ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
edited April 2016
As many have said. Just because you can still tank, or heal. It doesn't matter when your allies drop dead to stray fire and there's no longer a whole lot you can do about it. You can't agro everything, and the healer can't bane EVERYTHING so preventing the party from one shots becomes an issue.
Unlike the care free GF and his KV turning 1 shots to 2 shots.
As many have said. Just because you can still tank, or heal. It doesn't matter when your allies drop dead to stray fire and there's no longer a whole lot you can do about it. You can't agro everything, and the healer can't bane EVERYTHING so preventing the party from one shots becomes an issue.
Unlike the care free GF and his KV turning 1 shots to 2 shots.
I believe OPs need their shield of faith bumped upP to 60% (because its a daily). As a GF KV won't let someone eat consecutive hits. But it will save them from one.
30% will NOT save any dps from a hit, especially in CN.
DP was not the answer, it was a crutch the community has relied on for too long. But I don't want OPs to become undesirable. Make OPs have to build DR and tank stats to become effective tanks like GFs have to, but don't make them obsolete. As a GF I'd rather the OPs continued to play OPs.
Besides, that's real fair. The DC's AS is 40% DR and the DC provides more damage buffs than the heal OP.
heal OP have no party buffs, just heal heal heal
aura of courace bane aura of wisdom thanks.
Bane is single target, and courage won't be helping much if everyone is dead. Not sure many players will survive one shots now in T2s.
Ehm, you can run any T2 without OP even now so I don't think it will be such a messy slaughter.... you can even do CN with GF and DC and without any OP. Besides AS has to be properly placed and party members need to stay within it, while OP defensive powers need no targeting and affect you wherever you are.
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
As many have said. Just because you can still tank, or heal. It doesn't matter when your allies drop dead to stray fire and there's no longer a whole lot you can do about it. You can't agro everything, and the healer can't bane EVERYTHING so preventing the party from one shots becomes an issue.
Unlike the care free GF and his KV turning 1 shots to 2 shots.
I believe OPs need their shield of faith bumped upP to 60% (because its a daily). As a GF KV won't let someone eat consecutive hits. But it will save them from one.
30% will NOT save any dps from a hit, especially in CN.
DP was not the answer, it was a crutch the community has relied on for too long. But I don't want OPs to become undesirable. Make OPs have to build DR and tank stats to become effective tanks like GFs have to, but don't make them obsolete. As a GF I'd rather the OPs continued to play OPs.
If Shield of Faith is buffed back up % wise it would be a good idea to have that and KV have diminishing returns if combined.
DP is pretty broken, but that combo is also pretty over the top.
the problem is they made allmost everything one hit kill so tank will be needed and now they remove OP protecion form it.
they need to adjsut the damage so party can survive bit more then one sec if they go so drastic on OP. (with GF it works ok as long the argo go all on him)
some situations will be fast wipe, edmo you get control for 3 sec and wipe at the same time (and his contorl is unstopable)
need to wait and see.
and @kwsapphire i don't understand the how 1% AP / sec is allmost same as today. i see my AP go after casting HG and Tiamat amulet give the same percentage and its basicly nothing (thats allmost 1.5 min for filling your AP)
have guys lost your minds making the guardian fighters power recharge even quicker you have just made the pvp guardian fighters that are using the stealth rings that much more impossible to beat rethink this or get rid of the stealth rings
This is a great observation, and I know that if I have a good idea there is no chance that it will ever see the light of day in the dev teams conference room but what the heck:
My first response: Take away the stealth ring?? are you crazy?!?! What about the PVE players!!! My brilliant idea: Can they make items that ONLY work in PVE? (i.e. tenacity)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- mrvincent1959 said: The nerf to the Pally bubble was huge. From 20 seconds down to 6. WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh and by the way, my friend who has been struggling to play the Oath of Devotion is so mad at the dev right now I think he is gonna have a stroke! The Oath of Protection was GODLIKE for so long that he would get booted from dungeons cause he could "put up the bubble!" And now that his wish comes true, and you nerf the HAMSTER out of the Protection OP, you hack up the Devotion as well? omg. The way you all talk as if every player has BiS ... then drop nerfs that decimate the "middle class" players... : / srrsly??!
I thought you were gonna work with a scalpel and not a hatchet!!!
I tested my 1,9k Il,boonless no companion OP Prot in IWD. Still unkillable.
The problem was not the bubble...but the Binding Oath+templar's Wrath combo.If these two did not existed in the current form OP would die when cast DP.
