80% of players are saying that the GWF is fine and doesn't really need buffing.
Item level for item level, GWFs outperform all other classes by leaps and bounds! It's been this way for some time now.
For every questionable Demogorgon paingiver pic (Like a SW wearing the the bugged set getting #1 DPS or a GF ITF buffing another GF with knight's challenge) you see where the GWF isn't #1, the other 98% are where they are. But you won't see those in this thread. You'll be told that the GWF is a striker and should win at all times! And in the rare times they don't, they should be buffed when they don't. .. Or get flamed or trolled if you don't agree with the GWF jockocracy.
so you are admiting that GF is broken since you placed the broken SW set alongside with GF ITF and knight's challenge.
Technically speaking Deathbeez is saying no such thing. He was pointing out how extremely unusual such a team setting outside of a pre-made such a group running together really is. That's all Deathbeez was pointing out.
Developers don't develop classes or content around XTreme Team runs. They develop a class around the common scenarios the game content expects to see in 95% of all groups playing. Ever heard the saying 'don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good."? That's what devs shoot for. ITF is over-performing. Even Deathbeez agrees with that. What he doesn't agree with is the claim that's proof the entire GF class is broken and needs extensive nerfs.
This is not about me dying. This is about us being able to tank as Sentinel and off-tank as Destroyer if other classes can have multiple roles. If not, then other classes should be put into the roles they are supposed to have instead of our one role.
I agree with this. I'm all in favor of Sentinel and Instigator being made desirable roles for GWF. I see GWF as being shoe-horned into a single path in groups and I'd like to see them welcomed no matter which of the 3 feat trees they picked. If GF can be a tanky dps-er then GWF should be able to do that too.
We were blatantly told that GWF can't be a tank and dps at the same time. We were nerfed to make sure it can't happen. People lost years of work and money. We even lost our encounter prone Takedown in PVP. Now GF is a tank and dps with a super PVP prone in Bull Charge and DC is a tank dps healer. Something has to give.
oh believe me. I hear you.
I love my GWF Sentinel. The other 2 feat trees so underperform nobody wants them. I wish the Devs had not nerfed the temp hit points for GWF! Uber suckage. Nerf the tab ability but leave the bug. WTH is up with that. There's a ton Dev's have done to the beloved Barbarian class to make them feel oh-so-less Barbarian.
My fear is that every class is about to get hit with major nerfs over the next 1.5 - 2 years. All in the name of keeping the game challenging to play. There's also the - somewhat legitimate I'll grant - Dev concern that by nerfing player's powers it gives them more leeway in introducing gear, artifacts or what-have you for players to look forward to and play new content for. Players need to have a reason to play the game. With the increasing power creep plus the need to keep giving Players a reward for running new content I've come to the sad conclusion that Devs will give a few buffs from one hand while they take from many others. I wouldn't be filled with unease about this except that Cryptic hasn't exactly had a stellar record when they do this.
I don't know if it's any consolation to you or not but I suspect all of us will be forced to deal with Dev decisions about our main classes that we won't like at all.
But just to repeat again I personally would have no problem with seeing truly tanky GWFs again. Heck I can even imagine a GWF capstone that gives them a splash high burst heal (20' feet 360 radius) to everyone around them when the capstone procs everytime the GWF himself takes high burst damage - burst heals just like Faithful clerics do for example (yes, the GWF would get the burst heal too though maybe it'd be like DCs have to deal with - that is, it would be 70% more effective on your fellow melee-ers than on yourself). I myself would imagine that that would be a very enticing capstone feat for GWFs of all kinds. And I would have zero problems with seeing them get something like that though I suppose there would be people opposed to my idea.
With the coming across the board class 're-works' Devs promised I do hope GWFs get something enticing so they don't become dejected and angry at having their class messed up. That is the one thing I do not ever want to see anyone go through. You put in time and effort and in many cases money - the last thing people want to have happen is to feel their effort got overturned and wasted.
