight repelbot CWs; nothing that will really bring archery or combat up to par with trapper; and finally NO HELP AT ALL IN PVP. I'm glad @amenar is interacting with the community here but there isn't much good coming out of all this yet.
Oh, and it was nice to have our suspicions validated about off-hand damage and thorned root MONTHS AFTER WE ASKED FOR ANSWERS. Instead of a fix (adding off-hand damage would have brought the thorned roots build in line with other DPS classes in pve without all this tinkering), though, we get nothing.
I repeat my suggestion earlier: Increase base damage of most encounter powers by the damage done by thorned roots (1600% weapon damage over 8 seconds of ticks, 1000% over 5 seconds for non-trappers) and get rid of thorned roots entirely. Replace it with something that converts all DOT into burst damage against control immune targets. This will bring trapper up to par in pvp by giving it the damage it should already have while also bringing the other trees into balance. It will also allow for more flexibility of rotations as HRs discover that many long-unused powers are suddenly useful.
I know you came into this with limited goals, time and budget, but this project requires bigger fixes than what you've applied to this point.
I really don't want a "fix," i.e. nerf, to swiftness that requires HRs to stack recovery. No other class has to stack recovery to survive in pve. Any nerf to swiftness requires a corresponding large reduction in encounter - and charge refill - cooldowns and enormous buffs to at-wills to make them useful again. We also need strengthening of control powers for pvp balance. I never asked for permadaze and wouldn't want it, but right now HRs have weaker control powers than any class except DC. Increasing deflect severity to 75% is also a no-brainer and should have been done a long time ago.
@feanor70118 dude, I understand your frustrations and you make some good points. Just know amenar has been working his tail off across multiple classes, paragons, encounters, feats, class features, all while remaining calm and keeping close contact with the community. Lets keep it constructive because I really appreciate his efforts. He does read the feedback.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Nice buff for CtG. But I find it odd that rapid strike was only buffed 30% for the first few hits, making the single target weaker than the AoE.
Also consider rapid shot. It is slightly weaker than other ranged at-wills of other classes.
Updates of more upcoming patch notes, which should be seen on preview sometime next week. These supersede the patch notes mentioned in the post I made on Page 9, which is now crossed out and linked to this post.
Hunter Ranger: Aimed Shot: Charge time reduced by 0.75s (1.5s charge time at Rank 4, down from 2.25s). Damage has been reduced by ~10%, resulting in ~24% higher DPS. AP generation is still roughly the same. (This supersedes the initial patch note on the first page, which has been crossed out as well)
Hunter Ranger: Aimed Shot: No longer displays "Aimed Shot" on screen every time you fire the power.
Hunter Ranger: Ambush: Damage dealt by the initial hit increased by ~20%.
Hunter Ranger: Ambush: No longer falls off immediately if you have a DoT on someone.
Hunter Ranger: Aspect of the Serpent: Stacks will only be consumed by powers that actually deal damage. This means powers such as Stag Heart or Hawk Eye will build stacks, but not consume them.
Hunter Ranger: Aspect of the Serpent: The triggered effect of Careful Attack will no longer grant a stack of Aspect of the Serpent.
Hunter Ranger: Bear Trap: No longer has 2 charges that replenish every 15s. Instead, now has a 10s recharge time.
Hunter Ranger: Bear Trap: No longer locks you in place during activation.
Hunter Ranger: Clear the Ground: Damage increased ~50%.
Hunter Ranger: Electric Shot: Damage increased ~33%.
Hunter Ranger: Feats: Blade Hurricane: Now lasts 2 seconds, instead of just 1 At-Will attack.
Hunter Ranger: Feats: Blade Hurricane: Now triggers off using any melee Encounter power, instead of dealing damage with a melee Encounter power. This means every melee Encounter power should now trigger this Feat.
Hunter Ranger: Feats: Fluid Hunter: Now also increases your Crit Chance by the same amount as it increases your Deflect Chance.
Hunter Ranger: Feats: Piercing Blades: Now deals 10/20/30/40/50% bonus damage as Piercing Damage, up from 8/16/24/32/40%.
Hunter Ranger: Feats: Scything Blade: Now causes you to deal an additional 1/2/3/4/5% more melee damage at all times, in addition to the existing bonus damage based on nearby foes.
