lantern22Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,111Arc User
Hardest Hitting doesn't mean highest DPS. There is a lot of talk about how GF's are dominating but its not something I am seeing
I have a 3.2K GF IV Tact and a 3.1K CW SS Ren - neither are the DPS tree of their classes, they are support players.
The CW does a lot more DPS than the GF, a lot.
Sure the GF using Anvil of Doom can hit harder than the CW in a single hit (highest I have got is 330K when soloing strong hold HE's, but when playing in parties the highest hit is horrible) to get a decent hit I need the following to occur:
It needs to crit - my tank specced GF has a crit chance of under 20% and I need to use the following buffs / debuffs
- Mark the target - ITF - Villians menace - Wheel of Elements Fire - max out Shield Warriors Wrath - tide of iron - have the mobs health less than 40% for the 2x damage
that's a pain in the @rse to get all those things to line up and with the crappy crit chance it happens very infrequently
Meanwhile the CW hits regularly in the 200K+ range with ice knife all the time. All you need to do is use a rotation of COI, IT then SS (mobs are frozen) then Ice knife with chilling presence slotted. Easy as when the base crit chance is around 80% . . . Whilst the GF is layering up buffs etc. for one big hit on a single mob, the CW has cleared the pack and is on the next one
Of the GF buffs above - ITF, tide of iron and marked target all affect other party members
My GF's hardest hitting Encounter is Anvil of Doom - 18K base max, 36K (when mob is below 40%) cooldown of 12ish secs
My CW's hardest hitting Encounter is Disintegrate - 85K max base - cool down of 6ish secs
Fair enough, its a tank/buff specced GF so maybe all this becomes irrelevant and a DPS specced GF would have much higher power and crit chance and do more damage , but if they are wanting to use ITF (without another GF buffing them), then they need to stack defence and that takes away from the other offensive stats. But would the buff/tank Vs DPS build difference make up for 1/2 the base damage and 2x cooldown ???
Surely there are other buffs / interactions in play here
Like I said, its not aligning with my experiences in the game and it definitely doesn't apply to the majority of GF's out there
Me2, not one top GF till now....but i saw high DPS CW's despite the writings some threads ago, asking for buffs. Hunter, CW, GWF, TR, Warlock...all of them can do very good on single target , maybe a pure PVE focussed GWF will take the win, but honestly I am not sure about that. CW/Hunter/GWF do huge aoe on top. TR, warlock normally can´t deal that numbers in short time, except he runs ahead 24/7. Warlock imho is doing ok, but is not the class I would call the best dps, since he relies on bugs and if you ask for the class wich will clear a dungeon solo the fastest I would say GWF maybe CW at second place
show me the same gf otudps everyone to every dungeon and then i will believe you. IN SO MANY stacked buffs debuffs like demogorgon everything can happen. AND still waiting those monsters gf to see them in action like a cn run for example.
http://imgur.com/a/asiHr Specially for you, 50 paingiver charts from my personal collection. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7LVup_8s3Q And a CN run, sadly it's only a duo run, full party CN is too easy and boring to record. (You can also check some videos of GF soloing dungeons in my signature, if you want of course )
when you dealing damage you have 5% chance to strike again at least 50% of your weapon damage rank 2 +12 % rank 3 +12 %rank 4 + 12 %. that is the steel blitz tooltip so explain how that low propability also is a weapon damage affected from debuffs only (or and buffs ? who knows) make that big difference?
I thought exactly the same when I first heard about CS + Blitz combo, but after 2 weeks of testing it in various instances I can definitely say that it makes a HUGE difference.
O.O Thank you for all the feedback everyone, a lot of good opinions and points that I don't think I'm experienced enough to even discuss with you guys, so I'll leave you to it
&Just so people stop saying it, we're only competitive amongst ourselves, if we're getting gold all the time, or running dungeons really easily then the only way to have fun through that is trying to best each other....
But from everything I've read..
I want to pick either a TR, HR or SW all full dps speccd
TR:
Pro - Seems fun, I enjoy the class & most mechanics are great once you understand them. High dps & I can keep my Vorpal
Con - The duplicate class in the party problem & think I would have a hard time playing with bad pugs
SW (Full dps, Fury build):
Pro - Really really enjoy this class (apart from 60-70 -_-), and I've seen crazy numbers from high ranking sw's Also love the amount of numbers on screen with TT.