Edit: I just thought of an alternative though I don't know how practical it would be. GWF gets hit with a high-burst hit but instead of a splash burst heal the GWF capstone procs and makes him temporarily stealthed. It wouldn't last as long as for TR but while it was active perhaps it could have similar benefits as what TR get. A stealthy, ticked off Barbarian? Hey, why not? Minsc is a Ranger who thinks he's an Unstoppable Barbarian. Again there's potential for things like that to have weird interactions with other classes but how can you find out if you don't try, eh?
This thread has been dragged into a debate about GF's Vs GWFs - and is now one righteous GF standing firm against the evil mob of angry and irrational GWFs, a few of which when presented with calm and reasonable debate appear to resort to personal insults and name calling. Poor form.
Where are the video's of GF's soloing content? They don't exist cause no one would watch a Vid of a GF taking 16 hours to solo Orcus.
i am sorry for having to post stuff from other players, having to post their content to prove these ignorant players that it can be done.
Thanks for that, I took your advice and I used google.
I found that video and one other where a GF has solo'd eLOL - one from Mod9 and one from Mod8 where the GF solo's a Mod 4 "mini dungeon"
I didn't see any other completed solo's because (even tho I put GF into my search), I got inundated with return hits of GWF's (which this thread is supposed to be about) soloing every dungeon, HE, Skirmish etc. that Neverwinter has ever thrown at them.
I did find an old video where a GF started to Solo CN (old version), video was sped up 4x (so viewers didn't poke their eyes out with a pen to escape the boredom) but the GF gave up after the 2nd boss because it was taking too long.
But I concede your point, I should have said
"Where are the video's of GF's soloing content? They are very rare cause no one would watch a Vid of a GF taking 2 hours to solo Orcus."
1 - I didn't see any other completed solo's because (even tho I put GF into my search), I got inundated with return hits of GWF's (which this thread is supposed to be about) soloing every dungeon, HE, Skirmish etc. that Neverwinter has ever thrown at them.
2 - "Where are the video's of GF's soloing content? They are very rare cause no one would watch a Vid of a GF taking 2 hours to solo Orcus."
1 - Well, then, that means that you didnt do a real reach at all. Look what i found in a less than 1 min search:
2 - So, now, your argument had changed from "GF's vids about soloing dungeons don't exist" to "no one want to watch a 2 hours video about a GF soloing any dungeon"... Interesting.
EDIT: Now, i hope, that Hyper and Death come to this thread and both state that both videos linked by lancer and by me are fake or something like that or something like "it's not real data".
That is not a complete video, so I didn't make reference to it, its only the last boss and its 25mins long . . . . . . boring
when I search for a GWF video of the same thing, the first one that comes up the GWF takes 10mins to finish the last boss, less than half the time
and yes I conceded that I had exaggerated when I said they don't exist . . please forgive me for using a small amount of poetic licence, but given the nature of this thread, I figured that poetic licence was allowed.
For every questionable Demogorgon paingiver pic (Like a SW wearing the the bugged set getting #1 DPS or a GF ITF buffing another GF with knight's challenge) you see where the GWF isn't #1, the other 98% are where they are. But you won't see those in this thread. You'll be told that the GWF is a striker and should win at all times! And in the rare times they don't, they should be buffed when they don't. .. Or get flamed or trolled if you don't agree with the GWF jockocracy.
Oh, it's about me (as I'm on that pic). No bugged set used. Ontopic: easy to find GWF or GF solo dungeon runs. Find me one with SW. You cry about GWF survivability - yet it's 5x better than SW. SW is a real glass cannon and after recent gameplay changes to stay on top of damage charts we need to come to meele range (well, we always had for buffs but now we've no other choice).
lantern22Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,111Arc User
This is getting ridiculous . . .
@clonkyo1 - what did I say was impossible? boring - yes, impossible - no
@metalldjt - I did concede, I'll concede again - I exaggerated about the no GF vids, but really that is irrelevant to the topic at hand which is about GWF's.
I, and I think the majority of respondents, do not agree with the "argument" that GWF's need a buff to their DPS tree to be viable in PVE. That's what I think, from what I see in PVE pugs anyway.
It would be mad to add viable tanking to what is generally the top DPS class (a few well geared ppl aside). Fair enough if we are talking about making the GWF "tanking" tree better, but that is not what this thread was asking for, it asked for things like more damage resistance to sprint, more defence and HP to armour - that's for every GWF not just the tank path, that's not trading DPS for tankiness, that is having the cake and eating it too.