Hunter Ranger: Feats: Swiftness of the Fox: No longer triggers multiple times when hitting multiple targets.
Hunter Ranger: Plant Growth: The first hit of damage this power deals is now considered melee damage, instead of a DoT. This means it can now proc Blade Storm, and is affected by various Feats that only affect melee damage.
Hunter Ranger: Rain of Swords: No longer procs Blade Hurricane/Flurry on every tick of damage, just the initial hit.
Hunter Ranger: Rapid Strike: Increased the damage of the first 3 hits of the combo by ~30%, increasing the overall damage of the combo by ~20%.
Hunter Ranger: Split Shot: Decreased the amount of time required to reach maximum charge by 0.25s.
Hunter Ranger: Split Shot: Increased the damage dealt at minimum charge by ~10%.
Hunter Ranger: Split the Sky: Activation time reduced to 1.5s, down from 2s.
Hunter Ranger: Split the Sky: Reduced base recharge time to 18s, down from 22s.
Hunter Ranger: Thorned Roots: Updated the tooltip to make it clear that it deals damage based on your Main Hand weapon.
please take in consideration the idea of fixing Swiftness of the Fox , and improve the base damage for the hunter ranger on every encounter, and let HRs that play trapper to compensate using recovery . the class damage is a lack luster in PvP , while in PvE they perform pretty well since their damage comes from recharge speed > burst damage.
What I see so far: Three or four things we actually needed and asked for (bigger dodge, faster aimed shot, careful attack no longer **** up aspect of the serpent); some completely off-target, unwanted changes that are just puzzling (buffs to ambush/bear trap, marauder's escape doing damage instead of providing immunity frames); a bunch of mostly tiny buffs that will make a small difference at best; uncalled-for and pointless nerfs to target caps that will hurt survivability and damage for NO REASON; uncalled-for, pointless and obnoxious nerf to the range of marauder's strike that will make it even harder to fight repelbot CWs; nothing that will really bring archery or combat up to par with trapper; and finally NO HELP AT ALL IN PVP. I'm glad @amenar is interacting with the community here but there isn't much good coming out of all this yet.
Oh, and it was nice to have our suspicions validated about off-hand damage and thorned roots validated MONTHS AFTER WE ASKED FOR ANSWERS. Instead of a fix (adding off-hand damage would have brought the thorned roots build in line with other DPS classes in pve without all this tinkering), though, we get nothing.
I repeat my suggestion earlier: Increase base damage of most encounter powers by the damage done by thorned roots (1600% weapon damage over 8 seconds of ticks, 1000% over 5 seconds for non-trappers) and get rid of thorned roots entirely. Replace it with something that converts all DOT into burst damage against control immune targets. This will bring trapper up to par in pvp by giving it the damage it should already have while also bringing the other trees into balance. It will also allow for more flexibility of rotations as HRs discover that many long-unused powers are suddenly useful.
I know you came into this with limited goals, time and budget, but this project requires bigger fixes than what you've applied to this point.
I really don't want a "fix," i.e. nerf, to swiftness that requires HRs to stack recovery. No other class has to stack recovery to survive in pve. Any nerf to swiftness requires a corresponding large reduction in encounter - and charge refill - cooldowns and enormous buffs to at-wills to make them useful again. We also need strengthening of control powers for pvp balance. I never asked for permadaze and wouldn't want it, but right now HRs have weaker control powers than any class except DC. Increasing deflect severity to 75% is also a no-brainer and should have been done a long time ago.
+1
Make it so?
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hypergorila2Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 73Arc User
Hunter Ranger: Aspect of the Serpent: Stacks will only be consumed by powers that actually deal damage. This means powers such as Stag Heart or Hawk Eye will build stacks, but not consume them.
This looks great, but I'm a bit confused. Aspect of the Serpent doesn't allow to have stacks in both melee and ranged at the same time, so how can non damaging powers build stacks without consuming?
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vinceent1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,264Arc User
every single pvper no matter of what class playing will agree that HR striker class needs better damage or burst at pvp. every single one. I see how precisely you nerfed GF (too much if you ask me), i am suprised that cryptic can make things done if they want, but every little changes you already made across the board will be useless if you keep one striker class unable to kill. please say us something, promise us something, even if it will need more time to do then mod 10 launch
btw - we all deserve title "consoles launches survivor"
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feanor70118Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,170Arc User
@feanor70118 dude, I understand your frustrations and you make some good points. Just know amenar has been working his tail off across multiple classes, paragons, encounters, feats, class features, all while remaining calm and keeping close contact with the community. Lets keep it constructive because I really appreciate his efforts. He does read the feedback.
I think I'm being pretty respectful here but am sorry if he sees it otherwise. I've read his posts closely and I understand him to mean that Cryptic wanted a gradual, small-fix approach and thought that would be adequate. So we got a hundred small fixes that won't do the job when two or three big fixes (plus the few they've done that, in my opinion, are worthwhile) would have done it in a more efficient way. What I'm trying to get across is that, given that they have limited resources available for this, there's a faster and better way to go about it.
please take in consideration the idea of fixing Swiftness of the Fox , and improve the base damage for the hunter ranger on every encounter, and let HRs that play trapper to compensate using recovery . the class damage is a lack luster in PvP , while in PvE they perform pretty well since their damage comes from recharge speed > burst damage.
What an agenda, nerf the HR in a guise of making the class stronger. There are plenty of other ways to increase the dps of the other trees without making the trapper tree suffer. Time for you to move on now.
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feanor70118Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,170Arc User
Hunter Ranger: Aspect of the Serpent: Stacks will only be consumed by powers that actually deal damage. This means powers such as Stag Heart or Hawk Eye will build stacks, but not consume them.
This looks great, but I'm a bit confused. Aspect of the Serpent doesn't allow to have stacks in both melee and ranged at the same time, so how can non damaging powers build stacks without consuming?
Basically, you can use hawkeye without lowering your ranged stacks. So, if you want to hit hard with, say, the upgraded Commanding Shot or Hawk Shot and you've already got two ranged stacks up, now you can tab to melee, hit hawkeye and tab back to ranged without losing a stack. This is a good thing.
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hypergorila2Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 73Arc User
Hunter Ranger: Aspect of the Serpent: Stacks will only be consumed by powers that actually deal damage. This means powers such as Stag Heart or Hawk Eye will build stacks, but not consume them.
This looks great, but I'm a bit confused. Aspect of the Serpent doesn't allow to have stacks in both melee and ranged at the same time, so how can non damaging powers build stacks without consuming?
Basically, you can use hawkeye without lowering your ranged stacks. So, if you want to hit hard with, say, the upgraded Commanding Shot or Hawk Shot and you've already got two ranged stacks up, now you can tab to melee, hit hawkeye and tab back to ranged without losing a stack. This is a good thing.
Yes, I can understand that
But description says these powers now will build stacks, but not consume them. So imagine you have two melee stacks and use Hawk Eye, doing this won't consume a melee stack, but how can it build a ranged one?
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Hunter Ranger: Aspect of the Serpent: Stacks will only be consumed by powers that actually deal damage. This means powers such as Stag Heart or Hawk Eye will build stacks, but not consume them.
This looks great, but I'm a bit confused. Aspect of the Serpent doesn't allow to have stacks in both melee and ranged at the same time, so how can non damaging powers build stacks without consuming?
Basically, you can use hawkeye without lowering your ranged stacks. So, if you want to hit hard with, say, the upgraded Commanding Shot or Hawk Shot and you've already got two ranged stacks up, now you can tab to melee, hit hawkeye and tab back to ranged without losing a stack. This is a good thing.
Yes, I can understand that
But description says these powers now will build stacks, but not consume them. So imagine you have two melee stacks and use Hawk Eye, doing this won't consume a melee stack, but how can it build a ranged one?
It's not suggesting that a power would be able to do both at the same time, but how they will function depending where something falls in your rotation. At least theoretically, you could use a melee buff to open and get a ranged stack, but if you use the same buff while you have melee stacks, you won't waste them.
I am surprised that nobody is rioting over the swiftness of the fox nerf yet. It basically ruined the trapper meta/rotation. Its either stack mad amounts of recovery or fill in the voids with at wills..gg.
I think most people are waiting for these changes to appear on the test server to see and test because complaining without testing is kinda pointless at the moment.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Not looking too good. Less than a month away. Next patch might be the last one to test and give feedback on at this rate.
A thought I had today while mowing the lawn about one reason archery deals less damage.
The concept of archery is supposedly to be far away from mobs and beat them up from a distance. In group content this is a big problem because most of the buffs are provided in pretty small areas. There are some large ones like empowered Break the Spirit but even Hallowed ground can easily be too small if an archer wants to gain max distance to boost their damage. This has been alleviated a bit with the change to hawkshot but there is still aspect of the falcon and even the Hawk pet that are encouraging the HR to be way far away.
Being out of range of buffs is bad. Buffs are what make classes do tons of damage sure having good base damage and stats are important, but stacking buffs is where things really come together. Archery just doesn't work with receiving buffs if they are way out in the back plinking away. and because archery is supposed to reward staying away from threats and not being in melee range archery will never be a build you can use in pvp with any sort of success since pvp requires you to sit on a node and survive while you either cap it or prevent a cap from happening. Nothing is worse in pvp then the ranged pug player who sits off node doing their encounters, those are the players that will cause you to lose a game.
back when cap was 60 i would que for pvp in my corrupt black ice gear, not pvp gear really; but it has some tenacity. now i don't know about you but when i was full ranger and the enemies couldn't even stand on those nodes cause i would snipe them from afar, and the time it takes for them to get to me or even capture the node is not good enough, i would easily kill people back when cap was 60. took them on average 15 seconds to get to me and i would down their health in 30 seconds while still running away with marauders escape and forest ghost if they managed to get close. sure cap is now 70 and pvp might be harder but if you paly for class the way you want and learn how to maximize you classes potential, you cna do good. i was wearing corrupt black ice gear and using my pve build cause i use my pve build for all my playing pve pvp or dungeoning.
as for what you noted about buffs and now its true being out of them is pretty bad for a range hr, it is not really important. now i am still speaking from cap was 60 but when i was out of the buffs range, i still made 2nd place on damage sure i could have probably made 1'st place if the buffer was closer to me, but that would pull mobs closer to me too and fighting from max range is best, even if you lose a few buffs. for range, buffs are not important unless they keep you alive and with all the buffs you can give yourself and any teammates close bye the hr should be plenty of buffs just from himself.
Updates of more upcoming patch notes, which should be seen on preview sometime next week. These supersede the patch notes mentioned in the post I made on Page 9, which is now crossed out and linked to this post.
Hunter Ranger: Feats: Swiftness of the Fox: No longer triggers multiple times when hitting multiple targets.
This Just decreas DPS of HR. Nice... so this way you want to make hr better?) What you made instead to improve QoL? - Nothing.
Please return old CD skills!
@amenar And please tell us - what do you want to do with HR? Just make a little up of arch and melee? and nerf trapper? You told that you want up all trees...
What I see so far: Three or four things we actually needed and asked for (bigger dodge, faster aimed shot, careful attack no longer **** up aspect of the serpent); some completely off-target, unwanted changes that are just puzzling (buffs to ambush/bear trap, marauder's escape doing damage instead of providing immunity frames); a bunch of mostly tiny buffs that will make a small difference at best; uncalled-for and pointless nerfs to target caps that will hurt survivability and damage for NO REASON; uncalled-for, pointless and obnoxious nerf to the range of marauder's strike that will make it even harder to fight repelbot CWs; nothing that will really bring archery or combat up to par with trapper; and finally NO HELP AT ALL IN PVP. I'm glad @amenar is interacting with the community here but there isn't much good coming out of all this yet.
Oh, and it was nice to have our suspicions validated about off-hand damage and thorned root MONTHS AFTER WE ASKED FOR ANSWERS. Instead of a fix (adding off-hand damage would have brought the thorned roots build in line with other DPS classes in pve without all this tinkering), though, we get nothing.
I repeat my suggestion earlier: Increase base damage of most encounter powers by the damage done by thorned roots (1600% weapon damage over 8 seconds of ticks, 1000% over 5 seconds for non-trappers) and get rid of thorned roots entirely. Replace it with something that converts all DOT into burst damage against control immune targets. This will bring trapper up to par in pvp by giving it the damage it should already have while also bringing the other trees into balance. It will also allow for more flexibility of rotations as HRs discover that many long-unused powers are suddenly useful.
I know you came into this with limited goals, time and budget, but this project requires bigger fixes than what you've applied to this point.
I really don't want a "fix," i.e. nerf, to swiftness that requires HRs to stack recovery. No other class has to stack recovery to survive in pve. Any nerf to swiftness requires a corresponding large reduction in encounter - and charge refill - cooldowns and enormous buffs to at-wills to make them useful again. We also need strengthening of control powers for pvp balance. I never asked for permadaze and wouldn't want it, but right now HRs have weaker control powers than any class except DC. Increasing deflect severity to 75% is also a no-brainer and should have been done a long time ago.
+1
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feanor70118Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,170Arc User
I am surprised that nobody is rioting over the swiftness of the fox nerf yet. It basically ruined the trapper meta/rotation. Its either stack mad amounts of recovery or fill in the voids with at wills..gg.
I think most people are waiting for these changes to appear on the test server to see and test because complaining without testing is kinda pointless at the moment.
In pve I rarely have to repeat a rotation on one group of mobs, but I admit, I'm full R12s and I run at around 46-48k power with Companion's Gift up. This probably will be a problem for lower geared players.
I am surprised that nobody is rioting over the swiftness of the fox nerf yet. It basically ruined the trapper meta/rotation. Its either stack mad amounts of recovery or fill in the voids with at wills..gg.
Yes, it'll be interesting to see how this works in practice. I suspect it will be harmful to the build. We'll have to see how it plays out, but this was really unexpected and seems like a huge backwards step for this discussion.
If trappers are required to stack recovery it will have to be at the cost of other stats, quite possibly power and/or crit strike. For damage output, that will take the build backwards, not forwards, which is not in line with the stated goals of this class pass. Stacking recovery will come an opportunity cost in other areas, which means making a build which the developers have already acknowledged as underperforming pay an additional price just to do what it does now. That is not an improvement at all.
Some of the very same people making 'helpful' suggestions like this also rabidly defend any changes to their own favourite classes in other parts of the forums, labelling suggestions for changes as being attacks on their classes by haters. I hope the developers are able to see what is actually going on here. This discussion is being hijacked by a few people who are clearly concerned about protecting their place in the current pecking order, not actually improving HRs.
The problems with combat and archery underperforming could be fixed with feat changes to those trees, it's only a matter of working out the details. I haven't seen any argument in this thread yet which can explain why trappers have to be made worse to make the other styles better. Just improve the higher tier feats for those other two styles in such a way that players can't build a character which can cherry pick all the best stuff from more than one tree.
A thought I had today while mowing the lawn about one reason archery deals less damage.
The concept of archery is supposedly to be far away from mobs and beat them up from a distance. In group content this is a big problem because most of the buffs are provided in pretty small areas. There are some large ones like empowered Break the Spirit but even Hallowed ground can easily be too small if an archer wants to gain max distance to boost their damage. This has been alleviated a bit with the change to hawkshot but there is still aspect of the falcon and even the Hawk pet that are encouraging the HR to be way far away.
Being out of range of buffs is bad. Buffs are what make classes do tons of damage sure having good base damage and stats are important, but stacking buffs is where things really come together. Archery just doesn't work with receiving buffs if they are way out in the back plinking away. and because archery is supposed to reward staying away from threats and not being in melee range archery will never be a build you can use in pvp with any sort of success since pvp requires you to sit on a node and survive while you either cap it or prevent a cap from happening. Nothing is worse in pvp then the ranged pug player who sits off node doing their encounters, those are the players that will cause you to lose a game.
back when cap was 60 i would que for pvp in my corrupt black ice gear, not pvp gear really; but it has some tenacity. now i don't know about you but when i was full ranger and the enemies couldn't even stand on those nodes cause i would snipe them from afar, and the time it takes for them to get to me or even capture the node is not good enough, i would easily kill people back when cap was 60. took them on average 15 seconds to get to me and i would down their health in 30 seconds while still running away with marauders escape and forest ghost if they managed to get close. sure cap is now 70 and pvp might be harder but if you paly for class the way you want and learn how to maximize you classes potential, you cna do good. i was wearing corrupt black ice gear and using my pve build cause i use my pve build for all my playing pve pvp or dungeoning.
as for what you noted about buffs and now its true being out of them is pretty bad for a range hr, it is not really important. now i am still speaking from cap was 60 but when i was out of the buffs range, i still made 2nd place on damage sure i could have probably made 1'st place if the buffer was closer to me, but that would pull mobs closer to me too and fighting from max range is best, even if you lose a few buffs. for range, buffs are not important unless they keep you alive and with all the buffs you can give yourself and any teammates close bye the hr should be plenty of buffs just from himself.
The thing is, pvp is completely different now than back in whatever time your archer was good. in order to cap you don't need to clear the node (just outnumber), and to contest the node you have to have equal numbers of people on the node as your opponent. Simply put, if you are not on the node you are not helping. Now, if archery gets some huge buffs and starts being able to one shot from way back... yeah no, i still don't think that will work. You are 1v1 for a node, if you are way back shooting at the opponent who is on the node you are not contesting, so you bleed points for as long as it takes to clear the node then you still need to travel to the node and start capping before an opponent returns. And when you are far away you have no positioning power at all. That isn't even getting to the point of how much healing everyone has now. in full premade vs premade fights people rarely die, even with TRs and GFs and their one shot capabilities, those fights are all about node control and as i explained above, an archer doesn't seem to be able to do that anymore
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They could bring back the trapper rotation ( or closing the gap) by adding more cooldown reduction to swiftness of fox..i dunno.. from 15 to 30 maybe? Need to test before one can tell.
Now that trapper is brought down a notch..HR overall damage need to reevaluate once again and further boost them accordingly back to competitive level.
Comments
Besides that, most encounters are relatively fine for archers. Rain of arrows and Cordon hit for chunks. Thorn Ward under a boss, ect.
Combat has the nail in the coffin here.
Marauder's rush deals single target baby damage.
Rain of Swords does no damage even though the tooltip says so. No decent flat AoE hit or bleed DoT.
Thorn Strike is pretty laughable.
You won't want to slot boar charge.
Hindering Strike is all but pointless for anything but trappers.
Other powers are ranged damage and melee utility, so, can't really put them into a combat build.
Left with like 2 melee powers to actually dish damage. Fox Shift shouldn't really be considered a primary DPS power.
Combat is left with almost nothing to deal DPS. If the DEVs are worried that if they deal too much, their 15% LS feat at the end will become too powerful, just change it. Replace with deflect or something.
Please DEVs, you're killing me. I don't want to play combat gardener. I want to slash HAMSTER up without all this plant growth vine nonsense.
i think the hunter rangers aoe attacks that affect a target area, or area around the player, or area around target enemy; should not have a target limit. its an area affect meant to hit anything within its proximity, but we have a limit of our aoe's to 5 no matter what skill we use. i think the best way to improve the melee and some archery skills is to remove this 5 target limit since melee wants to hit as many as possible that are close range and some archery skills do have aoe's and can benefit from hitting more then 5 enemies.
speaking from pve when you do a dungeon and the tank pulls 20 creatures (3-5 mobs) you can only hit 5 enemies in that group of enemies. although i don't mind only hitting 5 enemies as i use my dodge to get to next spot to hit 5 new enemies have 10 enemies hit at once by my thorned roots in a dungeon, melee and range would benefit from being able to hit more then 5.
edit:i realized how dumb i was that the effectiveness does not affect the person using oak skin but the 2 party members.
The concept of archery is supposedly to be far away from mobs and beat them up from a distance. In group content this is a big problem because most of the buffs are provided in pretty small areas. There are some large ones like empowered Break the Spirit but even Hallowed ground can easily be too small if an archer wants to gain max distance to boost their damage. This has been alleviated a bit with the change to hawkshot but there is still aspect of the falcon and even the Hawk pet that are encouraging the HR to be way far away.
Being out of range of buffs is bad. Buffs are what make classes do tons of damage sure having good base damage and stats are important, but stacking buffs is where things really come together. Archery just doesn't work with receiving buffs if they are way out in the back plinking away. and because archery is supposed to reward staying away from threats and not being in melee range archery will never be a build you can use in pvp with any sort of success since pvp requires you to sit on a node and survive while you either cap it or prevent a cap from happening. Nothing is worse in pvp then the ranged pug player who sits off node doing their encounters, those are the players that will cause you to lose a game.
We are searching for slave labor, will pay with food from our farm!
Character: Vendetta
Oh, and it was nice to have our suspicions validated about off-hand damage and thorned root MONTHS AFTER WE ASKED FOR ANSWERS. Instead of a fix (adding off-hand damage would have brought the thorned roots build in line with other DPS classes in pve without all this tinkering), though, we get nothing.
I repeat my suggestion earlier: Increase base damage of most encounter powers by the damage done by thorned roots (1600% weapon damage over 8 seconds of ticks, 1000% over 5 seconds for non-trappers) and get rid of thorned roots entirely. Replace it with something that converts all DOT into burst damage against control immune targets. This will bring trapper up to par in pvp by giving it the damage it should already have while also bringing the other trees into balance. It will also allow for more flexibility of rotations as HRs discover that many long-unused powers are suddenly useful.
I know you came into this with limited goals, time and budget, but this project requires bigger fixes than what you've applied to this point.
I really don't want a "fix," i.e. nerf, to swiftness that requires HRs to stack recovery. No other class has to stack recovery to survive in pve. Any nerf to swiftness requires a corresponding large reduction in encounter - and charge refill - cooldowns and enormous buffs to at-wills to make them useful again. We also need strengthening of control powers for pvp balance. I never asked for permadaze and wouldn't want it, but right now HRs have weaker control powers than any class except DC. Increasing deflect severity to 75% is also a no-brainer and should have been done a long time ago.
Also consider rapid shot. It is slightly weaker than other ranged at-wills of other classes.
Make it so?
- Hunter Ranger: Aspect of the Serpent: Stacks will only be consumed by powers that actually deal damage. This means powers such as Stag Heart or Hawk Eye will build stacks, but not consume them.
This looks great, but I'm a bit confused.Aspect of the Serpent doesn't allow to have stacks in both melee and ranged at the same time, so how can non damaging powers build stacks without consuming?
every single pvper no matter of what class playing will agree that HR striker class needs better damage or burst at pvp. every single one. I see how precisely you nerfed GF (too much if you ask me), i am suprised that cryptic can make things done if they want, but every little changes you already made across the board will be useless if you keep one striker class unable to kill. please say us something, promise us something, even if it will need more time to do then mod 10 launch
btw - we all deserve title "consoles launches survivor"
But description says these powers now will build stacks, but not consume them.
So imagine you have two melee stacks and use Hawk Eye, doing this won't consume a melee stack, but how can it build a ranged one?
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
i was wearing corrupt black ice gear and using my pve build cause i use my pve build for all my playing pve pvp or dungeoning.
as for what you noted about buffs and now its true being out of them is pretty bad for a range hr, it is not really important. now i am still speaking from cap was 60 but when i was out of the buffs range, i still made 2nd place on damage sure i could have probably made 1'st place if the buffer was closer to me, but that would pull mobs closer to me too and fighting from max range is best, even if you lose a few buffs. for range, buffs are not important unless they keep you alive and with all the buffs you can give yourself and any teammates close bye the hr should be plenty of buffs just from himself.
What you made instead to improve QoL? - Nothing.
Please return old CD skills!
@amenar
And please tell us - what do you want to do with HR? Just make a little up of arch and melee? and nerf trapper? You told that you want up all trees...
Please answer.
If trappers are required to stack recovery it will have to be at the cost of other stats, quite possibly power and/or crit strike. For damage output, that will take the build backwards, not forwards, which is not in line with the stated goals of this class pass. Stacking recovery will come an opportunity cost in other areas, which means making a build which the developers have already acknowledged as underperforming pay an additional price just to do what it does now. That is not an improvement at all.
Some of the very same people making 'helpful' suggestions like this also rabidly defend any changes to their own favourite classes in other parts of the forums, labelling suggestions for changes as being attacks on their classes by haters. I hope the developers are able to see what is actually going on here. This discussion is being hijacked by a few people who are clearly concerned about protecting their place in the current pecking order, not actually improving HRs.
The problems with combat and archery underperforming could be fixed with feat changes to those trees, it's only a matter of working out the details. I haven't seen any argument in this thread yet which can explain why trappers have to be made worse to make the other styles better. Just improve the higher tier feats for those other two styles in such a way that players can't build a character which can cherry pick all the best stuff from more than one tree.
Thanks.
We are searching for slave labor, will pay with food from our farm!
Now that trapper is brought down a notch..HR overall damage need to reevaluate once again and further boost them accordingly back to competitive level.