onegaki101Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 327Arc User
edited July 2016
Lol the video is misleading. IL is a useless number that for some reason people in the game feel it actually means something. Also, not all stats are counted towards IL.
A 300 IL toon it not always the same as another 300 IL. The same as a 300IL is weaker than the same toon at 800IL. And so forth.
But to the OP's point, yes this game is easy, especially when you have players playing classes to their strength, just like any other game.
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revan06100Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 205Arc User
edited July 2016
As i said earlier, to take only 15k damages from orcus is not normal, there is clearly massive buffs in your group that can't work any way else... I did CN with my GF today (2.8 IL) along with a DC (3.5 IL) and i still got hit like hell (between 20 and 50 on each hit), though i have 17k defense, and the DC used Astral shield, divine glow and other debuff encounters. I think your video is misleading, you need the right group compo and a great coordination to achieve what you did...
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wurmschwanzMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 35Arc User
edited July 2016
Sure, you need a good group which talks to eachother and trust eachother. But I bet we can easily do it with a group with gf, dc, gwf, cw, tr, hr and so on. I didn't said that it's easy with randoms, you need a group of people you know. But I think the classes can vary. You don't need two dcs or something like this.
And massive buffs? Sure we buffed eachother. But we couldn't buff extremely (and not even that extrem your team could have buffed you, @revan06100) because our stats were so low and we didn't have companions. Please remember that my dc is not a AC, so we couldn't spam AA. You are right, you need a good group (at least tank and heal, who can support great) and a great coordination.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
@wurmschwanz don't bother arguing with these people. They have a set opinion that they have no interest in changing. It is a nice run, even though you will never get them to admit it.
People think they know what I'm trying to say but they don't. I don't want JUST hard dungeons, I don't say everyone can do it like we did it in this run. I want to show that this is the situation of the dungeons for players who know their classes and their team. I want a big variation of dungeons for everyone! Easy, fast dungeons but also hard, long dungeons. If you don't wanna run long dungeons or can't beat em it's okay and then you shouldn't do it. It's the problem with the mindset of players today. I can't remember people who complained that they couldn't do CN (I bet there were some of them but never noticed.) I did CN with my guild the first time I had around 14-15k, I never thought about CN when I was weaker. I didn't beat it? No problem, we tried it, we trained and someday we did it and it was an awesome feeling for all the people in my guild. Players today just want ,,fast-food content" - content, everyone can do with the tiniest amount of gear and teamwork. This is a big problem. In previous mods we had to chance to choose between easy, short dungeons and really hard dungeons but today we just have these seven dungeons. We need MORE dungeons and/or more difficulty on legendary/nightmare/whatever you want to call it mode on dungeons.
My problem is that the OP's claim, that "CN is too easy because we beat it with sub-1k ilvl toons" based on their video, is misleading, since the group used their Stronghold boons and Mount Insignia bonuses as well, which don't get factored into ilevel. If you took away those stronghold boons and other bonuses, and added back the gear that would grant you a comparable amount of stats as those boons and bonuses, I bet the ilevel would be near 2k, which is what is needed to enter the door. So what you really showed is that if you have toons which can just barely walk in the door, that only with perfect coordination and perfect buff stacking, you can beat the dungeon. Which isn't exactly some huge revelation, and does not support the claim that CN is "too easy". The OP tried to make a claim based on a video that was at best misleading, at worst deceptive.
Based on my personal experience, the higher-end dungeons are not "too easy". They are, however, designed such that a group does NOT require the perfectly optimal buff stacking in order to win. Would you really want a dungeon that was so hard, the *only* way to win was, say, to bring a buff GF and an AC DC that would perfectly time their buffs? It would effectively channel every GF and every DC to have the exact same build and basically be clones of one another. Is this really what you want?