It is binding oath combined with the justice tree and templar's wrath massive temp hit point that make a OP immortal.
I was able to permanantly have up 96k temp hit point and cast Binding oath in between.In case B.Oath did not overlap it would chew my temp hit points..not my normal ones.
problem still exists,the changes did not touched the core of the problem.
With a purple DC sigil and a DC ,even after the changes ,Div protector will be 50% up time at least.
Mid tier geared Ops will lose nothing ,the low level ones will take the hit.
Someone needs to test whether OPs can tank orcus with these changes.
Of course they can't.
These nerfs need to come with a class reroll token. No way will I play a Paladin after these changes. Why would anyone want a Paladin in their party over a GF after these changes?
Sorry they can, I tested. I ran CN a couple times without using bubble yesterday just to see. I had to stack bane 3 times before going in and get my wraith up real quick. Once shielding strike is up, I just keep bane and templars wraith, I use burning light as well to get bubble and DV, we did not use bubble at all and it went fine. However, I am at 3.9k at the moment which is mostly dual mixed enchants and i have 3x12 bonding so I am not the typical palidan. Of the three runs we did, I went down once in the beginning because of taking to much damage before wraith shielding.
Still, I think the nerf went to far. I tested as well with a dc, counting 1000-2000, I was able to keep bubble up within 6 secs most of the time, however, I have alot of stuff giving me AP and I built around it (including fire set). So its not easy.
Wait one second. So first you say they can, then you add that you are 3.9k with 3 rank 12 bonding runestones. So are you saying it's as simple as bane and shielding strike even if you are at 2.8k?
CN is rated as 2K. If a 2.5k OP can't tank it then for all practical purposes it can't be done. 3.5K and up outliers don't count as that is extreme gear and shouldn't be required just because they decided to cripple one of the OPs most useful dailies. DP also protects the rest of the party too. How exactly is an OP supposed to protect the part without it? GFs still have KV. So why would anyone want an OP without DP over a GF post nerf?
The primary function of a PvP paladin is to be immortal. To always be on a node so that it takes multiple people to wrest it from him, which gives the rest of his team the numerical advantage on the other nodes. Bubble immortality for the rest of the party was just a convenience.
Normal players won't waste their time on killing the paladin. They'll quickly take the node and leave somebody to stand with OP so that he can't take the node back. So, if you can choose between GF, who is hard to kill, protects party and deals a huge damage and OP, who can... not die and if two enemies take the node and leave somebody, OP will stand on an enemy's node and just... not die... which class will you choose for your party? And bear in mind that GF is able to kill one of the players before they take the node, while for paladin it is possible, but in few cases.
So yeah, OPs will still have something to offer, but maybe they'll have to work a bit for it now, and maybe that will make content a little more fun for everyone else again.
What exactly do you think an OP will have to offer a party? They don't have agro management even close to a GF and they don't have anything like KV anymore. Why would anyone take an OP over a GF after the nerf?
I agree 20 seconds was long, but 6 seconds is too short. It should sum up to 10 or 12 seconds at rank 4. That is still a big difference from 20, especially with the damage that Orcus is dishing out.
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kwsapphireMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 671Arc User
Might be a good news to you then, I am a righteous DC with 15 points in Virt for Haste. BEFORE THE CHANGES: It works amazingly (Not as much AP generated as a true Virt but part members often say that it's actually enough for them). So, yes I would completely suggest your change to eitehr faithful for more heals or righteous for 25% dps buff to party In truth, I've tried Virt before this but I felt that too much AP was wasted and that the 25% buff would have increased the party's effectiveness more than that extra edge in AP that Virt does, so I swapped. It's entirely up to you ofc, just sharing my experience ^^
After extensive testing today with my husband, I will be going full Faithful, with a dabble in Virtuous so I can keep the Battle Fervor (Blessing of Battle grants 15% power) feat. I'm not even going for Gift of Haste, and instead I'm taking the Shared Burdens (splash heal) feat towards the end of the Faithful tree. The AP gain from Gift of Haste was so minor (given my play-style) that the splash heal seems like it will put in a lot more work for the team. Also, Gift of Faith is outstanding. It's wasn't too difficult for me to build up so much extra healing in Gift of Faith that I can heal myself back to full once it pops. And even if I don't get that much stored up, I can get a nice safety blanket in there.
