with my equations if i have 20 alts, if they are all have maxed leadership, and you roughly get 12.5k zen a month, so i guess cyrptic are losing long term cash investments. wow, that is alot of ADs plus several months of exchanging for zens collected over the time, made those guys loaded and get anything for free. that why devs/market team had to stop those guys, now i understood the reason, those guys had several months headstart than anyone or newer players. i would get burnout just playing strictly for ADs, i just want to play the adventures and quests because i just want to feel that i am in the story, not for grinding. so i dont know if they were using scripts while they sleeps or away from keyboard so they dont get burnout or they share accounts in "sweat-shops" on rotations. i am only guessing.
C'mon folks - don't you know that part of the fun of this game is to figure out how to keep making AD after they "adjust" stuff? It's a game within a game - economic foreplay
I aim to misbehave
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
To me the overwhelming bigger issue, is why bother grinding your tail off, you get to the point that you realize how terrible the content they have given us is and the future looks really bleak, realistically , we may get 1 more new "something" in the next 6 months.
Its time for a drastic change in terms of slate of content .. a whole new slate, get rid of the past everything imo and start fresh. Raise level cap another ten levels and do it right this time.
I cant remember another mmo I played that just basically used all of its old content in the way neverwinter has.
My two cents to this topic would be : I have no problems with making gem coffers for the guild, in the way we have it now. That is fine, we ll adapt. We did adapt.
Most of us have professions maxed on more then 1 char. And it is working, slowly then before, but working. I will not complain about it, since that is Cryptic " new direction" of the game.
However what i do have a problem with, is the fact i can not get the stupid artifacts up , unless i buy freaking stacks for 35k / 40k ? I call HAMSTER. After years of getting the artifacts up, year after year, mod after mod, set after set, there is no more pillaging of nodes, collecting gems through dungeons or expecting drops of R5 / R4s , other RP is even worse in price and collecting them now is based on a period of time, waiting to get enough, in order to get something up... and even with dragon hoard ench and dragon runs it is taking a very long time to raise things.
After getting rid of the Lostmouth set, since they basically made an April joke of it.. Most of people went back to other sets, like Valindra or the new : " omg , we have to have it " Orcus set.
I just want to get that stupid Tiamat orb up to legendary without having to beg for RP. And yes i am ignoring the so called " new and improved " adventure seals , cos they freaking suck and i will not give 100 seals for 1 ench rank 5. *heck * no. Just like i will not pay 1000 zen for a coal ward or 100 zen for pres ward unless i grind it in game.
I have raised a lot of sets in my time. And this mod is proving as the most difficult in achieving something that should be so simple if you are playing this game.
So , yea, sorry for the fact it turned into a vent, but i could not help myself. I am sad. And i feel pathetic , that after years of playing this game i can not get one little set up , unless i spend my time playing the AH or grinding like a mindless bot.
* edited , since i do not wish to offend anyone *
Post edited by araneax on
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
edited May 2016
I think a simple look at friends list and channels and forums, will give you a overall of how players view this game at the moment.
Grinding.. too much of it. (AD , RP, SH HAMSTER) the balance isnt right with it. You shouldnt have to run content 1-5000 times (thats not a exaggeration.. ) Content.. Not enough , not quick enough, not challenging enough, not rewarding enough. (please no more campaign junk after this next work through.. give it 6 months or so)
People are leaving because clearly the balance of those two things are not correct. If it was correct, people would be playing.
urabask said: Great, they stopped the bots and now we're stuck with stacks of r5s at 35k+, lesser thaum/union/stability/power at 100k+ etc.
I don't get why there isn't a bigger stink. Basically we're letting Cryptic get away with the equivalent of removing AD from leadership and do nothing about it.
This is a temporary problem. If no one BUYS the stacks, they expire in 5 days. 2 weeks @ most & the prices drop.
urabask said: Great, they stopped the bots and now we're stuck with stacks of r5s at 35k+, lesser thaum/union/stability/power at 100k+ etc.
I don't get why there isn't a bigger stink. Basically we're letting Cryptic get away with the equivalent of removing AD from leadership and do nothing about it.
This is a temporary problem. If no one BUYS the stacks, they expire in 5 days. 2 weeks @ most & the prices drop.