Con - Could be patched/fixed/nerfed at anytime.
HR (Full dps Trapper):
Pro - My first dps class & the only one where I've been outdps'ing higher il's (could just be their builds) definitely do like this guy and if I get a dread enchant....
Con - I HATE running out of charges which seems to happen too often, probably won't be much of a problem once I'm stronger but I doubt I'll enjoy myself getting to that stage. Not too fond of the shift either.
I highly recommend that you don't waste your time with sw. Currently it's very bad class outside of party buffs. Or if you decide to play pvp, it's gonna be really tough class to play.
Oh, is the SW that bad? I've been following Daigotsu (Kolat) and Fernu and they seem to do really well with a Soulbinder Fury setup....But it looks like A LOT of effort just to reach the same numbers as everyone else. But I like a challenge...
i have 4k sw, but class is so bad that i decided to move my enchants to my alt. As said damage is great when you are in buff party, but that's only good thing i can say about sw. I recommend to wait for promised sw fix (over a year ago), currently you won't find many (if any) happy sw player.
my GF is speed demon "group buffer" Into the Fray made the team hit more and faster for spell durations and primarly use Dark enchants to get GF out of web and root effects quicker.
it really help the team to run off and away from nasty red ring effects.
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santralafaxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,896Arc User
Depends on content run. In ETOS my GWF (or possibly another) regularly get paingiver (post-nerfs), though SWs take it from time to time. Orcus swats me down nearly every time, however, and others overtake me completing the boss. As examples. Had a CW steal my thunder in an ETOS the other day, however....
I'm not overly concerned about BEING paingiver, but I do like to watch the numbers.
I haven't done Tiamat or EDemo lately, so can't say there.
I love how every1 makes GF top dps in mod9 but it still hard to find GF in game, in every mode when there was a OP DPS class 50%+ were playing it. Now every1 says GF its the highest DPS in game but i dont see them playing GF... strange.
the top dps class depends on play style and what we take in consideration, if its paingiver board it changes from a dungeon with alot of trash or just 1 boss. same if u have a dc/gf buffing or not.
Just play the game get better try to improve your build/gear/play style and u end up on top of paingiver sooner or later.
if its just for showoff do a pug run record it and at the end say "I did more dmg than every1 else combined". and be happy..lol
Oh wow, I think I'm just going to leave my sw then... So Hr vs Tr.. Good point, I regularly get paingiver and it's not that great, ESPECIALLY with pugs..Kind of boring
Going against what I said, I may just make a DC...Could be more fun watching my friends fighting to get to the top of paingiver lol Any build/guide recommendations for a DC? I'd prefer to heal more than buff/debuff but either's cool
It isn´t worth to discuss because it´s quite obvious, but yes, again, it is a problem if a tank has the highest burst in PVP...in case anyone cares about PVP atm. Regarding PVE, I really don´t care who takes the crown, take it, eat it or pin it on your wall All in all , play the class you enjoy, and if joy is the measure I also would not recommend to play warlock, not in PVP and not in PVE, there are classes wich are quite more rewarding atm.
Yes, I am soulbinder fury. Yes, soulbinder fury is working mostly around buff-buggy murderous flames. But not only.
Yes, soulbinder fury can do high dps without buff-buggy murderous flames. Soul scorch is the real king there. Top? Probably not. At least not without knowing how to play class and it's tricky mechanics. You will top charts with other characters more sooner and easier than with SW.
As long as this game requires 0 strategy and 0 team-work, everyone will be hyper-focused (and sensitive) on who's doing what DPS, even if the outcomes are highly related to bugs and non-WIA skills/feats/enchantments.
http://imgur.com/a/asiHr Specially for you, 50 paingiver charts from my personal collection. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7LVup_8s3Q And a CN run, sadly it's only a duo run, full party CN is too easy and boring to record. (You can also check some videos of GF soloing dungeons in my signature, if you want of course )
wow specially for me and the other guys, that proves what? other than u pritscreen every time u get paingiver board? i have paingiver title also on my GF iam paingiver in most pug runs, i have even killed bosses alone after every1 dies and so on. when i run with my guild (ppl at my iLv i can tell u gf doesnt even have time to do that much dmg cuz since we are slow class when u get there there nothing to hit.
but i give u credit to print screen compile and post all those top paingiver just to brag.
