Seriously, fabricant, who cares about the damage numbers in your super high geared, buffed to the max, level 20 sh boons groups. You can't balance the game around that.
And this shows, how much you understand about the game mechanics. Zero. I dont know, if even one of his group is BIS. Even if there is a BIS player, it is not needed.
The high dmg is the result of a combination of buffs, debuffs and dmg, not BIS gear. There is (or should be) a balance in group utility. High buffs/ debuffs but lower dmg, DC/ GF/ OP, or high dmg and no significant buffs/debuffs (I am talking about group benefit, not personal buffs), SW/ GWF. Furthermore there are HR, TR and CW with mediocre dmg and some buff/ debuff/ CC abilities.
With the nerf or fix or however you want to call it and the other changes, this balance is changed. DC keeps his buff/ debuff and most of his dmg. GF keeps his buff/debuff and gets a dmg boost. GWF loses more dmg, than SW. CW loses more dmg, than HR and TR. OP loses group utility in spades.
The fabricant and many other player, me included, dont give a rats HAMSTER about paingiver, but about class balance. This changes have a significant impact to class balance, resulting in a much higher 'group value' for SW, DC and GF, compared to any other class. Without any other changes the best group combination will be GF, DC, SW and the rest. The rest is so weak, compared to the other classes, that it mght be better, to invite another SW, GF or DC before any other class. Thats the problem.
BTW, live with it and wait for further changes is no argument. Either a change is good or it is bad. Combined with other changes, the nerf would be good. As it is, it is bad, imo.
Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
0
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Seriously, fabricant, who cares about the damage numbers in your super high geared, buffed to the max, level 20 sh boons groups. You can't balance the game around that.
And this shows, how much you understand about the game mechanics. Zero. I dont know, if even one of his group is BIS. Even if there is a BIS player, it is not needed.
The high dmg is the result of a combination of buffs, debuffs and dmg, not BIS gear. There is (or should be) a balance in group utility. High buffs/ debuffs but lower dmg, DC/ GF/ OP, or high dmg and no significant buffs/debuffs (I am talking about group benefit, not personal buffs), SW/ GWF. Furthermore there are HR, TR and CW with mediocre dmg and some buff/ debuff/ CC abilities.
With the nerf or fix or however you want to call it and the other changes, this balance is changed. DC keeps his buff/ debuff and most of his dmg. GF keeps his buff/debuff and gets a dmg boost. GWF loses more dmg, than SW. CW loses more dmg, than HR and TR. OP loses group utility in spades.
The fabricant and many other player, me included, dont give a rats HAMSTER about paingiver, but about class balance. This changes have a significant impact to class balance, resulting in a much higher 'group value' for SW, DC and GF, compared to any other class. Without any other changes the best group combination will be GF, DC, SW and the rest. The rest is so weak, compared to the other classes, that it mght be better, to invite another SW, GF or DC before any other class. Thats the problem.
BTW, live with it and wait for further changes is no argument. Either a change is good or it is bad. Combined with other changes, the nerf would be good. As it is, it is bad, imo.
Agreed, at the moment, the classes are roughly balanced in PVE, every class has a role that it excels at and it is either better at other classes at doing, or equal to other classes at doing.
Rankings for Buff/debuff: 1) DC/GF 2) CW 3) OP 4) HR 5) TR 6) SW 7) GWF
Rankings for DPS: 1) GWF 2) SW (better than GWF for single target) 3) HR 4) CW/DC/GF/TR 5) OP
Rankings for healing: 1) OP 2) SW 3) DC 4) CW 5) GWF/TR/HR/GF
Rankings for damage mitigation: 1) OP 2) GF 3) DC (best for groups larger than 5) 4) HR 5) GWF/CW/TR/SW
The only class that is arguably slacking here is the tr, but they are beastly in pvp (from what I hear).
How will classes perform post this change? (I am not changing the rankings for anything that remain constant)
Rankings for DPS: 1) SW 2) GF 3) HR 4) GWF 5) DC 6) TR 7) CW 8) OP
Rankings for damage mitigation: 1) GF 2) DC 3) OP 4) HR 5) GWF/CW/TR/SW
Where as now, classes like CW and TR get shafted for no particular reason, the OP gets a nerf which is justified and DP is still OP (regardless of what any paladin tells you, the skill should be completely redesigned tbh.) Before, the classes were in a much more balanced state in terms of Relative Value, although they did too much damage due to the lostmauth set, the over all balance was better. With the nerfing of the elol set, classes should be buffed/adjusted to retain the same relative value as before, as it was a better position than the 1 we currently have.
This changes have a significant impact to class balance, resulting in a much higher 'group value' for SW, DC and GF, compared to any other class. Without any other changes the best group combination will be GF, DC, SW and the rest. The rest is so weak, compared to the other classes, that it mght be better, to invite another SW, GF or DC before any other class. Thats the problem.
Combined with other changes, the nerf would be good. As it is, it is bad, imo.
^^ This 10x.
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
0
ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
edited April 2016
Double OP does jack squat for a SW. But make it a GF/DC and it turns into a monster.
Really balanced and fair when a class relies on % damage buffs to deal DPS. Seriously this kind of BS is why the SW is in desperate need of a complete overhaul.
Double OP does jack squat for a SW. But make it a GF/DC and it turns into a monster.
Really balanced and fair when a class relies on % damage buffs to deal DPS. Seriously this kind of BS is why the SW is in desperate need of a complete overhaul.
You do realize that every DPS class will benefit more from GF+DC than OP+OP?
The classes are roughly balanced? And you most certainly can't know how the balance will look like 2 weeks from now when people have settled in with the changes. You are just making up numbers and rankings. So you say it's balanced with: OP making everyone invincible; DC making dailies usable every few seconds; SW dealing insane damage because the soul puppet gets double/triple buffed; lostmauth set increasing GWF, TR and CW damage by 50%; companions with rank 12 bondings giving 300% stats to players, old set bonuses with percentage buffs/debuffs that were not redesigned for level 70 content. In other words the game is all about exploiting design f-ups and bugs. And it's not even true, in normal groups GWFs just run away with the damage. In solo questing Warlocks regularly run against a wall because it just can't be done. Right now the game is broken, and there will be further changes coming, but I don't think it was bad to give us the most bitter pill first. Still, that's no reason to put epitaphs in our forum signatures.
0
ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Double OP does jack squat for a SW. But make it a GF/DC and it turns into a monster.
Really balanced and fair when a class relies on % damage buffs to deal DPS. Seriously this kind of BS is why the SW is in desperate need of a complete overhaul.
You do realize that every DPS class will benefit more from GF+DC than OP+OP?
That's the entire damn problem. The DC and GF provide more damage buffs and mitigation than the OP.
Let me resay that. The OP does a worst job at reducing the party's incoming damage, and provides them with less damage buffs. That is not fair. That is not balance.
Double OP does jack squat for a SW. But make it a GF/DC and it turns into a monster.
Really balanced and fair when a class relies on % damage buffs to deal DPS. Seriously this kind of BS is why the SW is in desperate need of a complete overhaul.
You do realize that every DPS class will benefit more from GF+DC than OP+OP?
That's the entire damn problem. The DC and GF provide more damage buffs and mitigation than the OP.
Let me resay that. The OP does a worst job at reducing the party's incoming damage, and provides them with less damage buffs. That is not fair. That is not balance.
Yes, it was balanced, somehow. True, the OP does not provide the same buffs as a DC or a GF. In a decent group, OP is not the fist choice, BUT if you run with ppl who cant play very well, who dont have good gear and an 'exotic' build and skill rotation, the OP is the big equilizer. Sure, they will need 10 times longer, than a propper buff/ debuff/ dmg combo, but they can clear CN.