Cryptic ran 2x enchants, prices drop ~9k a stack, they're up 2k from then and they still disappear off the AH. But sure, people will just magically stop buying the cheapest and most convenient form of RP.
Guess what the cheapest artifact of power is? Raven skull at 220k. So we're still looking at ~ 1 million AD to refine an artifact of power.
That's true. That's just about a week's worth of effort, though. Not counting leaderhip armies, just plain gaming at the 36K cap and using a VIP account.
I just want to get that stupid Tiamat orb up to legendary without having to beg for RP.
Do you know how feeder artifacts work?
Yes i do know how it works. It used to pay off, when the artifacts where not so expensive as they are now. I am what you would call a hamster. I collect stuff and it is really hard for me to let go of them. If i have them on mythical, it is even worse.
However i was stating the fact that even if you do have VIP and if you are right now, trying to get new artifact up and maybe, did not get rid of the LS , it started to be much harder then in any of the mods to get things up. Getting rid of gems did not help and it made things worse. Right now azure stack is 30k , simple training runestone rank 5, stack is 44 k , arcane 32 k. It is pure madness. Lesser union stones 61.8 k... how is this helping any of the new players get their stuff up ? Or old players raising new and improved artifacts every new mod? If we are talking about artifacts... Maybe if i use BPS For Tia orb it could work at least for now, since the price is low. 75 k each.. But some of the others are so expensive my head hurts.
I agree with urabask....horrible grind and little sense of progression once you´re at 2.5k IL (I feel stupid for playing 3 toons). I did hope the ridiculously high r5 price would settle/Cryptic would do something about that but will they? -.- And to make it worse...they combined painfully slow/grindy progression with a severe lack of incentives/rewards for that progression. There is NO PVE content whatsoever that is appropriate for 3k, 3.5k, let alone 4k+ toons. And PVP is a mess because of the huge gear gap, so unfortunately PVP as it is - for a lot of players- likely not a reason to advance toons, too. It´s a horrible strategy that -as far as I can see- is bound to make the game fail. But there won´t be IL brackets in PVP and also no 3k or 3.5k IL dungeons unless they make refinement/progression in general easier. The reasons for this become obvious if you think about it for a minute. But if they DID make it easier and implemented content to make it worthwhile, it´s likely that this would incite players to stay (even old ones to come back)...you don´t want to leave the game if you haven´t yet seen the most awesome top-end content yet so you´d either play hard to get there ...or have a good reason to pay money to speed up the process. The most fun in this game I had when doing dungeons with pug groups that actually had the appropriate IL/power for those dungeons and didn´t consist of players rage-quitting after playing nonsensically and then dying because they were most likely used to some uber-toons being around who basically cleared the dungeon for them without the necessity for team-play at all. Groups that instead communicated and made some effort at teamwork. So if 3k+ or 3.5k+IL toons had challenging, fun and rewarding content this would create a ton of fun for those players and they´d most likely haunt content that is way to easy for them far less frequently thus improving the overall gaming experience for low-geared toons, too. But the (increasing) pain of refining artifact gear and artifacts without there being any reward (more challenging dungeons or nice PVP-arena) leaves you with just progression for progressions sake.
it's easy to refine to mythic artifacts, if you use feeders well especially that so far the price of potential feeder artifacts hasn't gone too high in price.
But it did go up in price. Check the power artifacts.
Used them and got to union artifacts to mythic already...before soaring prices for r5 (gave up on power artifacts though)...now it´s a pain in the behind even with feeder artifacts. Not even looking forward really to next double rp.
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,135Arc User
Don't be in a hurry. Use what you get when you get it or store it until 2x RP rolls around.
The majority of issues with AD/RP/whatever all stems from "gotta have it NOW" syndrome.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
I also have to agree with urabask insofar that I also don´t quite get this "be patient", "endure", "find funny other ways"-attitude. It´s a game, it´s supposed to be fun. And in life in general I think it´s much healthier to be outspoken about what you don´t like, give rational arguments and then demand change instead of putting up with whatever nonsense comes your way I mean, is there anybody here that actually thinks it´s hilarious refinement/character progression gets harder while at the same time there´s a lack of a reason for it (more challenging dungeons, nice, working PVP arena)...?? No? Well then stop justifying and ask for things to change...
