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[Mod 8] Master Of Flame Renegade-Oppressor PVE/PVP -Lostmauth- build (DPS + CC + Buff + Debuff)
arcofortep12
Member Posts: 2,265 Arc User
The Jack
This build requires the complete Lostmauth set to make some things really worthy (like Chilling Advantage).
Style of Play:
In PVP you are a striker, a debuffer (Ray of Enfeeblement) and a party buffer (through feats: Bitter Cold gives +5% DPS to all party members against foes affected by Chill, Uncertain Allegiance gives +5% Critical Chance to all party members when you critically strike your targets, Nightmare Wizardry gives to the whole party a 20% chance to achieve Combat Advantage on crits and Chaos Magic gives to the whole party DPS/Healing/Penetration, they kicks in at different times); you can deal very high DPS, just a bit superior to a pure Thaumaturge also equipped with a Lostmauth set, thanks to your high Critical Chance and Critical Severity, still lower (-10%) than a traditional Renegade Spellstorm.
In PVE you deal very high DPS and control the battlefield with cold/arcane powers, you will also buff your mates through multiple feats: Chaos Magic (Healing/Armor Penetration/Damage/Life Steal), Uncertain Allegiance (+5% Critical Chance), Bitter Cold (+5% DPS) and Nightmare Wizardry (a 20% chance to achieve Combat Advantage).
I use the combination of Chilling Presence+Critical Conflagration in PVP and in a party setting for more burst damage against players and mobs, while use the combination Chilling Presence+Swath of Destruction against bosses (+19% more debuff) against bosses. In a slow run (lack of party DPS) I switch to the combination Critical Conflagration+Swath of Destruction against mobs too since the debuff can be useful to the party.
DPS:
Very High on everything (in a Tuern run did 42% the DPS of a GWF with 40% more Power than my toon).
Damage (rough - internal testing IL 2.45k, same Powers, 3 targets, 1 minute long, without Vorpal, superior to Thaumaturge: ~5%):
3.300.000 (standard Spellstorm does 3.600.000)
CC:
Medium to High in PVE, Low to Medium in PVP.
PVP:
High performance.
Standard Spellstorm vs. MoF RO (all things considered equal, rotation plus equipment):
+5% more party DPS (against mobs), + 19% party DPS (against boss, or mobs if party lack DPS) -10%~ personal DPS , +'more relaxed play' (opinable, let's call it 'less button mashing').
Heroic Feats:
Weapon Mastery (3), Toughness (3), Fight On (5), Blightning Power (3), Arcane Enhancement (1), Learned Spellcaster (5), Focused Wizardry (3).
Oppressor Feats:
Bitter Cold (5).
Renegade Feats:
Reaper's Touch (5), Arcane Burst (5), Uncertain Allegiance (5), Phantasmal Destruction (5), Nightmare Wizardry (5), Masterful Arcane Theft (5), Chilling Advantage (5), Chaos Magic (1).
Powers (PVE, both party and solo):
At-Will - Scorching Burst (useful at rank 4 because when AoE deals very good damage) (rank 4)
Encounter (Tabbed) (1) - Conduit of Ice (very high AoE damage, it also adds Chill stacks and will slow down your foes) (rank 4)
Encounter (4) - Ray of Enfeeblement (debuff for big mobs and bosses) (rank 4)
Encounter (2) - Icy Terrain (waste of DPS but necessary to control the battlefield, it briefly immobilize and can freeze targets + adds Chill stacks) (rank 3)
Encounter (3) - Steal Time (CC plus good damage against multiple mobs) OR Chill Strike (modest CC + Chill stacks) OR Entangling Force (good CC against single targets) (3/4)
Class Feature - Critical Conflagration (more burst personal DPS) OR Swath of Destruction (19% debuff for entire party, a must in boss fights) (rank 4)
Class Feature - Chilling Presence (added damage for each stack of Chill plus 10% more Critical Chance) (rank 4)
Daily - Arcane Singularity (spam AoE CC in a large area) OR Oppressive Force (spam AoE CC + an added Daze effect in a very tight area) (rank 3)
Daily - Ice Knife (high single target damage + Prone effect) (rank 3).
Powers (PVE, Boss fight/Demogorgon):
At-Will - Scorching Burst (rank 3)
Encounter (Tabbed, option 1) - Shield (rank 3/4)
Encounter (Tabbed, option 2) - Conduit of Ice (to use in Demogorgon, 1st. phase only) (rank 3/4)
Encounter (1) - Ray of Enfeeblement (debuff for big mobs and bosses) (rank 4)
Encounter (2) - Disintegrate (rank 4)
Encounter (3) - Chill Strike (rank 3/4)
Class Feature - Critical Conflagration (boost DPS and spread Smolder on crits) (rank 4)
Class Feature - Swath of Destruction (19% debuff for entire party, a must in boss fights) (rank 4)
Daily - Arcane Singularity (spam AoE CC in a large area) OR Oppressive Force (spam AoE CC + an added Daze effect in a very tight area) (3)
Daily - Ice Knife (high single target damage) (rank 4).
Powers (PVP):
At-Will - Scorching Burst (rank 3)
Encounter (Tabbed, option 1) - Ray of Enfeeblement (rank 4)
Encounter (Tabbed, option 2) - Shield (if geared and with all PVP boons) (rank 4)
Encounter (4) - Disintegrate (rank 4)
Encounter (1) - Entangling Force (rank 3/4)
Encounter (3) (option 1) - Chill Strike (more DPS, brief CC, add a stack of Chill) OR Repel (far more useful CC against weak targets) (rank 3/4)
Encounter (3) (option 2) - Ray of Enfeeblement (if geared with Shield on Tab) (rank 4)
Class Feature - Critical Conflagration (rank 4)
Class Feature - Chilling Presence (rank 4)
Daily - Ice Storm (Knock + Prone multiple targets) (rank 3)
Daily - Ice Knife (rank 4).
PVE rotation:
Conduit of Ice (high AoE damage, slow foes and add Chill stacks to them), Icy Terrain (add Chill stacks and freeze foes), Steal Time (daze briefly foes), Ray of Enfeeblement against the big one (decrease its damage and its mitigation), Scorching Burst (add Smolder to foes and can provide solid AoE damage, it can add multiple stacks of Arcane Mastery).
PVP rotation:
Ray of Enfeeblement 2x (it stacks, decrease foe's damage and Mitigation), Entangling Force (it Stun an pull your foe in the air), Chill Strike (it briefly Immobilize your foe), Disintegrate (your biggest damage dealer), Scorching Burst (it can add a stack of Arcane Mastery).
Advice:
Boost INT (DPS bonus, Recharge Speed Increase) and CHA (Critical Chance and Combat Advantage Damage) the same, ditch everything else.
Equipment:
Lostmauth's whole set, Vorpal Enchantment, Dusk plus Drowcraft armor set (PVE) OR Grim/Burning armor set (PVP), Ring of Brutality, Drowcraft Assault Ring, Savage enchantments in Offense slots, Radiant OR Dark (if you can gather enough Life Steal to benefit from it) enchantments in Defense slots, Lesser Soulforged Enchantment (PVE)/Negation Enchantment (PVP), Lantern of Revelation (main), Sigil of the Controller OR Wheel of Elements (the latter can be chosen as main instead of the Lantern), Sigil of the Great Weapon Fighter.
Companion:
I consider both a Defender and a Healer good companions for a CW. The Defender, if equipped with a Girdle of the Loyal Defender, will take Aggro off of you with efficacy (very good for solo play, it will also help you while leveling) while a Leader will heal yourself and your party members.
Actually I'm running with a Leader companion, a Battlefield Medic, you can give him a Girdle of the Loyal Commander and/or a Necklace of the Loyal Commander to boost it's healing abilities. It can be a life saver in multiple occasions.
Boons:
Sharandar - Elven Ferocity, Elvish Fury (PVE)/Elven Resolve (PVP)
Dread Ring - Shadowtouch, Rampaging Madness (PVE)/Endless Consumption (if you got enough Life Steal) OR Augmented Thayan Bastion (PVP)
Underdark - Drow Ambush Tactics, Dwarven Stamina
Tyranny of Dragons - Dragon's Thirst
Icewind Dale - Cool Resolve, Winter's Bounty.
Races:
Dragonborn (+4 to any Ability Score, +3% to Power and Critical Strike) and Tiefling (+5% DPS against targets with less than 50% HP, rare chance to gain a 5% damage debuff against an attacker when you get struck) are the best races, buff aren't big so pick the one you like in the game you will have to see its traits everytime.
Example of scale of damage in a Malabog Castle run (IL 2.45k, I was running with another CW so I ditched CoI from TAB and put in Steal Time for added CA and mobility, without another CW in the party I run with CoI on TAB) :
Lostmauth's Vengeance (18%), Rimefire Smolder (12%), Scorching Burst (12%), Steal Time (9%), Ray of Enfeeblement (9%), Disintegrate (9%), Chill Strike (7%), Icy Terrain (5%), Ice Knife (4%), Elven Ferocity (3%), Smolder (3%), Shadowtouched (3%), etc.
Example of scale Damage in a PVP run (IL 2.45k):
Disintegrate (30%), Ice Knife (10%), Elven Ferocity (8%), Lostmauth's Vengeance (9%), Chill Strike (8%), Ray of Enfeeblement (7%), Shadowtouched (7%), Rimefire Smolder (6%), Scorching Burst (4%), Entangling Force (4%), Smolder (3%).
Enjoy.
Feats:
No PVP Boons in place, instead I took all PVE Boons. Dominion run with a 2.45 IL (9k Power, 5k Critical Strike and 3.5k Armor Penetration), those deaths are by people with stats double/triple of mine, that TR and that GF (>3k). Also the SW was a monster (>4k):
This build requires the complete Lostmauth set to make some things really worthy (like Chilling Advantage).
Style of Play:
In PVP you are a striker, a debuffer (Ray of Enfeeblement) and a party buffer (through feats: Bitter Cold gives +5% DPS to all party members against foes affected by Chill, Uncertain Allegiance gives +5% Critical Chance to all party members when you critically strike your targets, Nightmare Wizardry gives to the whole party a 20% chance to achieve Combat Advantage on crits and Chaos Magic gives to the whole party DPS/Healing/Penetration, they kicks in at different times); you can deal very high DPS, just a bit superior to a pure Thaumaturge also equipped with a Lostmauth set, thanks to your high Critical Chance and Critical Severity, still lower (-10%) than a traditional Renegade Spellstorm.
In PVE you deal very high DPS and control the battlefield with cold/arcane powers, you will also buff your mates through multiple feats: Chaos Magic (Healing/Armor Penetration/Damage/Life Steal), Uncertain Allegiance (+5% Critical Chance), Bitter Cold (+5% DPS) and Nightmare Wizardry (a 20% chance to achieve Combat Advantage).
I use the combination of Chilling Presence+Critical Conflagration in PVP and in a party setting for more burst damage against players and mobs, while use the combination Chilling Presence+Swath of Destruction against bosses (+19% more debuff) against bosses. In a slow run (lack of party DPS) I switch to the combination Critical Conflagration+Swath of Destruction against mobs too since the debuff can be useful to the party.
DPS:
Very High on everything (in a Tuern run did 42% the DPS of a GWF with 40% more Power than my toon).
Damage (rough - internal testing IL 2.45k, same Powers, 3 targets, 1 minute long, without Vorpal, superior to Thaumaturge: ~5%):
3.300.000 (standard Spellstorm does 3.600.000)
CC:
Medium to High in PVE, Low to Medium in PVP.
PVP:
High performance.
Standard Spellstorm vs. MoF RO (all things considered equal, rotation plus equipment):
+5% more party DPS (against mobs), + 19% party DPS (against boss, or mobs if party lack DPS) -10%~ personal DPS , +'more relaxed play' (opinable, let's call it 'less button mashing').
Heroic Feats:
Weapon Mastery (3), Toughness (3), Fight On (5), Blightning Power (3), Arcane Enhancement (1), Learned Spellcaster (5), Focused Wizardry (3).
Oppressor Feats:
Bitter Cold (5).
Renegade Feats:
Reaper's Touch (5), Arcane Burst (5), Uncertain Allegiance (5), Phantasmal Destruction (5), Nightmare Wizardry (5), Masterful Arcane Theft (5), Chilling Advantage (5), Chaos Magic (1).
Powers (PVE, both party and solo):
At-Will - Scorching Burst (useful at rank 4 because when AoE deals very good damage) (rank 4)
Encounter (Tabbed) (1) - Conduit of Ice (very high AoE damage, it also adds Chill stacks and will slow down your foes) (rank 4)
Encounter (4) - Ray of Enfeeblement (debuff for big mobs and bosses) (rank 4)
Encounter (2) - Icy Terrain (waste of DPS but necessary to control the battlefield, it briefly immobilize and can freeze targets + adds Chill stacks) (rank 3)
Encounter (3) - Steal Time (CC plus good damage against multiple mobs) OR Chill Strike (modest CC + Chill stacks) OR Entangling Force (good CC against single targets) (3/4)
Class Feature - Critical Conflagration (more burst personal DPS) OR Swath of Destruction (19% debuff for entire party, a must in boss fights) (rank 4)
Class Feature - Chilling Presence (added damage for each stack of Chill plus 10% more Critical Chance) (rank 4)
Daily - Arcane Singularity (spam AoE CC in a large area) OR Oppressive Force (spam AoE CC + an added Daze effect in a very tight area) (rank 3)
Daily - Ice Knife (high single target damage + Prone effect) (rank 3).
Powers (PVE, Boss fight/Demogorgon):
At-Will - Scorching Burst (rank 3)
Encounter (Tabbed, option 1) - Shield (rank 3/4)
Encounter (Tabbed, option 2) - Conduit of Ice (to use in Demogorgon, 1st. phase only) (rank 3/4)
Encounter (1) - Ray of Enfeeblement (debuff for big mobs and bosses) (rank 4)
Encounter (2) - Disintegrate (rank 4)
Encounter (3) - Chill Strike (rank 3/4)
Class Feature - Critical Conflagration (boost DPS and spread Smolder on crits) (rank 4)
Class Feature - Swath of Destruction (19% debuff for entire party, a must in boss fights) (rank 4)
Daily - Arcane Singularity (spam AoE CC in a large area) OR Oppressive Force (spam AoE CC + an added Daze effect in a very tight area) (3)
Daily - Ice Knife (high single target damage) (rank 4).
Powers (PVP):
At-Will - Scorching Burst (rank 3)
Encounter (Tabbed, option 1) - Ray of Enfeeblement (rank 4)
Encounter (Tabbed, option 2) - Shield (if geared and with all PVP boons) (rank 4)
Encounter (4) - Disintegrate (rank 4)
Encounter (1) - Entangling Force (rank 3/4)
Encounter (3) (option 1) - Chill Strike (more DPS, brief CC, add a stack of Chill) OR Repel (far more useful CC against weak targets) (rank 3/4)
Encounter (3) (option 2) - Ray of Enfeeblement (if geared with Shield on Tab) (rank 4)
Class Feature - Critical Conflagration (rank 4)
Class Feature - Chilling Presence (rank 4)
Daily - Ice Storm (Knock + Prone multiple targets) (rank 3)
Daily - Ice Knife (rank 4).
PVE rotation:
Conduit of Ice (high AoE damage, slow foes and add Chill stacks to them), Icy Terrain (add Chill stacks and freeze foes), Steal Time (daze briefly foes), Ray of Enfeeblement against the big one (decrease its damage and its mitigation), Scorching Burst (add Smolder to foes and can provide solid AoE damage, it can add multiple stacks of Arcane Mastery).
PVP rotation:
Ray of Enfeeblement 2x (it stacks, decrease foe's damage and Mitigation), Entangling Force (it Stun an pull your foe in the air), Chill Strike (it briefly Immobilize your foe), Disintegrate (your biggest damage dealer), Scorching Burst (it can add a stack of Arcane Mastery).
Advice:
Boost INT (DPS bonus, Recharge Speed Increase) and CHA (Critical Chance and Combat Advantage Damage) the same, ditch everything else.
Equipment:
Lostmauth's whole set, Vorpal Enchantment, Dusk plus Drowcraft armor set (PVE) OR Grim/Burning armor set (PVP), Ring of Brutality, Drowcraft Assault Ring, Savage enchantments in Offense slots, Radiant OR Dark (if you can gather enough Life Steal to benefit from it) enchantments in Defense slots, Lesser Soulforged Enchantment (PVE)/Negation Enchantment (PVP), Lantern of Revelation (main), Sigil of the Controller OR Wheel of Elements (the latter can be chosen as main instead of the Lantern), Sigil of the Great Weapon Fighter.
Companion:
I consider both a Defender and a Healer good companions for a CW. The Defender, if equipped with a Girdle of the Loyal Defender, will take Aggro off of you with efficacy (very good for solo play, it will also help you while leveling) while a Leader will heal yourself and your party members.
Actually I'm running with a Leader companion, a Battlefield Medic, you can give him a Girdle of the Loyal Commander and/or a Necklace of the Loyal Commander to boost it's healing abilities. It can be a life saver in multiple occasions.
Boons:
Sharandar - Elven Ferocity, Elvish Fury (PVE)/Elven Resolve (PVP)
Dread Ring - Shadowtouch, Rampaging Madness (PVE)/Endless Consumption (if you got enough Life Steal) OR Augmented Thayan Bastion (PVP)
Underdark - Drow Ambush Tactics, Dwarven Stamina
Tyranny of Dragons - Dragon's Thirst
Icewind Dale - Cool Resolve, Winter's Bounty.
Races:
Dragonborn (+4 to any Ability Score, +3% to Power and Critical Strike) and Tiefling (+5% DPS against targets with less than 50% HP, rare chance to gain a 5% damage debuff against an attacker when you get struck) are the best races, buff aren't big so pick the one you like in the game you will have to see its traits everytime.
Example of scale of damage in a Malabog Castle run (IL 2.45k, I was running with another CW so I ditched CoI from TAB and put in Steal Time for added CA and mobility, without another CW in the party I run with CoI on TAB) :
Lostmauth's Vengeance (18%), Rimefire Smolder (12%), Scorching Burst (12%), Steal Time (9%), Ray of Enfeeblement (9%), Disintegrate (9%), Chill Strike (7%), Icy Terrain (5%), Ice Knife (4%), Elven Ferocity (3%), Smolder (3%), Shadowtouched (3%), etc.
Example of scale Damage in a PVP run (IL 2.45k):
Disintegrate (30%), Ice Knife (10%), Elven Ferocity (8%), Lostmauth's Vengeance (9%), Chill Strike (8%), Ray of Enfeeblement (7%), Shadowtouched (7%), Rimefire Smolder (6%), Scorching Burst (4%), Entangling Force (4%), Smolder (3%).
Enjoy.
Feats:
No PVP Boons in place, instead I took all PVE Boons. Dominion run with a 2.45 IL (9k Power, 5k Critical Strike and 3.5k Armor Penetration), those deaths are by people with stats double/triple of mine, that TR and that GF (>3k). Also the SW was a monster (>4k):
- All I say it's just my opinion. Peace. -
- Sunrise Knights are always recruiting active good-hearted players
'Let the Sun shine!' -Post edited by arcofortep12 on
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Thank you.
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Thaumaturge's Time To Shine: A Complete Guide
I am interested, because I do not want newer players speccing into something that isn't performing as promised. If you can provide combat logs demonstrating that your build really does deal more damage than an equally geared thaumaturge, I'll leave you be.
I have no problem with you posting builds, go for it, by all means, but do not mislead players into thinking that it can compete with a properly specced thaumaturge or a CW specced renegade as instructed in ironzerg's build. All I want is the best for the CW community. I'm not trying to pick on you, I just want to see that your claims are backed up by hard evidence. If you keep refusing to prove it, both others and myself are inclined to believe you cannot back your claims up.
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Check out my foundry, titled "Akro's Gone Wacko", featuring our ex-CM Akromatik!: NW-DL8J7BY5T
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Thaumaturge's Time To Shine: A Complete Guide
Let's be respectful when giving constructive feedback and also receiving it. This is a board to help each other out in terms of the CW. I understand we're all passionate about our builds, but let's try not to be overzealous.
Now shake hands and love each other again
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@strumslinger I'd love nothing more to have a constructive conversation, and I did indeed start off that way, but when the thread's OP is so adamantly stubborn that they refuse to listen to an entire herd of experienced CW, and then goes so far as to have the forum mods delete 6 pages of feedback, criticism, and tests done for his build, it kind of makes it hard for us to be all friendly and happy towards eachother. I don't want newer CWs looking for a build to stumble across a build that is not well designed, especially one with an author who refuses to listen to anyone who disagrees with him.
I did really try to avoid being rude and I did attempt to be helpful and constructive, but all I got back from the author were rude and snark remarks, along with complete disregard for what I said. Pretty much everyone else has said the same thing.
I almost always support the moderation and whatnot on these forums, but deleting all criticism on this build is really pushing it a bit. Newer players looking for a build need a way to evaluate whether or not a build is good enough to spec in to, and our comments are what they are supposed to use to judge the build. If every comment that opposes anything the author says at all is deleted, players will be tricked into thinking that this is actually a high DPS, high control, and high buffer build like it claims.
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Check out my foundry, titled "Akro's Gone Wacko", featuring our ex-CM Akromatik!: NW-DL8J7BY5T
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I do think though that as a hybrid build for pvp you would be better served by taking spell twisting instead of taking Arcane Theft and Nightmare. Spell twisting gives you a lot of cool down reduction on your powers in pvp when you use it right and since in pvp getting more encounters out means more control and more damage it ends up being a lot more effective for the following reasons:
- Arcane Theft is only going to buff RoF in pvp, and since RoF is a DoT you get very little burst damage out of it, something that is key in pvp as a CW, your survivability is much less then other classes so bursting your opponent down is a key means of "defense". So the low burst nature of RoF means it's best use really is as a debuff during a team fight, something you can switch to for particular scenarios only. As such, having RoF's damage increased is not going to be a major contribution to winning (or helping to win) a fight/team fight.
- Nightmare Wizardry - gaining CA on a target on 20% of your crits (your crit chance is around 50% right? so that gives nightmare about 10% uptime (50% crit chance times 20% nightmare chance) and CA on an opponent gives you 25% more damage perhaps for 12 seconds (in a team fight it is likely an ally has given you CA against the opponent already). What i am getting at here is that nightmare gives you a very low return on the 5 points spent on the feat.
So taking spell twisting is going to give about a 15-20% increased rate (approximate, practice and the current combat situation will have an effect on this) on using encounter powers which leads in turn to a lot of extra control and damage in PvP. Now, you will have to give up bitter cold to get spell twisting but i feel that is an acceptable sacrifice.
Taking spell twisting in as a PvE build like you have made here also makes sense for the same reasons as for pvp.
Nightmare - You are rarely ever going to be in a group where you do not have a GF or GWF to mark the adds and give nearly 100% up time for CA for the team (thus negating the need for you to have Nightmare) and on the odd occasions you do not have either of those classes in your party it is possible to position yourselves on opposite sides of the mobs and gain CA on them in that manner.
Arcane - In PvE this is a harder feat to turn down because Steal Time is a pretty good encounter. The reasons i gave against needing RoF's damage increased are still valid here but increasing ST by 15% could be a good argument that is only solved by how much of your total damage Steal Time does for your CW. if your total damage is increased more by having ST do 15% more damage then that is the correct feat, but if casting ALL your encounters approximately 15-20% more often leads to a better dps increase then taking spell twisting is the correct choice. Getting more encounters off in the same time frame also means you have better control since your icy terrain and Steal Time are chilling/freezing and stunning more often.
Lastly, what are your opinions on
- Repel as a PvP encounter (very popular currently to help a CW keep melee opponents from closing and being able to deal damage to you, as well as to repel enemies off nodes so you can cap the node) but you don't mention it at all as an option
- Shield on tab, also for pvp. Shield on tab is a pretty strong defense mechanism that you have not listed, I'd like to know how you dealt with having so much damage protection missing? (shield on tab reduces the first incoming hit by 80%, and even when fully depleted shield still protects you with an extra 25% DR)
Also, what do you recommend as a alternative to Shield on tab for PVE boss fights? you only list shield as a tab spell, but with bubble paladins so frequent, as well as KV using GFs one frequently doesn't need the damage protection from shield on tab.
Thanks for your responses.
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1) Race. - not a word about it in guide
By heroic feats its not hard to guess u have choosen Human as ur race. So i would like to know:
- Why this particular race, do u think 3 additional feats can cover other viable races boon.
- What do u think about human preforming compared to a) thefling b) dragonborn. Do u think that 2.5% dmg more from thefling is less than what human offeres with its 3 feats? Do u think that perfect abilities option from Dragonborn + his crit is worse than what human offers?
- Now what would be ur advice in feats allocation to ppl willing to chose something different than human?
2. Arcane Silgurality - u r sugesting it as primary daily. For a Mof. How is it better than Mof daily (Furious Immolation), especialy feated one. As far as i know singu works that way: It suck in mobs, but those with high cc resist r not moved much acctualy, also mobs like BladeMasters in eToS or rage drakes in elol can still use they charge on u and atack u. So even when using singu u still need to keep dodging. Why then not use feated FI?
3. High preformance.
Now, u have 10k power i assume (nowhere close to endgame if u ask me, but nvm) so gwf having 40% more power is 14k right? Which translates at 4k power more = 10% more base dmg. U did 42% of that gwf dmg, which translates as "that gwf did 238% of my dmg". I would like to see act of that run, if its possible, also exact il and stats of that gwf. Acctualy gwf preforming that way is something usual to see. my own gwf is outdpsing fabricant cw by 150% (250% of his dmg) or so. But the true question is how min-maxed that gwf was. There is acctualy way too much bad gwfs, to just say "a gwf did that".
4) Dread Ring feats.
It seems like u r saying Madness is ur primary option. U didnt explained how much acctual boost it gives, so i will do it for u. assuming u r able to hit at least once per second (highest possible preformance) its exactly like this 50s w8 - 10s UP. So Madess is up at best for 1/6 of fight time. So its acctualy boost to ur dmg (or LS) is 1/6*10%= 1.6% overall LS boost or 1.6% overall dps boost. bear in mind u dont have any controll on when it will proc. Now endless consumption: it preforms like this (from my experience) 4 out of 10 LS will be tripled. U my say its 40% to ur LS preformance, but it works good with at least 10% LS. Can u tell me why would u pick up Madness over EC? Especialy since ur advice says "focus on LS"
5) Artifacts.
Artifact became primary part of every player daily basic, but U never mention which artifact would u use as primary. So there goes my question. Which one is best in your opinion? Would u use more self-focused arti like DC sigil to get 100% ap in 15s every 1 min, or Wheel of elements for 30% fire dmg boost. Or something more team focued like Lantern or Banners, or way different artis?
(Sin)cerely
Kain
U call this build for freebies, so it means its build for ppl who cant acctualy invest too much into they toon. If they cant cover some dps/other abilities lacks with high end enchants, they should be able at least cover those lacks to some point with small tweaks like race choice.
There is the thing. Human adds only 2 ability points to ability one choses to boost and offers nothing beside 3 feat points. Now, dragonborn offers 2x 2 free points allocations, so assuming u would chose on both human and dragonborn 2 points into inteligence, as dragonborn u can also add 2 more points in charisma, which equals 2% crit chance more. Also dragonborn has base crit chance incrased by 3%, overall:
Human: 2% dps from int, 3 feats
Dragonborn: 2% dps from int +3% power more, 5% crit more.
there is also tiefling:
2% dmg more from int, 2% crit more if u chose charisma, and 2.5% dmg more from its "5% dmg more on targets under 50% hp" so basicly:
Human: 2% dps from int, 3 feats
Dragonborn: 2% dps from int +3% power more, 5% crit more.
Tiefling: 4.5%dmg more, 2% crit more
There also can be drow as viable race fro cw heavly focused on dots (to multiproc Darkfire), but its not vaible for ur build i guess.
So as u see numbers above, there is quite a bit of difference between top3 races i would consider to make into CW. I strongly belive that race plays a huge role in CW preformance, r u sure im mistaken? Especialy since ur build, s freebie, should be focused on maximalizing preformance by tweaking those cheap options (yes i know, dragonborn comes from DB pack, which is not cheap at all, but there is still tiefling and even drow, since u r mof with plenty dots it can be tweaked to have even more dots to proc Darkfire).
2) About FI. If u would prefer it feated, why dont u chose it (also singu dont prone, there is only short interuption, and most mobs with high cc dont even feel its CC, jsut liek with FI tho, but feated FI at least dazze for pretty long compared to singu)? There is next thing, u could go easly all 3 tiers into opressor and chose 3 great and good preforming feats, Biten, FI and Icy Veins. U r using ST ad IT, so u r always in Icy Veins range, sounds like wasted oporunity to me.
3) Also being on Icy veins, there is many guides, old and new, calling both Icy veins and Spell twisting best feats cw has, u have chose to avoid both, can u tell me what feats u have exctly thought r better than those two, and why? Speel twisting is bascily 30% shorter cooldown on all encounters, and Icy Veins adds in total 6 stack of chill immedietly after u enter in contact with mobs, which means u can keep up perma 6 stack of chill (for me, if im only cw in party, its pretty hard to keep up perma 6 stacks of chill without icy veins, i was runing for a time rene + spell twisting, and no Ivy veins was xtremly painfull, especialy when i needed to drop IT on bosses so gwfs wouldnt die off coz of invisible reds) of them and use full potential of chilling presence. So, in your opinion, which 2 feats r so good, u took them over those 2 amazing, in my opinion, feats?
4) Also back to Madness VS EC, should it not be other way around? Since ur LS is pretty low, would u not prefer to have those rare LS hits be boosted x3 occasionaly? I droped EC on my gwf after i got 20% LS, but i was feeling liek i dont rly need it when i had 10% only, and now when im gulidless and back to 10% LS, i dont rly feel like i need EC, coz normal LS proc r enought. Its my personal expierence, but i feel that more LS u have, EC is less needed (outside of pvp ofc, there both LS and EC r needed always imo)
5) And 1 more word about artis
I also think lanter is pretty great arti as main, but i would say only in zerg runs like tiamat, heralds or demogorgon. WHen u boost only 5 ppl with it, and usualy on 3 of them r dps (tanks/healers having boosted dps by lantern is rly meaningless) its preformance is kinda low, here u have my math:
16% dmg boost for 6s out of 60s (mythic) = 1.6% dmg boost over all, and it affect 3 ppl, so if add this, 3 dps did 4.8% dmg more.
Wheel: 30% dmg boost for 60s = 15% dmg for u.
now lets see herald run with 30ppl and lantern vs wheel:
1.6% x20 (assusming 20 ppl out of those 30 r dps) = 32% over all more dmg done
Now if ur boost yourself with wheel, its still 15% (in most optimal scenario its 30%, if fight last 30s, but then also lantern boost duplicates)
And there ofc r multiscaling interaction with lantern boost and other boost, which can rly make it crazy, since most dps boost is not 1+0.1+0.1 but 1.1 x 1.1.
I hope we understand each other on this.
Also i would like to see this build, since as u sayits high preforming, vs high preforming GWF build liek lazaroth one, i wonder if with equal gear it would be rly gwf 2x cw.
(Sin)cerely
Kain
We are searching for slave labor, will pay with food from our farm!
I dislike the PVP "HIGH PERFORMANCE", for me is absolutly a " LOW PERFORMANCE" , but is just my point of view
Regarding the PVE aspect, well, if u have fun with that, enjoy your game, but , I hope that you don't really think that can't be nothing of better, i think that you still have HUGE way for improve your and yours party DPS.
Just like you posted your build for other, there are build here in the forum posted by other cw that...( is always a possibility ) may be more expert of you and know better how to maxout a cw.
More than one encounter, not more than one rotation. Unless you use a chill free rota, which means that you aren't very good anyways.
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60 seconds with a rotation, it's what? 6-8 attacks ? One crit more here or there and you skewed the entire results, if you filtered the crits you left with nothing of each encounter?
This doesn't sound right to me at all, please post the attacks or the log from this.
And if you test, please do not use a rotation but a single type of attack first to create a baseline. Then a rotation if you want, in a rotation you created random variation that can't be accounted for in the number of attacks you did.
1 minute long is not even close to being long enough for accurate testing. Partner that with the fact there are a TON of other factors that I don't see accounted for here. Such as:
- Boon Procs
- Feat Procs
- Order that you used rotation.
- What enemy you were testing on (Some enemies are bugged)
- Critical Hits
- Artifact Features
- Smolder
- Chilling Presence
- Arcane Presence.
- Weapon Enchant
- Overload Enchantments
- Etc.
When testing, you need to remove these factors using ACT, or by doing testing over a LONG period of time (30 minutes +) to account for these factors.
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We've been asking for screenshots. Please show us the screenshots of the outgoing damage tab for your character in ACT.
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Arco's MoF Thaum Build:
So:
59070483/(11*60+1) = 89365.3298033
My MoF Thaum Build:
So:
54417749/(9*60+20) = 97174.5517857
How does the effectiveness of the 2 builds compare?
97174.5517857/89365.3298033 = 1.08738536521, or, to put it simply, just by making a few changes, his MoF thaum would be doing 10% more damage. Now bear in mind, dummy tests are ideal for his build, they are a situation where the monster has a theoretical infinite amount of life, where you can just keep on bashing and that life pool will never disappear, his build thrives on that, the closest you will get to that in game is a boss fight and nowhere else. Choices like ray of enfeeblement, they are not ideal in a realistic situation because you are trading ray for an encounter power that could just be blasting through enemies anyhow. Furthermore, his build only achieves decent damage if you assume you cannot kill the enemy quickly, because it needs time to build up damage through dots as well as the fact in dummy tests you can do idealistic things like get the benefit from frozen power transfer (which I did not take for my MoF build since in an actual real world environment you not going to get the full benefit).
In the ideal situation, this build performs worse then a build which is designed for actual practical application. How can he improve his build?
1) Swap snap freeze with malevolent surge.
2) Swap Frozen Power Transfer with Icy Veins.
3) Swap Arcane Presence with Swath of Destruction
4) Swap Ray of enfeeblement for Disintegrate
So, why swap out snap freeze? well, because its bonus applies only to the very first hit you do in combat, that means, you literally have to outright kill the opponent on the first hit to get the full benefit. Look at it this way, assuming each hit in combat hits for 10k:
1st hit in combat deals theoretical 11k due to Snap freeze, (chill stack added)
2nd hit in combat hits for 10k
3rd hit deals 10k
Nth hit deals 10k
The damage boost from Snap freeze can be read as (Nc+0.1c)/N
made to look neat this reads: c + 0.1c/N
as N tends to infinity, 0.1c/N gets smaller and smaller and the damage boost from snap freeze tends towards 0.
This means, snap freeze is only good in very short fights, when the theoretical N is very small.
As for frozen power transfer, well, my testing shows that it only ever provides 5% damage bonus, never 10 or 15%. Furthermore, in any realistic test, you not going to be able to continually spam at wills to take advantage of the third hit of chilling presence because spell twisting keeps your encounters off cooldown. The benefit of Icy Veins is that the moment you enter combat, you have 6 stacks of chill and thus all additional hits gain the benefit of 6 stacks of chill.
Arcane Presence is terrible. The way it works is it converts the damage bonus from arcane mastery so that they also work for Cold abilities. So, to make this clear, it firstly does not improve the damage of arcane abilities, only cold abilities when you have arcane stacks. Secondly, the value that it improves it by is 34/67/100/133% of the buff value of arcane stacks, arcane stacks at maximum give 15% increased damage (5 stacks each giving 3% damage). so 133% of that value is 20% increased damage on cold (not arcane) attacks. Thirdly, to get this benefit, you also need to have arcane stacks, this means you need to run arcane powers (in the thaum build, arco uses 2 of them). This means that assuming he can keep up all 5 stacks all the time (good luck with that) and assuming that cold powers make up 50% of his damage (which is super optimistic) then arcane presence is boosting his damage by 10%. Swath of Destruction boosts your damage by 20%. What is the difference between swath and arcane presence? Swath ALSO boosts your allies dps, which means that if you do a relative comparison, arcane presence looks better for personal dps when in reality it isn't. If what you want is personal dps, then swap swath for evocation.
The reason to use disintegrate over ray is it firstly has a short cooldown and secondly it hits very hard. This means you can spam it and keep building stacks of spell twisting, which allows you to continuously reset your cooldowns and continuously spam encounters.
Ultimately, when we say your build leaves a lot to be desired arco, its because we genuinely do know that it is bad, if you don't believe me, I can respec to it on live (I got plenty of free respec tokens from the winter festival) and do my daily elols with kain. We don't do 1 minute of testing, we do hours of testing. Janne (the person who tested disintegrate and showed that your testing was off), myself, katamaster, kain, isaac, romotheone and many others all do a lot of testing and well, if you actually need a comprehensive test done by me for you to realize you are wrong, I am willing to do that, but then you have to be willing to admit that your builds are faulty and have much room for improvement.
1. Please consider my (and others) previous comment about test length.
You go for all the trouble of copying, specing and etc.. And it all 'tarnished' by the length of the test itself.
Why there is so much emphasize on this? Because there is a random element in the attacks that we can't remove, and if you dig into it you will see that the variance is very large.
More so, there are high outliers (like critical strikes). In simple tests usually trimmed mean (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truncated_mean) is used as a simple filter.
In our case because of how the logs work you can filter out the critical strikes, CA and so on. This with a large (the larger the better) sample size should minimize this effect.
The large sample size needed because of LLM (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_large_numbers) all the attacks have a range, but we want the average, and not fall in our test because the skills had low or large streak.
Test length depends a lot of what is the target difference we are looking for, if you test 30% increase the test can be much shorter than a test for 1%.
I'll give an example, in my rotation (I main TR and don't want to swap now) I have DF at 3716-3070, dazing at 13688-11308 and smoke at 3427-2316 damage, you can see that low to high in percentage is from 21% to 48%.
This is significantly higher than the 10% we test for. So we must get as closer to the mean value of the attacks as possible or the result will be the randomness of the skills and not the test subject, because we can't test with fixed values, we are suck with doing lengthy tests, this is the main reason testing is so mind numbing and time consuming, a proper test takes a lot of time.
2. Presentation & proof: Those arguments are repeating, people who tested have doubts, you try to convince otherwise and it ends in flames. Take a look at the best regarded guides out there like kaelacs, for the claims there are numbers and confirmations, you may not know it, but even he asked for double testing and confirmations.
I do not refer to a final conclusion of x dps vs y dps.
Again here, you go all the way to spec, test, and post conclusions, you do it all a lot, in many builds, go the extra 1% work and create a methodology where you can upload the relevant data. Either raw or how you get there. With posting raw shouldn't take time at all, you have the combat log, just upload it, but spread graphs can show a lot more. You can see an example in CA discussions, and many of the older tests. It adds a lot. And honestly it will be much faster and look much better than the attempt do defend unknown test methodology and unknown raw data.
3. I think there is a global confusion here. The damage increase or feat viability was refferd to @katamaster81899's build in a PvE rotation. Not to yours PvP in your build, the other build revolves around stacking chill extremely fast, and I believe the whole discussion is PvE focused.
If I have the time and energy I'll do it on the PvE rotation as it was discussed originally and do an example of what I mean, or hopefully someone else will do it.
Please consider the above, and I think it will save a lot of trouble to everyone.
Edit- while I was typing........ posts have been edited and posts have been made.. looks like I missed the train with this post.
That lists the feats. I am not human, but if I was, the last 3 would go into focused wizardry. Switch from the powers tab to the feats tab to see them.
My Bar is as follows:
Conduit of Ice (tab)
Steal Time
Disintegrate
Icy terrain
Swath of Destruction
Chilling Presence
Furious Immolation
Ice Knife
Chilling Cloud
Scorching burst
How I play it:
Open with scorching burst to quickly apply smolder (only need to do this once, chilling cloud after). Followed by Icy terrain to apply 6 stacks of chill, you then unload encounter powers as desired.
Someone may question: Why?
The reason is that full equipped legendary striker companions can deal 6,000-8,000 DPS while some GFs (specced fully tank) deal about 15,000 DPS.
My level 68 Scourge Warlock with an Damnation Build already deals 20,000 DPS and i rarely play him which mean i am not very familiar with the skill rotation and movement of the class.
And your build, Arco, shows the ACT screenshots with 18,000 DPS and about 14,000 DPS which is not really good, to be openly honest it is kinda rubish for the PvE Aspect of the game.
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Frozen power transfer doesn't even work properly, it doesn't stack more then once, providing a 5% damage buff at most, you can test that yourself since I spent 6 hours testing that 3 days ago (yes, 6 hours!). Prestidigitation isn't a waste, I have a lot more stats then you do, more stats = greater effectiveness, once you have enough stats, prestidigitation becomes good, don't believe me? I can send you some rank 10's on preview and you can test.
If you really want to compare, I am sure one of my chars on preview is still 2.3-2.5k ilvl, we could do something on preview for comparison.
Lets not go into money, soloing or anything, the issue is simple:
I can already see the difference between the test, and you both can see the result you saw in the test and still the conclusion can be wrong.
For starters... the crit chance.. (for the purpose of the explanation I will treat all additional damage that happens on critical hits as critical severity (it can be lostmauth set, feat or anything else)
We can separate all the bonuses and their synergy into two groups then, flat % dps increase and critical severity.
And here comes the difference between the tests, at lower crit chance flat bonus will have better result even for high severity, but as we go there is a cut off point and then it flips.
Here for example (I borrowed a graph from another test I actually did yesterday, and actually game related and tested crit)
Blue will be higher flat % damage increase but lower severity
Red will be lower flat % damage increase but higher severity.
Y axis damage in percentage (blue 0 crit is base).
X axis crit chance fro blue, red has 10 less.
-- important, the graph is to illustrate, for CW with elol set the severity is extremely high
So the gear target (crit chance that is derived from stats) has a significant outcome on this. Combined with crit severity (notice the lol set % in the ACTs - it is crit severity for all we care).
This will be also influenced by ability score and all other modifiers.
If I'll test something it will be only on the weekend.
edit:
Here a more numerically correct graph as example (sorry for the opposite colors from the earlier one I didn't notice and I don't want to remake now):
Both have the same crit chance (X axis) and you can see the damage at Y.
But Rotation and Heroic Feat build is just the same (i only use critical conflagration, but, for sure, on a dragonfight CP is wellcome).
Also, for boss fight, i would use FtF and RoE (icy veins would help keeping chill up) for a even higher result.
The rotation with FtF and RoE show better result the longer combat time is, while Steal time+Icy Trreain is more like a burst (the only wiable burst for MoF, IMO), so it is good if you kill the target in one rotation.
Also, I think, and as micky asumes, this build is very gear and crit dependent, the more crit you have, and the higher DPS multiplier for crit is (crit severity+Losmauth+Critical Conflagration+etc.) the bigger the difference will be.
Off-topic: You've respeced to MoF?