You say a 360 degree turn and that I have altered my words, but I keep saying the same thing. GWF's are most welcome in any party that I am in, as far as DPS goes it is a GWF that I want to see join the party.
I didn't start going and grabbing vids of the elite of elites to devalue peoples posts . . . but when I went and watched you tube (like I was told to), I saw a GWF soloing Epic CC, which means they can tank just fine if they want to
apologies if I have offended you with the flippant nature of my posting, this is a game, it should be fun. I guess I have been treating this like a light hearted debate, not a really serious one, sorry if that has offended.
It's sad, isn't it? Attacks, insults, spinning. The forum has sunken so low. I've reported more attack & bullying posts in the last 2 days then all the time I've been playing combined. I disagree with alot of what's being said in this thread and mentioned my reasons and experiences, but I get flaming responses instead of reason or logic. You're dumb, can't play, don't know enough elites. Can't play or figure out your class. This is a total disgrace.
.. And on topic of GWFs... like somebody quoted earlier, what I read here is "I die every time I run in front of group trying to clear everything by myself before tank/healer/support arrives.
Sry...i read the whole thread, but i cant find this line. Maybe you can quote it? BTT: Every good playing GWF DONT want a push for DPS. But they need more survivability. I think you dont know exactly wot incoming damage is good for in PVE. Survivability was gone after they tried to fix unstoppable bug. So no off tankiness anymore. No sentinel anymore. Only 1 path to play....fun?
Find me one with SW. You cry about GWF survivability - yet it's 5x better than SW. SW is a real glass cannon and after recent gameplay changes to stay on top of damage charts we need to come to meele range (well, we always had for buffs but now we've no other choice).
I'm totally on your side. My point in this thread is that GWFs are buffed enough already. Too much really but that's another topic. And SWs are really needing the most dev-help at this moment. (HRs too)
The problem is that SW's don't have the voice GWFs do. Make-lots-of-noise-threads like this has one purpose and one purpose only: To make the issue look bigger then it is, no matter the cost. It's an awful way to treat a game where it needs all the players it can get right now.
this is how i feel when i speak with you, and deatbeez or hyper vroian other limited player.
I did not participated in the thread,and generally I never mentioned you anywhere. You just personally attacked me,a fellow player that DID NOT PARTICIPATED in this joke of a THREAD.
..."limited player."..really??? You know me dude?You think you can insult people? I am not reporting you ,yet.Just of the sake of it.i want this post of yours to stay up,so more people to see it and understand your character quality.
Also in that thread players encouraged other players to "blacklist" and "mute" other people ,just because these people do not agree with the GWF posters views.Sad.
Some spoke about "trolls" there. Same people that spoke and accused other people of trolls: They attack here and insult other players,which do not even participated in the thread.SHAME!!!!! hypocricy at its best.
How more low, these crying whining GWFs are going to fall?Shame ,shame
1 - Don't play the "victim role" here because you are one of those forum users who you just described and a lot of us is just copying your and Hypervoreian styles.
2 - Nice to see you removed your biased signature, now, allow us, real players, to do the balance stuff (nerfs on your fav class included) and you'll notice how much fun this game will become IF devs listen to us. n_n
1. No, I've been assaulted & bullied in this thread with personal attacks mentioning medical problems and that's not tolerable! I don't deserve the abuse you 3 have thrown at me because I don't agree with your premises of the weakness of the GWF and stand towards the fact that other classes need more help sooner. It's not a victim thing, it's a ToS thing. We all follow the rules or none of us follow the rules. I think too much leniency has been given already to one of you specifically, and it continues to be abused.
Only in a game forum this ghetto would that be allowed and the poster continue to post. I have the screenshot to prove it and PMed it to the devs and would be happy to forward it to you.
2. You were right. The sig was biased and I removed it. Right, because I'm not a real player. I'm a fake faux shadow player and should stay out of 173rd 'nerf them, buff me' thread you 3 have made this week. That doesn't fly. And if the devs actually listen to a train-wreck argument as this, then this game is truly doomed.