My secondary cleric will be going full Righteous, with a couple of dabbles in Faithful and Virtuous for Resounding Beliefs and Lasting Wishes (10% more healing each). We didn't notice a huge dps increase with a Righteous spec, but I may be able to increase that a bit more with alternate power choices.
If the nerf stays as-is, there's no reason at all for me to go full Virtuous tree any more. People who spread out their encounter powers to keep the AP gain from overlapping too much, either because that's already how they play or because they modify their play-style, may still find the Virtuous tree to their liking. It just won't be my cup of tea any longer.
Oh, I'm so glad for you. But you know, if you want to go pvp or to an epic dungeon, you have to offer something to your GROUP. Paladins offered immortality to other party members, GFs offer huge damage boost and better aggro. What's the point in being immortal if you can't hold aggro, your party fights mobs for too long and in pvp you'll never ever be able to deal as much damage as GF (I've seen GF one-shot a BiS TR that was considered one of the best TRs on our server and I bet no other class except TR would have been able to do that). As a pve TR I'd rather go with GF and choose dps over immortality. And now GFs are still good for buffing group, they can use knight's valor to protect their party and they can hold aggro better. And paladins are... immortal. How amazing for them. I bet there'll be so many people who'll invite them in dungeons.
Have something to offer? In PvP, the OP has been hugely disruptive because of how incredibly overpowered they have been, going on for three modules now. Everyone knows this -- if one team gets an OP that has a clue, and the other doesn't, it's overwhelmingly likely the OP's team will win, other things being equal. Even the nerfed bubble will retain a huge impact in PvP, besides which OPs will remain incredibly tanky and hard to remove from a node that they hold. OPs have been by far the strongest class in PvP for all this time; they will obviously still be able to contribute, and from that perspective, it may even be that additional downward adjustments relatively would be a good thing.
And in dungeons, OPs have turned those into lazy mode, with clown crews being able to do whatever random stuff they wanted, because they couldn't die anyway. There's a pretty big step from making content trivial and boring to being useless. These changes don't bridge that step; however, it may be that it will require a little more effort on behalf of OPs now, and possibly even exploring what other powers and builds for the class can do. There's a lot of things in the class that are very good, just not as overpowered and easy as the bubble meta.
So yeah, OPs will still have something to offer, but maybe they'll have to work a bit for it now, and maybe that will make content a little more fun for everyone else again.
Guess you don't play pal much as your talking pure nonsense. Tr ruled pvp a dc same effect as a pal and Gwfs kill ratio speaks for itself...
Pals without an ability to protect party even if being immortals( whish they are not without bubble) with no dps whatsoever and inferior utility for the group will become obsolete.
There will be no reason for any group to take one in this game any class that comes out third place in buffs and without dps has no room in groups and will simply overlooked when new characters are made its a dead class period.
No doubt was the perma bubble in need of a change (still idc on daily's was the better solution and that is not only for pal class) but the way this changes the class it has to come with a complete overhaul not just the usual stupid enormous nerf bat cryptic used so many times before.
So yea, tell me what the OPs still has to offer a party that is not inferior to everything else you can put in instead of yapping nonsense..
And when it comes to make the content a little more fun for everyone else are you referring to the 3.5+ or the ones between 1.5-2.5 which happens to be the BIG majority of the population..... you know that you could run without pals and have your fun and let others decide whats fun for them or are you just to lazy taking the easy road and then complain about it .....
So yeah, OPs will still have something to offer, but maybe they'll have to work a bit for it now, and maybe that will make content a little more fun for everyone else again.
Oh? I have a pally but I didn't realize I didn't work 'a bit' to get to where I am... I died a lot when i got to level 70, I was spending potions, my Health stone, anything to keep myself alive and I was nervous af that whole week, maybe more. Now I'm not even 3k, but it seems that the mills spent on A snail, the hours and trade bars spent for the Burning Set (and the exasperation, btw, with all those clueless ppl that can't even read in the Fiery Pit), not to mention that my enchantments are as valid and hard worked as any other classes, the legendary artifacts, I did all my dailies in the same way you did it (but slower, of course, since I was a tank), the stupid cubes, all of that shxt.
Oh, but that's not enough maybe? Now it's like the DPS classes, why bring a CW when you can get a GWF? why bring a SW that isn't doing the soul puppet bs? why bring an OP when a GF tanks way better now? A balance and a nerf are 2 different things.