Now I don't claim to be a high-end player, I have only a 3.2k GWF. I will solo queue and use LFG for dungeons occasionally, I will do dungeons with my guild, which is not full of high-end players either. Occasionally I will do content with the legit channel. Here is my experience:
- I have never been in a group that killed Tiamat on the first round. Only a couple of times have I been a group that killed Tiamat on the second round. I have seen more fourth-round wins than second-round wins. - I have never been in a group that killed Syndryth before she transformed. - I have never been in a group that killed Orcus before the undead adventurer phase. - Out of all the times I have been in Demogorgon, both normal and epic, I would estimate less than 10% of those attempts did the group deliberately not aim Goristro for a yellow portal, instead preferring to just burn him down. (And not all of those were successful.)
I think this experience is more representative of what the large majority of players actually feel, instead of the very high-end players on the forums complaining that it is all too easy because they only play with other high-end players. Out of all of the dungeons and raids that I have been in, I have interacted with a great many players. Were we *all* terrible rotten players because, say, we couldn't beat Tiamat in the first round? No, I think we are all just typical, average players.
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wurmschwanzMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 35Arc User
edited July 2016
Why do you think we are ,,very high-end players"? My main is my gwf with 3,3k and my twink Molun (dc in this video) has 3k. In my guild most players have 3-3,5k with their mains. Yes, it may be true that we could have more IL if we put on more gear instead of mounts etc. BUT you forget: gear has a lot of tp. Mounts and insignias (we used) don't have. Gear has a lot of stats like power, crit, defense, tp etc. a single mount with a bonus of 2k and some insignias don't get us these stats, just a lot of a single stat.
Oh, and btw (I don't know how many times I wrote it in this thread): NO, I don't want dungeons being so hard that you can only do this with this buffs or debuffs. But I want dungeons where even good players need teamwork AND strategy. I wish we had the need to open the caskets in vt, to pull Goristro into the holes, to extinguish fire in eCC or something like this. But there is no point in doing this. I wish there was a dungeon where we need some guild boons, mount bonus or insignias. I wish we could need setboni. But there is nothing like this.
I wish we had the need to open the caskets in vt, to pull Goristro into the holes, to extinguish fire in eCC or something like this. But there is no point in doing this.
For most of us, THERE IS the need to do these things. That is what I am trying to say. Just because you don't aim Goristro at portals anymore, doesn't mean that no one ever does.
Specifically, as I wrote above, about 90% of the time I did a Demo run, the group DID aim Goristro for the portals. That happens. Just because that 10% of the time it wasn't necessary, doesn't mean that the dungeon is "too easy" as a general statement.
Seriously, solo queue for ELOL sometime. I am willing to bet that you will find a group that is stuck at the scorpions.
im the SW in this vid and i have the following insignia buffs:
3% power when my companion attacks (useless as i have no active companion) recovery movement and so on when i use a artifact (useless as i have no artifact to use) panther wich has no insigia buff 15% movementspeed and heal when i proc lifesteal
i dont know what all the others have but these definitely made no difference in this run.
You cant denie the fact that theres no endcontent at the moment, If we run full equiped no boss lasts longer then a few seconds. And think there should be at least 1 or 2 dungeons which are not doable without great teamwork and high level equip. There are enough easy dungeons in this game at least in my opinion,
@chemjeff great if you have a challenge everytime you que random but dont you think that the "high level" players also deserve to atleast have some kind of challange in this game?
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wurmschwanzMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 35Arc User
I don't know what you want from me. I think it's okay with easy dungeons but it's not okay to ONLY have easy dungeons because I think there are many players out there who need a real challenge. CN is supposed to be the hardest dungeon ingame. But the hardest dungeon is just boring once you know your team and your class.
Yes, I know. I did a lot of random runs. But you know what? I don't have to. Why should I do having trouble with people I don't know and get pissed of because they sometimes just act dumb when instead I can have fun with my guildies?
Thank you for posting your vid and comments. Please don't fall for the 'red herring' issues like discussing iLevels or buff or mounts, etc. You guys did a great run, and probably had fun doing it. I appreciate the run for what it is--an excellent example of how to have a 5 toon team work together to 'melt' a dungeon.