Prices are high but in case you would go for 1. dragonhoards 2. giant spider/ insignia bonus 3. those utility enchants that drop enchants You will get your AD 100 times back in the long run
Stop wasting AD in case you do not have those
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,135Arc User
I also have to agree with urabask insofar that I also don´t quite get this "be patient", "endure", "find funny other ways"-attitude. It´s a game, it´s supposed to be fun. And in life in general I think it´s much healthier to be outspoken about what you don´t like, give rational arguments and then demand change instead of putting up with whatever nonsense comes your way I mean, is there anybody here that actually thinks it´s hilarious refinement/character progression gets harder while at the same time there´s a lack of a reason for it (more challenging dungeons, nice, working PVP arena)...?? No? Well then stop justifying and ask for things to change...
There is already an answer for you: zen market with lots of blood rubies just waiting for you to feed them to your gear.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
You will get your AD 100 times back in the long run
Stop wasting AD in case you do not have those
I've got quartermaster enchants and they are by far the best investment out of all that. That doesn't stop it from costing ~1.5 million AD to make four rank 9s and a rank 10 (not counting the cost of RP, so really more like 2-2.4 million (I made mine before 2x RP because they drop so much that it's a good investment).
Dragonhoards are only any good for artifact equipment, feyblessing enchants are garbage.
Out of all the available options quartmaster enchants are the only option that come close to meeting the RP needs a player has and they require a pretty significant investment up front.
Out of all the available options quartmaster enchants are the only option that come close to meeting the RP needs a player has and they require a pretty significant investment up front.
Out of all the available options quartmaster enchants are the only option that come close to meeting the RP needs a player has and they require a pretty significant investment up front.
What about wanderers fortune?
Wouldn't know I don't have it. Just to put things into perspective though wanderer's fortune would have to be making a stack of rank 6 enchants, a few rank 7s, and 5-10 peridots/minor resonance stones every day to be as good. And that's before you apply 2x enchants.
I'm seeing a very noticeable increase in drops with wanderer's fortune. I think its better than the two R9 dragon hoard and R8 Fey Blessings I already have on.
Out of all the available options quartmaster enchants are the only option that come close to meeting the RP needs a player has and they require a pretty significant investment up front.
What about wanderers fortune?
It usually drops refinement stones with addition of peridots , aqumarines and sometimes a sapphires. I guess it depends on what class you are playing as well , if you are doing damage or not? I have it on my gilded giant spider.A chance to have a refinement stone drop at your feet on killing an enemy, I am not sure if it really is 4%. And sometimes it would pop up for me, but i would not gain anything.
To me the overwhelming bigger issue, is why bother grinding your tail off, you get to the point that you realize how terrible the content they have given us is and the future looks really bleak, realistically , we may get 1 more new "something" in the next 6 months.
Its time for a drastic change in terms of slate of content .. a whole new slate, get rid of the past everything imo and start fresh. Raise level cap another ten levels and do it right this time.
I cant remember another mmo I played that just basically used all of its old content in the way neverwinter has.
This person MUST be on mind altering chemicals.
I have NEVER played an MMO that DOES NOT, as this insane individual puts it, "use old content".
NOT ONCE. CoH, SWTOR, CO, STO, Star Conflict, League of Legends, the list goes on. And on and ON.
Sure, in some cases there IS an "upgrade", but to the best of my recollection "old content" is the building blocks that lead you further in the world, Story line, what have you.
So dude, It must be nice to be a cheater or have spent about $800 to get your maxed out toon to the HAMSTER level that it is. However, some of us are casual players and SOME of us refuse to open our wallets, mainly because IMHO we're tired of NW devs taking away all sources of building up your toons BESIDES the cash option.
Which means that like me, that it's likely that the highest toon that these people are running is about 3000 GS/IS or so. Me, my best toon is at 2900. I can just BARELY survive in epic dungeons.... CW here. OH. And for the record... I have been playing SINCE LAUNCH. Sadly for me, didn't get my "leadership army" spun up until about six months before the devs pulled the plug. Over a year's work to get to that point.... "poof".
Anyway. The hell w/ new content. I would very much like to see ALL the bugs gone. I would like to see a tier system implemented into PvP. New PvP maps would be nice. Gauntlgyrm working would be nice. I'm not up on dungeons, because for the most part I DON'T PLAY THEM. All that dying at epic, don't ya know. So maybe an epic level and a mythic level dungeon set for the over 3500 crowd?
And I would REALLY like LEADERSHIP AD'S REINSTATED. If for no other reason than well, hell, the market is back to 500 AD per Zen, today there aren't even any Zen to buy, so here we are back at insane levels of AD to Zen and Me w/ ONE QUARTER of the AD's earned on an average day.
NOT ACCEPTABLE. QUIT PUNISHING HONEST PLAYERS. Use your common sense, your alleged intellect, and figure out how to stop the botters. The Zen exchange tells me that they are still with us, and alive and well. Figure it out. It IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.
I like it that things take a long time because it means there's always something to do. What I don't like is much of that something consists of manually dragging and dropping millions of RP into a little slot. That's the drudgework of a job you hate, not a game you like. I don't care what RP costs or how much it takes, I just don't want to drag and drop a few million freaking times.
To me the overwhelming bigger issue, is why bother grinding your tail off, you get to the point that you realize how terrible the content they have given us is and the future looks really bleak, realistically , we may get 1 more new "something" in the next 6 months.
Its time for a drastic change in terms of slate of content .. a whole new slate, get rid of the past everything imo and start fresh. Raise level cap another ten levels and do it right this time.
I cant remember another mmo I played that just basically used all of its old content in the way neverwinter has.
This person MUST be on mind altering chemicals.
I have NEVER played an MMO that DOES NOT, as this insane individual puts it, "use old content".
NOT ONCE. CoH, SWTOR, CO, STO, Star Conflict, League of Legends, the list goes on. And on and ON.
Sure, in some cases there IS an "upgrade", but to the best of my recollection "old content" is the building blocks that lead you further in the world, Story line, what have you.
So dude, It must be nice to be a cheater or have spent about $800 to get your maxed out toon to the HAMSTER level that it is. However, some of us are casual players and SOME of us refuse to open our wallets, mainly because IMHO we're tired of NW devs taking away all sources of building up your toons BESIDES the cash option.
Which means that like me, that it's likely that the highest toon that these people are running is about 3000 GS/IS or so. Me, my best toon is at 2900. I can just BARELY survive in epic dungeons.... CW here. OH. And for the record... I have been playing SINCE LAUNCH. Sadly for me, didn't get my "leadership army" spun up until about six months before the devs pulled the plug. Over a year's work to get to that point.... "poof".
Anyway. The hell w/ new content. I would very much like to see ALL the bugs gone. I would like to see a tier system implemented into PvP. New PvP maps would be nice. Gauntlgyrm working would be nice. I'm not up on dungeons, because for the most part I DON'T PLAY THEM. All that dying at epic, don't ya know. So maybe an epic level and a mythic level dungeon set for the over 3500 crowd?
And I would REALLY like LEADERSHIP AD'S REINSTATED. If for no other reason than well, hell, the market is back to 500 AD per Zen, today there aren't even any Zen to buy, so here we are back at insane levels of AD to Zen and Me w/ ONE QUARTER of the AD's earned on an average day.
NOT ACCEPTABLE. QUIT PUNISHING HONEST PLAYERS. Use your common sense, your alleged intellect, and figure out how to stop the botters. The Zen exchange tells me that they are still with us, and alive and well. Figure it out. It IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.
The zax is at 500 because there's too little zen entering it relative to the demand caused by a 50% zen market sale. If they reinstated leadership AD the backlog would explode and it would never drop below 500.
As to old content you're understated the degree to which old content is recycled. Every mod since mod 6 has us do the same circlejerk where we go back to a zone to beat up a few mobs or do an HE. Then we get one dungeon/skirmish no one wants to run befause they're better off just running elol+esot.
Quartermasters don´t make up for the loss of botting action on r5´s apparently. So they are not a substitute in any shape or form as far as I can see yet. It has been said a million times before - the botting actually brought the costs of refining artifacts to a bearable level. They absolutely should reward -playing- the game sufficiently (especially group content like dungeons) to adjust the costs or just cut required rp to a quarter of what it is now. A decently intelligent and sentient being cannot be expected to behave like a freaking bot and/or be happy and content about it and even spend money on the game. And while I am perfectly willing to contribute to the games existence by spending money I am now back to begrudging them even the freakin´ 10€/month for VIP.