OP was THE class to carry ppl in dungeons. GF/ rightous DC the combination for speedruns. With the OP nerf, there will be a lot of players, that will struggle with dungeons, they cleared before. Adding to that the dmg nerf from LM 'fix', the majority will struggle even more.
BTW, the dungeons are designed to be cleared by the majority of players. There is no real challenging end content in this game. How is it broken, if a few players outgear, outperform or outsmart 90% of the community and burn 'endcontent' in seconds, when said endcontent is designed for ppl with 2.5k IL?
In other games you had to coordinate all players and skills in TS, to beat endcontent. Here ppl think that you are a weirdo, when you ask the other DC for his specs and rotation, to avoid not stacking buffs (true story, thing is, the other DC did not use ONE buff/ debuff skill for the bossfight, so problem solved).
Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
0
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
The classes are roughly balanced? And you most certainly can't know how the balance will look like 2 weeks from now when people have settled in with the changes. You are just making up numbers and rankings. So you say it's balanced with: OP making everyone invincible; DC making dailies usable every few seconds; SW dealing insane damage because the soul puppet gets double/triple buffed; lostmauth set increasing GWF, TR and CW damage by 50%; companions with rank 12 bondings giving 300% stats to players, old set bonuses with percentage buffs/debuffs that were not redesigned for level 70 content. In other words the game is all about exploiting design f-ups and bugs. And it's not even true, in normal groups GWFs just run away with the damage. In solo questing Warlocks regularly run against a wall because it just can't be done. Right now the game is broken, and there will be further changes coming, but I don't think it was bad to give us the most bitter pill first. Still, that's no reason to put epitaphs in our forum signatures.
Yeah, I can, because there were so many people campaigning for a nerf that for a period of roughly a month I did trial runs with groups where nobody used the elol set, admittedly this doesn't take into account the GF buffs and OP nerfs, but I can fairly accurately speculate what buffing/nerfing those classes does. And yeah, even though the OP was brokenly overpowered, he was in some way balanced in high end groups because high end groups never wanted an OP, they wanted a GF. I 100% agree that the classes ability to make content trivial did need to be nerfed, but they also need to be given a roll outside of making everyone invulnerable to damage, because there isn't really any reason to take one in a good group.
Obvious they are not biased. That's due my opinions are based on actual experience and knowledge about the class together sharing and exchange of info with other CW players. So, answering to both you and @c1k4ml3kc3 about your silly question: right now, i play 4 CWs (My new CW main: SS full Oppressor + rene [still on provation]. My main alt: SS Full Thau + rene on HV set, BTW. My first alt CW: SS Full Thau + Oppr and my last CW: MoF Full Rene + Thau). Happy?
You are completely biased, but you do not want to acknowledge that and you simply pursue this agenda of yours despite the fact that Control Wizards are seriously handicapped and any experienced Control Wizard will tell you that. As you main the oppressor, which is the weakest DPS tree for a Control Wizard, who focuses primarily on the WIS and CON (for the PvP, of course, which is completely irrelevant to everything that is oriented for the rest of the 90% of the video-game itself).
Hope devs listen to you. I really want those powers back to their "prime" too... But, as you would know by now, the problem was that: sing pulling ALL movs into a single spot and then, repel then all out from plataform as it happenned back on mod3 and deal with "big" mobs in the old fashion way by GWFs or, pre mod2, TRs because no one wanted GWFs on parties, mainly, CW players. HERE, As i told to c1k4, the problem came when we got that stupid power creep devs gave us "thanks" to pugs not being able to finish epic clock tower at all [And yes, i lived this experience].
That was not the issue, that was AND STILL IS a part of a video-game. You can still do the same thing by pushing the mobs by utilizing the Repel on Spell Mastery slot. It was the best way for a Control Wizard to utilize Control and help the party itself. But it got nerfed to the ground. When people needed 3 CWs on the team, it was because there were a lot of monsters around. You didn't see a lot of TR's back then because when GWFs got introduced they were BETTER than a TR. You also forgot just how POWERFUL the TR were once they got introduced and one-shot anyone in the PvP with the knives. Of course, you only see how the "Cws are the issue", and this is mainly why you are completely biased to a fault. The platforms were especially presented in the dungeons such as SpellPlague where it was imperative to use the Singularity at a specific time in order to push away the mobs off the platform. That was not "a bug" or "error" or "op" - it was and still is a GAME MECHANIC and as such it is originally intended to be taken as "Works as intended". And even back then, CWs were NOT the top DPS class, not even by a longshot. This is yet another reason why you are biased to a fault.
That allowed CWs to exceed on both damage AND control, that was PLAIN STUPID... and, worse yet, CW-players wanted to keep damage instead of control and that gave us Mod4's CW freezer class + Stormspell + Assailant. Since then, CW-players complain about not be able to control. This is the main reason i laught a most CW players, after all, and call them "larloch-complex" players. And this is what C1K4 is defending... (Still laughing at his "timing my encounters"... I can jump into first group of mobs from elol and MELT them with just Icy Terrain + SS + Steal Time + Oppresive and Life steal stat... If he cant, then, he has a problem) . Here, we can argue about "dual specs" or a better "PvP flag system" (this is, powers working diferently on PvP and on PvE [takedown, fronline surge, assiliant, etc]), which are things that a lot of PvP players and some PvE players keep asking since.... um... mod1?
You don't know any CW history properly. MOD4 Control Wizards had to respec and pursue going into the hoards of monsters in order to do the damage. This was without the CC ability for the gathering of the monsters. As such, CW community ADAPTED to the new ways of utilizing the new powers alongside with the new weapons that got introduced. As such, Control Wizards learned a new way to be utilized as a DPS class only. IT WAS NOT BETTER than killing monsters in 3 sec. It was slower and with a higher chance of dying. You'd see a lot of glass canon CWs around, running the HV set, myself included, because that was the ONLY OPTION for running a good and fast Dungeon hunt. Shard of Avalanche got nerfed thanks to the PVP players. As such, it became obsolete for pretty much everything. It still remains obsolete despite doing more damage than, let's say, Icy Terrain. However, Icy Terrain has the benefit of freezing, Chill Stacks and some additional control, which is why it's far more useful than Shard of Avalanche which was used a lot with the Singularity. This is yet another reason why you are biased to a fault. Already four times and counting. If a class uses it's full rotation and all spells in order to get the effect it needs for the so called BURST damage in a short timespan, it is not considered "a bug", "an error", "An issue" or anything to that effect. It is a part of GAME MECHANICS to which people have adapted. Even so, you'd still need MORE CWs in order to keep the mobs in check which is the prime reason why you didn't see a lot of other classes, due to a fact that Icy Terrain covers a rather small area of the ground. And even as such, you'd still need three CWs in order to utilize the buff/debuff ratio, since it was a LOGICAL THING to do at the time. When there are multiple enemies, it is LOGICAL to take the Control Wizard. I hope that you have learned something new today since you are completely PvP oriented player.
2 - On which I agree. The problem comes when players like C1k4 wants to exceed on both CONTROL and DAMAGE and OTHER FIELDS, rendering all other classes down to, as some CW players stated, "support classes to the CW class". Do you remember the time when no one wanted GWFs on parties? What about TRs? and GFs?. And THAT is the topic what i arguing with him about, however, seems like he still dont get it at all.