You guys could run without an OP if you so desired to make it more 'challenging', you could try talking to ppl to get an agreement not to use bubbles when PvP (like the drains e.g.) or you could even tell your Pally not to use the bubble through the whole dungeon or skirmish, but no!! You complained so much about the class that now will be nerfed to the ground, congratulations guys... And we took the Virtous cleric to hell with us (what blame did they have... ?)
Ok, I admit that palidans needed a nerf, but as always now you took it too far. How can you ever think to have a balanced game if you always over due stuff one way or another. You need to cut the nerfs in half. Instead of having 20s time, a 10 second time is what is needed, the 50% is fine. But something that last only 6s in a game that is riddled with lag is useless.
The double nerf is a bit excessive. Should have been one or the other.
I have no issue with the OP being class leveled but this borders on insanity. Boss dot can exceede 6 sec without the lag issues coming into play. 10 sec would be a fair drop but 6 is absurd. the damage shift from 80% down to 50% makes ties it with the GF Knights valor (interuptable) permanant encounter with out the benefit of being perma- so this seems like a class killer instead of a fix. Glad I have a gf too, so whatever you do I have a tank that I can run.
Might be a good news to you then, I am a righteous DC with 15 points in Virt for Haste. BEFORE THE CHANGES: It works amazingly (Not as much AP generated as a true Virt but part members often say that it's actually enough for them). So, yes I would completely suggest your change to eitehr faithful for more heals or righteous for 25% dps buff to party In truth, I've tried Virt before this but I felt that too much AP was wasted and that the 25% buff would have increased the party's effectiveness more than that extra edge in AP that Virt does, so I swapped. It's entirely up to you ofc, just sharing my experience ^^
After extensive testing today with my husband, I will be going full Faithful, with a dabble in Virtuous so I can keep the Battle Fervor (Blessing of Battle grants 15% power) feat. I'm not even going for Gift of Haste, and instead I'm taking the Shared Burdens (splash heal) feat towards the end of the Faithful tree. The AP gain from Gift of Haste was so minor (given my play-style) that the splash heal seems like it will put in a lot more work for the team. Also, Gift of Faith is outstanding. It's wasn't too difficult for me to build up so much extra healing in Gift of Faith that I can heal myself back to full once it pops. And even if I don't get that much stored up, I can get a nice safety blanket in there.
My secondary cleric will be going full Righteous, with a couple of dabbles in Faithful and Virtuous for Resounding Beliefs and Lasting Wishes (10% more healing each). We didn't notice a huge dps increase with a Righteous spec, but I may be able to increase that a bit more with alternate power choices.
If the nerf stays as-is, there's no reason at all for me to go full Virtuous tree any more. People who spread out their encounter powers to keep the AP gain from overlapping too much, either because that's already how they play or because they modify their play-style, may still find the Virtuous tree to their liking. It just won't be my cup of tea any longer.
After testing, I will stay virtuous for the time being: my heals are high enough that the regeneration effect looks like the faithful clutch heals. But that's not the most important point because heals are for free both on virtuous and faithful. I rely on battle fervor and weapons of light for high power buff. Moreover mini-GoH + ancient warding + furious intervention work very well on my ap gain and finally on AA by slotting DG only. Ancient warding is another small AP source. I expect to use AA a lot in the near future, more than heals. Heals don't save a team to be 1-shotted, AA does it. I will have to check the real value to be a healer when all these changes go live: if heals are more needed than today, I will keep my current build (GoH is just a minor plus), otherwise I will go rigtheous.
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
I don't think you even got the point, if the immortal Pally takes (2) then someone could maintain the pally in that same spot without even being killed by the pally, then you have a 4v4 going for the points (1) and (3), its a strategy like the ones you guys so much talk about for PvE, and if you lose the other points as well, then the pally is irrelevant for that matter and you deserved to lose anyway.
Normal players won't waste their time on killing the paladin. They'll quickly take the node and leave somebody to stand with OP so that he can't take the node back. So, if you can choose between GF, who is hard to kill, protects party and deals a huge damage and OP, who can... not die and if two enemies take the node and leave somebody, OP will stand on an enemy's node and just... not die... which class will you choose for your party? And bear in mind that GF is able to kill one of the players before they take the node, while for paladin it is possible, but in few cases.
And in order to do what you're describing, those two players must outnumber the OP on a node. Which means that the OP's team should be capping another node, making it an even trade.
Also, since GFs are widely acknowledged as being too strong in PvP, they're not a good basis for comparison in terms of balancing OPs, unless you're trying to imply that OPs should just go from being grossly overpowered to less overpowered, but still overpowered.