Now i dont know why you have to attack me , when i am not your enemy. If you dont care about the TOP DPS, it means that it shouldn't bother you if the DEVS will goin to tonne down the guardian fighter.
Maybe that's because this is getting dragged into another Nerf the GF discussion and that has the likelihood of affecting the vast majority of GF's in a negative way . . . . . and funnily enough we aren't super excited about it
some of GFs that do not care about class balance just throw that poor excuse in these threads
Are you talking about PvP or PvE? GF's are definitely not creating balance issues with DPS in PvE unless your referring to them buffing the DPS classes too much. There seems to be a few PvP'ers with their noses out of joint that are dragging class balancing issues in PvP into Neverwinter in general (i.e. PvE)
iit goes without sayin'they need to be tonned down
this is your opinion, not all of us agree
With the amount of damage that is coming out DPS classes - GF's need the DPS we have at the moment to hold aggro. In CN, for example, my GF is forced to run Enhanced Mark and Enforced threat just to hold aggro, KV and ITF is expected from everyone so that leaves no DPS options. Tank specced GF's don't need there DPS gimped anymore thank you.
Finally, if this is such a problem in PvE, why is it that 9 out of 10 players have never seen a GF with better than average DPS?
another thread that soon as DPS is mentioned, it degrades into a nerf the GF fest.
wow specially for me and the other guys, that proves what? other than u pritscreen every time u get paingiver board? i have paingiver title also on my GF iam paingiver in most pug runs, i have even killed bosses alone after every1 dies and so on. when i run with my guild (ppl at my iLv i can tell u gf doesnt even have time to do that much dmg cuz since we are slow class when u get there there nothing to hit.
but i give u credit to print screen compile and post all those top paingiver just to brag.
This is not about bragging, but to share data. If you think, that his numbers are from PuG runs with bad players, you are wrong. We are in the same guild and while most of our members are PvP speced, some are BIS PvE players, playing their chars since alpha or beta, tuning them up time after time with the help of ATC, friends, preview or the forums.
I have seen him top paingiver in SH dragon runs, when I ran with my CW. Sure, I run rene for the buffs while a traum could get some more personal dps and I used HV set for the debuffs, but we had 4k+ PvE GWFs, CWs etc. who did less dmg then he did.
I think one of the reasons you dont see many dps GFs is, that they are quite useless without really good gear. I did some runs with a PvE dps GF and they are a pain in the HAMSTER. With low IL he was not able to hold aggro against high dps players and died a lot without significant dmg. Now he deals decent dmg, but by using enhanced mark, knights challenge or tab he grabs aggro and dies or kills other party members (bc of the aggro shift). To elaborate, I ran with my 3k tactican GF, using enhanced mark and all the other goodies, to hold aggro. The thing is, with similar IL, I use ITF and KV and I have to tank while he can deal dmg using 3 encounters without blocking the boss.
I can believe, that BIS or well geared DPS GFs can deal high dps while tanking or be a good dps, if another tank is around. Until then, you will have above mentioned problems. Furthermore many GFs with decent gear prefer high def for ITF to personal dps.
The moment I started my actual mainclass I did not believe it will perform any good anytime..... but the class proved me wrong because I leveled up to 70, run a pure damagespec with damage artifacts, a pVorp and a near maxed companion and so I got the paingivercrown.
There is enough prove not only in this thread, showing that a GF can do good in PVE. Why can´t some people just stop denying it? This is not a discussion about one class, so please to the guys with blue gear and a lesser vorpal and maybe 3 lesser bondings...look 3 lines above what I wrote and in case you want to be a damagedealer go for it.
Comments
I have a 3.2K GF IV Tact and a 3.1K CW SS Ren - neither are the DPS tree of their classes, they are support players.
The CW does a lot more DPS than the GF, a lot.