This is your conclusion and it is not what I've primarily said, which is the reason why you pursue this agenda of yours to a fault, completely avoiding the fact that the Control Wizards are seriously handicapped. If you need 2 CWs to do a job of a 1 CW, then we have a big problem. You will not see the "CLASS BALANCE" as long as Control Wizards can't utilize CC properly and this has nothing to do with the "tree", but more with the fact that the current game mechanics are not CC-oriented, which is why people are not trying to pursue it. If you want to prove otherwise I urge you to use the Singularity at all times and post a video of how efficient your use of singularity is, since you advocate how CC is not dead. If you do not do it, I consider you a liar and a forum fiend who's just trolling on the topic that we all know is correct and true.
Which is sad. Problem here will be the same old story: control oriented CW players wanting to kill everything on sight, even PvP players, while wearing greens or even naked. But this is NOT our problem, but YOURS: What do you want? DPS, control or support? If a CW wants to control targets (and yes, you are right that CC needs to be fixed, but not for CW class only, but for all classes) then, that CW should say "Good bye" to damage and support. A CW wants support? say "good bye" to control and damage. Wants DPS? Say "good bye" to control and support. But be able to do "damage" and "control", imo, its plain stupid.
In that case you will still see 3 CWs in the party doing the job of a 1 CW since they are effectively complimentary one to another. However as the current meta suggests, you do not see more than one CW, and usually not even that. Current meta is 2 GWF and 1 OP, 1 DC and 1 SW. The meta is always the fastest possible way to kill/destroy/beat the dungeon.
So, as you can read by yourself, seems like you are the one whose want everything instead of me. As you can read by yourself, i agree that CWs' "control" must be brought back... BUT, obviously, controling monsters 100% (which was the other reason to nerf CC to the ground) was, IMO, BAD too, so, which would be your solution? Think that, probably, a lot of players will come to forums to complain about "i can control but i cant deal damage" even if they can control mobs to dead or "i can deal damage but cant control" even if they can melt mobs before CC effects expire...
At this point there is nothing that you can agree or disagree upon because you do not understand the concept of "facts". The fact is that CWs are seriously handicapped and whether you agree or disagree is quite irrelevant. Thank you for confirming that your Control Wizard knowledge is sub-par and I hope that you will not enlighten us with your irrelevant opinions.
I'll be waiting for your singularity videos and your "CC oriented" combat. Let's see how awesome it actually is.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
When it comes to CW, CC is only helpful to survive in soloing. CW is way too squishy, and without CC, CW dies very fast unless you use tones of potions every time you face a new group of enemies. Other than that, CC is not helpful in dungeons. Mobs dies fast and bosses cannot be controlled anyway (which reduces CW's damage substantially if you use Chilling Presence).
I agree LM set is glitched, but in a game where already CW's cannot compete with GWFs and SWs, I don't understand how fixing it would help "balance" the game. Probably devs have another interpretation of balancing the game!
I like this change. Now it's doing exactly what it was supposed to. The only REAL issue I have with this is that it took them this long to finally fix it. Now all a GWF needs in order to get back some lost DPS is pick up a Death Slaad companion and start adding stacking poison to their At-Wills.
This forum should not just turn into CW vs. everyone else but I guess some people (on both side of the fence have strong feelings). The real issue is how the lostmauth nerf is going to effect classes differently. As we can see the the CW community is very vocal and because there are lots of us using the preview server, ACT, and showing everyone how it is effecting us, we tend read and see the point of view from a CW more often.
I like most of @flehstiffer above post (other than the last comment) it shows some data and his point of view on how the lostmauth nerf affected his GWF.
I also think @thefabricant is very passionate about how he/she plays the game and you can tell just look at some of his/her guides, very detailed. I don't think he/she is saying it will be the death of the CW but is passionately try to convey that the nerf will make it harder for (non guilded, primarily solo) CW players with mid range (2500 to 3000 IL) gear and maybe even for some high end (>3000 IL) gear with low-dps specs to find a spot in a group because they no longer have sufficient dps (i.e. do not make up for the loss in overall dps) no matter what else they may bring to the fight. Believe it or not I think these are the CW community's concerns in relation to the lostmauth nerf.
With @flehstiffer data we do see a 19 percent decrease in DPS caused by lostmauth. I saw my overall dps drop by 19 percent for my CW on the test shard against the test dummies. I'm not sure how the 19 percent loss in lostmauth's affect his/her overall dps. If I were to assume that it was only a 19 percent overall dps loss that means that instead of GWF's doing 80-100+ million damage in edemo that they may end up doing 64 to 80+ million. I think that with the lostmauth set nerf, GWF's will still be the top of the dps class and there spot in dungeon groups will be safe.
Can any other striker class make up for the loss caused by this nerf? I can only speculate because I don't play any of the other striker classes (i do play a GWF w/o lostmauth) but i'm willing to bet that the HR's and maybe some SW's will make up for some of that loss. Heck with stuff staying alive longer in group content, the CW might actually see an overall increase in DPS in AOE situations than they did before this nerf. I would love to see ACT data from the preview server from the other striker classes that utilize lostmauth and show us how it will effect them overall. We should get group data for dungeon delves on the test shard and see how all the changes effect those classes that are mid range characters (2500-3000 IL).
The fact remains that in solo situations the lostmauth nerf will result in a overall loss in dps for all classes that use this set. As far as my overpowered CW main is concerned, I will always have a spot in dungeon runs even if the CW were nerfed into dirt because I'm in a active guild that incorporates all play styles. As far as solo content is concerned I think with the 19 % loss I will also still be ok because my CW is overpowered compared to the content. The thing about being an overpowered character (in general) is that it doesn't happen overnight, it doesn't happen in 3 months it took me almost 2 years to get her at this level. Not all people have this kind of time and money to dedicate to a game and get a near BiS character.
The thing is I don't want people to turn away from a character class because it requires a greater time sink than another class to play all the content the game has to offer. Right now I know that there are classes out there that have this problem because of broken tree's, bad mechanics, or bugs that make them very difficult to play and ultimately unwanted for dungeon runs and are actually worse of than the CW. I only have a simple request and that is if you don't use the set, have only opinion, or just want be harsh maybe your in the wrong part of the forums. I know for the opinion people we saw what you all had to say in the general forums when there was a poll about the lostmauth nerf and quite honestly I don't think it needs to be reiterated here. Constructive feedback will get the ship steering in the right direction. So lets stop the personnel attacks and the class bashing and lets get back to what this thread is about.
How is the lostmauth nerf affecting your game play! Let's see some data folks! That way Cryptic will be informed on how this potential (highly probable) "fix" is going to affect the game environment for everyone that current uses the set.
This forum should not just turn into CW vs. everyone else but I guess some people (on both side of the fence have strong feelings). The real issue is how the lostmauth nerf is going to effect classes differently. As we can see the the CW community is very vocal and because there are lots of us using the preview server, ACT, and showing everyone how it is effecting us, we tend read and see the point of view from a CW more often.
I like most of @flehstiffer above post (other than the last comment) it shows some data and his point of view on how the lostmauth nerf affected his GWF.
I also think @thefabricant is very passionate about how he/she plays the game and you can tell just look at some of his/her guides, very detailed. I don't think he/she is saying it will be the death of the CW but is passionately try to convey that the nerf will make it harder for (non guilded, primarily solo) CW players with mid range (2500 to 3000 IL) gear and maybe even for some high end (>3000 IL) gear with low-dps specs to find a spot in a group because they no longer have sufficient dps (i.e. do not make up for the loss in overall dps) no matter what else they may bring to the fight. Believe it or not I think these are the CW community's concerns in relation to the lostmauth nerf.
