the sooner you will realize that GF class has some broken aspects of it if it can outdps the DPS specced GWF whilst hitting like a turtle.
A GF can out DPS a DPS specced GWF when the battles last as long as the GF's buffs last. In PvP and PvE. GWF hitting like a turtle? A little overly dramatic maybe? I see GWFs win more paingivers then most DPS classes combined and with ILs much lower. They're hardly a gimped class and can perform amazingly with no skill and mediocre gear at best.
Like I said before, lets wait for the bonding stone nerf, then make some judgements.
Longer battles will let CWs build up stacks of arcane and GWF of destroyer and last longer then the 10 seconds a GF needs to hit Knight's Challenge/Commander's Strike/Anvil of Doom on a Tiamat head or edemo before the DPS-herd runs off to the next 9 second fight.
Fast, burst encounters are inflating GF DPS numbers and denting paingiver-focused egos. I think the fights lasting longer will help correct the curve.
- You could've just connect 2+2 and see that I wrote about GF hitting like a turtle. - CW building up stacks of arcane in the longer battles. WHAT?
You actually made me confused. GJ.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
thats exactly what i am doing, when i que for castle never, i just rush in and clear everything i can by the time the GF loads the map, i am already at ORCUS keepin my DPS on TOP... theres no way i am goin to loose to a GF in damage.
Thats exactly what everbody does when an DPS specced GF is in grp. Like i said: Easy...
I really don't mind if some class does like 30% more damage than other class. But every class should have dps option to do do top dps class damage -30%. Maybe they should buff OP dps tree, they surely deserve it.
For most of the game's history, CW was top DPS. Mod 4 and 5 it was SW. Most people have no problem with one DPS class being a tad higher than others. It is when a tank class has higher DPS than DPS classes and SW does double of everyone else due to it being broken that we have a problem. Throw on top the level 60 MC set and SW is a god. These are game-breaking issues and are turning players away.
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
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ionvnegativoMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 119Arc User
edited May 2016
GUARDIAN of EASY.....MUST end poor poor GFs they deal no damage WE HAVE TO BUFF THEM so they can be accepted in pve...... being a GF must be so painful, you cant kill even a powrie GF class lacks of useful powers they need a "DC circle" to deal real damage....without DC mama GF just hit like a noodle and their HP bar is drained even with the shield up.......is time to give some love to this class so they can finally solo'ed any lvl 60 pve map.
1000 000 no crit single hit, is not enough already???
mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
edited May 2016
CRYPTIc logic: is too much for a control wizard to proc storm spell critical hit. ALSO is too much orb of imposition to be strong on all trees. I AGREEd cryptic. a cc tree should not have the damage of a thaumaturge fine. AND the most funny : to get 30% damage on single target -10% aoe. WE need to be meelee as range class or not maximum potential damage against frozen . CRYPTIC logic on a hunter ranger trapper: you can increase damage and control strength with master trapper capstone. ALSO in the same cc tree you can have 3 feats to reset your encounters + your thorned roots to able to critical being the first class after mod 5 with a feat able to critical. SWitch stances to buff up with a specific feat so hard is : when all encounters have 1 second cooldown!
i am writing this because you took away the easy damage which i agree but you let wizards with the slow building damage compare to other classes.
suggestion: 1. remove penalty from focus wizardry 2: give to thaumaturge faster way to buff up personal damage. yes i target that tree since is the damage dealing. 3 : LET disintegrate to add arcane stack. AND 4 : encounters-wills-dailies should deal the same damage as the tooltip says for all classes if and other classes have similar problems.
the sooner you will realize that GF class has some broken aspects of it if it can outdps the DPS specced GWF whilst hitting like a turtle.
A GF can out DPS a DPS specced GWF when the battles last as long as the GF's buffs last. In PvP and PvE. GWF hitting like a turtle? A little overly dramatic maybe? I see GWFs win more paingivers then most DPS classes combined and with ILs much lower. They're hardly a gimped class and can perform amazingly with no skill and mediocre gear at best.
Like I said before, lets wait for the bonding stone nerf, then make some judgements.
Longer battles will let CWs build up stacks of arcane and GWF of destroyer and last longer then the 10 seconds a GF needs to hit Knight's Challenge/Commander's Strike/Anvil of Doom on a Tiamat head or edemo before the DPS-herd runs off to the next 9 second fight.