The way I read posts like yours is that you are offering the opportunity to learn how other teams play a dungeon as well as point out a suggestion for the Devs. Hopefully your video will help me to become a better player, so that when I pug, I don't drag down a team, or when I play with my guildies, I can offer suggestions that I have seen on the forums so that we don't wipe in the future. I know others have 'taken offense' at your post, but apparently it is a touchy subject to claim dungeons are too easy or too hard. I actually think most people that have responded to this post have the same opinion as what you are posting--keep the current dungeons but provide some that are more challenging. (be all things to all people--a bit difficult because of the tremendous spread in player ability and capability)
In your case (and @thefabricant and @defiantone99 and others who have commented on the ease of dungeons), harder dungeons would be beneficial because it isn't as fun if everything melts. I agree with your opinion that a larger option for degree of difficulty would be outstanding--and not only the difficulty, but the length of dungeon. Plenty of posts on this forum that have said the same thing. +1 to those posts.
That said, I tend to find my toons in the opposite side--dungeons are still difficult, and enjoyable. I am a casual player in a small guild of casual players, and most of the time we need to add a few solo people in order to do a 5 man dungeon. It really turns into a Pug run at that point. And yes, we tend to wipe more frequently, even though our 'iLevel' is more than sufficient for the dungeon. This past weekend we wiped at the Scorpions at least six times because of poor play, poor communication, lag, etc. It wasn't 'fun' in the sense that we kept dying, but it was actually much more enjoyable than the Kessel's run that we had just finished. In the Kessel's, we just grouped as many mobs as possible with little or no danger to our toons and managed to finish the skirmish fairly quickly. Not as much of a challenge, and not as much fun. So I understand what you are saying with regards to dungeons that at not a challenge.
My comment is not to argue that we shouldn't have more difficult dungeons--I agree with you that many players could benefit with a higher degree of dungeon difficulty. My comment is to encourage the Dev's to add that degree of difficulty but also to keep the lower levels for players of my caliber. Cuz I am just not that good
Congrats on the run and I hope that the new dungeon provides you with plenty of excitement. Good Luck.
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wurmschwanzMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 35Arc User
Thank you @aslan3775. Finally someone (and of course some others in this thread) who understands me and this video.
Great video! I watched it on my cell, so I didn't get all the juicy details. But it did look like you were struggling in there a few times.
The video is not misleading at all. It shows that having a good build and knowing how to use it in a team matters a lot more the ilvl. In stead of complaing, people should start picking up what you are doing. There is a lot of information easily availeble out there. And it does not take much to ask a few questions in the relevant class forums.
With dreams to be a king, first one should be a man.
The video is not misleading at all. It shows that having a good build and knowing how to use it in a team matters a lot more the ilvl.
I would state that differently... if you have a good build and know what you are doing, you don't need a high ilvl.
If you do have a fairly high ilvl it does matter a lot, because you can stomp any content almost without thinking. It's not good for the game when end-game content becomes trivial for a player that doesn't understand his toon / his roll in a party just because the toon is decently geared.
Dungeons easy, I lvl... Blah blah. Are you aware of what the word "twink" actually means? Google it. Then, stop saying it, since it's wildly inappropriate. Thx!
My comment is to encourage the Dev's to add that degree of difficulty but also to keep the lower levels for players of my caliber. Cuz I am just not that good
Absolutely agree. The challenge for the "elites" needs to come from adding extra hard dungeons, not making the ones we got harder or nerfing all our classes so we are going backwards.
Hell bring in a "extreme" version of all dungeons where all mobs have 150% DR and 150% ArP or a suitable number.
But I bet if the RAD (or AD) earned Vs time spent playing the harder dungeons is not the same or better than the easy ones, then most of the ppl screaming for challenging content will still end up running the old easy, faster to earn RAD, stuff anyway.
ITT I see two points of view. OP and select others on one side, and everyone else on the wrong side.