With @flehstiffer data we do see a 19 percent decrease in DPS caused by lostmauth. I saw my overall dps drop by 19 percent for my CW on the test shard against the test dummies. I'm not sure how the 19 percent loss in lostmauth's affect his/her overall dps. If I were to assume that it was only a 19 percent overall dps loss that means that instead of GWF's doing 80-100+ million damage in edemo that they may end up doing 64 to 80+ million. I think that with the lostmauth set nerf, GWF's will still be the top of the dps class and there spot in dungeon groups will be safe.
Can any other striker class make up for the loss caused by this nerf? I can only speculate because I don't play any of the other striker classes (i do play a GWF w/o lostmauth) but i'm willing to bet that the HR's and maybe some SW's will make up for some of that loss. Heck with stuff staying alive longer in group content, the CW might actually see an overall increase in DPS in AOE situations than they did before this nerf. I would love to see ACT data from the preview server from the other striker classes that utilize lostmauth and show us how it will effect them overall. We should get group data for dungeon delves on the test shard and see how all the changes effect those classes that are mid range characters (2500-3000 IL).
The fact remains that in solo situations the lostmauth nerf will result in a overall loss in dps for all classes that use this set. As far as my overpowered CW main is concerned, I will always have a spot in dungeon runs even if the CW were nerfed into dirt because I'm in a active guild that incorporates all play styles. As far as solo content is concerned I think with the 19 % loss I will also still be ok because my CW is overpowered compared to the content. The thing about being an overpowered character (in general) is that it doesn't happen overnight, it doesn't happen in 3 months it took me almost 2 years to get her at this level. Not all people have this kind of time and money to dedicate to a game and get a near BiS character.
The thing is I don't want people to turn away from a character class because it requires a greater time sink than another class to play all the content the game has to offer. Right now I know that there are classes out there that have this problem because of broken tree's, bad mechanics, or bugs that make them very difficult to play and ultimately unwanted for dungeon runs and are actually worse of than the CW. I only have a simple request and that is if you don't use the set, have only opinion, or just want be harsh maybe your in the wrong part of the forums. I know for the opinion people we saw what you all had to say in the general forums when there was a poll about the lostmauth nerf and quite honestly I don't think it needs to be reiterated here. Constructive feedback will get the ship steering in the right direction. So lets stop the personnel attacks and the class bashing and lets get back to what this thread is about.
How is the lostmauth nerf affecting your game play! Let's see some data folks! That way Cryptic will be informed on how this potential (highly probable) "fix" is going to affect the game environment for everyone that current uses the set.
@uptondarkdiamond I agree with most of what you say, I just want to clarify 1 thing, I am a he, not a she I understand that to avoid offending me you used the he/she though, but in future you now know
At this point you are just a troll. In case you didn't notice, this so called discussion is long gone since you do not listen to reason.
Also, where is the Singularity video? So, you agree that the CC is broken, but you do not agree that the Control Wizards are handicapped. In the world where people use brains, that is called a contradiction. Ergo, you contradict yourself.
Do me a favor, stop commenting back to me since I've wasted a LOT of time on you and you still do not want to acknowledge anything at all. In fact, you "laugh" at the Control Wizards utilization of all powers stating "I just use all powers and my life-steal has me going in elol", forgetting that this is exactly what the mechanics imply to do with the burst damage (tick). Exacly this particular "burst damage" has been nerfed, twice now. In the world where people use brains, that's a handicap.
I'm sorry that you believe that there are "real" problems that only fit your perspective, it is not like that and Control Wizards are a DPS class whether you like it or not. End of the story.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
BTW, how do you feel about your class being the only one piercing 66% of Tenacity for free in PvP? Any thoughts about this? Or will you stop making a fool of yourself blaming everything you dislike on "PvP Community"?
I will try to answer to this, I do only pvp and will answer only from a pvp point of view, because seems the preferred argument by "maybe" someone that is a "little" hungry vs the pvp player that use cw and trolling "everyone" that don't think like him.
Do you remember when they introduced this 66%?
Have you made some ACT for check how much is this 66% in "real" more damage?
Have you think that without the 66% the already low control of the cw will not work anymore? ( think to remove that 66% and try to hit someone with EF with all the actual boons that give control resistance, without considering the elven battle ).
Try to remove the 66%, and check again.
What will be the damage of cw encounter without that? What will be the control capacity of the cw ? The control are already low WITH that, imagine without.
For you , was better increase all the power, damage, control duration , of 66% for let be the cw competitive and in line with other class? ( and remember that the cw until mod 4 wasn't exactly what u can call "competitive" in pvp, we was just walking meat )or just give them the 66% of piercing tenacity ?
Try to ask to dev to remove it, but then u will necessary redesign all the power for do damage in line with the other class in pvp, u will need to increase the control duration of all the encounter in pvp.
This will work for pvp, and for pve?
For Pve will not work, the damage will be much more high respect the other class, idem for control power.
The move done by dev at that time was probably one of the most correct for balancing the cw in both pvp and pve.
With the 66% of piercing they have made a cw in line with other for damage in pvp, with his control ( not anymore) avoinding to create a BIG unbalance in pve .
Without u will not have the cw in pvp. And sorry for my eng, I know is terrible
you simply pursue this agenda of yours despite the fact that Control Wizards are seriously handicapped and any experienced Control Wizard will tell you that.
Just for asking, what do you think my "agenda" is? Hope it doesn't have a thing do to, in your opinion, about "render CW class into uselessness".
Side note: the oppresor one is the "main", because i'm focusing on her right now. You should have noticed which one is my REAL main CW when i stated her gear unlike all other CWs... .
You can still do the same thing by pushing the mobs by utilizing the Repel on Spell Mastery slot
And i agree with that tactic (already stated). The problem is that, pre mod4, 1 CW could control a lot of mobs (up to 15 if i remember correctly) with some powers and pulling then off from cliffs and edges, rendering PvE content pretty easy for players with more than 1 neuron... That was stupid yet CW players, back on Mod4's release, wanted DAMAGE in exchange for the loss of control. I could agree on this IF CW-players stopped on their first "complain wave" and got their first damage buff... but wasn't like that, sadly, and CW players asked for MORE power instead for more control "strenght" [not control "targets"] ... And that gave us "marvellous" mechanics like Stormspell + Assiliant + Ray of Dea... er... i mean "Frost" on PvP or Stormspell + Assiliant + Icy Terrain on PvE allowing CWs to end CN solo. Pretty balanced, Right??? . BTW, how do you feel about your class being the only one piercing 66% of Tenacity for free in PvP? Any thoughts about this? Or will you stop making a fool of yourself blaming everything you dislike on "PvP Community"?
Funny FACT: only a bunch of pvp players enjoyed this. Most players celebrating this abomination were PvE players melting everything on sight, PvP players included, and even funnier was when all those PvE players stated that "you must not attack a CW alone, do it in groups!" and when i answered "then, mod3's GWFs was the same, you should attack them in groups instead of '1v1' " and most CWs called me "troll" like you are doing right now because most of them dont wanted to be "balanced" but "broken op". I dont know about you, but i still remember when devs stated, finally, that they would nerf SS back on mod 6 (i may be wrong here) and the river of tears from CWs even threatering to quit the game was EPIC. So, besides the "CW history", i taught you what really happened back there and what do you REALLY defend, even when you stated that "you agree with lostmauth's nerf". So, please, dont blame on us, PvP players, about your "Larloch" complex.
Yet your only defense about it is a "crying in the rain" in form of "will make a lot of CWs quit the game" . I told straight forward to PVP players that SH boons must stay on SH zones and Private Q for the sake of BALANCE. Certain PvP player told me "that move will make a lot of players quit" to which i answered "so be it" back . So, what do you think i do think about your complain? What do you think i do think about players whose want to exceed on 2, 3 or even more roles as you want to, rendering other classes into uselessness?