Sure the GF using Anvil of Doom can hit harder than the CW in a single hit (highest I have got is 330K when soloing strong hold HE's, but when playing in parties the highest hit is horrible) to get a decent hit I need the following to occur:
It needs to crit - my tank specced GF has a crit chance of under 20% and I need to use the following buffs / debuffs
- Mark the target
- ITF
- Villians menace
- Wheel of Elements Fire
- max out Shield Warriors Wrath
- tide of iron
- have the mobs health less than 40% for the 2x damage
that's a pain in the @rse to get all those things to line up and with the crappy crit chance it happens very infrequently
Meanwhile the CW hits regularly in the 200K+ range with ice knife all the time. All you need to do is use a rotation of COI, IT then SS (mobs are frozen) then Ice knife with chilling presence slotted. Easy as when the base crit chance is around 80% . . . Whilst the GF is layering up buffs etc. for one big hit on a single mob, the CW has cleared the pack and is on the next one
Of the GF buffs above - ITF, tide of iron and marked target all affect other party members
My GF's hardest hitting Encounter is Anvil of Doom - 18K base max, 36K (when mob is below 40%) cooldown of 12ish secs
My CW's hardest hitting Encounter is Disintegrate - 85K max base - cool down of 6ish secs
Fair enough, its a tank/buff specced GF so maybe all this becomes irrelevant and a DPS specced GF would have much higher power and crit chance and do more damage , but if they are wanting to use ITF (without another GF buffing them), then they need to stack defence and that takes away from the other offensive stats. But would the buff/tank Vs DPS build difference make up for 1/2 the base damage and 2x cooldown ???
Surely there are other buffs / interactions in play here
Like I said, its not aligning with my experiences in the game and it definitely doesn't apply to the majority of GF's out there
Hunter, CW, GWF, TR, Warlock...all of them can do very good on single target , maybe a pure PVE focussed GWF will take the win, but honestly I am not sure about that.
CW/Hunter/GWF do huge aoe on top. TR, warlock normally can´t deal that numbers in short time, except he runs ahead 24/7.
Warlock imho is doing ok, but is not the class I would call the best dps, since he relies on bugs and if you ask for the class wich will clear a dungeon solo the fastest I would say GWF maybe CW at second place
Specially for you, 50 paingiver charts from my personal collection.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7LVup_8s3Q
And a CN run, sadly it's only a duo run, full party CN is too easy and boring to record.
(You can also check some videos of GF soloing dungeons in my signature, if you want of course
I thought exactly the same when I first heard about CS + Blitz combo, but after 2 weeks of testing it in various instances I can definitely say that it makes a HUGE difference.
Here's an exemplary ACT of a Tiamat run from my early CS+Blitz tests:
http://imgur.com/a/AbrO1
&Just so people stop saying it, we're only competitive amongst ourselves, if we're getting gold all the time, or running dungeons really easily then the only way to have fun through that is trying to best each other....
But from everything I've read..
I want to pick either a TR, HR or SW all full dps speccd
TR:
Pro - Seems fun, I enjoy the class & most mechanics are great once you understand them. High dps & I can keep my Vorpal
Con - The duplicate class in the party problem & think I would have a hard time playing with bad pugs
SW (Full dps, Fury build):
Pro - Really really enjoy this class (apart from 60-70 -_-), and I've seen crazy numbers from high ranking sw's
Also love the amount of numbers on screen with TT.
Con - Could be patched/fixed/nerfed at anytime.
HR (Full dps Trapper):
Pro - My first dps class & the only one where I've been outdps'ing higher il's (could just be their builds) definitely do like this guy and if I get a dread enchant....
Con - I HATE running out of charges which seems to happen too often, probably won't be much of a problem once I'm stronger but I doubt I'll enjoy myself getting to that stage.
Not too fond of the shift either.
A dps GF sounds really interesting though xD
But I like a challenge...
I recommend to wait for promised sw fix (over a year ago), currently you won't find many (if any) happy sw player.
it really help the team to run off and away from nasty red ring effects.
I'm not overly concerned about BEING paingiver, but I do like to watch the numbers.
I haven't done Tiamat or EDemo lately, so can't say there.
the top dps class depends on play style and what we take in consideration, if its paingiver board it changes from a dungeon with alot of trash or just 1 boss. same if u have a dc/gf buffing or not.
Just play the game get better try to improve your build/gear/play style and u end up on top of paingiver sooner or later.
if its just for showoff do a pug run record it and at the end say "I did more dmg than every1 else combined". and be happy..lol
So Hr vs Tr..