Comments
wow, that is alot of ADs plus several months of exchanging for zens collected over the time, made those guys loaded and get anything for free.
that why devs/market team had to stop those guys, now i understood the reason, those guys had several months headstart than anyone or newer players.
i would get burnout just playing strictly for ADs, i just want to play the adventures and quests because i just want to feel that i am in the story, not for grinding.
so i dont know if they were using scripts while they sleeps or away from keyboard so they dont get burnout or they share accounts in "sweat-shops" on rotations. i am only guessing.
Its time for a drastic change in terms of slate of content .. a whole new slate, get rid of the past everything imo and start fresh. Raise level cap another ten levels and do it right this time.
I cant remember another mmo I played that just basically used all of its old content in the way neverwinter has.
I have no problems with making gem coffers for the guild, in the way we have it now.
That is fine, we ll adapt. We did adapt.
Most of us have professions maxed on more then 1 char. And it is working, slowly then before, but working.
I will not complain about it, since that is Cryptic " new direction" of the game.
However what i do have a problem with, is the fact i can not get the stupid artifacts up , unless i buy freaking stacks for 35k / 40k ?
I call HAMSTER.
After years of getting the artifacts up, year after year, mod after mod, set after set, there is no more pillaging of nodes, collecting gems through dungeons or expecting drops of R5 / R4s , other RP is even worse in price and collecting them now is based on a period of time, waiting to get enough, in order to get something up... and even with dragon hoard ench and dragon runs it is taking a very long time to raise things.
After getting rid of the Lostmouth set, since they basically made an April joke of it..
Most of people went back to other sets, like Valindra or the new : " omg , we have to have it " Orcus set.
I just want to get that stupid Tiamat orb up to legendary without having to beg for RP.
And yes i am ignoring the so called " new and improved " adventure seals , cos they freaking suck and i will not give 100 seals for 1 ench rank 5. *heck * no.
Just like i will not pay 1000 zen for a coal ward or 100 zen for pres ward unless i grind it in game.
I have raised a lot of sets in my time. And this mod is proving as the most difficult in achieving something that should be so simple if you are playing this game.
So , yea, sorry for the fact it turned into a vent, but i could not help myself. I am sad. And i feel pathetic , that after years of playing this game i can not get one little set up , unless i spend my time playing the AH or grinding like a mindless bot.
* edited , since i do not wish to offend anyone *
Grinding.. too much of it. (AD , RP, SH HAMSTER) the balance isnt right with it. You shouldnt have to run content 1-5000 times (thats not a exaggeration.. )
Content.. Not enough , not quick enough, not challenging enough, not rewarding enough. (please no more campaign junk after this next work through.. give it 6 months or so)
People are leaving because clearly the balance of those two things are not correct. If it was correct, people would be playing.
Great, they stopped the bots and now we're stuck with stacks of r5s at 35k+, lesser thaum/union/stability/power at 100k+ etc.
I don't get why there isn't a bigger stink. Basically we're letting Cryptic get away with the equivalent of removing AD from leadership and do nothing about it.
This is a temporary problem. If no one BUYS the stacks, they expire in 5 days. 2 weeks @ most & the prices drop.
It used to pay off, when the artifacts where not so expensive as they are now.
I am what you would call a hamster.
I collect stuff and it is really hard for me to let go of them. If i have them on mythical, it is even worse.
However i was stating the fact that even if you do have VIP and if you are right now, trying to get new artifact up and maybe, did not get rid of the LS , it started to be much harder then in any of the mods to get things up. Getting rid of gems did not help and it made things worse. Right now azure stack is 30k , simple training runestone rank 5, stack is 44 k , arcane 32 k. It is pure madness. Lesser union stones 61.8 k... how is this helping any of the new players get their stuff up ? Or old players raising new and improved artifacts every new mod?
If we are talking about artifacts...
Maybe if i use BPS For Tia orb it could work at least for now, since the price is low. 75 k each..