You will not see the "CLASS BALANCE" as long as Control Wizards can't utilize CC properly and this has nothing to do with the "tree", but more with the fact that the current game mechanics are not CC-oriented, which is why people are not trying to pursue it
Yet you ignored that i agree that CC must be brought back with "limits" (already explained to Saints.) . So, what will be?
In that case you will still see 3 CWs in the party doing the job of a 1 CW since they are effectively complimentary one to another.
I don't know if you noticed this already, but this "part" is the very same argument used by OPs and DCs to avoid the necessary nerf on bubbledins and crazy AP gainings.
The fact is that CWs are seriously handicapped and whether you agree or disagree is quite irrelevant. Thank you for confirming that your Control Wizard knowledge is sub-par and I hope that you will not enlighten us with your irrelevant opinions.
If you say so, it may be true... Sadly, you are saying that players who spend hours testing 1 or 2 skills and told to other players like me their discovers and stuff is also "sub-par" compared with yours... So, mind if you "illuminate" us all with your vast knowledge on the class? Because i am not reading a thing at all about it besides that "CW class is hard handicapped" but you do not explain the REAL reasons about it (hope that it doesn't have a thing to do with your previous post, where you stated that "a lot of CW players will quit"... [BTW, im still laughing for your "play at 100% back on mod 4" statement...)
What if they renamed the CW to just Wizard? Would that put how we feel right now into perspective for you? By your own admission, CC is dead. What if they revamped the entire class into a traditional D&D Wizard class such as in Neverwinter Online or D&D Online? They summoned Familiar companions that gave them boosts unique to their Paragon path. It's literally what the Scourge Warlock is now. Would that change your perception on the word "Wizard" at all? Or are you one of those people who lives under a hypocrisy-laced veil? The primary function of the class has been nerfed to being beyond useless. And no MMO in history has ever had a "Wizard" class that was a buffer. If there is no control, then all arguments go out the window when you make comments like CWs can't be viable contenders for top DPS spots. They either need to make our control second-to-none (with the current state of HR/TR, that would be a tall order), give us buffs that exceed a GF/DC (if that's to be our primary role) or give us enough buffs to give us a shot at being top DPS.
There's no middle ground. We have NOTHING that makes us stand out now. We were content being a jack-of-all-trades, master of none, before the eLoL nerf, but that's been taken from us.
Here are the classes, as I see them, in terms of usefulness.
1. GF - Uses - Tank, buffer and second-third highest DPS now, godly in PVP.
2. SW - Uses - Top DPS on bosses, speed, easiest class to play.
3. GWF - Uses - Top DPS on mobs, speed, survivability.
4. DC - Uses - Top Healer, buffer, higher DPS potential than CW or TR, almost unkillable in PVP.
5. HR - Uses - Best CC in the game, fastest encounter casts, high survivability, third or fourth in DPS, amazing in PVP.
6. TR - Uses - Good CC, good PVE damage, amazing in PVP.
7. OP - Uses - Tank, healing, temporary group invulnerability, almost unkillable in PVP.
8. CW - Uses - Third best CC, despite it literally being in our class name, 7th best DPS, despite being "Wizards", third best buffers, decent survivability, decent in PVP.
Now, you tell me how any of that adds up to balance for CWs. You give me just one justifiable answer that isn't ridden with bias and I won't retort, but that won't happen, because you logically can't. You've been on this trip saying stuff like CWs are crying over spilled milk, when it's the opposite. We just want to be treated fairly.
We have 3 distinct Paragon paths for a reason. Oppressor should have unequaled CC, but it doesn't. Thaumaturge should have an equal chance at Paingiver, but it's next to last for DPS. Renegade should be on par with HR at least in terms of DPS, but it's not. The trade-offs being Renegades have buffs and HRs have CC. None of that balance exists. We don't want to rule the world. We just want a fair chance of being the best at something. As it stands, we're not even middle of the road anymore.
At this point you are just a troll. In case you didn't notice, this so called discussion is long gone since you do not listen to reason.
Also, where is the Singularity video? So, you agree that the CC is broken, but you do not agree that the Control Wizards are handicapped. In the world where people use brains, that is called a contradiction. Ergo, you contradict yourself.
Do me a favor, stop commenting back to me since I've wasted a LOT of time on you and you still do not want to acknowledge anything at all. In fact, you "laugh" at the Control Wizards utilization of all powers stating "I just use all powers and my life-steal has me going in elol", forgetting that this is exactly what the mechanics imply to do with the burst damage (tick). Exacly this particular "burst damage" has been nerfed, twice now. In the world where people use brains, that's a handicap.
I'm sorry that you believe that there are "real" problems that only fit your perspective, it is not like that and Control Wizards are a DPS class whether you like it or not. End of the story.
As i said, your problem came when you stated that players spending a lot of time testing classes (CW class on this case), tell us their discovers and even ask players like me to help then in their tests and we can check first-hand that, whatever they've said and found so far, is correct; is "sub-par" compared with your knowledge of the class when you typed your PoV, no the real ones, about the class around 3 posts earlier, which i disproved already on my previous answer to you together a little lesson about real history about why suffered CW players' SS, in example, for far too long [BTW, just for asking, do you even know why Stormspell were FIXED?] . Also, to allow you make your point really clear, i offered you a chance to explain why CW class is "hard handcapped", hopping that this:
First of all, CC got reduced back in the days because of the PvP clients. This reflected to the poor play in the dungeons, and no damage. Then the damage buff came as a compensation. Then the CWs did crazy damage, but not without completely utilizing every little single aspect of the build. You needed to play 100% in order to get all that CW damage. And it was good since it didn't feel like you're doing nothing. Second of all, Damage got reduced drastically because of the StormSpell nerf. Then the EotS nerf. Then the LM came into the play. Third of all, LM set got fixed in the meantime, thus the CWs lost a huge chunk of damage. This is why some of the CWs are going to leave the game.
Was just a troll joke of yours just to "catch me off".
So, from that point onwards, you are only babbling and crying like a lot of players before you because their favorite class was toned down for X REAL reasons. You stated that i am pursuing an "agenda of mine" which no one but you know. My agenda, already stated on forums a lot of times, is to reach REAL balance to the game but is "thanks" to players like yourself that REAL balance on the game will be really hard to archive. So, if players like you, who wants to exceed on all fields [thanks to lostmauth set, CW class exceeded on both damage and control. But seems that, for you, the only "real CC" is "Singularity"... not almost perma freeze some mobs and complain because you cant "control" elite mobs at all] , will threat to quit the game because they only enjoy playing this game with "god characters", i will tell them "oks, find another game where you can play with a god and leave us, real players, to enjoy a balanced game which will make us enjoy and laugh."
As a side note, its not thanks to "burst damage" that i can be able to survive band of mobs on elol on my own, but thanks to DoTs + Stormspell + LS stat [not so high, TBH] + Icy veins + icy terrain being able to bug and auto apply twice before its CD comes out.
As an additional side note, my video on singu will not see the light ever for 3 reasons:
- On epic dungeons, there is almost not cliffs to pull mobs out from them (1 in elol pre scorpions fight, 0 on esot, 0 on VT, 0 on MC. 5 on eCC, 3 of them are "useless" and the last one was used when you could bug Travern out of chamber. 2 on eToS which only 1 is useful [1st boss fight] and the other one can be really good if you have a low geared team to pull those 4 phase spiders down and 1 "useless" one pre final boss fight).