Good point, I regularly get paingiver and it's not that great, ESPECIALLY with pugs..Kind of boring
Going against what I said, I may just make a DC...Could be more fun watching my friends fighting to get to the top of paingiver lol
Any build/guide recommendations for a DC? I'd prefer to heal more than buff/debuff but either's cool
The steel blitz thing is so bugged though. I did open up a bugs case for it. Steel Blitz proced more then CS did with me standing still.
http://forum.arcgames.com/neverwinter/discussion/1216595/gf-commanders-strike-is-constantly-procing-steel-blitz-with-other-players-attacks
I'd rather see things like this and upcapped ITF fixed then ignorantly applying blanket nerfs to the GF and pushing us back to the days of mod 4.
Regarding PVE, I really don´t care who takes the crown, take it, eat it or pin it on your wall
All in all , play the class you enjoy, and if joy is the measure I also would not recommend to play warlock, not in PVP and not in PVE, there are classes wich are quite more rewarding atm.
Yes, soulbinder fury is working mostly around buff-buggy murderous flames. But not only.
Yes, soulbinder fury can do high dps without buff-buggy murderous flames. Soul scorch is the real king there.
Top? Probably not. At least not without knowing how to play class and it's tricky mechanics. You will top charts with other characters more sooner and easier than with SW.
Is it enjoyable? Hell yes.
Mod 10:
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Killing Flames deals 16636893 (1009292) Fire Damage to Ethraniev Marrowslake.
Mod 9:
[Combat (Self)] Your Murderous Flames deals 376274433 (18876929) Fire Damage to Red Tiamat Head.
Sad, This is all that's left.
As long as this game requires 0 strategy and 0 team-work, everyone will be hyper-focused (and sensitive) on who's doing what DPS, even if the outcomes are highly related to bugs and non-WIA skills/feats/enchantments.
when i run with my guild (ppl at my iLv i can tell u gf doesnt even have time to do that much dmg cuz since we are slow class when u get there there nothing to hit.
but i give u credit to print screen compile and post all those top paingiver just to brag.
Are you talking about PvP or PvE? GF's are definitely not creating balance issues with DPS in PvE unless your referring to them buffing the DPS classes too much. There seems to be a few PvP'ers with their noses out of joint that are dragging class balancing issues in PvP into Neverwinter in general (i.e. PvE) this is your opinion, not all of us agree
With the amount of damage that is coming out DPS classes - GF's need the DPS we have at the moment to hold aggro. In CN, for example, my GF is forced to run Enhanced Mark and Enforced threat just to hold aggro, KV and ITF is expected from everyone so that leaves no DPS options. Tank specced GF's don't need there DPS gimped anymore thank you.
Finally, if this is such a problem in PvE, why is it that 9 out of 10 players have never seen a GF with better than average DPS?
another thread that soon as DPS is mentioned, it degrades into a nerf the GF fest.
I have seen him top paingiver in SH dragon runs, when I ran with my CW. Sure, I run rene for the buffs while a traum could get some more personal dps and I used HV set for the debuffs, but we had 4k+ PvE GWFs, CWs etc. who did less dmg then he did.
I think one of the reasons you dont see many dps GFs is, that they are quite useless without really good gear. I did some runs with a PvE dps GF and they are a pain in the HAMSTER. With low IL he was not able to hold aggro against high dps players and died a lot without significant dmg. Now he deals decent dmg, but by using enhanced mark, knights challenge or tab he grabs aggro and dies or kills other party members (bc of the aggro shift). To elaborate, I ran with my 3k tactican GF, using enhanced mark and all the other goodies, to hold aggro. The thing is, with similar IL, I use ITF and KV and I have to tank while he can deal dmg using 3 encounters without blocking the boss.
I can believe, that BIS or well geared DPS GFs can deal high dps while tanking or be a good dps, if another tank is around. Until then, you will have above mentioned problems. Furthermore many GFs with decent gear prefer high def for ITF to personal dps.
There is enough prove not only in this thread, showing that a GF can do good in PVE. Why can´t some people just stop denying it? This is not a discussion about one class, so please to the guys with blue gear and a lesser vorpal and maybe 3 lesser bondings...look 3 lines above what I wrote and in case you want to be a damagedealer go for it.
Mod 10:
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Killing Flames deals 16636893 (1009292) Fire Damage to Ethraniev Marrowslake.
Mod 9:
[Combat (Self)] Your Murderous Flames deals 376274433 (18876929) Fire Damage to Red Tiamat Head.