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Oathbound Paladin & Devoted Cleric changes

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  • drakenmonkdrakenmonk Member Posts: 27 Arc User

    1) The OP needs a fix, that fix isn't really rooted in Divine Protector, but rather in the way many of the powers available to the class do not work.

    Burning Light: I really like this power, however as it is easily interrupted (eg forced movement effects) its nigh impossible to use in most fights where its bonuses would matter (as the CC effect never matters in those fights). As a Tank I would also much rather it hand out some sort of buff to the party than get the healing buff. If forced movement no longer interrupted this power when you were under a CC immunity effect it would be a great improvement to the power.

    Absolutely not. Burning light with casting time or not is one of the best powers a tank has. If you need to make a change just have it do double damage to cc immune. Otherwise dont touch it, its great for CC and it requires skill to decide how long to use it. It also can heal in one tree and can be made to heal in other tree. Just get the right mount combo and you got a burst flash healing over time effect even though your an OP. I think most of your changes go to far, I have suggestions earlier in the thread that much less of a divergence from what we have now. Paladin does not need a revamp it needs tweaking.
  • kemi1984kemi1984 Member Posts: 849 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    smbvms said:

    kemi1984 said:


    I seriously doubt that this one skill is the only one being useful from both the character and the party he's running with.

    It really is the only skill the OP protector has of any real value, especiallly in PVE. Every other class can steal agro off the OP making it usless as a tank. It does little damage even in an uber build, maybe that's why everyone can steal agro. Its personal shield (shift key) does not block the damage to itself or party members- It absorbs a flat amount of damage, roughly 400k, and then breaks. So with bosses like Orcus hitting for 900k+ the shield breaks and the OP and everyone else dies, even with the bubble. Even at the current 80% damage reduction for the OP via DP if too many party members stand in the red it overloads the OP's ability to absorb the damage and kills the OP and thus the party. It takes skill and the right build to have a perma bubble, i.e. this is a small portion of OP's that can actually maintain said perma aspect w/o the AP(over haste) DC being in party. I have been in party with OP's that could not perma bubble even with said DC.

    For all you lot that "want a challenge", try Q'ing by yourself and going in with a full random group. Oh, wait that wasn't what you meant or had in mind. Speaking from both a OP and GF perspective, I can say outright, that if this change comes into effect as described that I will no longer be tanking for any random 2k player, as I still want to be able to finish the dungeon in my life time. So, go ahead if you must (to appease the minority that would never run with a pug) and ensure that the masses will not get selected or be able to finish any of the 2k+ dungeons.
    Thank you for answer. However no one will convince me that being an immortal through the whole run is either cool or entertaining. At least not for all of us of course...even if it was for some of OP's it's now being changed just like it was made times before with other classes.

    I, as a GF, tried to think about a skill that could be named as a Pallies bubble. The only reasonable one is Knight's Valor.

    If it was nerfed (not sure how actually...) it would still be useful. As for now it shields the party for 50% of incoming damage which is soaked up by the GF. Let's say it's nerfed by a half like the bubble was. Would I take it of my bar? the answer is "no".
    Would I ever slot a skill that makes the whole party immortal in a serious play? again, the answer is "no".

    When the class was introduced, I remember many of GF's hanged their boots and switched to OP. I remember some smart ones analyzed the situation and indeed said that OP has some serious advantage over the GF. ONE, I said ONE of them was the Divine Protector. There are still many many others - naming one 360 degrees blocking, passive 500% threat, ect ect.

    I'm 100% sure that the class will lift itself, after some smart folks will find a way to utilize the tools it already has.
    If, Divine Protector, is the only useful ability OP has - than it has to be the worst designed class ever created in NWN.

    If the bubble was so important, than indeed the class should be renamed to "bubbleadin" :smiley:
    Nancy - Dragonborn, SM Guardian Fighter
    A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"

    1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
    2). Yes. I am panzer!
    3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
    4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
  • ghoulz66ghoulz66 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,748 Arc User
    kemi1984 said:

    smbvms said:

    kemi1984 said:


    I seriously doubt that this one skill is the only one being useful from both the character and the party he's running with.

    It really is the only skill the OP protector has of any real value, especiallly in PVE. Every other class can steal agro off the OP making it usless as a tank. It does little damage even in an uber build, maybe that's why everyone can steal agro. Its personal shield (shift key) does not block the damage to itself or party members- It absorbs a flat amount of damage, roughly 400k, and then breaks. So with bosses like Orcus hitting for 900k+ the shield breaks and the OP and everyone else dies, even with the bubble. Even at the current 80% damage reduction for the OP via DP if too many party members stand in the red it overloads the OP's ability to absorb the damage and kills the OP and thus the party. It takes skill and the right build to have a perma bubble, i.e. this is a small portion of OP's that can actually maintain said perma aspect w/o the AP(over haste) DC being in party. I have been in party with OP's that could not perma bubble even with said DC.

    For all you lot that "want a challenge", try Q'ing by yourself and going in with a full random group. Oh, wait that wasn't what you meant or had in mind. Speaking from both a OP and GF perspective, I can say outright, that if this change comes into effect as described that I will no longer be tanking for any random 2k player, as I still want to be able to finish the dungeon in my life time. So, go ahead if you must (to appease the minority that would never run with a pug) and ensure that the masses will not get selected or be able to finish any of the 2k+ dungeons.
    I'm 100% sure that the class will lift itself, after some smart folks will find a way to utilize the tools it already has.
    If, Divine Protector, is the only useful ability OP has - than it has to be the worst designed class ever created in NWN.
    :
    Dunno what tools you speak of. Take a look at the OP healer. All of it's unused powers, either heal, or increasing healing, both of which are useless. It only has TWO options for mitigating incoming damage for the party. The DC has several.

    The tank has a few powers that just hard taunt one target. RA only @#$%es people off. The GF doesn't even need to worry about taunting an entire mob because it has perma KV to soak up damage for the party, which the OP tank does not so it needs even more mass agro.

  • darkstarrfoffdarkstarrfoff Member Posts: 158 Arc User
    Changing the time of the Divine Protector is very good, but doest matter if it is 20sec, 10sec or 6 sec. What makes the OP invunerable is the yellow life from Templar Wrath. I play if my OP Tank like immortal sice lvl 35... so this must be nerfed too... if dont, does matter the time of divine Protector, in e 2 sec or 4 sec the op give himself a 150k of temporaly hit points.
    For me it could nerf Templar Wrath, put the time of Divine Protector to be at rank 4 10 sec like most of people ask, reduce de resistence to 50% from 80% and reduce the damege redirectioned to 80% from 100%. This must do better.

    To the Shield of Faith, only OP healer use it, and everyone know that heal is not a problem... he can bond every one in the party and split the heal, can heal with passibe power and have a Att-will heal, so heal very very very fast...
    So heal is not a problem... but the problem is the resistence or.othera buffs he can give to se party, what is very low. The only resistence he can give to the party is the Shield of Faith. So, he can t reduce or resiste the hit kills that the party receive.
    For me, reducing 50% of resistence to 30% is not very good option, and power up the healinf bonus to 30% from 20% dont change anything, realy anything... but ita ok to reduce the time.
    For this become mor eaqual to tje other healer, the DC, each have alot of buffs for the party (ap bonus, resistence bonus, power bonus,...), the op have to do some buff to the psrty, more damege resistence for at least nerf the hit kills.

    Sorry buddy, against Orcus the temp HP given simply keeps you off the floor for his lighter attacks. What keeps you alive there tends to be binding oath, even with bubble and temp HP you can be 1 shot without binding. I've had Orcus hit my OP for a single hit of over a million before reductions and well over 300k after the reductions. Then he tends to follow up with another few hits in quick succession for another couple hundred thousand each. They are already nerfing binding oath time by making echos of light proc once per 15sec (which is a massive cooldown), taking away more stuff like temp HP (which already vanishes at a few points in the Orcus fight because "you're not in combat" for all of 1.5 seconds) would really make an OP useless.​​
  • smbvmssmbvms Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 44 Arc User
    kemi1984 said:

    smbvms said:

    I am going to clear up some common misconceptions, as have several others.
    1. Devine Protector DOES NOT make the OP Imortal, nor does it provide full imortality to the party, assuming the entire party (or any of the party) actually get the strings. Op's still die with the bubble up and so can party members even when stringed to it if the damage is high enough, again assuming that every one got strings.
    2. The proposed change is a more than 80% reduction in time with a 30% reduction in mitigated damage.
    3. The OP threat actually works (Tr's can steal threat from an OP)- it takes extremely high dps to steal threat off a GF, (no offence Tr's not saying you don't do damage just saying as a class you have the least threat generation)
    4. That it is easy to be a "perma" bubble- even with a "perma"-build it still takes skillfully playing said build to be able to maintain a bubble. The nerf (or correction to) haste will make this even harder.
    5. That the ones who can and do use a perma-build are doing so to eleminate the challange others might have, quite often the exact oppisite is true. Usually the groups looking for a perma-bubble are the bairly 2k players that or have died so many times they want to quit the game as they find it unplayable, and then the small group of "farmers" looking to beat their run times. None of these groups are complaining about this "so-called invincibality".

    Now for the apples to apples bit:
    Damage resistance: OP - 2 powers that can generate a max increase of 25% combined vs. GF 7 powers that can generate more than 130% increase in damage resistance
    Party dynamics focusing on Devine protector vs Knights valor:
    OP takes 100% of the stringed party members damage and before getting "hit" with it reduces this by 80%, with again a max ability to increase its own damage resistance of 25%- Knights Valor the GF reduces the damage party members take (with-in range) by 50% and is hit by this damage with out mitigation, but the GF has the ability to increase its damage resistance by by over 100%- so the OP gets to mitigate more damage while the daily power is active but it has less then 20% of the ability to increase its damage resistance for the entire run making it highly vunerable even during its daily when compared to the GF. For said implied "invincibility" the OP also has one of the lowest dps output in the game even it its best dps tree.

    arguably the OP is able to better shield the entire party against damage but is clearly far more vunerable to its own death from doing so and as we all should have learned by now if the tank dies so does the entire party.

    As I said, I play both classes. I never hung up my boots on my GF despite several mods where it was difficult to be included in a dungeon party at all, because I found a way to make my build work as I will for almost anything that gets changed with my OP. This isn't a class balancing change that is being suggested, it is a class (protector OP) killing change. As I also said way back on page 3, maybe, the class needs to be balanced but this is not the answer. The point still stands that this does not hurt the already uber groups, who are "complaining about it not being challanging". It hurts the 2k players that desperattly want to be included in a party and actually finish a run.

    As it is lovingly designated by the players either healidin or bubbledin, Paladin was the compromised middle ground name. Just saying, arguably it could be the worst designed class in NWN as it lacks functioning and usable skills down both protection and devotion.
  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,415 Arc User
    kalindra said:

    zibadawa said:

    and the game's REQUIREMENT that I be efficient about AD generation if I'm to actually get anything or do anything other than **** around for **** and giggles, means I'm almost never running epic content these days. It's all about doing around 20 instances of Cloak Tower/ToS and invoking

    Yes, indeed, there were those glorious days of Leadership via gateway:
    You could do you grind for the staff of life without even logging on, without stress and hassels, even from your real life work, and then, in the evening, all the time you had available, you could do stuff you actually ENJOY; if it's trying to beat some boss and routinely failing, that's okay, since you didn't waste time needed for speedruns of small dungeons for some AD.

    Yea, the game was fun these days....

    you are wrong at least now i will able to cast break the spirit before they kill the monsters. just you will need more debuffs-buffs to make fast runs.
  • ashnvfashnvf Member Posts: 294 Arc User
    kemi1984 said:

    I seriously question why the OP is being disabled to the point of uselessness. If you reduce the % of damage negated as well as the duration of the daily, then the OP will no longer be effective as a tank. One or the other, but both render the toon worthless. You are now saying that the toon is not playing as intended, but this is clearly inaccurate as the class is performing as a tank, exactly as intended. There are many methods which this could have been prevented from the onset. Since you did not implement any of these preventative measures, you are clearly changing the rules to punish players who worked hard to make the best of the toon's capabilities.

    As it currently stands the OP is vulnerable in both PVE and PVP and such a dramatic change, while making it easier to kill in PVP will seriously compromise it as a tank in PVE. I think that this is wrong and I do not understand anyone who would support such a drastic alteration.

    By comparison KV is permanent and 50% damage reduction for the party so why is the bubble being "permanent" such an issue - especially if you are looking to reduce the damage it negates as well?

    This is an obvious attack on the OP as a tank, which will have the knock on effect of keeping a significant portion of the players from being accepted for PVE runs. It is hard enough to get the gear, even if you are a "wallet warrior" and the dungeon minimums will not be the standard for getting dungeon runs if this "plan" is followed. You will be making it harder for the newer to game players and increasing the divide between the elite and the developing players.

    Please excuse me,I know nothing about Pallies, it's a serious question - reading from above and other posts it looks like OP was designed around Divine Protector. Is it really true that without it the class is so weak?

    I seriously doubt that this one skill is the only one being useful from both the character and the party he's running with.
    It's the only skill a Paladin has to protect the party. It's similar to KV but was better. Now it's far worse than KV. Paladins also lack proper agro management since binding oath doesn't do what it claims.
  • ir1elir1el Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    i think ill just make a new build to spite the nerfs. lets face it, they take away 75% my bubble time, ill just stack 75% more recovery, and forget about being any kind of damage dealer. if i can keep it up every 8s, then that will be that. 2s of hurt, for 6 of invincibility, and when it comes down to it, the idiots who stand in the res the other 2 seconds probably deserve to die. if anything, these changes will only make me think twice a bout what classes i bring into top tier dungeons like CN all the more... ever think of bringing your 2k guildies who just got to end game to there? not anymore, solo queue and help parties finish? not gonna happen with some 2k geared scrub and no enchants in their gear.. think before u act, is all. and ill be double sure to do that NOW starting thrusday. goodbye pugs, ghello even further discrimination agains lower dps, and heal only support, cause ill definatly need the AP gain buffs now. after thurs hits, ill never run with a healer pally again, since their heals wont be needed with my new build, only ap gain. of course, i wont be in 2nd or 3rd in dps, but i can live with that.
  • sm0ld3rsm0ld3r Member Posts: 236 Arc User
    What this will do for me is get me to not invest anymore in the game. Clearly they have no respect for peoples time and money only to wipe it all out without a single regret.
  • instynctiveinstynctive Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,885 Arc User
    I know that no one really cares.. but after running eToS on preview with ~2.4k ilvl characters (Prot OP, Virt DC and 3 DPS), there was very little change. In fact, I never once used Divine Protector... the DC did a bulk of the shielding. I just aggro'd things, kept my Temp HP maxed as best I could and let DPS do their job.

    I really wish people would stop freaking out.
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    "...I grab my wiener and charge!" - ironzerg79
  • blackylukeblackyluke Member Posts: 261 Arc User
    After testing Gift of Haste on Preview, I have to say that I like the idea of not trying to declare what procs it and what not and simply changing the mechanic of the feat. However, having 1%AP/second for you and all players around you by a Tier 3 feat still seems outrageous. No cooldown means this is constantly active, especially in PvP with Combat Triage active.
    Also without Gift of Haste as an attractive mechanic, the entire Virteous feat tree becomes utterly useless. Most of the feats, have very low to no impact. The most valuable ones are "Last Wishes" which is a Tier 1 feat.

    While I do not want to tell anybody how to do their job, I'd like to recomment to either put at least a 3-5 second cooldown on Gift of Haste or maybe buffing it back (not to orginal state) and moving it deeper into the Virteous tree. The concept of Healing over Time just does not work well with the current state of the game. People get hit for big numbers and require direct heals, Faithful DCs exactly fill this role and since higher geared players have incredible substain themselves the Righteous Tree and pure debuff/damage dealer DCs reign the "meta". While Faithful can at least stack the heals on full HP members, there is outstandingly much healing wasted on full HP members from Virteous DCs.

    Surely this detailed Class Balance maybe a hard task saved for another day, however nobody wants to see Gift of Haste requireing yet another rework.
    ​​
  • oggycz#5356 oggycz Member Posts: 182 Arc User

    I know that no one really cares.. but after running eToS on preview with ~2.4k ilvl characters (Prot OP, Virt DC and 3 DPS), there was very little change. In fact, I never once used Divine Protector... the DC did a bulk of the shielding. I just aggro'd things, kept my Temp HP maxed as best I could and let DPS do their job.

    I really wish people would stop freaking out.

    Yesterday I did test "bubbleless" run eToS. I asked party if it is not problem. All agreed, they were happy (not kidding) to get chance to learn avoid red zones :). I had aura of prot, aura of wisdom, binding, templar wrath and circle of power (very nice, I got 30% more temp HP). With all of it I had 80% DR without sanctuary. To my surprise, it was one of my easiest runs. I did not avoid red zones and had no problem. I have justice pally with only 2300 gear. In the other hand, my DPS was very low (as allways), but I had no problem to survive. Before starting the fight I did binding oath, run to enemies, did templar and circle. I did sanctuary before first binding blast, but when i got full temp hp (about 330000), I simply let binding oath blows to my face without problem.
    Svatá Prdelka
    game - Human/real life - ???
    OP 18k+ Devotion/Justice - Light
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,294 Arc User
    One thing that irritates me:

    As the devs changed the tooltip for Divine Glow, they obviously looked at the power, so why, why didn't they fix the big issue with it?

    I am of course referring to the fact that it does not proc weapon enchants like Dread that specificallysay they trigger on encounter power use.

    It does not say "trigger on encounter powers other than the DC Divine Glow". False advertising, eh?

    There are actually a few other powers with the same issue but this one is particularly irritating as it is used by practically all DCs, at least in PvE.

    So why can't you fix it? There is no way this is working as intended.
    Hoping for improvements...
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User

    1) The OP needs a fix, that fix isn't really rooted in Divine Protector, but rather in the way many of the powers available to the class do not work.

    Burning Light: I really like this power, however as it is easily interrupted (eg forced movement effects) its nigh impossible to use in most fights where its bonuses would matter (as the CC effect never matters in those fights). As a Tank I would also much rather it hand out some sort of buff to the party than get the healing buff. If forced movement no longer interrupted this power when you were under a CC immunity effect it would be a great improvement to the power.

    Absolutely not. Burning light with casting time or not is one of the best powers a tank has. If you need to make a change just have it do double damage to cc immune. Otherwise dont touch it, its great for CC and it requires skill to decide how long to use it. It also can heal in one tree and can be made to heal in other tree. Just get the right mount combo and you got a burst flash healing over time effect even though your an OP. I think most of your changes go to far, I have suggestions earlier in the thread that much less of a divergence from what we have now. Paladin does not need a revamp it needs tweaking.
    Hmm, what I wrote wasn't very clear was it.

    I mean:
    a) Burning Light light is great as it is.
    b) It could be improved if forced movement didn't interrupt it. (Though it may not interrupt it, it may be that most forced movement powers of monsters also have an interrupt effect specifically so being CC immune allows you to continue casting even if forced to move.)
    c) The power would be improved if it handed out a buff to the party instead of giving the tank a healing buff. (This is the tertiary effect of the power for tanks, not the secondary CC effect.)
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • rapo973rapo973 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 831 Arc User
    edited April 2016

    The concept of Healing over Time just does not work well with the current state of the game. People get hit for big numbers and require direct heals.
    ​​

    i don't agree with your statement. As V-DC, I can heal big numbers with HoT powers (120k+ in full heal setup), everywhere and everytime. There's no difference between a F and V DC if you know how to manage your healing powers and regardless the healing mechanic.
    Please have a look at the end boons of the new EE campaign: another 24k heals. Does this game need healers anymore?

    However, having 1%AP/second for you and all players around you by a Tier 3 feat still seems outrageous. No cooldown means this is constantly active, especially in PvP with Combat Triage active.[...] While I do not want to tell anybody how to do their job, I'd like to recomment to either put at least a 3-5 second cooldown on Gift of Haste

    I don't agree with this as well. Constant GoH up is the only thing that a V-DC can do better than other paths. If you remove this, then the V path is really dead.
    Some V-DCs have already tested the new GoH mechanic and the overall effect is quite small: an AP cloack can do better. What you're proposing is a nerf over a nerf: not acceptable imo.

    Post edited by rapo973 on

    Oltreverso guild leader
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  • kemi1984kemi1984 Member Posts: 849 Arc User

    I know that no one really cares.. but after running eToS on preview with ~2.4k ilvl characters (Prot OP, Virt DC and 3 DPS), there was very little change. In fact, I never once used Divine Protector... the DC did a bulk of the shielding. I just aggro'd things, kept my Temp HP maxed as best I could and let DPS do their job.

    I really wish people would stop freaking out.

    This is exactly what I meant to say. So many changes were announced and implemented. yet I do not see any class being "wrecked" sooner or later it lifts up with a creative build that makes the job done.

    As I claimed in my initial mail, I have zero knowledge about the class but ran many times with a Pally and it was always cool when we stomped the last bug/ or dragon/ or dragon queen / or demon prince - you know, right ? :smiley:

    Class was nerfed because dev's decided to do so, and the most reasonable thing to do is either adapt or ?

    Have a good day everyone!
    Nancy - Dragonborn, SM Guardian Fighter
    A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"

    1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
    2). Yes. I am panzer!
    3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
    4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
  • marnivalmarnival Member Posts: 1,432 Arc User
    kemi1984 said:

    I know that no one really cares.. but after running eToS on preview with ~2.4k ilvl characters (Prot OP, Virt DC and 3 DPS), there was very little change. In fact, I never once used Divine Protector... the DC did a bulk of the shielding. I just aggro'd things, kept my Temp HP maxed as best I could and let DPS do their job.

    I really wish people would stop freaking out.

    This is exactly what I meant to say. So many changes were announced and implemented. yet I do not see any class being "wrecked" sooner or later it lifts up with a creative build that makes the job done.

    As I claimed in my initial mail, I have zero knowledge about the class but ran many times with a Pally and it was always cool when we stomped the last bug/ or dragon/ or dragon queen / or demon prince - you know, right ? :smiley:

    Class was nerfed because dev's decided to do so, and the most reasonable thing to do is either adapt or ?

    Have a good day everyone!
    True that you play Gf then lets see..

    Block now migates 50% instead of 80%

    Kv can be held at a maximum 6 sec then goes at a cool-down for 20 sec(lest see how much it will be used)

    Gf damage will be reduced by overall 80% (due to nerfing all heavy hitting powers)

    etc etc

    What the devs decided to nerf Gfs the most reasonable thing is to adapt or ?? am sure that is what would happen

    Very solid comment for a class you don't know anything about ....
  • kitkathdkitkathd Member Posts: 286 Arc User
    AP DC: Is not nerfed. They are even worse now. You can ramp up a disgusting AP gain rate due to the haste still stacking and now being over time. Divinity sunburst seems to be buggy as hell and sometimes does nothing for AP gain. The new AP DC should use divine glow, healing word, and bastion of health and go full top line cause the Haste stacking is just disgustingly op now.

    Tankadin: These changes are ill thought out. If I were a dev in the room during the changes pitch, the first thing I would do is make sanctuary actually instantaneous just like other classes evasion skills. Part of the reason the crying over sanctuary was not so bad was cause the bubble and heroism made up for it. Now we have to actually rely on ssanctuary and 9/10 of the time either the sanctuary takes too long to start working OR even worse we go into a guardian fighter pose and it never works. Furthermore Heroism has a 1-1.5 cast time that is counted in the duration which is unfair and stupid. Both DP and Heroism should have a similar activation to shield of faith, instant. Instead they have a cast animation that can be interrupted and has very often caused failed cast daily uses where you lose your daily points but never gain the buff due to how the AP drain or death happens during the cast time. Heroism before the patch was a paladins only method of avoiding CC. Sanctuary was always just a heal spell for after combat ends due to its unreliable nature. Also on a side note there is an issue with Vigilance and barrier for the Bulwark line, Barrier was not functioning at all if I had vigilance chosen in the feat line. Once I unchose vigilance I started gaining barrier charges again and barrier started giving me a shield. And I dunno if its intended or not but shield spells for pallies are stacking. I can cast absolution, the Daily feat that gives me an uber shield, and barrier and they all stack.
  • badmrfrostyxxxbadmrfrostyxxx Member Posts: 19 Arc User

    I know that no one really cares.. but after running eToS on preview with ~2.4k ilvl characters (Prot OP, Virt DC and 3 DPS), there was very little change. In fact, I never once used Divine Protector... the DC did a bulk of the shielding. I just aggro'd things, kept my Temp HP maxed as best I could and let DPS do their job.

    I really wish people would stop freaking out.

    Yesterday I did test "bubbleless" run eToS. I asked party if it is not problem. All agreed, they were happy (not kidding) to get chance to learn avoid red zones :). I had aura of prot, aura of wisdom, binding, templar wrath and circle of power (very nice, I got 30% more temp HP). With all of it I had 80% DR without sanctuary. To my surprise, it was one of my easiest runs. I did not avoid red zones and had no problem. I have justice pally with only 2300 gear. In the other hand, my DPS was very low (as allways), but I had no problem to survive. Before starting the fight I did binding oath, run to enemies, did templar and circle. I did sanctuary before first binding blast, but when i got full temp hp (about 330000), I simply let binding oath blows to my face without problem.
    What exactly did you provide to your team with that setup? Sure you managed to stay alive but aside from a bit of DR and some AP gain you were likely dead weight. A GF in your place would have soaked up damage and greatly buffed DPS.

    This is the issue, OP's will still be able to run stuff but they won't be a useful member of the team when you have to focus your powers on keeping yourself standing and not on contributing to your team in a meaningful way. If a OP can't keep the others in the team alive, can't provide decent DPS, can't heal, can't keep threat then who would want one in the team?
  • oggycz#5356 oggycz Member Posts: 182 Arc User
    edited April 2016

    I know that no one really cares.. but after running eToS on preview with ~2.4k ilvl characters (Prot OP, Virt DC and 3 DPS), there was very little change. In fact, I never once used Divine Protector... the DC did a bulk of the shielding. I just aggro'd things, kept my Temp HP maxed as best I could and let DPS do their job.

    I really wish people would stop freaking out.

    Yesterday I did test "bubbleless" run eToS. I asked party if it is not problem. All agreed, they were happy (not kidding) to get chance to learn avoid red zones :). I had aura of prot, aura of wisdom, binding, templar wrath and circle of power (very nice, I got 30% more temp HP). With all of it I had 80% DR without sanctuary. To my surprise, it was one of my easiest runs. I did not avoid red zones and had no problem. I have justice pally with only 2300 gear. In the other hand, my DPS was very low (as allways), but I had no problem to survive. Before starting the fight I did binding oath, run to enemies, did templar and circle. I did sanctuary before first binding blast, but when i got full temp hp (about 330000), I simply let binding oath blows to my face without problem.
    What exactly did you provide to your team with that setup? Sure you managed to stay alive but aside from a bit of DR and some AP gain you were likely dead weight. A GF in your place would have soaked up damage and greatly buffed DPS.

    This is the issue, OP's will still be able to run stuff but they won't be a useful member of the team when you have to focus your powers on keeping yourself standing and not on contributing to your team in a meaningful way. If a OP can't keep the others in the team alive, can't provide decent DPS, can't heal, can't keep threat then who would want one in the team?
    Good point. When I joined this party, dungeon was in progress. They were waiting near second campfire, they all died few times and their tank (dont know if GF, or OP) left away. With me we were able to complete dungeon, HR was the best DPS with 148mil dmg. I provide them time and space for their dmg. During this run just only one of them died again once, complain, he did not see red area on ground. OP can boost dmg/heal a little through aura gifts, boost DR and reduce cooldown by auras. Bubble will depend on situation, maybe shield of faith will do better service. It would be better, if binding oath worked as decribed (All targets near the Paladin are forced to attack him....). I do not say GF is not better. We just were able to do dungeon without my bubble.
    Svatá Prdelka
    game - Human/real life - ???
    OP 18k+ Devotion/Justice - Light
  • eliybeatseliybeats Member Posts: 186 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    When I first came to this game, there was never a dependency on ap gain. Now it's like everyone wants haste because they got used to it. The HoT tree is not useless, trust me. When required to heal I would heal like a champ once I had the appropriate gear. I just like Faithful more, I'm tanky as hell in it versus, ac virtuous. People think Faithful is better because of clutch heal and while it has an advantage, it's not true. They both have a sort of limit if you will. One is really good for healing when the group is together, the other is good wherever as long as you have the appropriate power and crit. I would like to see the virtuous tree's capstone buffed, but then again once you hit the appropriate levels, it really doesn't matter. I wold like to see the USELESS feats in virtuous gone. Why would I dare pick a feat that increases my healing if I'm only at 75% or 100% health. That's useless. Healing draws aggro regardless. What they need to do is buff the tree's useless feats. the ap nerf was needed, and the Virtuous tree really shines if you have the proper gear and play-style. I did an eToS run in both with GF and I can tell you they went just fine on both. No problems. Went a little slower, but we got it done. AND IT WAS FUN!!! I did eCC and we did good, died a couple of times on the boss but got to a good amount. Then 2 people lazily suggested we do it the easy way... We could've done it right had the group really tried, but what I've learned is a lot of players don't want to do anything other than play lazily. Some literally forgot they had to move out of red aoe's. Even though I saved them they forget their responsible for themselves and not some God-Mode button. Started ranting... The point is, the game is not as hard a you think. I'm a 2.6k dc and I bet you even if I was a couple of points lower I could've still gotten it done.
    Post edited by eliybeats on
  • kemi1984kemi1984 Member Posts: 849 Arc User
    eliybeats said:

    When I first came to this game, there was never a dependency on ap gain. Now it's like everyone wants haste because they got used to it. The HoT tree is not useless, trust me. When required to heal I would heal like a champ once I had the appropriate gear. I just like Faithful more, I'm tanky as hell in it versus, ac virtuous. People think Faithful is better because of clutch heal and while it has an advantage, it's not true. They both have a sort of limit if you will. One is really good for healing when the group is together, the other is good wherever as long as you have the appropriate power and crit. I would like to see the virtuous tree's capstone buffed, but then again once you hit the appropriate levels, it really doesn't matter. I wold like to see the USELESS feats in virtuous gone. Why would I dare pick a feat that increases my healing if I'm only at 75% or 100% health. That's useless. Healing draws aggro regardless. What they need to do is buff the tree's useless feats. the ap nerf was needed, and the Virtuous tree is good only if you have the proper gear and play-style. I did an eToS run in both with GF and I can tell you they went just fine on both. No problems. Went a little slower, but we got it done. AND IT WAS FUN!!! I did eCC and we did good, died a couple of times on the boss but got to a good amount. Then 2 people lazily suggested we do it the easy way... We could've done it right had the group really tried, but what I've learned is a lot of players don't want to do anything other than play lazily. Some literally forgot they had to move out of red aoe's. Even though I saved them they forget their responsible for themselves and not some God-Mode button. Started ranting... The point is, the game is not as hard a you think. I'm a 2.6k dc and I bet you even if I was a couple of points lower I could've still gotten it done.

    The people got lazy when all of a sudden game enabled them to be like this.
    At the start of the game we had less gear, we had less power creep and still the dungeons were finished.

    When a skill comes that makes the party basically immortal, than we have a "click" on human nature called laziness. If I can't die why should I try to dodge red? I won't it's simple.
    The truth is, we had a quite different game back in the days. Now the game is all about DPS and speed runs, no strat whatsoever just brute force forward to the end boss arena.

    And to the @marnival I said I don't know anything about an OP, I do know a thing about GF though.

    Please stop telling me that the class is wrecked because it can't go perma immortal. GF never did and it did just fine. I played with few OP's that never used the Divine Protector and still they did fine.

    Paladin was designed to be overpowered from day one, now it's being toned down which was even requested by OP side of the game. It was expected just like Lol set nerf, we all know that both Lol and Divine protector was too much, so tell me - who's terribly surprised that it's happening c'mon...

    It's not a question of one class of course, we have a lot of skills and skill interactions that makes some of the things stupid. For me personally, when I did my 1st run with AP DC I had no clue what's going on, I had my dailies (It was during the Dragonflight event) up almost all the time, hit one and AP bar was full in a blink of an eye - so I said WTF !?!?.

    Dailies are dailies - yeah at least they should be, now we're spamming them like there's no tomorrow - and the list goes on...
    They should be a powerful/special use skills not something we can get in few seconds and holding for a long seconds.

    Whatever will be said, Paladins were OP and this rework was long overdue.
    Nancy - Dragonborn, SM Guardian Fighter
    A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"

    1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
    2). Yes. I am panzer!
    3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
    4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
  • hypervoreianhypervoreian Member Posts: 1,036 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    I have a 2,7k heal OP ,that is my secondary toon ,and a 1,9k IL prot Op ,that i only run dread Ring lairs.

    DPS of solo playing is a constant complaint of the OP community and it is a honest one.I think it can be be improved.How?

    1)Rework Relentless Avenger

    The "knock" or better Nuke to orbit knockback effect.I am surprised nobody mentioned that.

    Please,remove the knockback effect of RA.make it prone,stun,or remove it altogether,at least from PVE

    In its current form it is useless in parties cause it disperse mobs.
    Solo play?one of the same .You chase mobs after they are nuked into orbit.

    RA is not compatible with a tank or a heal class,for PVE.Please rework/remove the knockback effect for PVE.

    If some pvp OPs want to keep it,fine,just please,if it is possible turn the knockback effect for pve into :Stun ,or prone.
    Or remove it altogether from PVe and instead add a threat aoe cone (Like GFs LStrike).For prot OPs

    Another option would be:make it a small aoe (3 target cap) and add a percentage of extra DR for any target hit.
    (mechanism exists,similar to Line Breaker Assualt for GF)

    Another option: Make it small aoe (3 target cap) and improve % of healing for any target hit.this for healadin.

    2)Rework Divine touch.
    In its current form it hits less that an attwill. :/ i am serious .
    Buff it a little bit, please! :)

  • marnivalmarnival Member Posts: 1,432 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    kemi1984 said:

    eliybeats said:

    When I first came to this game, there was never a dependency on ap gain. Now it's like everyone wants haste because they got used to it. The HoT tree is not useless, trust me. When required to heal I would heal like a champ once I had the appropriate gear. I just like Faithful more, I'm tanky as hell in it versus, ac virtuous. People think Faithful is better because of clutch heal and while it has an advantage, it's not true. They both have a sort of limit if you will. One is really good for healing when the group is together, the other is good wherever as long as you have the appropriate power and crit. I would like to see the virtuous tree's capstone buffed, but then again once you hit the appropriate levels, it really doesn't matter. I wold like to see the USELESS feats in virtuous gone. Why would I dare pick a feat that increases my healing if I'm only at 75% or 100% health. That's useless. Healing draws aggro regardless. What they need to do is buff the tree's useless feats. the ap nerf was needed, and the Virtuous tree is good only if you have the proper gear and play-style. I did an eToS run in both with GF and I can tell you they went just fine on both. No problems. Went a little slower, but we got it done. AND IT WAS FUN!!! I did eCC and we did good, died a couple of times on the boss but got to a good amount. Then 2 people lazily suggested we do it the easy way... We could've done it right had the group really tried, but what I've learned is a lot of players don't want to do anything other than play lazily. Some literally forgot they had to move out of red aoe's. Even though I saved them they forget their responsible for themselves and not some God-Mode button. Started ranting... The point is, the game is not as hard a you think. I'm a 2.6k dc and I bet you even if I was a couple of points lower I could've still gotten it done.

    The people got lazy when all of a sudden game enabled them to be like this.
    At the start of the game we had less gear, we had less power creep and still the dungeons were finished.

    When a skill comes that makes the party basically immortal, than we have a "click" on human nature called laziness. If I can't die why should I try to dodge red? I won't it's simple.
    The truth is, we had a quite different game back in the days. Now the game is all about DPS and speed runs, no strat whatsoever just brute force forward to the end boss arena.

    And to the @marnival I said I don't know anything about an OP, I do know a thing about GF though.

    Please stop telling me that the class is wrecked because it can't go perma immortal. GF never did and it did just fine. I played with few OP's that never used the Divine Protector and still they did fine.

    Paladin was designed to be overpowered from day one, now it's being toned down which was even requested by OP side of the game. It was expected just like Lol set nerf, we all know that both Lol and Divine protector was too much, so tell me - who's terribly surprised that it's happening c'mon...

    It's not a question of one class of course, we have a lot of skills and skill interactions that makes some of the things stupid. For me personally, when I did my 1st run with AP DC I had no clue what's going on, I had my dailies (It was during the Dragonflight event) up almost all the time, hit one and AP bar was full in a blink of an eye - so I said WTF !?!?.

    Dailies are dailies - yeah at least they should be, now we're spamming them like there's no tomorrow - and the list goes on...
    They should be a powerful/special use skills not something we can get in few seconds and holding for a long seconds.

    Whatever will be said, Paladins were OP and this rework was long overdue.
    Still don't get it I try to make it more clear for you.

    Nerf perma bubble no problem, nerf the paladins ability to protect the party BIG problem.

    You play Gf I strongly suggest you take a pal and go through what you both can add to a party doing a t2 dungeon in form of utility to the party.

    Lets say I suggest your block is capped at 50% and only usable for 8 seconds every 30 sec, then lest add a nerf to your damage by 80% by removing all kinds of spike damage and while we are at it lets make KV a daily with a 6 sec duration and then come back with the same positive feedback to those changes.

    The problem is not weather paladin can survive when tanking its why you should play the class and how you can compete toward the other classes in a group( you do realize that those that play paladin invested a lot of time and even rl money to be able to be useful).

    You say the nerf is ok because bubble made it to simple for parties but you leave out where this change (they don't just nerf bubble they nerf just about everything that made paladin useful to protect the party then added a nerf to the already ridicules dps a pal has) leaves the paladin class in comparison to the other classes.

    If you still dont realize why these changes will be game breaking to paladins when it comes to be desired in groups and able to compete with other classes for a place in a group I suggest you ask around instead of writing about changes to a class you most obviously know very little about.....
    Post edited by marnival on
  • blinxonblinxon Member Posts: 567 Arc User


    DPS of solo playing is a constant complaint of the OP community and it is a honest one

    Erm...why? You can pull a ton of mobs and can kill them without a scratch. Maybe you should level a heal dc to see what is less dps.
  • eliybeatseliybeats Member Posts: 186 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    I have a question. When are you guys gonna make 3.0k/4.0k required iLvl Dungeons?? I see no absolute reason to even continue to gear my cleric up other than pvp. Give me a reason to really want to grind. I see no reason to even go past rank 9 enchantments. CN may be the only reason in the game and even then I can beat it with a good team. Why am I grinding to have more successful runs of THE SAME DUNGEONS when I can grind and build my character up to enter into new exclusive ones. Not just work on campaigns.. (So boring and shows a lack of imagination..) Also, about the power creep. With all this added stuff you guys put into the game to make it easier (mount, insignias, etc.) It feels like you might do what your about to do to the pally and completely screw us over. It seems like we'll be adding all these stats and then when everyone gets comfortable... Diminishing Returns will be re-introduced into the game HAMSTER everyone who worked on their perfect builds... It was wrong to let the Pally's go like this for so long and while fixing it was a very greatly needed thing, your doing it without compensation to those who invested. No new powers or real fixes. Idk why but Neverwinter does kinda have a way of doing this push pull thing to it's players. It's not really a community driven game.
  • kemi1984kemi1984 Member Posts: 849 Arc User
    edited April 2016
    If you still don't realize why these changes will be game breaking to paladins when it comes to be desired in groups and able to compete with other classes for a place in a group I suggest you ask around instead of writing about changes to a class you most obviously know very little about.....

    I heard you on the 1st try...we both know who made the mess. And it was the dev's fault that OP was so powerful from the start. The game and the players got used to it and thus the shitstorm that we face now.

    You do realize that it may (or even had) been made on purpose right? So the class is nerfed hard, what will the players do? either quit the game out of frustration (seem to be justified) or move the stuff to the other char and continue playing.

    New char, new stuff you actually need to farm/obtain = buy which results in giving them money they, well...want?

    Same was made with lol set, it was broken since it was introduced, reported and described gazilion of times, so easy to reproduce the bug - yet it remained for much longer than is should.

    Don't take it personally I know how to be hit with the nerf hammer. Let's hope that if the changes were NOT implemented on the 1st try today, they will get tweaked to not totally destroy the class.
    Nancy - Dragonborn, SM Guardian Fighter
    A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"

    1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
    2). Yes. I am panzer!
    3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
    4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
  • bitt3rnightmar3bitt3rnightmar3 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 788 Arc User
    blinxon said:


    DPS of solo playing is a constant complaint of the OP community and it is a honest one

    Erm...why? You can pull a ton of mobs and can kill them without a scratch. Maybe you should level a heal dc to see what is less dps.
    I find that my OP has a much much easier time soloing than my Virtuous DC. DC without damage is mostly a kite and kill race- Good luck if you miss your Daunting Light Cast. which at least with an OP i can reliably stun lock things and beat on them until they die. I have both- OP is easier than a non Debuff DC. If the changes take away some OP damage I'll be surprised/ Disappointed.
    Relmyna - AC/DC Righteous + Haste| Nadine - CW MoF (working on it)|Buffy - GF SM Tact| Hrist - Justice Tankadin|Healadin (Wannabe Tank)| Lena -MI Sabo TR (Farmer) | Jeska - GWF SM Destroyer (Farmer) | Maggie - HR PF Trapper (Wannabe DPS)
    --
    I'll never retrace my steps.

    Some of my best friends are Imaginary.


  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    It is worth noting that DC and paladin are the only 2 classes that you see reffered to by a single class mechanic (Bubble pally, haste DC). When a single mechanic in an entire class is used to refer to the entire classes functionality, it pretty much tells you the mechanic is overpowered and needs to be nerfed. You don't see anyone asking for a "conduit CW" or a "mighty leap GWF", rather, for other classes, people refer to much broader descriptions, not just a single skill.
  • requiem#3585 requiem Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:

    Good change, the perma bubble had to go.

    in pvp yes but in pve considering how hard the bosses and adds hit NO.no more balance now.
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