- On normal dungeons mobs will die just from it. On PvE zones... ehem... but i can alway go to Sharandar to troll Powries.
- You will complain anyway whatever kind of video i'll do about it, so, will be a waste of time at all.
In reallity, all what im watching from you, as i stated on my last post, is that, basically, we will have a hard time to end dungeons at all because CW-class has lost its DPS due lostmauth set's nerf... like the ones stating that we will never be able to beat CN because devs finally removed bubbledins or insane AP gainings via GoH. I hold hopes that you don't blame to PvP community about this too...
So, after you put yourself on your current "humilliated" situation, i will ask you these once last time: Why do you think that CW class is "hard handcapped"? (Hope you dont use what i quoted here... Because other CW hard disagree with your PoV) . Mind if you teach us, "sub par" players, your vast knowledge on CW class, which is "over par" if you compared it with ours? .
EDIT: BTW, CW class is a CONTROL class with DPS cappabilities. Not a DPS class with CONTROL cappabilities. Like it or not, THAT's the real "status" of CW class.
FYI that's not how things work. In Neverwinter your class is supposed to have a range of effectiveness at particular roles based on the paragon feats you choose. That's why CW has a control, DPS and buff paragon tree. If you spec into thaum you should be doing reasonable DPS. With the elol set nerf thaum CWs will lose half their damage and be on par with support classes spec'd into DPS.
Also, no matter what you may think a controller/striker isn't supposed to excel at merely controlling, that's just interpreting "controller" literally. Controller/striker classes are supposed to be DPS classes that are good at using AOEs to deal damage, apply debuffs and CC. CW can't be an effective class based entirely on CC because CC is almost irrelevant with current dungeon design. And given that it's taking Cryptic ages just to bring back dungeons with their current designs it's not reasonable to expect them to completely re-design them to make CC effective. That would require massive changes to all classes and you know that will never happen.
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Just a friendly reminder to keep this on topic. If you have specific feedback on the Lostmauth Set changes, post here. If it's an ancillary discussion about other classes and balance, please move that discussion to another thread. If you just want to bicker and call people names, please take it to a different forum.
The change is good except the "weapon damage" part. The TR's have one of the weakest weapon damage in the game and this will remain their best set regardless of the change. Couldn't you change it to a flat amount instead?
The change is good except the "weapon damage" part. The TR's have one of the weakest weapon damage in the game and this will remain their best set regardless of the change. Couldn't you change it to a flat amount instead?
See, this is a good argument because I think out of all the strikers out there I would venture to say that TR's (in PvE) use the lostmauth set the most (beside the GWF's) and will probably see a bigger decrease in DPS. I don't know that all the stat's for lostmauth are exactly the "best" for the TR cause I only casually (I have 2 at 70 but only every once in awhile do vigilance tasks on one) but I know that they get more benifit from it (stats wise) than a CW would.
So what would the pro/cons be if it was just a flat damage proc? Set it at the highest weapon damage out there (GWF's) and make it work the same for all using it? @amenar is this even something that could be considered or done? Just throwing idea's out there.
ok can someone explain in real numbers what the change could possibly mean for my GWF. i just got ELol set to purple is it even worth keeping if this hits live as is or am i better off feeding it to new set...as i said in my other post i will use it for feeder if that what it takes.
First of all, I'll just say that the Lostmauth set is and always will be the BiS for GWF and you'll just cripple yourself otherwise.
As it stands now:
The Lostmauth set takes into account all multipliers that increase your damage that are in play. So we'll take 3000 as your base weapon damage for the entirety of this post. As is, the amount of actual bonus damage you are likely doing per crit. is probably around 25-30k and up to around 60k if the Lostmauth set crits. itself.
Now you may be doing more or less than that but it is generally accepted that atm, the Lostmauth set accounts for around 30-40% of the overall damage a highly geared GWF does.
With the change, which will make the set do as it was intended to, the bonus damage you will do in this scenario is:
3000 per crit. No more, no less.
Before you freak out, do a little test. Remove the horn from your GWF and play for a few hours through normal content. You'll notice that you are still considerably powerful, just not unbalanced-levels of powerful.
Now imagine doing around 10% or so more damage, maybe 15% if you perma-crit.
It's really not that bad.
0
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Before you freak out, do a little test. Remove the horn from your GWF and play for a few hours through normal content. You'll notice that you are still considerably powerful, just not unbalanced-levels of powerful.
I was a very late adopter to wear the LM set on GWF (had Lathander instead for a long time), and solo play on him was a picnic even when he was a scrub in Thayan Servitor gear and green rings. Likewise the ability to carry a pug party through something straightforward like Kessell. The only thing that was a struggle on the GWF back in Mod 6 that required me to change out some companions for greater survival was the Drake Pens boss fight. (Note: Prison Warden was fine because the fight involves fewer debuffs, and the tight space makes it easier for a GWF to clean up adds.)
There is absolutely NOTHING for a decent GWF fighter player to worry about. LM will be in the proper place for them of being a consistent little boost but not ridiculous. Which was the original intention behind artifact sets.
Comments
The high dmg is the result of a combination of buffs, debuffs and dmg, not BIS gear. There is (or should be) a balance in group utility. High buffs/ debuffs but lower dmg, DC/ GF/ OP, or high dmg and no significant buffs/debuffs (I am talking about group benefit, not personal buffs), SW/ GWF. Furthermore there are HR, TR and CW with mediocre dmg and some buff/ debuff/ CC abilities.
With the nerf or fix or however you want to call it and the other changes, this balance is changed. DC keeps his buff/ debuff and most of his dmg. GF keeps his buff/debuff and gets a dmg boost. GWF loses more dmg, than SW. CW loses more dmg, than HR and TR. OP loses group utility in spades.
The fabricant and many other player, me included, dont give a rats HAMSTER about paingiver, but about class balance. This changes have a significant impact to class balance, resulting in a much higher 'group value' for SW, DC and GF, compared to any other class. Without any other changes the best group combination will be GF, DC, SW and the rest. The rest is so weak, compared to the other classes, that it mght be better, to invite another SW, GF or DC before any other class. Thats the problem.
BTW, live with it and wait for further changes is no argument. Either a change is good or it is bad. Combined with other changes, the nerf would be good. As it is, it is bad, imo.
Rankings for Buff/debuff:
1) DC/GF
2) CW
3) OP
4) HR
5) TR
6) SW
7) GWF
Rankings for DPS:
1) GWF
2) SW (better than GWF for single target)
3) HR
4) CW/DC/GF/TR
5) OP
Rankings for healing:
1) OP
2) SW
3) DC
4) CW
5) GWF/TR/HR/GF
Rankings for damage mitigation:
1) OP
2) GF
3) DC (best for groups larger than 5)
4) HR
5) GWF/CW/TR/SW
The only class that is arguably slacking here is the tr, but they are beastly in pvp (from what I hear).
How will classes perform post this change? (I am not changing the rankings for anything that remain constant)
Rankings for DPS:
1) SW
2) GF
3) HR
4) GWF
5) DC
6) TR
7) CW
8) OP
Rankings for damage mitigation:
1) GF
2) DC
3) OP
4) HR
5) GWF/CW/TR/SW
Where as now, classes like CW and TR get shafted for no particular reason, the OP gets a nerf which is justified and DP is still OP (regardless of what any paladin tells you, the skill should be completely redesigned tbh.) Before, the classes were in a much more balanced state in terms of Relative Value, although they did too much damage due to the lostmauth set, the over all balance was better. With the nerfing of the elol set, classes should be buffed/adjusted to retain the same relative value as before, as it was a better position than the 1 we currently have.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
Really balanced and fair when a class relies on % damage buffs to deal DPS. Seriously this kind of BS is why the SW is in desperate need of a complete overhaul.
Mod 10:
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Killing Flames deals 16636893 (1009292) Fire Damage to Ethraniev Marrowslake.
Mod 9:
[Combat (Self)] Your Murderous Flames deals 376274433 (18876929) Fire Damage to Red Tiamat Head.
So you say it's balanced with: OP making everyone invincible; DC making dailies usable every few seconds; SW dealing insane damage because the soul puppet gets double/triple buffed; lostmauth set increasing GWF, TR and CW damage by 50%; companions with rank 12 bondings giving 300% stats to players, old set bonuses with percentage buffs/debuffs that were not redesigned for level 70 content. In other words the game is all about exploiting design f-ups and bugs.
And it's not even true, in normal groups GWFs just run away with the damage. In solo questing Warlocks regularly run against a wall because it just can't be done.
Right now the game is broken, and there will be further changes coming, but I don't think it was bad to give us the most bitter pill first. Still, that's no reason to put epitaphs in our forum signatures.
Let me resay that. The OP does a worst job at reducing the party's incoming damage, and provides them with less damage buffs. That is not fair. That is not balance.
OP was THE class to carry ppl in dungeons. GF/ rightous DC the combination for speedruns. With the OP nerf, there will be a lot of players, that will struggle with dungeons, they cleared before. Adding to that the dmg nerf from LM 'fix', the majority will struggle even more.
BTW, the dungeons are designed to be cleared by the majority of players. There is no real challenging end content in this game. How is it broken, if a few players outgear, outperform or outsmart 90% of the community and burn 'endcontent' in seconds, when said endcontent is designed for ppl with 2.5k IL?
In other games you had to coordinate all players and skills in TS, to beat endcontent. Here ppl think that you are a weirdo, when you ask the other DC for his specs and rotation, to avoid not stacking buffs (true story, thing is, the other DC did not use ONE buff/ debuff skill for the bossfight, so problem solved).
OP - Sunshine: 16000 IL
Casual Dailies
As you main the oppressor, which is the weakest DPS tree for a Control Wizard, who focuses primarily on the WIS and CON (for the PvP, of course, which is completely irrelevant to everything that is oriented for the rest of the 90% of the video-game itself).
That was not the issue, that was AND STILL IS a part of a video-game. You can still do the same thing by pushing the mobs by utilizing the Repel on Spell Mastery slot. It was the best way for a Control Wizard to utilize Control and help the party itself. But it got nerfed to the ground. When people needed 3 CWs on the team, it was because there were a lot of monsters around.
You didn't see a lot of TR's back then because when GWFs got introduced they were BETTER than a TR.
You also forgot just how POWERFUL the TR were once they got introduced and one-shot anyone in the PvP with the knives. Of course, you only see how the "Cws are the issue", and this is mainly why you are completely biased to a fault.
The platforms were especially presented in the dungeons such as SpellPlague where it was imperative to use the Singularity at a specific time in order to push away the mobs off the platform. That was not "a bug" or "error" or "op" - it was and still is a GAME MECHANIC and as such it is originally intended to be taken as "Works as intended". And even back then, CWs were NOT the top DPS class, not even by a longshot. This is yet another reason why you are biased to a fault.
You don't know any CW history properly.
MOD4 Control Wizards had to respec and pursue going into the hoards of monsters in order to do the damage. This was without the CC ability for the gathering of the monsters.
As such, CW community ADAPTED to the new ways of utilizing the new powers alongside with the new weapons that got introduced. As such, Control Wizards learned a new way to be utilized as a DPS class only.
IT WAS NOT BETTER than killing monsters in 3 sec. It was slower and with a higher chance of dying. You'd see a lot of glass canon CWs around, running the HV set, myself included, because that was the ONLY OPTION for running a good and fast Dungeon hunt.
Shard of Avalanche got nerfed thanks to the PVP players. As such, it became obsolete for pretty much everything. It still remains obsolete despite doing more damage than, let's say, Icy Terrain. However, Icy Terrain has the benefit of freezing, Chill Stacks and some additional control, which is why it's far more useful than Shard of Avalanche which was used a lot with the Singularity.
This is yet another reason why you are biased to a fault. Already four times and counting.
If a class uses it's full rotation and all spells in order to get the effect it needs for the so called BURST damage in a short timespan, it is not considered "a bug", "an error", "An issue" or anything to that effect. It is a part of GAME MECHANICS to which people have adapted.
Even so, you'd still need MORE CWs in order to keep the mobs in check which is the prime reason why you didn't see a lot of other classes, due to a fact that Icy Terrain covers a rather small area of the ground. And even as such, you'd still need three CWs in order to utilize the buff/debuff ratio, since it was a LOGICAL THING to do at the time.
When there are multiple enemies, it is LOGICAL to take the Control Wizard. I hope that you have learned something new today since you are completely PvP oriented player. This is your conclusion and it is not what I've primarily said, which is the reason why you pursue this agenda of yours to a fault, completely avoiding the fact that the Control Wizards are seriously handicapped. If you need 2 CWs to do a job of a 1 CW, then we have a big problem. You will not see the "CLASS BALANCE" as long as Control Wizards can't utilize CC properly and this has nothing to do with the "tree", but more with the fact that the current game mechanics are not CC-oriented, which is why people are not trying to pursue it. If you want to prove otherwise I urge you to use the Singularity at all times and post a video of how efficient your use of singularity is, since you advocate how CC is not dead. If you do not do it, I consider you a liar and a forum fiend who's just trolling on the topic that we all know is correct and true.
In that case you will still see 3 CWs in the party doing the job of a 1 CW since they are effectively complimentary one to another. However as the current meta suggests, you do not see more than one CW, and usually not even that. Current meta is 2 GWF and 1 OP, 1 DC and 1 SW.
The meta is always the fastest possible way to kill/destroy/beat the dungeon. At this point there is nothing that you can agree or disagree upon because you do not understand the concept of "facts".
The fact is that CWs are seriously handicapped and whether you agree or disagree is quite irrelevant. Thank you for confirming that your Control Wizard knowledge is sub-par and I hope that you will not enlighten us with your irrelevant opinions.
I'll be waiting for your singularity videos and your "CC oriented" combat. Let's see how awesome it actually is.
I agree LM set is glitched, but in a game where already CW's cannot compete with GWFs and SWs, I don't understand how fixing it would help "balance" the game. Probably devs have another interpretation of balancing the game!
I like most of @flehstiffer above post (other than the last comment) it shows some data and his point of view on how the lostmauth nerf affected his GWF.
I also think @thefabricant is very passionate about how he/she plays the game and you can tell just look at some of his/her guides, very detailed. I don't think he/she is saying it will be the death of the CW but is passionately try to convey that the nerf will make it harder for (non guilded, primarily solo) CW players with mid range (2500 to 3000 IL) gear and maybe even for some high end (>3000 IL) gear with low-dps specs to find a spot in a group because they no longer have sufficient dps (i.e. do not make up for the loss in overall dps) no matter what else they may bring to the fight. Believe it or not I think these are the CW community's concerns in relation to the lostmauth nerf.
With @flehstiffer data we do see a 19 percent decrease in DPS caused by lostmauth. I saw my overall dps drop by 19 percent for my CW on the test shard against the test dummies. I'm not sure how the 19 percent loss in lostmauth's affect his/her overall dps. If I were to assume that it was only a 19 percent overall dps loss that means that instead of GWF's doing 80-100+ million damage in edemo that they may end up doing 64 to 80+ million. I think that with the lostmauth set nerf, GWF's will still be the top of the dps class and there spot in dungeon groups will be safe.