Fast, burst encounters are inflating GF DPS numbers and denting paingiver-focused egos. I think the fights lasting longer will help correct the curve.
- You could've just connect 2+2 and see that I wrote about GF hitting like a turtle. - CW building up stacks of arcane in the longer battles. WHAT?
You actually made me confused. GJ.
he means you will enough time using magic missiles to stack fast arcane mastery which is true vs a boss. vs trash to get up arcane in a serious pt need to start with opressive in case of spellstorm mage.
Its really not magic when HR or SW does a lot of damage.
HR: Careful attack in tiamat or Hawk Eye.
SW: Murderous Flames or Soul Puppet or Fabled Ilyanbruen set.
Basically, mechanics that will be fixed sooner or later, because they are definitely not doing what they are supposed to be doing, (as in, tool tip says one thing and they do another) which is why nobody complains about how "balanced" they are, since its not even a question of them being balanced.
dread apply to thorned roots and thorned roots are critical hit when was the storm spell feature a critical hit annoyed everyone and me as cw easy damage i have the same concern about the thorned roots.
@mamalion1234 Why would anyone build up the stacks of arcane mastery at a boss fight? - In normal circumstances you need a full cast of magic missiles in order to get a single arcane mastery, given that your weapon choice doesn't build up arcane stacks at any rate which is yet unlikely since most people opt for Chill stack bonus. - While the at-will is significantly faster and in some instances better than Chilling Cloud, not only does the Arcane missile lock you down in animation but you need the full cast in order to get one tiny arcane stack. - In a high fight situation I can't imagine keeping up 5 Arcane stacks against a boss. I, with barely any recovery and with Spell Twisting didn't even have enough time to cast a Chilling Cloud when I really wanted to max it out. I would hop around with Ray of Frost which I use solely for the sake of resetting the stacks of Spell Twisting, especially from a distance. In the end, using super-speedy encounters fueled by Dread alongside with Spell Twisting barely left any place to build arcane stacks. Not only that, but they disappear so quickly and by the time you build one stack you could've used 2-3 encounters and do like 500.000 without even trying. Also arcane stacks disappear simultaneously unless you keep 'em refreshed at all times. Or, in other words : WHAT?
Nice regards.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Stopping a DPS GF to make DPS? Easy...just kill all before he can hit them.
thats exactly what i am doing, when i que for castle never, i just rush in and clear everything i can by the time the GF loads the map, i am already at ORCUS keepin my DPS on TOP... theres no way i am goin to loose to a GF in damage.
So then why crusade for GF nerfs when you just admitted that you're clearing the most difficult end-game solo with GWF?
Maybe they should buff OP dps tree, they surely deserve it.
I agree completely!! OPs should be balanced for solo play and have a DPS tree that works.
Ever notice that almost everyone that says their lobbying in the name of 'balance' never mentions buffing a class other then their own and purely focuses on nerfs for other classes to make their's stronger? And people wonder why the dev's don't read this junk.. I call BS on almost every post about balancing on this board/forum/thread and it's really just 1-sided nerf-them/buff-me posts with a very cheap and flimsy disguise.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
edited May 2016
GF deal spikes not dps. gwf deal dps high hit with sure strike or wms per sec. until gf activate knight challenge and stress to hit with anvil the right moment a gwf will deal his million damage per sec with sure strike.
Stopping a DPS GF to make DPS? Easy...just kill all before he can hit them.
thats exactly what i am doing, when i que for castle never, i just rush in and clear everything i can by the time the GF loads the map, i am already at ORCUS keepin my DPS on TOP... theres no way i am goin to loose to a GF in damage.
ok... so, I'm confused here. PvP... ok I get it, everyone wants to be the best.. fine, whatever. In PvE.... WHO CARES? I don't even look at those stats anymore - they're totally irrelevant to me. The question is.. did you win the run? If so... instead of crying about a GF being at the top of the damage list, how about instead thank him/her for his help and congratulate them on a good build and move on. I mean come on people, where you place in paingiver doesn't have anything to do with the size of your you-know-what or how far you can pee. I think the OP's question has been answered a few times over at this point....
ok... so, I'm confused here..... I mean come on people, where you place in paingiver doesn't have anything to do with the size of your you-know-what or how far you can pee. I think the OP's question has been answered a few times over at this point....