But some of the others are so expensive my head hurts.
It´s a horrible strategy that -as far as I can see- is bound to make the game fail. But there won´t be IL brackets in PVP and also no 3k or 3.5k IL dungeons unless they make refinement/progression in general easier. The reasons for this become obvious if you think about it for a minute.
But if they DID make it easier and implemented content to make it worthwhile, it´s likely that this would incite players to stay (even old ones to come back)...you don´t want to leave the game if you haven´t yet seen the most awesome top-end content yet so you´d either play hard to get there ...or have a good reason to pay money to speed up the process.
The most fun in this game I had when doing dungeons with pug groups that actually had the appropriate IL/power for those dungeons and didn´t consist of players rage-quitting after playing nonsensically and then dying because they were most likely used to some uber-toons being around who basically cleared the dungeon for them without the necessity for team-play at all. Groups that instead communicated and made some effort at teamwork. So if 3k+ or 3.5k+IL toons had challenging, fun and rewarding content this would create a ton of fun for those players and they´d most likely haunt content that is way to easy for them far less frequently thus improving the overall gaming experience for low-geared toons, too.
But the (increasing) pain of refining artifact gear and artifacts without there being any reward (more challenging dungeons or nice PVP-arena) leaves you with just progression for progressions sake.
Check the power artifacts.
The majority of issues with AD/RP/whatever all stems from "gotta have it NOW" syndrome.
I mean, is there anybody here that actually thinks it´s hilarious refinement/character progression gets harder while at the same time there´s a lack of a reason for it (more challenging dungeons, nice, working PVP arena)...?? No? Well then stop justifying and ask for things to change...
1. dragonhoards
2. giant spider/ insignia bonus
3. those utility enchants that drop enchants
You will get your AD 100 times back in the long run
Stop wasting AD in case you do not have those
Dragonhoards are only any good for artifact equipment, feyblessing enchants are garbage.
Out of all the available options quartmaster enchants are the only option that come close to meeting the RP needs a player has and they require a pretty significant investment up front.
Pffff. Everyone hoards til 2x RP. There is still a problem.
I have NEVER played an MMO that DOES NOT, as this insane individual puts it, "use old content".
NOT ONCE. CoH, SWTOR, CO, STO, Star Conflict, League of Legends, the list goes on. And on and ON.
Sure, in some cases there IS an "upgrade", but to the best of my recollection "old content" is the building blocks that lead you further in the world, Story line, what have you.
So dude, It must be nice to be a cheater or have spent about $800 to get your maxed out toon to the HAMSTER level that it is. However, some of us are casual players and SOME of us refuse to open our wallets, mainly because IMHO we're tired of NW devs taking away all sources of building up your toons BESIDES the cash option.
Which means that like me, that it's likely that the highest toon that these people are running is about 3000 GS/IS or so. Me, my best toon is at 2900. I can just BARELY survive in epic dungeons.... CW here. OH. And for the record... I have been playing SINCE LAUNCH. Sadly for me, didn't get my "leadership army" spun up until about six months before the devs pulled the plug. Over a year's work to get to that point.... "poof".
Anyway. The hell w/ new content. I would very much like to see ALL the bugs gone. I would like to see a tier system implemented into PvP. New PvP maps would be nice. Gauntlgyrm working would be nice. I'm not up on dungeons, because for the most part I DON'T PLAY THEM. All that dying at epic, don't ya know. So maybe an epic level and a mythic level dungeon set for the over 3500 crowd?
And I would REALLY like LEADERSHIP AD'S REINSTATED. If for no other reason than well, hell, the market is back to 500 AD per Zen, today there aren't even any Zen to buy, so here we are back at insane levels of AD to Zen and Me w/ ONE QUARTER of the AD's earned on an average day.
NOT ACCEPTABLE. QUIT PUNISHING HONEST PLAYERS. Use your common sense, your alleged intellect, and figure out how to stop the botters. The Zen exchange tells me that they are still with us, and alive and well. Figure it out. It IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.
As to old content you're understated the degree to which old content is recycled. Every mod since mod 6 has us do the same circlejerk where we go back to a zone to beat up a few mobs or do an HE. Then we get one dungeon/skirmish no one wants to run befause they're better off just running elol+esot.