We JUST want a tier of dungeons and content suitable for end-game. We DON'T want to take away your level 68 Malabog's Castle, your Valindra's "tank and spank" Tower, or your "epic" Skirmish of the Spider. Keep them in as is. What about a really difficult version of edemo or CN that dropped +5s 0.0002% of the time instead of 0.0001%?? What about 10k rough AD for a higher tier of dungeons and everything else stays the same? NO-ONE is proposing keeping new players from getting the gear they need. All we want is something to do once you get there.........
OP, you should be more descriptive on your first post. If you say that you used Teamspeak for coordination, your responses might have been different. And never ever use the word 'easy'. You shared your stuff, that's cool. And it's a good vid. It's only your post that needs to be more....refined. New players here didn't have your experiences that you do or anything that you have done before you attempt CN. And....um, don't leave any details behind. Think of it like a service report for your achievements.
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arandompandaMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 107Arc User
ITT I see two points of view. OP and select others on one side, and everyone else on the wrong side.
We JUST want a tier of dungeons and content suitable for end-game. We DON'T want to take away your level 68 Malabog's Castle, your Valindra's "tank and spank" Tower, or your "epic" Skirmish of the Spider. Keep them in as is. What about a really difficult version of edemo or CN that dropped +5s 0.0002% of the time instead of 0.0001%?? What about 10k rough AD for a higher tier of dungeons and everything else stays the same? NO-ONE is proposing keeping new players from getting the gear they need. All we want is something to do once you get there.........
So... you're saying you want Cyptic to do EXACTLY what it's already doing then?
We’re adding a new 5-player dungeon named, Fangbreaker Island. This will be the hardest content in the game and will require a higher item level than any of our other queues. This dungeon is meant to be a challenge and will give you access to the newest, and (for their slots) best gear in the game so far.
I'm aware of the devblog yes but it's not quite what I'm after. The problem with creating a new tier of dungeons that you NEED to complete to get the best gear is that there will be a LOT of community backlash from the 95% of players who cannot complete it. It will then result in a lot of nerfs etc being done. I'd MUCH rather an optional harder tier of dungeons that give slightly better rewards instead.
We have that hard dungeon now. It's Epic Gray Wolf Den. Most players can't finish it. And almost nobody does it.
That is what will happen if you have some "optional" super-hard dungeon. No one will do it. The average players won't be able to do it, and the high-end players won't do it as it would be a waste of time compared to the easier ones.
We had the same thing back in the Mod 1/2/3 days. It was Epic Dread Vault. It was super-hard back then, and almost nobody did it because it didn't have good rewards.
Asking for some optional super-hard dungeon is just a waste of time on the devs' part, because it will be under-used.
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wurmschwanzMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 35Arc User
I bet people don't do eGWD because it's the longest. Compare it to eToS or CN and you see that eGWD takes longer just because it is longer.
Didn't DV have some great rewards? I faintly remember some weapons that sold for a million +.
Now that you mention it, there was a ring I think, that dropped from either the first or second boss, that sold well. But the loot from the final boss, and from the chest, was HAMSTER. It dropped T2 mainhands, which were not as good as the T2.5 mainhands from Castle Never.
Oh man, eDV was amazing. Before Weaponsmithing, the best tank GWF (PVP) Mainhand (Greatsword of the Titan) came from eDV. I was far too noob at that time to do it, unfortunately. Got carried by some really nice endgame players who were on their way out of the game through the dungeon. They all rolled pass on it despite me playing a DC. Sold it for 4? million AD back when that was a ton for me.
That whole meta would've been perfect if they put the same loot table as CN in eDV, but with perhaps a guaranteed T2.5 weapon drop, then that's exactly what I'd be after.
In module 6, back when DR was bugged and everyone was far weaker eGWD was a very good challenge. Unfortunately back then I wasn't strong enough to beat it, and also it didn't give rewards commensurate with its challenge. It gave the same rewards as all the other T2s, despite being significantly tougher than eTOS and a lot tougher than dragging the ECC boss onto the spikes too. Right now, however, eGWD doesn't provide any drops on par with other top tier content. It's also not at all a challenge for geared parties . I still run it about once a week on average though.
lol chemjeff we do egwd in under 10 min without tank i dont know where this is nearly a challenge
Congratulations! I'd say you are probably in the top 5%-10% of the players. I would reckon most players can't finish this dungeon at all, let alone finish it in 10 minutes.