Wait...you didn't know? For 90% of this audience, being top paingiver is ALL that matters. Because...otherwise they have to think about, you know, REAL stuff. Like the size of their you-know-what.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
Since you dont care about pve , why do you even post about it.
PVE is a mess and this is part of the issue. Its not the only issue, but its part of it.
ok... so, I'm confused here. PvP... ok I get it, everyone wants to be the best.. fine, whatever. In PvE.... WHO CARES? I don't even look at those stats anymore - they're totally irrelevant to me. The question is.. did you win the run? If so... instead of crying about a GF being at the top of the damage list, how about instead thank him/her for his help and congratulate them on a good build and move on. I mean come on people, where you place in paingiver doesn't have anything to do with the size of your you-know-what or how far you can pee. I think the OP's question has been answered a few times over at this point....
Since you dont care about pve , why do you even post about it.
PVE is a mess and this is part of the issue. Its not the only issue, but its part of it.
I was saying "who cares" about whether a GF gets #1 paingiver over some other class. I wasn't saying that about PvE in general. My point is: the original question has been answered and this thread has devolved into the typical class balance with a side order of pissing contest thrown in for fun.
ok... so, I'm confused here. PvP... ok I get it, everyone wants to be the best.. fine, whatever. In PvE.... WHO CARES? I don't even look at those stats anymore - they're totally irrelevant to me. The question is.. did you win the run? If so... instead of crying about a GF being at the top of the damage list, how about instead thank him/her for his help and congratulate them on a good build and move on. I mean come on people, where you place in paingiver doesn't have anything to do with the size of your you-know-what or how far you can pee. I think the OP's question has been answered a few times over at this point....
"Congratulations on the broken aspect of the game that you so congenially used to your own advantage and made the entire run completely pointless, took out all the fun, and made our years of investment completely irrelevant due to your amazing SKILL of building a great character"
))))
Get real. At-will doing millions of damage?
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
I'd like to point to yet another factor that people like to use when they say that every class should be "equal". They are not RPG enthusiasts nor are familiar with the concept of a TANK, HEALER, BUFF, NUKE, DPS options.
If anything, an ideal role for everyone should be - TR misleading the mobs by abilities that make the mobs prone and or dazzled for a longer time, ability to do the highest spike single-target damage. Able to Silence the boss abilities. Each at-will hit reduces their hidden status by 15%-25%-90% which is logical. You can't just remain hidden and hold at-will. High dodge rate, but takes extra damage from critical hits. Super moves should deplete all stamina and should put all spells on full recovery (cooldown). TR could use a cloud to make one member of the team hidden for 5-10 sec (such as DC, SW or CW who gain aggro). Artifacts would work. - GF should have more immunity to various statuses and should be the best support player. Timing the shield to dumpen down the attack of a mob or simply taunt the mobs and collect them adequately for the strategic benefit. The best way to utilize Combat Advantage. Should take a heavy beating and have better buffs than OP. Bonus damage against the demons and elementals. Holding shield diminishes stamina, and it's ok. - DC should be able to choose between damage boosts, stats boosts and healing respectfully. Healing should be AoE specced or Single-Target specced. DC's should do bonus damage against the Undead units. Pure support class with many heal over time abilities. - GWF should be a combination of a GF and TR, utilizing tankness with slashing damage but never do more critical hit than a TR. GWF should be one of the classes to utilize the stamina and use stamina to deal damage i.e. each swing uses a portion stamina and all daily powers deplete the entire stamina and puts everything on recovery (cooldown). Artifacts would still work, though. Should have the ability to jump-stomp the enemies as one of the primary ways to initialize the combat and leave the mobs stunned for 5 sec. Each following and consecutive hit would make them more aware by 15%-45%-90%. A small bonus damage against everything. - HR should be the biggest regular damage but with the slowest attack pattern, and would have to keep the distance for the biggest damage potential. If enemies come too close, HR should be unable to use the bow and arrow and instead would have to use melee. Bonus damage against beasts. HR should be the sniper, sort of with a 1% chance to actually kill the boss altogether. If more than one HR is in the team, the chance is is 90% less potent, and it adds up with each next HR in the pt. Spamming Q on HR is a bad way to play the class and people get tired very easily. 50% more gullible to different statuses from mobs and bosses. - SW should be the regulator, i.e. "turn of the tides" sort of a character who would steal the HP from the mobs and give to the party. They should benefit the most from Life-Steal abilities and would have to use their HP as a means to attack. Lose 30% HP to gain 20% more damage for 5 seconds. Use 50% of your HP to unleash a miasma of vampiric transfer and refill your party's health by using it on mobs below 20% hp. Things like that wold make the class fun to play and would furthermore make the DC a more viable choice as well. - CWs should lose the Oppressor tree and integrate it in the build either way. Spellstorm Mages should do a lot of burst damage, whilst Master of Flame Mages should do an additive Damage over Time with high crit possibility at the cost of a higher aggro. As someone pointed out, Spell Storm and Critical Conflagration should be an integrated parts of the class since both Spellstorm Mages and Master of Flame Mages are HAMSTER without them. Depending upon the Item Choice, Mages should opt more for the Damage, Tankyness, Controlling Power and lastly should add the best OFFENSIVE abilities to the party. Mages should be able to make Bosses prone if their controlling powers are over 100% (additive) and this would be possible only from behind the boss. A spell such as Astral Chain or similar to that. During the Astral Chain boss would receive 20% extra damage from all sources and 40% extra damage from the opposing school of magic (if boss is undead, radiant damage would hurt him more).