So your saying that its ok to nerf pals because GFs are overpovered in PvP jeeeeez logic runs strong in you padawan.....
After testing, I will stay virtuous for the time being: my heals are high enough that the regeneration effect looks like the faithful clutch heals. But that's not the most important point because heals are for free both on virtuous and faithful. I rely on battle fervor and weapons of light for high power buff. Moreover mini-GoH + ancient warding + furious intervention work very well on my ap gain and finally on AA by slotting DG only. Ancient warding is another small AP source. I expect to use AA a lot in the near future, more than heals. Heals don't save a team to be 1-shotted, AA does it. I will have to check the real value to be a healer when all these changes go live: if heals are more needed than today, I will keep my current build (GoH is just a minor plus), otherwise I will go rigtheous.
Indeed, I was able to buff my own AP fairly well, even with the nerf. However I can already recharge my own AP fast enough with the DC artifact and other feats, powers, and abilities. I felt that the paltry AP buff I was giving my team was so useless that more healing would be of far more benefit to everyone else. I'm still disappointed, but relieved that I have another viable avenue to play an effective cleric.
Super ;-/ too much DC is in the game .. Now only waiting for the hour to healer came to queue on the dungeons .. interesting how many DC AP resigns from the game? And the longer it will be waited for queue .. certainly greater interest in this game ..
The cost of replacing equipment may be too big a blow to some players.
Killing Virtuous path does not serve in any way a new players and only irritates experienced players
Sorry for poor English is not my native language.
^THIS! You should want to keep people like me around who love being a cleric, and main one. If you make me have to change all the gear I spent ALOT of time, effort and MONEY on, then I'll be quitting this game because the devs screwed up all my gear progress. This is not a change that can just be adapted to by retraining a character. In order to readjust to make it a strong character again, much of the character's gear needs to be changed (we have gear and enchantments with recovery and AP gain, and will now need to change that to power and critical, and the whole reason I got and refined the Tiamat artifact set was for the AP gain.) Also some of us will need a race reroll token, not just a retraining token, so we can take charisma points (AP gain and recovery) and put them into wisdom (healing.)
You're forcing people who invested in having a well thought out ability score and gear setup, which is perfectly suited to their power/feat build, to adjust on the fly so now they're not built and equipped as would be best for their new build. It takes too much time in this game to get gear, and level artifact gear and enchantments, to expect people to change gear. If it was just a matter of retraining to adapt to the changes, that wouldn't be a big deal, but think about how much people invest in having the right GEAR to compliment the character build. If I have to do that, I'll quit the game. And frankly, you should also want to keep me because I'm a paying customer who has to date spent about $150 on this game and planned on spending more.
In order to make an OP helpful yet not overpowered would have been......10 sec bubble and reduce the one shot kill Damage from trash mobs in T2s....like ETOS. Allow healing to take place...allow other classes to survive w a combo of pally or Guardian taking threat and surviving the threat...a healer healing ...and getting out of the red.
You need to separate PVP changes from PVE changes...based on community feedback...you are listening to only the most vocal not necessarily what is good for the game...just a word of advice from an 8 year City of Heroes player that watched both good and poorly implemented class balance occur.
I also have to say, I put so much work, respecs and everything in my OP: HALF the bubble time, 10 seconds, would have been something I can live with. 6 Seconds is just another hit in the face from the developers in my eyes. Okay, I can still build her more tanky and try to help my teammates there, but I can't tank THAT good anymore, I will do even less damage, because I have to skill more defense, Hitpoints and stuff.... I can't really see how this is fair. Besides I might need to get new armor pieces over again. And people should hget at least a free respec. AD prices are going through the healing, the work of weeks and months is gone and not everyone got the money to respect via Zen, when the changes are going to hit.
Highly disappointed and agreeing, that the OP might need to be nerfed but that was a bit overdone here.
You've killed OP's with this one and made epic dungeons only accessable to the elite. Far too much focus on what OP's are good at with no balance to address where they are poor. Yes the PVE is too easy as an OP, i get that needed changing. However the low DPS on OP's means the solo game pay can take ages and become tedius., if its too hard as well people wont bother.
OP's are also nearly useless in Skirmish, heroic encounters, Tiamat or Demogorgon instances where their protection is not particularly needed and the low DPS just makes the OP a passenger with the result that reaching the gold reward for the team is difficult.
In epic dungeons OP's dont have the DPS to provide much aid in killing encounter creatures, no help at all against end level bosses. OP's only use in epic dungeons is to keep the rest of the party alive, by reducing the bubble so drastically that wont be possible, its not just OP's that will suffer, without their protection dungeons such as epic wolf, cragmire crypts and neverwinter castle will become near impossible unless the team consists of really high ranking charecters only, the game play for mid ranking characters will be killed off as a side effect.
OP's are a self sacrificing character, they never finish first in the rankings in any event, they are always midtable at best as their whole purpose is support. There has to be some payback to make players want to make that sacrifice, and being difficult to bring down, and always being welcome in a party was it.
It feels like a few people have moaned because theyr'e difficult opponents in PVP and these changes are a massive overreaction. What will be the point in a charecter that is really slow, deals no DPS and cant provide any real protection? Why would anyone play that role, why would any team want one in their group? I urge you re think these changes and modify them, otherwise a lot of hard worked on accounts are going to get abandoned in disgust.
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ichimaruginxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 230Arc User
Yup.. that needs to be addressed too! We have lost too much because of unthoughful designs. I still believe a change to GoH is good and badly needed but not a hard nerf, too many direct nerfs w/o thinking of the big picture this time round.
Unfortunately it is a nerf only, that's not a design review: the two things are "slightly" different and that's why the DC, as it is today, is the result of a sequence of nerfs. Making the DC effective is left to the intelligence, creativity and experience of the players and not by design. I'm willing to provide alternatives: "if you touch GoH in this way -> those are the consequences at larger scale on the overall DC design -> you can improve other feats". I don't live for GoH, but I would like to have a virtuous DC playing the role effectively (see damage mitigation as a potential direction for improvements). I'm with @jazzfong: the devs should have a constructive discussion in the Temple forum.
Communication is always the key. And I think I had not convey the message clearly with the word "unthoughful designs" but yes it does equal to a nerf, as you can see in the sentences following that line The best DCs are indeed those that practice "intelligence, creativity and experience". I think we, DCs, as a collective should go for the request/demand for feat changes to Virt. It is like I've mentioned also, very behind the other trees minus the AP. A post in the temple with a link on your suggestions on the changes that could be implemented in the Temple might help since I doubt they trudge through all these posts in this one. I'm all for the GoH changes but also all for Virt Feats rework Hope that clear things up!
Might be a good news to you then, I am a righteous DC with 15 points in Virt for Haste. BEFORE THE CHANGES: It works amazingly (Not as much AP generated as a true Virt but part members often say that it's actually enough for them). So, yes I would completely suggest your change to eitehr faithful for more heals or righteous for 25% dps buff to party In truth, I've tried Virt before this but I felt that too much AP was wasted and that the 25% buff would have increased the party's effectiveness more than that extra edge in AP that Virt does, so I swapped. It's entirely up to you ofc, just sharing my experience ^^
After extensive testing today with my husband, I will be going full Faithful, with a dabble in Virtuous so I can keep the Battle Fervor (Blessing of Battle grants 15% power) feat. I'm not even going for Gift of Haste, and instead I'm taking the Shared Burdens (splash heal) feat towards the end of the Faithful tree. The AP gain from Gift of Haste was so minor (given my play-style) that the splash heal seems like it will put in a lot more work for the team. Also, Gift of Faith is outstanding. It's wasn't too difficult for me to build up so much extra healing in Gift of Faith that I can heal myself back to full once it pops. And even if I don't get that much stored up, I can get a nice safety blanket in there.
My secondary cleric will be going full Righteous, with a couple of dabbles in Faithful and Virtuous for Resounding Beliefs and Lasting Wishes (10% more healing each). We didn't notice a huge dps increase with a Righteous spec, but I may be able to increase that a bit more with alternate power choices.
If the nerf stays as-is, there's no reason at all for me to go full Virtuous tree any more. People who spread out their encounter powers to keep the AP gain from overlapping too much, either because that's already how they play or because they modify their play-style, may still find the Virtuous tree to their liking. It just won't be my cup of tea any longer.
Hey, I'm sorry to hear that part. But on a positive note, I hope you do like the faithful tree after trying it out. And yes, if I try to put ap gain for others on my righteous, I do spread out the encounters and also watch out for when they use their dailies and refill right after to prevent from overflow.