Now, be honest. How many times have you done eGWD, as compared to, say, eTOS or CN?
Furthermore, suppose there was a new, harder dungeon, that was optional, that gave rewards that were the same or only marginally better than eGWD. Would you do this new dungeon, which might be very long and take hours, even for a good player such as yourself? Or would you do eGWD, which you know you can finish in 10 minutes? Sure you might do the new dungeon a few times, just for the sake of accomplishment. But when it comes to the effort/reward ratio, your time would be better spent in eGWD, collecting the rewards that are almost as good as the ones in the new dungeon.
The history of this game has demonstrated that players tend to be motivated by the rewards, rather than the challenge of the dungeon; and that players will tend to take the path of least resistance.
I don't want the devs to devote huge resources to content that only maybe 5% of the players can possibly take advantage of. If they are going to make super-hard dungeons, I would like them to be necessary for progression. The top 5% would be able to beat them right away, average players like myself would have to really struggle and work at it to be successful at it, but everyone eventually would have to go there and then beat the dungeon in order to make progress.
Comments
A 300 IL toon it not always the same as another 300 IL. The same as a 300IL is weaker than the same toon at 800IL. And so forth.
But to the OP's point, yes this game is easy, especially when you have players playing classes to their strength, just like any other game.
I did CN with my GF today (2.8 IL) along with a DC (3.5 IL) and i still got hit like hell (between 20 and 50 on each hit), though i have 17k defense, and the DC used Astral shield, divine glow and other debuff encounters.
I think your video is misleading, you need the right group compo and a great coordination to achieve what you did...
And massive buffs? Sure we buffed eachother. But we couldn't buff extremely (and not even that extrem your team could have buffed you, @revan06100) because our stats were so low and we didn't have companions. Please remember that my dc is not a AC, so we couldn't spam AA. You are right, you need a good group (at least tank and heal, who can support great) and a great coordination.
People think they know what I'm trying to say but they don't. I don't want JUST hard dungeons, I don't say everyone can do it like we did it in this run. I want to show that this is the situation of the dungeons for players who know their classes and their team. I want a big variation of dungeons for everyone! Easy, fast dungeons but also hard, long dungeons. If you don't wanna run long dungeons or can't beat em it's okay and then you shouldn't do it. It's the problem with the mindset of players today. I can't remember people who complained that they couldn't do CN (I bet there were some of them but never noticed.) I did CN with my guild the first time I had around 14-15k, I never thought about CN when I was weaker. I didn't beat it? No problem, we tried it, we trained and someday we did it and it was an awesome feeling for all the people in my guild. Players today just want ,,fast-food content" - content, everyone can do with the tiniest amount of gear and teamwork. This is a big problem. In previous mods we had to chance to choose between easy, short dungeons and really hard dungeons but today we just have these seven dungeons. We need MORE dungeons and/or more difficulty on legendary/nightmare/whatever you want to call it mode on dungeons.
Based on my personal experience, the higher-end dungeons are not "too easy". They are, however, designed such that a group does NOT require the perfectly optimal buff stacking in order to win. Would you really want a dungeon that was so hard, the *only* way to win was, say, to bring a buff GF and an AC DC that would perfectly time their buffs? It would effectively channel every GF and every DC to have the exact same build and basically be clones of one another. Is this really what you want?
Now I don't claim to be a high-end player, I have only a 3.2k GWF. I will solo queue and use LFG for dungeons occasionally, I will do dungeons with my guild, which is not full of high-end players either. Occasionally I will do content with the legit channel. Here is my experience:
- I have never been in a group that killed Tiamat on the first round. Only a couple of times have I been a group that killed Tiamat on the second round. I have seen more fourth-round wins than second-round wins.
- I have never been in a group that killed Syndryth before she transformed.
- I have never been in a group that killed Orcus before the undead adventurer phase.
- Out of all the times I have been in Demogorgon, both normal and epic, I would estimate less than 10% of those attempts did the group deliberately not aim Goristro for a yellow portal, instead preferring to just burn him down. (And not all of those were successful.)
I think this experience is more representative of what the large majority of players actually feel, instead of the very high-end players on the forums complaining that it is all too easy because they only play with other high-end players. Out of all of the dungeons and raids that I have been in, I have interacted with a great many players. Were we *all* terrible rotten players because, say, we couldn't beat Tiamat in the first round? No, I think we are all just typical, average players.
Oh, and btw (I don't know how many times I wrote it in this thread): NO, I don't want dungeons being so hard that you can only do this with this buffs or debuffs. But I want dungeons where even good players need teamwork AND strategy. I wish we had the need to open the caskets in vt, to pull Goristro into the holes, to extinguish fire in eCC or something like this. But there is no point in doing this. I wish there was a dungeon where we need some guild boons, mount bonus or insignias. I wish we could need setboni. But there is nothing like this.
Specifically, as I wrote above, about 90% of the time I did a Demo run, the group DID aim Goristro for the portals. That happens. Just because that 10% of the time it wasn't necessary, doesn't mean that the dungeon is "too easy" as a general statement.
Seriously, solo queue for ELOL sometime. I am willing to bet that you will find a group that is stuck at the scorpions.
im the SW in this vid and i have the following insignia buffs:
3% power when my companion attacks (useless as i have no active companion)
recovery movement and so on when i use a artifact (useless as i have no artifact to use)
panther wich has no insigia buff
15% movementspeed
and heal when i proc lifesteal
i dont know what all the others have but these definitely made no difference in this run.
You cant denie the fact that theres no endcontent at the moment, If we run full equiped no boss lasts longer then a few seconds.
And think there should be at least 1 or 2 dungeons which are not doable without great teamwork and high level equip. There are enough easy dungeons in this game at least in my opinion,
@chemjeff great if you have a challenge everytime you que random but dont you think that the "high level" players also deserve to atleast have some kind of challange in this game?
Yes, I know. I did a lot of random runs. But you know what? I don't have to. Why should I do having trouble with people I don't know and get pissed of because they sometimes just act dumb when instead I can have fun with my guildies?
The way I read posts like yours is that you are offering the opportunity to learn how other teams play a dungeon as well as point out a suggestion for the Devs. Hopefully your video will help me to become a better player, so that when I pug, I don't drag down a team, or when I play with my guildies, I can offer suggestions that I have seen on the forums so that we don't wipe in the future. I know others have 'taken offense' at your post, but apparently it is a touchy subject to claim dungeons are too easy or too hard. I actually think most people that have responded to this post have the same opinion as what you are posting--keep the current dungeons but provide some that are more challenging. (be all things to all people--a bit difficult because of the tremendous spread in player ability and capability)
In your case (and @thefabricant and @defiantone99 and others who have commented on the ease of dungeons), harder dungeons would be beneficial because it isn't as fun if everything melts. I agree with your opinion that a larger option for degree of difficulty would be outstanding--and not only the difficulty, but the length of dungeon. Plenty of posts on this forum that have said the same thing. +1 to those posts.
That said, I tend to find my toons in the opposite side--dungeons are still difficult, and enjoyable. I am a casual player in a small guild of casual players, and most of the time we need to add a few solo people in order to do a 5 man dungeon. It really turns into a Pug run at that point. And yes, we tend to wipe more frequently, even though our 'iLevel' is more than sufficient for the dungeon. This past weekend we wiped at the Scorpions at least six times because of poor play, poor communication, lag, etc. It wasn't 'fun' in the sense that we kept dying, but it was actually much more enjoyable than the Kessel's run that we had just finished. In the Kessel's, we just grouped as many mobs as possible with little or no danger to our toons and managed to finish the skirmish fairly quickly. Not as much of a challenge, and not as much fun. So I understand what you are saying with regards to dungeons that at not a challenge.
My comment is not to argue that we shouldn't have more difficult dungeons--I agree with you that many players could benefit with a higher degree of dungeon difficulty. My comment is to encourage the Dev's to add that degree of difficulty but also to keep the lower levels for players of my caliber. Cuz I am just not that good
Congrats on the run and I hope that the new dungeon provides you with plenty of excitement. Good Luck.
The video is not misleading at all. It shows that having a good build and knowing how to use it in a team matters a lot more the ilvl. In stead of complaing, people should start picking up what you are doing. There is a lot of information easily availeble out there. And it does not take much to ask a few questions in the relevant class forums.
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If you do have a fairly high ilvl it does matter a lot, because you can stomp any content almost without thinking. It's not good for the game when end-game content becomes trivial for a player that doesn't understand his toon / his roll in a party just because the toon is decently geared.
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Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
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Hell bring in a "extreme" version of all dungeons where all mobs have 150% DR and 150% ArP or a suitable number.
But I bet if the RAD (or AD) earned Vs time spent playing the harder dungeons is not the same or better than the easy ones, then most of the ppl screaming for challenging content will still end up running the old easy, faster to earn RAD, stuff anyway.
We JUST want a tier of dungeons and content suitable for end-game. We DON'T want to take away your level 68 Malabog's Castle, your Valindra's "tank and spank" Tower, or your "epic" Skirmish of the Spider. Keep them in as is. What about a really difficult version of edemo or CN that dropped +5s 0.0002% of the time instead of 0.0001%?? What about 10k rough AD for a higher tier of dungeons and everything else stays the same? NO-ONE is proposing keeping new players from getting the gear they need. All we want is something to do once you get there.........
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/10067733-developer-blog:-storm-king's-thunder-features
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance
That is what will happen if you have some "optional" super-hard dungeon. No one will do it. The average players won't be able to do it, and the high-end players won't do it as it would be a waste of time compared to the easier ones.
We had the same thing back in the Mod 1/2/3 days. It was Epic Dread Vault. It was super-hard back then, and almost nobody did it because it didn't have good rewards.
Asking for some optional super-hard dungeon is just a waste of time on the devs' part, because it will be under-used.
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That whole meta would've been perfect if they put the same loot table as CN in eDV, but with perhaps a guaranteed T2.5 weapon drop, then that's exactly what I'd be after.
In module 6, back when DR was bugged and everyone was far weaker eGWD was a very good challenge. Unfortunately back then I wasn't strong enough to beat it, and also it didn't give rewards commensurate with its challenge. It gave the same rewards as all the other T2s, despite being significantly tougher than eTOS and a lot tougher than dragging the ECC boss onto the spikes too. Right now, however, eGWD doesn't provide any drops on par with other top tier content. It's also not at all a challenge for geared parties
Now, be honest. How many times have you done eGWD, as compared to, say, eTOS or CN?
Furthermore, suppose there was a new, harder dungeon, that was optional, that gave rewards that were the same or only marginally better than eGWD. Would you do this new dungeon, which might be very long and take hours, even for a good player such as yourself? Or would you do eGWD, which you know you can finish in 10 minutes? Sure you might do the new dungeon a few times, just for the sake of accomplishment. But when it comes to the effort/reward ratio, your time would be better spent in eGWD, collecting the rewards that are almost as good as the ones in the new dungeon.
The history of this game has demonstrated that players tend to be motivated by the rewards, rather than the challenge of the dungeon; and that players will tend to take the path of least resistance.
I don't want the devs to devote huge resources to content that only maybe 5% of the players can possibly take advantage of. If they are going to make super-hard dungeons, I would like them to be necessary for progression. The top 5% would be able to beat them right away, average players like myself would have to really struggle and work at it to be successful at it, but everyone eventually would have to go there and then beat the dungeon in order to make progress.