Just my two cents.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
I've never posted anything like "Trickster rogues are drunk from being overpowered , thats why they are spouting lies"
I also discount any results that include someone hitting for millions of damage. That's clearly a bug exploit and therefore has no place in a legit conversation about damage potential. I'm not familiar with the SW bug people talk about, but clearly that too has no place in an objective conversation either.
So, exploits aside - yes - I think the Paingiver stat is completely meaningless. It's about whether you win or lose - that goes for PvE and PvP. So, I just don't get why people are crying so much in this thread... Because of some exploit? If that's the case this thread has badly derailed and probably should just be put out of its misery.
I'm jumping in late to the conversation, but I'm about 2.8-2.9 ( depending on which enchants I use ) and I'm always baffled how a GWF at lower I level and not so good stat allocation can sometimes double my dps. I'm like he has one sword, and I'm over here shooting lightning bolts. Wtf.
Comments
- CW building up stacks of arcane in the longer battles. WHAT?
You actually made me confused. GJ.
Maybe they should buff OP dps tree, they surely deserve it.
poor poor GFs they deal no damage WE HAVE TO BUFF THEM so they can be accepted in pve......
being a GF must be so painful, you cant kill even a powrie
GF class lacks of useful powers they need a "DC circle" to deal real damage....without DC mama GF just hit like a noodle and their HP bar is drained even with the shield up.......is time to give some love to this class so they can finally solo'ed any lvl 60 pve map.
1000 000 no crit single hit, is not enough already???
2:30
.
CRYPTIC logic on a hunter ranger trapper: you can increase damage and control strength with master trapper capstone. ALSO in the same cc tree you can have 3 feats to reset your encounters + your thorned roots to able to critical being the first class after mod 5 with a feat able to critical. SWitch stances to buff up with a specific feat so hard is : when all encounters have 1 second cooldown!
i am writing this because you took away the easy damage which i agree but you let wizards with the slow building damage compare to other classes.
suggestion: 1. remove penalty from focus wizardry 2: give to thaumaturge faster way to buff up personal damage. yes i target that tree since is the damage dealing. 3 : LET disintegrate to add arcane stack. AND 4 : encounters-wills-dailies should deal the same damage as the tooltip says for all classes if and other classes have similar problems.
@mamalion1234 Why would anyone build up the stacks of arcane mastery at a boss fight?
- In normal circumstances you need a full cast of magic missiles in order to get a single arcane mastery, given that your weapon choice doesn't build up arcane stacks at any rate which is yet unlikely since most people opt for Chill stack bonus.
- While the at-will is significantly faster and in some instances better than Chilling Cloud, not only does the Arcane missile lock you down in animation but you need the full cast in order to get one tiny arcane stack.
- In a high fight situation I can't imagine keeping up 5 Arcane stacks against a boss. I, with barely any recovery and with Spell Twisting didn't even have enough time to cast a Chilling Cloud when I really wanted to max it out. I would hop around with Ray of Frost which I use solely for the sake of resetting the stacks of Spell Twisting, especially from a distance.