Gift of Faith is just amazing. Sometimes I kinda missed it when in edemo haha. Righteous is more to group buff than to personal dps increase. You will give 10% power and 25% damage increase on target to party with 3 of the feats. There's also a 5% DR buff for party in Virt Tree if you are interested instead of the 10% extra heals, it's called Have Faith. Hope the changes didn't hit you too hard
Hey, I'm sorry to hear that part. But on a positive note, I hope you do like the faithful tree after trying it out. And yes, if I try to put ap gain for others on my righteous, I do spread out the encounters and also watch out for when they use their dailies and refill right after to prevent from overflow.
Gift of Faith is just amazing. Sometimes I kinda missed it when in edemo haha. Righteous is more to group buff than to personal dps increase. You will give 10% power and 25% damage increase on target to party with 3 of the feats. There's also a 5% DR buff for party in Virt Tree if you are interested instead of the 10% extra heals, it's called Have Faith. Hope the changes didn't hit you too hard
Comments
Unlike the care free GF and his KV turning 1 shots to 2 shots.
30% will NOT save any dps from a hit, especially in CN.
DP was not the answer, it was a crutch the community has relied on for too long. But I don't want OPs to become undesirable. Make OPs have to build DR and tank stats to become effective tanks like GFs have to, but don't make them obsolete. As a GF I'd rather the OPs continued to play OPs.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
Besides AS has to be properly placed and party members need to stay within it, while OP defensive powers need no targeting and affect you wherever you are.
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
DP is pretty broken, but that combo is also pretty over the top.
they need to adjsut the damage so party can survive bit more then one sec if they go so drastic on OP. (with GF it works ok as long the argo go all on him)
some situations will be fast wipe, edmo you get control for 3 sec and wipe at the same time (and his contorl is unstopable)
need to wait and see.
and @kwsapphire i don't understand the how 1% AP / sec is allmost same as today. i see my AP go after casting HG and Tiamat amulet give the same percentage and its basicly nothing (thats allmost 1.5 min for filling your AP)
My first response: Take away the stealth ring?? are you crazy?!?! What about the PVE players!!!
My brilliant idea: Can they make items that ONLY work in PVE? (i.e. tenacity)
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mrvincent1959 said:
The nerf to the Pally bubble was huge. From 20 seconds down to 6. WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I thought you were gonna work with a scalpel and not a hatchet!!!
CN is rated as 2K. If a 2.5k OP can't tank it then for all practical purposes it can't be done. 3.5K and up outliers don't count as that is extreme gear and shouldn't be required just because they decided to cripple one of the OPs most useful dailies. DP also protects the rest of the party too. How exactly is an OP supposed to protect the part without it? GFs still have KV. So why would anyone want an OP without DP over a GF post nerf?
And bear in mind that GF is able to kill one of the players before they take the node, while for paladin it is possible, but in few cases.
My secondary cleric will be going full Righteous, with a couple of dabbles in Faithful and Virtuous for Resounding Beliefs and Lasting Wishes (10% more healing each). We didn't notice a huge dps increase with a Righteous spec, but I may be able to increase that a bit more with alternate power choices.
If the nerf stays as-is, there's no reason at all for me to go full Virtuous tree any more. People who spread out their encounter powers to keep the AP gain from overlapping too much, either because that's already how they play or because they modify their play-style, may still find the Virtuous tree to their liking. It just won't be my cup of tea any longer.
Tr ruled pvp a dc same effect as a pal and Gwfs kill ratio speaks for itself...
Pals without an ability to protect party even if being immortals( whish they are not without bubble) with no dps whatsoever and inferior utility for the group will become obsolete.
There will be no reason for any group to take one in this game any class that comes out third place in buffs and without dps has no room in groups and will simply overlooked when new characters are made its a dead class period.
No doubt was the perma bubble in need of a change (still idc on daily's was the better solution and that is not only for pal class) but the way this changes the class it has to come with a complete overhaul not just the usual stupid enormous nerf bat cryptic used so many times before.
So yea, tell me what the OPs still has to offer a party that is not inferior to everything else you can put in instead of yapping nonsense..
And when it comes to make the content a little more fun for everyone else are you referring to the 3.5+ or the ones between 1.5-2.5 which happens to be the BIG majority of the population..... you know that you could run without pals and have your fun and let others decide whats fun for them or are you just to lazy taking the easy road and then complain about it .....
Oh, but that's not enough maybe? Now it's like the DPS classes, why bring a CW when you can get a GWF? why bring a SW that isn't doing the soul puppet bs? why bring an OP when a GF tanks way better now? A balance and a nerf are 2 different things.