Can any other striker class make up for the loss caused by this nerf? I can only speculate because I don't play any of the other striker classes (i do play a GWF w/o lostmauth) but i'm willing to bet that the HR's and maybe some SW's will make up for some of that loss. Heck with stuff staying alive longer in group content, the CW might actually see an overall increase in DPS in AOE situations than they did before this nerf. I would love to see ACT data from the preview server from the other striker classes that utilize lostmauth and show us how it will effect them overall. We should get group data for dungeon delves on the test shard and see how all the changes effect those classes that are mid range characters (2500-3000 IL).
The fact remains that in solo situations the lostmauth nerf will result in a overall loss in dps for all classes that use this set. As far as my overpowered CW main is concerned, I will always have a spot in dungeon runs even if the CW were nerfed into dirt because I'm in a active guild that incorporates all play styles. As far as solo content is concerned I think with the 19 % loss I will also still be ok because my CW is overpowered compared to the content. The thing about being an overpowered character (in general) is that it doesn't happen overnight, it doesn't happen in 3 months it took me almost 2 years to get her at this level. Not all people have this kind of time and money to dedicate to a game and get a near BiS character.
The thing is I don't want people to turn away from a character class because it requires a greater time sink than another class to play all the content the game has to offer. Right now I know that there are classes out there that have this problem because of broken tree's, bad mechanics, or bugs that make them very difficult to play and ultimately unwanted for dungeon runs and are actually worse of than the CW.
I only have a simple request and that is if you don't use the set, have only opinion, or just want be harsh maybe your in the wrong part of the forums. I know for the opinion people we saw what you all had to say in the general forums when there was a poll about the lostmauth nerf and quite honestly I don't think it needs to be reiterated here. Constructive feedback will get the ship steering in the right direction. So lets stop the personnel attacks and the class bashing and lets get back to what this thread is about.
How is the lostmauth nerf affecting your game play!
Let's see some data folks! That way Cryptic will be informed on how this potential (highly probable) "fix" is going to affect the game environment for everyone that current uses the set.
Also, where is the Singularity video? So, you agree that the CC is broken, but you do not agree that the Control Wizards are handicapped. In the world where people use brains, that is called a contradiction. Ergo, you contradict yourself.
Do me a favor, stop commenting back to me since I've wasted a LOT of time on you and you still do not want to acknowledge anything at all. In fact, you "laugh" at the Control Wizards utilization of all powers stating "I just use all powers and my life-steal has me going in elol", forgetting that this is exactly what the mechanics imply to do with the burst damage (tick). Exacly this particular "burst damage" has been nerfed, twice now. In the world where people use brains, that's a handicap.
I'm sorry that you believe that there are "real" problems that only fit your perspective, it is not like that and Control Wizards are a DPS class whether you like it or not. End of the story.
Do you remember when they introduced this 66%?
Have you made some ACT for check how much is this 66% in "real" more damage?
Have you think that without the 66% the already low control of the cw will not work anymore?
( think to remove that 66% and try to hit someone with EF with all the actual boons that give control resistance, without considering the elven battle ).
Try to remove the 66%, and check again.
What will be the damage of cw encounter without that?
What will be the control capacity of the cw ? The control are already low WITH that, imagine without.
For you , was better increase all the power, damage, control duration , of 66% for let be the cw competitive and in line with other class? ( and remember that the cw until mod 4 wasn't exactly what u can call "competitive" in pvp, we was just walking meat )or just give them the 66% of piercing tenacity ?
Try to ask to dev to remove it, but then u will necessary redesign all the power for do damage in line with the other class in pvp, u will need to increase the control duration of all the encounter in pvp.
This will work for pvp, and for pve?
For Pve will not work, the damage will be much more high respect the other class, idem for control power.
The move done by dev at that time was probably one of the most correct for balancing the cw in both pvp and pve.
With the 66% of piercing they have made a cw in line with other for damage in pvp, with his control ( not anymore) avoinding to create a BIG unbalance in pve .
Without u will not have the cw in pvp.
And sorry for my eng, I know is terrible
What i dont like? Mmmhhh...user posting some fancy DPS lists.
There's no middle ground. We have NOTHING that makes us stand out now. We were content being a jack-of-all-trades, master of none, before the eLoL nerf, but that's been taken from us.
Here are the classes, as I see them, in terms of usefulness.
1. GF - Uses - Tank, buffer and second-third highest DPS now, godly in PVP.
2. SW - Uses - Top DPS on bosses, speed, easiest class to play.
3. GWF - Uses - Top DPS on mobs, speed, survivability.
4. DC - Uses - Top Healer, buffer, higher DPS potential than CW or TR, almost unkillable in PVP.
5. HR - Uses - Best CC in the game, fastest encounter casts, high survivability, third or fourth in DPS, amazing in PVP.
6. TR - Uses - Good CC, good PVE damage, amazing in PVP.
7. OP - Uses - Tank, healing, temporary group invulnerability, almost unkillable in PVP.
8. CW - Uses - Third best CC, despite it literally being in our class name, 7th best DPS, despite being "Wizards", third best buffers, decent survivability, decent in PVP.
Now, you tell me how any of that adds up to balance for CWs. You give me just one justifiable answer that isn't ridden with bias and I won't retort, but that won't happen, because you logically can't. You've been on this trip saying stuff like CWs are crying over spilled milk, when it's the opposite. We just want to be treated fairly.
We have 3 distinct Paragon paths for a reason. Oppressor should have unequaled CC, but it doesn't. Thaumaturge should have an equal chance at Paingiver, but it's next to last for DPS. Renegade should be on par with HR at least in terms of DPS, but it's not. The trade-offs being Renegades have buffs and HRs have CC. None of that balance exists. We don't want to rule the world. We just want a fair chance of being the best at something. As it stands, we're not even middle of the road anymore.
Also, no matter what you may think a controller/striker isn't supposed to excel at merely controlling, that's just interpreting "controller" literally. Controller/striker classes are supposed to be DPS classes that are good at using AOEs to deal damage, apply debuffs and CC. CW can't be an effective class based entirely on CC because CC is almost irrelevant with current dungeon design. And given that it's taking Cryptic ages just to bring back dungeons with their current designs it's not reasonable to expect them to completely re-design them to make CC effective. That would require massive changes to all classes and you know that will never happen.
Thanks.
So what would the pro/cons be if it was just a flat damage proc? Set it at the highest weapon damage out there (GWF's) and make it work the same for all using it? @amenar is this even something that could be considered or done? Just throwing idea's out there.
As it stands now:
The Lostmauth set takes into account all multipliers that increase your damage that are in play. So we'll take 3000 as your base weapon damage for the entirety of this post. As is, the amount of actual bonus damage you are likely doing per crit. is probably around 25-30k and up to around 60k if the Lostmauth set crits. itself.
Now you may be doing more or less than that but it is generally accepted that atm, the Lostmauth set accounts for around 30-40% of the overall damage a highly geared GWF does.
With the change, which will make the set do as it was intended to, the bonus damage you will do in this scenario is:
3000 per crit. No more, no less.
Before you freak out, do a little test. Remove the horn from your GWF and play for a few hours through normal content. You'll notice that you are still considerably powerful, just not unbalanced-levels of powerful.
Now imagine doing around 10% or so more damage, maybe 15% if you perma-crit.
It's really not that bad.
There is absolutely NOTHING for a decent GWF fighter player to worry about. LM will be in the proper place for them of being a consistent little boost but not ridiculous. Which was the original intention behind artifact sets.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia