silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
every time you grind for one thing, it takes away from grinding for another.. that's the simple truth.
You want to spend most of your time doing heralds for RP? well darnt, you know AD has to be made, as well as boons to get and other things to run for gearing.
Its a little over the top, while RP was super cheap, you could at least get your artifacts reasonable upgraded cheaply , making for 1 less aspect to grind for or worry about too much.
This game is way to alt unfriendly IMO.. and it shouldn't be, the different classes should be a reason to play the game and should be encouraged and not as discouraged as it is.
If someone asked me to rate the ALT playable aspect of the game, I would rate it as poor. Its too harsh to get to even 80% max, and in other games, it was quite achievable.. sure you might miss some trinkets or some t2 armour pieces in other game, but the core of the gear was usually achievable and alot of times actives were based around 2 or 3 pieces out of 4-5 max.. making that you could skip some more grind, and still get the bonuses, just a couple of % off in terms of stats. But in terms of being able to run all content, you could, and usually at a high standard, especially if content wasnt just a easy hack and slash .. but took group efforts to finish.
If they leave quartermasters alone, I can see that helping out the market over the course of a couple months though.
I still contend, instead of just removing, removing, removing items, they should rethink their whole system, at the very least, make all RP BTA and remove cost of upgrading stuff by a significant margin.
The more you blather on the more it proves that you need to hang it up.
All it really proves is that you're fine with the status quo that's killing this game : \
I have a 17 man leadership army and it's the only way I can actually progress at all. The fact that this is basically required to gather RP at a reasonable rate is absolutely ridiculous. No matter how pleased you are with it that doesn't mean that it's actually a model that's good for the game.
The reality is that the rewards for running content are actually pretty decent. The problem is that the content is bland and could use more exciting rewards.
This only applies if you've been playing for ages. Anyone that's starting anew is waaaay behind and has months ahead of them stuck at low ilvls where they make little to no AD.
Reactions like yours are products of a dull journey. So many people are worried about how to progress their character because that is what the game has become.
Sorry to break it to you but character progression is the central motivation for anything in an MMO.
If you had rich, compelling content to work through, the journey wouldn't seem so bad and character progression wouldn't be at the forefront. There is nothing wrong with character progression as part of a game., but it can't be the only part .
It doesn't matter how compelling the content is if you have to run it 1000 times to get what you need from it.
Only way to fix this is for Cryptic to change its module release model to once or twice a year with some big, cool content. Fixing and tweaking along the way for maintenance patches.
This would be another nail in the coffin. They cannot do six months between content releases. They only really see increases in player population at beginning of each mod. They're reliant on that spike at the beginning of each mod and cannot afford to make it less frequent. What they need to do is make the game more accessible to new players and nothing in your suggestion would do that.
I suggested in another thread to kill two birds with one refining stone :P. 1. We like to have more meaningful drops and rewards from dungeons, right now it's pretty basic, some salvagable blue, a few rank 5s, some seals that you mostly don't need considering the number of dungeons people tend to do. Why not give modest sized packages of enchantments in dungeon chests, and/or have the bosses drop a whole bunch of them when they die? That keeps bots from getting at them, it makes dungeons more fun, and it stabilizes the market
Somehow out all of this, he @urabask came to a conclusion that I am pleased with the status quo.
Selective reading.
You need to go back and read your posts. You've implied that there's sufficient RP gained just from playing (which is an outright falsehood and you know it) and that failing that people should make leadership armies. When it comes to RP, leadership armies are the status quo. You've made it plenty clear that you've got no problem with the fact that the vast majority of RP that players generate is from leadership armies and you think that Cryptic needs to focus on other issues.
The problem with this is that you're assuming that a significant portion of players that start playing Neverwinter even stay long enough to create a leadership army. They don't. First of all a leadership army will cost $20 minimally. Or really it costs ~940,000 AD. The problem being that Cryptic's conversion rate is probably around 10% or less, so nine out of ten players will have to grind out that AD via dungeons. But then you run into another problem, there's a 3+ week grind to level 70 so most players have quit before they even get to the point where they can actually grind T1s and make AD at a reasonable rate. Then you're expecting them to reset tasks for 3+ months before they can even start generating RP (and again most players will quit before or as a result of this).
Basically everything about Leadership armies actively exclude new players and harms Cryptic's ability to retain new players. About the only thing that's worse for the game is the grind to 70.
Not to hijack this thread and maybe this is a dumb question, and I apologize if it is, but how do you make leadership armies when all AD was removed from Leadership or just about all? I was running Leadership for awhile and I never saw AD of any kind. What am I missing?
Not to hijack this thread and maybe this is a dumb question, and I apologize if it is, but how do you make leadership armies when all AD was removed from Leadership or just about all? I was running Leadership for awhile and I never saw AD of any kind. What am I missing?
People are using leadership armies to make RP instead.
edit: Oops. Just woke up and didn't see wildfirede's post.
"So let me get this straight... We were cruising along at Warp 7 when we heard a distress call and moved in to investigate. But now you're telling me it was just the Captain's opening hail and we are the ones who are stuck? How could we respond to something we hadn't even done yet...am I making any sense here?" - Tom Paris
The number of maxed-out players would correspond to the number of people with LS armies because the LS armies benefit only those players. There aren't too many out there. You say it's rare, but I don't think it's rare enough to not negatively impact the economy, or cryptic would not have nerfed the LS AD.
Here's the problem w/ that theory. If LS Armies were the problem, then how is it that NINE months after the LS nerf we are officially back up to 500 AD per Zen? And for the last 3 months we have been about 470 AD per Zen? And the trade value of AD to Zen NEVER got better than 370 to ONE on an average basis?
Your theory ignores that you HAVE to spend AD or Zen to build up a LS army to the point that it's actually going to do any good. Before the LS nerf, Adventurers cost 170k in the AH. NOW they're running about 25k. In comparison MY daily AD per toon averages about 3k, down from about 12k w/ Good LS.
So it's Actually CHEAPER to build up LS NOW. Of course, what's the point? There are NO AD opportunities in LS at the moment. Sure, you can make a little gold, or a couple of chests, but JUST LIKE BEFORE, this is all time gated and task gated (you can ONLY have a max of THREE of the SAME mish at any time)
Which is why people who HAMSTER and moan about LS and call it Botting just make me want to beat them like a red headed step child. LS "armies" were the only thing that made this game reasonable for a casual player like myself. But NOW it's all but impossible. SOME prices have been lowered, BUT take a look at some of the tasks in Jewelcrafting or the various Armor smithing skills. The ones that you can craft armor bonuses with HAVE NOT CHANGED THEIR AD COSTS. AT ALL. And I'm not aware of ANY price changes to Upgrading mounts or companions, for that matter.
And NOW AD to Zen is BACK where it was NINE months ago. Except that MY PERSONAL DAILY AVERAGE AD GAIN is a QUARTER of what it used to be.
SO, YEAH. Nerfing LS was a MASSIVE negative impact. For the individual, casual player.
And NOW AD to Zen is BACK where it was NINE months ago. Except that MY PERSONAL DAILY AVERAGE AD GAIN is a QUARTER of what it used to be.
AD to zen is where it is because they did a whole mod that encouraged people to buy 6k+ zen on mount unlocks at launch and the game is dying so there isn't as much zen entering the exchange. Now they've got a 50% off sale for the zen market in two weeks and it jumped again.
Which is why people who **** and moan about LS and call it Botting just make me want to beat them like a red headed step child. LS "armies" were the only thing that made this game reasonable for a casual player like myself. But NOW it's all but impossible. SOME prices have been lowered, BUT take a look at some of the tasks in Jewelcrafting or the various Armor smithing skills. The ones that you can craft armor bonuses with HAVE NOT CHANGED THEIR AD COSTS. AT ALL. And I'm not aware of ANY price changes to Upgrading mounts or companions, for that matter.
All they did was change it to running dungeons on multiple characters instead of an army. That was working fine until they pulled wards from VIP because that was keep costs in check along with botted RP.
with my equations if i have 20 alts, if they are all have maxed leadership, and you roughly get 12.5k zen a month, so i guess cyrptic are losing long term cash investments. wow, that is alot of ADs plus several months of exchanging for zens collected over the time, made those guys loaded and get anything for free. that why devs/market team had to stop those guys, now i understood the reason, those guys had several months headstart than anyone or newer players. i would get burnout just playing strictly for ADs, i just want to play the adventures and quests because i just want to feel that i am in the story, not for grinding. so i dont know if they were using scripts while they sleeps or away from keyboard so they dont get burnout or they share accounts in "sweat-shops" on rotations. i am only guessing.
C'mon folks - don't you know that part of the fun of this game is to figure out how to keep making AD after they "adjust" stuff? It's a game within a game - economic foreplay
I aim to misbehave
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
To me the overwhelming bigger issue, is why bother grinding your tail off, you get to the point that you realize how terrible the content they have given us is and the future looks really bleak, realistically , we may get 1 more new "something" in the next 6 months.
Its time for a drastic change in terms of slate of content .. a whole new slate, get rid of the past everything imo and start fresh. Raise level cap another ten levels and do it right this time.
I cant remember another mmo I played that just basically used all of its old content in the way neverwinter has.
My two cents to this topic would be : I have no problems with making gem coffers for the guild, in the way we have it now. That is fine, we ll adapt. We did adapt.
Most of us have professions maxed on more then 1 char. And it is working, slowly then before, but working. I will not complain about it, since that is Cryptic " new direction" of the game.
However what i do have a problem with, is the fact i can not get the stupid artifacts up , unless i buy freaking stacks for 35k / 40k ? I call HAMSTER. After years of getting the artifacts up, year after year, mod after mod, set after set, there is no more pillaging of nodes, collecting gems through dungeons or expecting drops of R5 / R4s , other RP is even worse in price and collecting them now is based on a period of time, waiting to get enough, in order to get something up... and even with dragon hoard ench and dragon runs it is taking a very long time to raise things.
After getting rid of the Lostmouth set, since they basically made an April joke of it.. Most of people went back to other sets, like Valindra or the new : " omg , we have to have it " Orcus set.
I just want to get that stupid Tiamat orb up to legendary without having to beg for RP. And yes i am ignoring the so called " new and improved " adventure seals , cos they freaking suck and i will not give 100 seals for 1 ench rank 5. *heck * no. Just like i will not pay 1000 zen for a coal ward or 100 zen for pres ward unless i grind it in game.
I have raised a lot of sets in my time. And this mod is proving as the most difficult in achieving something that should be so simple if you are playing this game.
So , yea, sorry for the fact it turned into a vent, but i could not help myself. I am sad. And i feel pathetic , that after years of playing this game i can not get one little set up , unless i spend my time playing the AH or grinding like a mindless bot.
* edited , since i do not wish to offend anyone *
Post edited by araneax on
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
edited May 2016
I think a simple look at friends list and channels and forums, will give you a overall of how players view this game at the moment.
Grinding.. too much of it. (AD , RP, SH HAMSTER) the balance isnt right with it. You shouldnt have to run content 1-5000 times (thats not a exaggeration.. ) Content.. Not enough , not quick enough, not challenging enough, not rewarding enough. (please no more campaign junk after this next work through.. give it 6 months or so)
People are leaving because clearly the balance of those two things are not correct. If it was correct, people would be playing.
urabask said: Great, they stopped the bots and now we're stuck with stacks of r5s at 35k+, lesser thaum/union/stability/power at 100k+ etc.
I don't get why there isn't a bigger stink. Basically we're letting Cryptic get away with the equivalent of removing AD from leadership and do nothing about it.
This is a temporary problem. If no one BUYS the stacks, they expire in 5 days. 2 weeks @ most & the prices drop.
urabask said: Great, they stopped the bots and now we're stuck with stacks of r5s at 35k+, lesser thaum/union/stability/power at 100k+ etc.
I don't get why there isn't a bigger stink. Basically we're letting Cryptic get away with the equivalent of removing AD from leadership and do nothing about it.
This is a temporary problem. If no one BUYS the stacks, they expire in 5 days. 2 weeks @ most & the prices drop.
Cryptic ran 2x enchants, prices drop ~9k a stack, they're up 2k from then and they still disappear off the AH. But sure, people will just magically stop buying the cheapest and most convenient form of RP.
Guess what the cheapest artifact of power is? Raven skull at 220k. So we're still looking at ~ 1 million AD to refine an artifact of power.
That's true. That's just about a week's worth of effort, though. Not counting leaderhip armies, just plain gaming at the 36K cap and using a VIP account.
I just want to get that stupid Tiamat orb up to legendary without having to beg for RP.
Do you know how feeder artifacts work?
Yes i do know how it works. It used to pay off, when the artifacts where not so expensive as they are now. I am what you would call a hamster. I collect stuff and it is really hard for me to let go of them. If i have them on mythical, it is even worse.
However i was stating the fact that even if you do have VIP and if you are right now, trying to get new artifact up and maybe, did not get rid of the LS , it started to be much harder then in any of the mods to get things up. Getting rid of gems did not help and it made things worse. Right now azure stack is 30k , simple training runestone rank 5, stack is 44 k , arcane 32 k. It is pure madness. Lesser union stones 61.8 k... how is this helping any of the new players get their stuff up ? Or old players raising new and improved artifacts every new mod? If we are talking about artifacts... Maybe if i use BPS For Tia orb it could work at least for now, since the price is low. 75 k each.. But some of the others are so expensive my head hurts.
I agree with urabask....horrible grind and little sense of progression once you´re at 2.5k IL (I feel stupid for playing 3 toons). I did hope the ridiculously high r5 price would settle/Cryptic would do something about that but will they? -.- And to make it worse...they combined painfully slow/grindy progression with a severe lack of incentives/rewards for that progression. There is NO PVE content whatsoever that is appropriate for 3k, 3.5k, let alone 4k+ toons. And PVP is a mess because of the huge gear gap, so unfortunately PVP as it is - for a lot of players- likely not a reason to advance toons, too. It´s a horrible strategy that -as far as I can see- is bound to make the game fail. But there won´t be IL brackets in PVP and also no 3k or 3.5k IL dungeons unless they make refinement/progression in general easier. The reasons for this become obvious if you think about it for a minute. But if they DID make it easier and implemented content to make it worthwhile, it´s likely that this would incite players to stay (even old ones to come back)...you don´t want to leave the game if you haven´t yet seen the most awesome top-end content yet so you´d either play hard to get there ...or have a good reason to pay money to speed up the process. The most fun in this game I had when doing dungeons with pug groups that actually had the appropriate IL/power for those dungeons and didn´t consist of players rage-quitting after playing nonsensically and then dying because they were most likely used to some uber-toons being around who basically cleared the dungeon for them without the necessity for team-play at all. Groups that instead communicated and made some effort at teamwork. So if 3k+ or 3.5k+IL toons had challenging, fun and rewarding content this would create a ton of fun for those players and they´d most likely haunt content that is way to easy for them far less frequently thus improving the overall gaming experience for low-geared toons, too. But the (increasing) pain of refining artifact gear and artifacts without there being any reward (more challenging dungeons or nice PVP-arena) leaves you with just progression for progressions sake.
Comments
You'd basically have to have your guild running them every hour or you're practically living in WoD.
You want to spend most of your time doing heralds for RP? well darnt, you know AD has to be made, as well as boons to get and other things to run for gearing.
Its a little over the top, while RP was super cheap, you could at least get your artifacts reasonable upgraded cheaply , making for 1 less aspect to grind for or worry about too much.
This game is way to alt unfriendly IMO.. and it shouldn't be, the different classes should be a reason to play the game and should be encouraged and not as discouraged as it is.
If someone asked me to rate the ALT playable aspect of the game, I would rate it as poor. Its too harsh to get to even 80% max, and in other games, it was quite achievable.. sure you might miss some trinkets or some t2 armour pieces in other game, but the core of the gear was usually achievable and alot of times actives were based around 2 or 3 pieces out of 4-5 max.. making that you could skip some more grind, and still get the bonuses, just a couple of % off in terms of stats. But in terms of being able to run all content, you could, and usually at a high standard, especially if content wasnt just a easy hack and slash .. but took group efforts to finish.
If they leave quartermasters alone, I can see that helping out the market over the course of a couple months though.
I still contend, instead of just removing, removing, removing items, they should rethink their whole system, at the very least, make all RP BTA and remove cost of upgrading stuff by a significant margin.
I have a 17 man leadership army and it's the only way I can actually progress at all. The fact that this is basically required to gather RP at a reasonable rate is absolutely ridiculous. No matter how pleased you are with it that doesn't mean that it's actually a model that's good for the game. This only applies if you've been playing for ages. Anyone that's starting anew is waaaay behind and has months ahead of them stuck at low ilvls where they make little to no AD. Sorry to break it to you but character progression is the central motivation for anything in an MMO. It doesn't matter how compelling the content is if you have to run it 1000 times to get what you need from it. This would be another nail in the coffin. They cannot do six months between content releases. They only really see increases in player population at beginning of each mod. They're reliant on that spike at the beginning of each mod and cannot afford to make it less frequent. What they need to do is make the game more accessible to new players and nothing in your suggestion would do that.
The problem with this is that you're assuming that a significant portion of players that start playing Neverwinter even stay long enough to create a leadership army. They don't. First of all a leadership army will cost $20 minimally. Or really it costs ~940,000 AD. The problem being that Cryptic's conversion rate is probably around 10% or less, so nine out of ten players will have to grind out that AD via dungeons. But then you run into another problem, there's a 3+ week grind to level 70 so most players have quit before they even get to the point where they can actually grind T1s and make AD at a reasonable rate. Then you're expecting them to reset tasks for 3+ months before they can even start generating RP (and again most players will quit before or as a result of this).
Basically everything about Leadership armies actively exclude new players and harms Cryptic's ability to retain new players. About the only thing that's worse for the game is the grind to 70.
zhentarim-warlock-companion
Pure -> Transcendent Plague Fire weapon enchantment giving 80damge/20 seconds for 500k+ AD is a joke.
plague-fire-weapon-enchant-r11-vs-r12
aka lesser and minor resonance stones thaumaturgic and r4r5 from boxes
same as before but its rp and not ad now
zhentarim-warlock-companion
Pure -> Transcendent Plague Fire weapon enchantment giving 80damge/20 seconds for 500k+ AD is a joke.
plague-fire-weapon-enchant-r11-vs-r12
edit: Oops. Just woke up and didn't see wildfirede's post.
Your theory ignores that you HAVE to spend AD or Zen to build up a LS army to the point that it's actually going to do any good. Before the LS nerf, Adventurers cost 170k in the AH. NOW they're running about 25k. In comparison MY daily AD per toon averages about 3k, down from about 12k w/ Good LS.
So it's Actually CHEAPER to build up LS NOW. Of course, what's the point? There are NO AD opportunities in LS at the moment. Sure, you can make a little gold, or a couple of chests, but JUST LIKE BEFORE, this is all time gated and task gated (you can ONLY have a max of THREE of the SAME mish at any time)
Which is why people who HAMSTER and moan about LS and call it Botting just make me want to beat them like a red headed step child. LS "armies" were the only thing that made this game reasonable for a casual player like myself. But NOW it's all but impossible. SOME prices have been lowered, BUT take a look at some of the tasks in Jewelcrafting or the various Armor smithing skills. The ones that you can craft armor bonuses with HAVE NOT CHANGED THEIR AD COSTS. AT ALL. And I'm not aware of ANY price changes to Upgrading mounts or companions, for that matter.
And NOW AD to Zen is BACK where it was NINE months ago. Except that MY PERSONAL DAILY AVERAGE AD GAIN is a QUARTER of what it used to be.
SO, YEAH. Nerfing LS was a MASSIVE negative impact. For the individual, casual player.
wow, that is alot of ADs plus several months of exchanging for zens collected over the time, made those guys loaded and get anything for free.
that why devs/market team had to stop those guys, now i understood the reason, those guys had several months headstart than anyone or newer players.
i would get burnout just playing strictly for ADs, i just want to play the adventures and quests because i just want to feel that i am in the story, not for grinding.
so i dont know if they were using scripts while they sleeps or away from keyboard so they dont get burnout or they share accounts in "sweat-shops" on rotations. i am only guessing.
Its time for a drastic change in terms of slate of content .. a whole new slate, get rid of the past everything imo and start fresh. Raise level cap another ten levels and do it right this time.
I cant remember another mmo I played that just basically used all of its old content in the way neverwinter has.
I have no problems with making gem coffers for the guild, in the way we have it now.
That is fine, we ll adapt. We did adapt.
Most of us have professions maxed on more then 1 char. And it is working, slowly then before, but working.
I will not complain about it, since that is Cryptic " new direction" of the game.
However what i do have a problem with, is the fact i can not get the stupid artifacts up , unless i buy freaking stacks for 35k / 40k ?
I call HAMSTER.
After years of getting the artifacts up, year after year, mod after mod, set after set, there is no more pillaging of nodes, collecting gems through dungeons or expecting drops of R5 / R4s , other RP is even worse in price and collecting them now is based on a period of time, waiting to get enough, in order to get something up... and even with dragon hoard ench and dragon runs it is taking a very long time to raise things.
After getting rid of the Lostmouth set, since they basically made an April joke of it..
Most of people went back to other sets, like Valindra or the new : " omg , we have to have it " Orcus set.
I just want to get that stupid Tiamat orb up to legendary without having to beg for RP.
And yes i am ignoring the so called " new and improved " adventure seals , cos they freaking suck and i will not give 100 seals for 1 ench rank 5. *heck * no.
Just like i will not pay 1000 zen for a coal ward or 100 zen for pres ward unless i grind it in game.
I have raised a lot of sets in my time. And this mod is proving as the most difficult in achieving something that should be so simple if you are playing this game.
So , yea, sorry for the fact it turned into a vent, but i could not help myself. I am sad. And i feel pathetic , that after years of playing this game i can not get one little set up , unless i spend my time playing the AH or grinding like a mindless bot.
* edited , since i do not wish to offend anyone *
Grinding.. too much of it. (AD , RP, SH HAMSTER) the balance isnt right with it. You shouldnt have to run content 1-5000 times (thats not a exaggeration.. )
Content.. Not enough , not quick enough, not challenging enough, not rewarding enough. (please no more campaign junk after this next work through.. give it 6 months or so)
People are leaving because clearly the balance of those two things are not correct. If it was correct, people would be playing.
Great, they stopped the bots and now we're stuck with stacks of r5s at 35k+, lesser thaum/union/stability/power at 100k+ etc.
I don't get why there isn't a bigger stink. Basically we're letting Cryptic get away with the equivalent of removing AD from leadership and do nothing about it.
This is a temporary problem. If no one BUYS the stacks, they expire in 5 days. 2 weeks @ most & the prices drop.
It used to pay off, when the artifacts where not so expensive as they are now.
I am what you would call a hamster.
I collect stuff and it is really hard for me to let go of them. If i have them on mythical, it is even worse.
However i was stating the fact that even if you do have VIP and if you are right now, trying to get new artifact up and maybe, did not get rid of the LS , it started to be much harder then in any of the mods to get things up. Getting rid of gems did not help and it made things worse. Right now azure stack is 30k , simple training runestone rank 5, stack is 44 k , arcane 32 k. It is pure madness. Lesser union stones 61.8 k... how is this helping any of the new players get their stuff up ? Or old players raising new and improved artifacts every new mod?
If we are talking about artifacts...
Maybe if i use BPS For Tia orb it could work at least for now, since the price is low. 75 k each..
But some of the others are so expensive my head hurts.
It´s a horrible strategy that -as far as I can see- is bound to make the game fail. But there won´t be IL brackets in PVP and also no 3k or 3.5k IL dungeons unless they make refinement/progression in general easier. The reasons for this become obvious if you think about it for a minute.
But if they DID make it easier and implemented content to make it worthwhile, it´s likely that this would incite players to stay (even old ones to come back)...you don´t want to leave the game if you haven´t yet seen the most awesome top-end content yet so you´d either play hard to get there ...or have a good reason to pay money to speed up the process.
The most fun in this game I had when doing dungeons with pug groups that actually had the appropriate IL/power for those dungeons and didn´t consist of players rage-quitting after playing nonsensically and then dying because they were most likely used to some uber-toons being around who basically cleared the dungeon for them without the necessity for team-play at all. Groups that instead communicated and made some effort at teamwork. So if 3k+ or 3.5k+IL toons had challenging, fun and rewarding content this would create a ton of fun for those players and they´d most likely haunt content that is way to easy for them far less frequently thus improving the overall gaming experience for low-geared toons, too.
But the (increasing) pain of refining artifact gear and artifacts without there being any reward (more challenging dungeons or nice PVP-arena) leaves you with just progression for progressions sake.