You guys could run without an OP if you so desired to make it more 'challenging', you could try talking to ppl to get an agreement not to use bubbles when PvP (like the drains e.g.) or you could even tell your Pally not to use the bubble through the whole dungeon or skirmish, but no!! You complained so much about the class that now will be nerfed to the ground, congratulations guys... And we took the Virtous cleric to hell with us (what blame did they have... ?)
I rely on battle fervor and weapons of light for high power buff. Moreover mini-GoH + ancient warding + furious intervention work very well on my ap gain and finally on AA by slotting DG only. Ancient warding is another small AP source. I expect to use AA a lot in the near future, more than heals. Heals don't save a team to be 1-shotted, AA does it.
I will have to check the real value to be a healer when all these changes go live: if heals are more needed than today, I will keep my current build (GoH is just a minor plus), otherwise I will go rigtheous.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
You should want to keep people like me around who love being a cleric, and main one. If you make me have to change all the gear I spent ALOT of time, effort and MONEY on, then I'll be quitting this game because the devs screwed up all my gear progress. This is not a change that can just be adapted to by retraining a character. In order to readjust to make it a strong character again, much of the character's gear needs to be changed (we have gear and enchantments with recovery and AP gain, and will now need to change that to power and critical, and the whole reason I got and refined the Tiamat artifact set was for the AP gain.) Also some of us will need a race reroll token, not just a retraining token, so we can take charisma points (AP gain and recovery) and put them into wisdom (healing.)
You're forcing people who invested in having a well thought out ability score and gear setup, which is perfectly suited to their power/feat build, to adjust on the fly so now they're not built and equipped as would be best for their new build. It takes too much time in this game to get gear, and level artifact gear and enchantments, to expect people to change gear. If it was just a matter of retraining to adapt to the changes, that wouldn't be a big deal, but think about how much people invest in having the right GEAR to compliment the character build. If I have to do that, I'll quit the game. And frankly, you should also want to keep me because I'm a paying customer who has to date spent about $150 on this game and planned on spending more.
You need to separate PVP changes from PVE changes...based on community feedback...you are listening to only the most vocal not necessarily what is good for the game...just a word of advice from an 8 year City of Heroes player that watched both good and poorly implemented class balance occur.
HALF the bubble time, 10 seconds, would have been something I can live with. 6 Seconds is just another hit in the face from the developers in my eyes.
Okay, I can still build her more tanky and try to help my teammates there, but I can't tank THAT good anymore, I will do even less damage, because I have to skill more defense, Hitpoints and stuff.... I can't really see how this is fair. Besides I might need to get new armor pieces over again.
And people should hget at least a free respec.
AD prices are going through the healing, the work of weeks and months is gone and not everyone got the money to respect via Zen, when the changes are going to hit.
Highly disappointed and agreeing, that the OP might need to be nerfed but that was a bit overdone here.
OP's are also nearly useless in Skirmish, heroic encounters, Tiamat or Demogorgon instances where their protection is not particularly needed and the low DPS just makes the OP a passenger with the result that reaching the gold reward for the team is difficult.
In epic dungeons OP's dont have the DPS to provide much aid in killing encounter creatures, no help at all against end level bosses. OP's only use in epic dungeons is to keep the rest of the party alive, by reducing the bubble so drastically that wont be possible, its not just OP's that will suffer, without their protection dungeons such as epic wolf, cragmire crypts and neverwinter castle will become near impossible unless the team consists of really high ranking charecters only, the game play for mid ranking characters will be killed off as a side effect.
OP's are a self sacrificing character, they never finish first in the rankings in any event, they are always midtable at best as their whole purpose is support. There has to be some payback to make players want to make that sacrifice, and being difficult to bring down, and always being welcome in a party was it.
It feels like a few people have moaned because theyr'e difficult opponents in PVP and these changes are a massive overreaction. What will be the point in a charecter that is really slow, deals no DPS and cant provide any real protection? Why would anyone play that role, why would any team want one in their group? I urge you re think these changes and modify them, otherwise a lot of hard worked on accounts are going to get abandoned in disgust.
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Gift of Faith is just amazing. Sometimes I kinda missed it when in edemo haha. Righteous is more to group buff than to personal dps increase. You will give 10% power and 25% damage increase on target to party with 3 of the feats. There's also a 5% DR buff for party in Virt Tree if you are interested instead of the 10% extra heals, it's called Have Faith. Hope the changes didn't hit you too hard
Join Now! - Infernal Paragons , The Infernal Alliance