Anyone in this thread actually tested GWF-sentinel path seriously, focussed on defense and tanking gear? I never did but in case I read the feats from sentinel tree it sounds quite tanky and I am pretty sure beside orcus you can tank most stuff easily having some AP gain+ lifesteal and running steel defense+ bravery or steadfast determination and using resoring strike darings shout plus daggers
scale agility: 5% deflect grim promise 15% DR Countless scars 15% DR Master at arms 10% deflect+5 AC sentinel´s aegis 20% efectiveness of all defnese stats+ unstoppable +80% DR if active
A lot of player do theorycrafting without ever testing things in life. Same with temptation warlock, everyone was heavily shouting and yelling at cryptic since mod 5, but never tetsted the path...and it works brilliant for a suppoerterclass wich deals same ammount of damage as some other classes do, not topdamage like GWF-destroyer, furylock or damnationlock sure... but you save 1000´s of buts every dungeonrun, not spaeking of BIS player for sure
Anyone in this thread actually tested GWF-sentinel path seriously, focussed on defense and tanking gear? I never did but in case I read the feats from sentinel tree it sounds quite tanky and I am pretty sure beside orcus you can tank most stuff easily having some AP gain+ lifesteal and running steel defense+ bravery or steadfast determination and using resoring strike darings shout plus daggers
scale agility: 5% deflect grim promise 15% DR Countless scars 15% DR Master at arms 10% deflect+5 AC sentinel´s aegis 20% efectiveness of all defnese stats+ unstoppable +80% DR if active
Let me explain it like this: On paper, that tree is awesome... but that's all: You are melted before you can reach 15 stacks on countless scars. The Aegis is nice... until you notice that your damage cant sustain you and, mostly, your main "HP income" is from Unstop recovery... Basically, it's a "tank" tree which needs a healer and a tank to do its job...
did you test the path having 150k HP , high deflect and lifesteal, waering a negationenchant, adaequat comapnions etc. or not? So anyone who did and run that spec accurately as a tank may answer, no forum-theory-crafting any more please.
I wouldn't bother trying to talk reason here. I'm certain the Dev's won't break the game because a very very small minority of players ask for one class to be buffed to the extent that all other classes will be made redundant.
As well as more HP and defence to the top DPS class, why don't they add in the ability to heal as well. Let's not be half hearted about this, if we are going to combine the best off all the classes, let's not leave out the healer or for that matter the Rogue - hell, throw in the TR's stealth ability as well . . .
If these guys get their way, we can all roll GWF's and live happily ever after.
Comments
Developers don't develop classes or content around XTreme Team runs. They develop a class around the common scenarios the game content expects to see in 95% of all groups playing. Ever heard the saying 'don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good."? That's what devs shoot for. ITF is over-performing. Even Deathbeez agrees with that. What he doesn't agree with is the claim that's proof the entire GF class is broken and needs extensive nerfs.
Edit: I do agree GWF trees need some Dev love.
I agree with this. I'm all in favor of Sentinel and Instigator being made desirable roles for GWF. I see GWF as being shoe-horned into a single path in groups and I'd like to see them welcomed no matter which of the 3 feat trees they picked. If GF can be a tanky dps-er then GWF should be able to do that too.
I love my GWF Sentinel. The other 2 feat trees so underperform nobody wants them. I wish the Devs had not nerfed the temp hit points for GWF! Uber suckage. Nerf the tab ability but leave the bug. WTH is up with that. There's a ton Dev's have done to the beloved Barbarian class to make them feel oh-so-less Barbarian.
My fear is that every class is about to get hit with major nerfs over the next 1.5 - 2 years. All in the name of keeping the game challenging to play. There's also the - somewhat legitimate I'll grant - Dev concern that by nerfing player's powers it gives them more leeway in introducing gear, artifacts or what-have you for players to look forward to and play new content for. Players need to have a reason to play the game. With the increasing power creep plus the need to keep giving Players a reward for running new content I've come to the sad conclusion that Devs will give a few buffs from one hand while they take from many others. I wouldn't be filled with unease about this except that Cryptic hasn't exactly had a stellar record when they do this.
I don't know if it's any consolation to you or not but I suspect all of us will be forced to deal with Dev decisions about our main classes that we won't like at all.
But just to repeat again I personally would have no problem with seeing truly tanky GWFs again. Heck I can even imagine a GWF capstone that gives them a splash high burst heal (20' feet 360 radius) to everyone around them when the capstone procs everytime the GWF himself takes high burst damage - burst heals just like Faithful clerics do for example (yes, the GWF would get the burst heal too though maybe it'd be like DCs have to deal with - that is, it would be 70% more effective on your fellow melee-ers than on yourself). I myself would imagine that that would be a very enticing capstone feat for GWFs of all kinds. And I would have zero problems with seeing them get something like that though I suppose there would be people opposed to my idea.
With the coming across the board class 're-works' Devs promised I do hope GWFs get something enticing so they don't become dejected and angry at having their class messed up. That is the one thing I do not ever want to see anyone go through. You put in time and effort and in many cases money - the last thing people want to have happen is to feel their effort got overturned and wasted.
Edit: I just thought of an alternative though I don't know how practical it would be. GWF gets hit with a high-burst hit but instead of a splash burst heal the GWF capstone procs and makes him temporarily stealthed. It wouldn't last as long as for TR but while it was active perhaps it could have similar benefits as what TR get. A stealthy, ticked off Barbarian? Hey, why not? Minsc is a Ranger who thinks he's an Unstoppable Barbarian.
Thanks for that, I took your advice and I used google.
I found that video and one other where a GF has solo'd eLOL - one from Mod9 and one from Mod8 where the GF solo's a Mod 4 "mini dungeon"
I didn't see any other completed solo's because (even tho I put GF into my search), I got inundated with return hits of GWF's (which this thread is supposed to be about) soloing every dungeon, HE, Skirmish etc. that Neverwinter has ever thrown at them.
I did find an old video where a GF started to Solo CN (old version), video was sped up 4x (so viewers didn't poke their eyes out with a pen to escape the boredom) but the GF gave up after the 2nd boss because it was taking too long.
But I concede your point, I should have said
"Where are the video's of GF's soloing content? They are very rare cause no one would watch a Vid of a GF taking 2 hours to solo Orcus."
when I search for a GWF video of the same thing, the first one that comes up the GWF takes 10mins to finish the last boss, less than half the time
and yes I conceded that I had exaggerated when I said they don't exist . . please forgive me for using a small amount of poetic licence, but given the nature of this thread, I figured that poetic licence was allowed.
Ontopic: easy to find GWF or GF solo dungeon runs. Find me one with SW. You cry about GWF survivability - yet it's 5x better than SW. SW is a real glass cannon and after recent gameplay changes to stay on top of damage charts we need to come to meele range (well, we always had for buffs but now we've no other choice).
Mod 10:
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Killing Flames deals 16636893 (1009292) Fire Damage to Ethraniev Marrowslake.
Mod 9:
[Combat (Self)] Your Murderous Flames deals 376274433 (18876929) Fire Damage to Red Tiamat Head.
@clonkyo1 - what did I say was impossible? boring - yes, impossible - no
@metalldjt - I did concede, I'll concede again - I exaggerated about the no GF vids, but really that is irrelevant to the topic at hand which is about GWF's.
I, and I think the majority of respondents, do not agree with the "argument" that GWF's need a buff to their DPS tree to be viable in PVE. That's what I think, from what I see in PVE pugs anyway.
It would be mad to add viable tanking to what is generally the top DPS class (a few well geared ppl aside). Fair enough if we are talking about making the GWF "tanking" tree better, but that is not what this thread was asking for, it asked for things like more damage resistance to sprint, more defence and HP to armour - that's for every GWF not just the tank path, that's not trading DPS for tankiness, that is having the cake and eating it too.
You say a 360 degree turn and that I have altered my words, but I keep saying the same thing. GWF's are most welcome in any party that I am in, as far as DPS goes it is a GWF that I want to see join the party.
I didn't start going and grabbing vids of the elite of elites to devalue peoples posts . . . but when I went and watched you tube (like I was told to), I saw a GWF soloing Epic CC, which means they can tank just fine if they want to
apologies if I have offended you with the flippant nature of my posting, this is a game, it should be fun. I guess I have been treating this like a light hearted debate, not a really serious one, sorry if that has offended.
friends ??
Attacks, insults, spinning.
The forum has sunken so low.
I've reported more attack & bullying posts in the last 2 days then all the time I've been playing combined.
I disagree with alot of what's being said in this thread and mentioned my reasons and experiences, but I get flaming responses instead of reason or logic. You're dumb, can't play, don't know enough elites. Can't play or figure out your class.
This is a total disgrace.
BTT:
Every good playing GWF DONT want a push for DPS. But they need more survivability. I think you dont know exactly wot incoming damage is good for in PVE.
Survivability was gone after they tried to fix unstoppable bug. So no off tankiness anymore. No sentinel anymore. Only 1 path to play....fun?
The cognitive dissonance some of these GWFs have is amazingly out of touch. And why is it 100% GWFs even outside this thread?
Anyone remember back when this game came out when it was marketed to adult casuals? Those days are loooooong gone. This is what's left. I'm totally on your side. My point in this thread is that GWFs are buffed enough already. Too much really but that's another topic.
And SWs are really needing the most dev-help at this moment. (HRs too)
The problem is that SW's don't have the voice GWFs do. Make-lots-of-noise-threads like this has one purpose and one purpose only: To make the issue look bigger then it is, no matter the cost. It's an awful way to treat a game where it needs all the players it can get right now.
You just personally attacked me,a fellow player that DID NOT PARTICIPATED in this joke of a THREAD.
..."limited player."..really??? You know me dude?You think you can insult people?
I am not reporting you ,yet.Just of the sake of it.i want this post of yours to stay up,so more people to see it and understand your character quality.
Yet it is funny to see people participating in threads like this http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1216132/about-healthy-threads speaking about maners.And then here attack other players personally.
Also in that thread players encouraged other players to "blacklist" and "mute" other people ,just because these people do not agree with the GWF posters views.Sad.
Some spoke about "trolls" there.
Same people that spoke and accused other people of trolls:
They attack here and insult other players,which do not even participated in the thread.SHAME!!!!!
hypocricy at its best.
How more low, these crying whining GWFs are going to fall?Shame ,shame
Only in a game forum this ghetto would that be allowed and the poster continue to post.
I have the screenshot to prove it and PMed it to the devs and would be happy to forward it to you.
2. You were right. The sig was biased and I removed it.
Right, because I'm not a real player. I'm a fake faux shadow player and should stay out of 173rd 'nerf them, buff me' thread you 3 have made this week. That doesn't fly. And if the devs actually listen to a train-wreck argument as this, then this game is truly doomed.
I never did but in case I read the feats from sentinel tree it sounds quite tanky and I am pretty sure beside orcus you can tank most stuff easily having some AP gain+ lifesteal and running steel defense+ bravery or steadfast determination and using resoring strike darings shout plus daggers
scale agility: 5% deflect
grim promise 15% DR
Countless scars 15% DR
Master at arms 10% deflect+5 AC
sentinel´s aegis 20% efectiveness of all defnese stats+ unstoppable +80% DR if active
A lot of player do theorycrafting without ever testing things in life.
Same with temptation warlock, everyone was heavily shouting and yelling at cryptic since mod 5, but never tetsted the path...and it works brilliant for a suppoerterclass wich deals same ammount of damage as some other classes do, not topdamage like GWF-destroyer, furylock or damnationlock sure... but you save 1000´s of buts every dungeonrun, not spaeking of BIS player for sure
So anyone who did and run that spec accurately as a tank may answer, no forum-theory-crafting any more please.
I wouldn't bother trying to talk reason here. I'm certain the Dev's won't break the game because a very very small minority of players ask for one class to be buffed to the extent that all other classes will be made redundant.
As well as more HP and defence to the top DPS class, why don't they add in the ability to heal as well. Let's not be half hearted about this, if we are going to combine the best off all the classes, let's not leave out the healer or for that matter the Rogue - hell, throw in the TR's stealth ability as well . . .
If these guys get their way, we can all roll GWF's and live happily ever after.