In the end, using super-speedy encounters fueled by Dread alongside with Spell Twisting barely left any place to build arcane stacks. Not only that, but they disappear so quickly and by the time you build one stack you could've used 2-3 encounters and do like 500.000 without even trying. Also arcane stacks disappear simultaneously unless you keep 'em refreshed at all times.
Or, in other words : WHAT?
Nice regards.
Ever notice that almost everyone that says their lobbying in the name of 'balance' never mentions buffing a class other then their own and purely focuses on nerfs for other classes to make their's stronger? And people wonder why the dev's don't read this junk..
I call BS on almost every post about balancing on this board/forum/thread and it's really just 1-sided nerf-them/buff-me posts with a very cheap and flimsy disguise.
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance
PVE is a mess and this is part of the issue. Its not the only issue, but its part of it.
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance
Get real. At-will doing millions of damage?
I'd like to point to yet another factor that people like to use when they say that every class should be "equal". They are not RPG enthusiasts nor are familiar with the concept of a TANK, HEALER, BUFF, NUKE, DPS options.
If anything, an ideal role for everyone should be
- TR misleading the mobs by abilities that make the mobs prone and or dazzled for a longer time, ability to do the highest spike single-target damage. Able to Silence the boss abilities. Each at-will hit reduces their hidden status by 15%-25%-90% which is logical. You can't just remain hidden and hold at-will. High dodge rate, but takes extra damage from critical hits. Super moves should deplete all stamina and should put all spells on full recovery (cooldown). TR could use a cloud to make one member of the team hidden for 5-10 sec (such as DC, SW or CW who gain aggro). Artifacts would work.
- GF should have more immunity to various statuses and should be the best support player. Timing the shield to dumpen down the attack of a mob or simply taunt the mobs and collect them adequately for the strategic benefit. The best way to utilize Combat Advantage. Should take a heavy beating and have better buffs than OP. Bonus damage against the demons and elementals. Holding shield diminishes stamina, and it's ok.
- DC should be able to choose between damage boosts, stats boosts and healing respectfully. Healing should be AoE specced or Single-Target specced. DC's should do bonus damage against the Undead units. Pure support class with many heal over time abilities.
- GWF should be a combination of a GF and TR, utilizing tankness with slashing damage but never do more critical hit than a TR. GWF should be one of the classes to utilize the stamina and use stamina to deal damage i.e. each swing uses a portion stamina and all daily powers deplete the entire stamina and puts everything on recovery (cooldown). Artifacts would still work, though.
Should have the ability to jump-stomp the enemies as one of the primary ways to initialize the combat and leave the mobs stunned for 5 sec. Each following and consecutive hit would make them more aware by 15%-45%-90%. A small bonus damage against everything.
- HR should be the biggest regular damage but with the slowest attack pattern, and would have to keep the distance for the biggest damage potential. If enemies come too close, HR should be unable to use the bow and arrow and instead would have to use melee. Bonus damage against beasts. HR should be the sniper, sort of with a 1% chance to actually kill the boss altogether. If more than one HR is in the team, the chance is is 90% less potent, and it adds up with each next HR in the pt. Spamming Q on HR is a bad way to play the class and people get tired very easily. 50% more gullible to different statuses from mobs and bosses.
- SW should be the regulator, i.e. "turn of the tides" sort of a character who would steal the HP from the mobs and give to the party. They should benefit the most from Life-Steal abilities and would have to use their HP as a means to attack. Lose 30% HP to gain 20% more damage for 5 seconds. Use 50% of your HP to unleash a miasma of vampiric transfer and refill your party's health by using it on mobs below 20% hp. Things like that wold make the class fun to play and would furthermore make the DC a more viable choice as well.
- CWs should lose the Oppressor tree and integrate it in the build either way. Spellstorm Mages should do a lot of burst damage, whilst Master of Flame Mages should do an additive Damage over Time with high crit possibility at the cost of a higher aggro.
As someone pointed out, Spell Storm
Just my two cents.
I also discount any results that include someone hitting for millions of damage. That's clearly a bug exploit and therefore has no place in a legit conversation about damage potential. I'm not familiar with the SW bug people talk about, but clearly that too has no place in an objective conversation either.
So, exploits aside - yes - I think the Paingiver stat is completely meaningless. It's about whether you win or lose - that goes for PvE and PvP. So, I just don't get why people are crying so much in this thread... Because of some exploit? If that's the case this thread has badly derailed and probably should just be put out of its misery.
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance