people tend to defend what benefit another name for hypocrisy and that is why we rarely saw a player complain about his main OP until hell, except the good players, btw my hope is lost and argue with these low midset GWF people is lost of time.
sw's hp means nothing when permabubble is in effect.
Few more complains for cover of GWF and I will srsly post here the thing that makes GWF op as HAMSTER and belive me they will nerf it sooner then you could wish. I bet most of you know what I am talking about.
wait, wait, wait...
you put that log of some sure strikes, w/o say the circunstance and "my god now have a big reveal". why dont say first what is that big diferencial instead to just try manipulate the devs about the entire class be broken?
for "legit ways or not" gwf today is not imbalaced like the old cw AND SW, soloing the big majority of the endgame even in low gears. that is the fact. if over the top, the class is imortal and this thigs, dont do terrorism here, dont reveal to people that dont know about and will do a hell until the next module usint that information; show to the devs. your comunity have a personal interest about balanced. and maybe change some broken mechanical for a legit buff!!!
ps: the most bizarre is: no gwf care about buff the main damage trees of main strikers classes. that is just some problem against some class archetype? because i read "cws - players - are smart, gwfs are dumb" or "you can not wait for sorcerer" and so on like if thats matter... is just sad need enter in this forum over and over again, not to discuss the balance, but defend your FUN for that kind of projective player.
sw's hp means nothing when permabubble is in effect.
Few more complains for cover of GWF and I will srsly post here the thing that makes GWF op as HAMSTER and belive me they will nerf it sooner then you could wish. I bet most of you know what I am talking about.
perhaps you should read the other posts i put on this topic.
perhaps you should read the other posts i put on this topic.
like what?
destroyer gwf: 40 % dmg from hidden daggers, 50 % dmg from destroyer capstone, 46.5% dmg from destroyer passive. 15% crit sev, 20% power from defense, 25% power from recovery/arpen, 9 % crit from weapon master after 3 seconds into the fight all these bonuses are active. without any external buffs. without any position requirement,
1 - that is not the entire picture. A gwf that just explore this dont do the damage that you think. even close. you have NO IDEA about what windquake are talk about (or what a i think shes knows).
2 - even considering that, 3 seconds? you know how that capstone and class features works?
i dont even explain why all that is absurd. if you look some fasts runs in strong/agressive partys for example you will see that the gwf just created a big damage advantage during bosses.
about the "off tank thing" you previously receive your response... that conversation is FAR beyond your horizon of consciousness.
From Mods 3-6 GWF was HAMSTER. I got beat by TRs, DPS DCs, you name it. It is about time we get some dignity back. Beaten by a DC?, come on now.
This is pve topic not pvp one. If you got beaten by those classes in pve then it is not class that is wrong here since GWF was dominating m4 very well..
I see an old school BiS pre mod 6 GWF running CN with a GF, DC, and 2 CWs. Yes, back in the days when red spots on the floor weren't something most people worried about.
Still not sure what you're trying to prove since the next 2 vids are of a SW soloing CN.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Most classes are broken OP in some way or another @windquake and whilst I agree at some stage, most of them need to be rebalanced, honestly, at this exact moment in time I would rather the devs worry about the state of the economy then which class hits harder then the rest. (and fyi, if we talking about the hardest hitting taking into account all possible scenarios, its the devotion OP, all other classes come after but thats a whole other can of worms that I am not going into the details of)
see where you said i could have a DC there? it was the gwf, me ( 2.3k dc), and 3 dps who combined did less damage than the gwf.
It's true but to be an "off-tank" he must be able to make the initial pull and eat the damage, without dying, out of empowered astral shield (too easy with immunity on), already at the base iLvL required for the dungeon.
Protecting as a off-tank means the destroyer GWF must be able to eat the damage and survive out of protection, with his own power, and hold aggro when playing with equally geared players.
Besides that, GWF is not invited to dungeons to be an "off-tank" and that role is not wanted or used. Proof is: in the past GWF was way more an off-tank than it is now and when it didn't have top DPS (modules 0-1) he was not wanted in dungeons, period.
What players look for in dungoens is, besides heals/ tank: CC and DPS. GWF got no CC and just bring a clear advantage in DPS for the group or it will be forgotten again. Nobody gives a f. about offtanking, not in the past, not now, they'd rather call a CW for extra CC like they did in the past.
Right now, even if the content is harder than it was in the past (modules 1-5 pre-mobs buff), all classes are wanted. You see in PE players looking for "tank-heal-DPS", generic. In the past modules it was "DC-CW".
So, seriously, the complaints about paingiver sound much like delusional CWs trying to get back their "all in one" top CC+top DPS capability. Which is not gonna happen.
Commandersdata idea of PvE is the one of an old fashioned CW and seriously, PvE right now is like 10x better than in the CW-ruled era. By far. Every class gets the chance to run every dungeon.
GWF and SW are now top DPS and that's what players want from them. But even a TR can bring good DPS and smoke bomb CC so they are called in, even if the class might need a buff to be "top single target DPS" in PvE. HR trapper is called for good DPS and CC. CW is called for good DPS and CC. GF is needed cause now we need tanks in epic dungeons. OP and DC wanted for heals and protection. Everyone got his role, and the improvements needed are elsewhere, not some stupid war to get on top of paingiver.
To be clear: i play my GWF in PvE as a good DPS+ debuff GWF, so i don't really give a f. about paingiver. What i care about is not seeing the class nerfed to trash thanks to some terrible suggestions such as commander's "make top DPS classes only deal 10-20% more than (my) CW". Which would basically roll us back to a CW-ruled PvE scenario. Cause again, why bring a class that deals only 10-20% more DPS when the other can AoE CC lock the mobs.
Off-tank my HAMSTER, sorry if i'm rude, but reading this stuff after 5 full modules of CW reign in PvE makes it clear how petty and selfish some players can be. Do you think a player would call a GWF who can deal "10-20% more DPS" and "off-tank" (arguably), or a CW who can deal almost same DPS and AoE hard CC the whole bunch of mobs, preventing them from attacking? The past modules 1 to 5 tells us they will call CWs only.
So get a clue and ask for the right buffs to the right paths instead.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,251Arc User
edited October 2015
The title of the thread is "Meanwhile in dungeon". That means PVE. I don't understand why someone cares about who did the most damage or not. Is it a competition? Or, is it a cooperation? Everybody does different thing, have different role, have different contribution. Without tank or CC, GWF dies fast up front. The goal is the cooperation to clear the dungeon. The more DPS one can do, the less danger for the whole group. I don't understand why one want want to nerf any class to hurt your own survivability.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
If you take the instigator feat then your missing on powerful challenge (a huge chunk of dps) and will not be putting up numbers like in that combat log. As for warlocks you obviously missed the section where I stated that if you have a problem with your class lacking you should create or try to back up a topic about that, not a "nerf gwf" thread (which is what this obviously is).
Like I said TRs were nerfed in mod 5 because they could do everything cc, damage, pvp better than every other class. The GWF is not in that same position. Instead of nerfing Top end damage give people that play the class a reason to spec into the other trees to provide utility and damage bonuses for the entire group, so you don't need to put up those numbers to contribute. Your arguments don't hold water.
the topic starts with a manipulated "evidence" and fake concern about "balance." Contradicted or in some cases excluded to the general consensus that it accidentally generated (I agree about increasing the damage of other strikers UNDER some circunstances) the mask fell and everything about it is "but wizards, wizards, wizards". Two years of the same HAMSTER ...
I understand why: A certain part of that playerbase is composed of people who really believe that the old success of cws was not due to the fact the class be unbalanced, but because the "wizard player" as the archetype of the class, is more intelligent. So this sense of equality and now normality in that they can not escape can only be explaned in virtue of another class be much more stronger or cw, weak.
official notes not matter, all classes and functions be welcome not matter. Balance is a "superior class like wizard be superior".
The title of the thread is "Meanwhile in dungeon". That means PVE. I don't understand why someone cares about who did the most damage or not. Is it a competition? Or, is it a cooperation? Everybody does different thing, have different role, have different contribution. Without tank or CC, GWF dies fast up front. The goal is the cooperation to clear the dungeon. The more DPS one can do, the less danger for the whole group. I don't understand why one want want to nerf any class to hurt your own survivability.
Thank You.
The single most rational thing that has been said in this whole thread so far.
The title of the thread is "Meanwhile in dungeon". That means PVE. I don't understand why someone cares about who did the most damage or not. Is it a competition? Or, is it a cooperation? Everybody does different thing, have different role, have different contribution. Without tank or CC, GWF dies fast up front. The goal is the cooperation to clear the dungeon. The more DPS one can do, the less danger for the whole group. I don't understand why one want want to nerf any class to hurt your own survivability.
It's basically an e-peen issue. In the past we got real issues, with many classes literally not getting invited to dungeons because one, specific class could both CC and DPS 2x better than any of them. Now we basically have an healthy PvE environment compared to the past. You go in PE and you see lfm requests, looking for ROLES instead of specific CLASSES most of the time, where in the past you could only read lfm *specific class*. Pretty much any class can do its job well enough to get invited. E-peen apart, the discussion should be about pure balance inside the ROLE. SW and GWFs are now pretty much even, but SW needs damage moved from puppet to encounters. TR and DPS HR are behind and i think the roles should be:
GWF-SW primary AoE DPS, secondary Single target DPS or "other" (depends on build) TR-HR: primary ST DPS, secondary AoE DPS or "other" (depends on build).
For example:
Sentinel: Primary AoE DPS, secondary tank/ protector through debuff of enemy's attack Instigator: Primary AoE DPS, secondary utility with consistent damage buff for party
Trapper: Primary ST DPS, secondary CC Combat: Primary ST DPS, secondary party damage buff or enemy debuff Archery: Primary ST DPS, secondary AoE DPS
The CLASS should determine the primary role. The PATH should determine secondary role.
CW MoF: Primary CC, secondary AoE DPS
It's obvious that a trapper will never CC as much as a MoF, and a MoF will never deal as much AoE DPS as a GWF or SW. GWF and SW will never deal as much ST DPS (sustained) as a TR or HR, not even destroyers or fury. TR-HR will never deal as much AoE DPS (sustained) as GWFs/ SWs.
On the other side, an archery HR and a destroyer GWF/ Fury SW should deal overall the same amount of damage, cause Primary AOE DPS/ secondary ST DPS = Primary ST DPS/ secondary AoE DPS. Right now, would be situational depending on content (example: VT would favor AoE DPS, dragon runs or Tiamat would favor ST DPS).
So in the end this would require a rework of a lot of content btw. Dungeons less AoE focused, and a balanced AoE/ Elite mobs component Dragons/ tiamat with a trash mobs/ AoE component or ppl would stack HRs/ TRs and stop.
Wish they would do it but it's unlikely, not in the short term btw. So i'd say for the moment just be happy that all classes are used and wanted in PvE right now and keep the e-peen in your pants...
It's a good thign they do high DPS, because otherwise they would be useless. They provide in almost all cases ZERO cc to a group, they often stand in red and getting other people killed (okay thats more of a player thing) so they should bring that raw damage to the group.
Does this diminish a CW? no way. Also TRs and warlocks can bring damage similar to this, and TRs have much better utility, and warlocks are range AND bring better aoe damage.
Personally, GWF's are my least favourite class to run with in a party, because they don't truly do anything to benefit the party. Every single class except for GWF provides something for the rest of the party, gwf only provides for itself.
*activates daring shout*"rawr" you now have combat advantage and the mobs have less DR you are welcome so yea no benefit at all.... (dont get mad just busting your chops) besides GWF are not support classes we dont buff we just take our reallly big weapon and beats the bad man till they dont move anymore. you want buffs bring a cleric you want enemies to melt in dungeons bring GWF.
I run with a lot fo different classes I have a 3.2k item lev and yes for the most part I can get paingiver in every dungeon ... that being said in my guild we have SW and CWs that I run with and its a toss up who gets paingiver and we are all within a couple mil of each other. what makes GWF seem super OP is the DPS curve you can do sick damage with medium gear where you need almost BiS in other classes to get the same damage. once you run with some good BiS players you will find that there isnt as much a huge difference.
here is what my issue is... this game isnt WoW you dont have a rotation that you spam until its "time to move" in the boss fight. you are always moving and adjusting it adds more of a skill element to the game so just going off numbers isnt getting the whole picture. bad player will be bad dps even in BiS. I dont know how many dungeons I have been in where good geared GWFs are using roar, flourish and punishing charge and spamming WMS. some people just arent good GWFs just like me I am the worst CW ever. my gear isnt bad I have all my boons but I just am not good at it. so you cant look at act and determine OP when skill plays such a high factor in this game
now sure strike.... sure strike is where GWF DPS comes from its about all we have apart from Indomitable battle strike all the rest of our encounters are for buffing sure strike (DS HD ect) our encounters for the most part are weak sauce. Yes massive IBS hits are possible but so are complete misses and if you do thats a wasted 1 second cast time and 14s cooldown. our encounters just arent very good thats why SS hits like it does if it didnt we would do bunk dps.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Personally, GWF's are my least favourite class to run with in a party, because they don't truly do anything to benefit the party. Every single class except for GWF provides something for the rest of the party, gwf only provides for itself.
*activates daring shout*"rawr" you now have combat advantage and the mobs have less DR you are welcome so yea no benefit at all.... (dont get mad just busting your chops) besides GWF are not support classes we dont buff we just take our reallly big weapon and beats the bad man till they dont move anymore. you want buffs bring a cleric you want enemies to melt in dungeons bring GWF.
I run with a lot fo different classes I have a 3.2k item lev and yes for the most part I can get paingiver in every dungeon ... that being said in my guild we have SW and CWs that I run with and its a toss up who gets paingiver and we are all within a couple mil of each other. what makes GWF seem super OP is the DPS curve you can do sick damage with medium gear where you need almost BiS in other classes to get the same damage. once you run with some good BiS players you will find that there isnt as much a huge difference.
here is what my issue is... this game isnt WoW you dont have a rotation that you spam until its "time to move" in the boss fight. you are always moving and adjusting it adds more of a skill element to the game so just going off numbers isnt getting the whole picture. bad player will be bad dps even in BiS. I dont know how many dungeons I have been in where good geared GWFs are using roar, flourish and punishing charge and spamming WMS. some people just arent good GWFs just like me I am the worst CW ever. my gear isnt bad I have all my boons but I just am not good at it. so you cant look at act and determine OP when skill plays such a high factor in this game
now sure strike.... sure strike is where GWF DPS comes from its about all we have apart from Indomitable battle strike all the rest of our encounters are for buffing sure strike (DS HD ect) our encounters for the most part are weak sauce. Yes massive IBS hits are possible but so are complete misses and if you do thats a wasted 1 second cast time and 14s cooldown. our encounters just arent very good thats why SS hits like it does if it didnt we would do bunk dps.
Except that renegade CW is giving combat advantage to the whole party anyhow along with a whole bunch of other stuff.
If you take the instigator feat then your missing on powerful challenge (a huge chunk of dps) and will not be putting up numbers like in that combat log.
I didnt try but new instigator feat seems tons of control, its not that hard to be behind the enemy within a party
@windquake to get to flanking manuvers which is the feat I assume you are talking about you also get Vicious advantage and student of the sword which kinda balances out the damage loss form powerful challenge just so you know. Its better once you get your crit capped where you dont need the extra 5% and 5% dmg as a GWF you should have CA about 80% of the time at least so thats a lot of crit and uptime
@rayrdan you don't have to be behind them just use WMS and it counts as a hit from behind I prone a lot with it. I like it once i get crit capped I will be sad when I spec out of it
Except that renegade CW is giving combat advantage to the whole party anyhow along with a whole bunch of other stuff.
you dont always have a reni CW in your party and besides GWF isn't a buffer its a stiker and like I said we are there to smash things thats what we do we arent buffers or off tanks we kill and kill and kill....
yes I agree as far as buffs go for the whole party all other classes>GWF and thats why we have higher dps
quote: SW and GWFs are now pretty much even, but SW needs damage moved from puppet to encounters. TR and DPS HR are behind and i think the roles should be:
sw's using a bugged pet or the fabled set that is no longer available in the game are equal to a gwf. otherwise its not even close.
quote:It's obvious that a trapper will never CC as much as a MoF, and a MoF will never deal as much AoE DPS as a GWF or SW. GWF and SW will never deal as much ST DPS (sustained) as a TR or HR, not even destroyers or fury. TR-HR will never deal as much AoE DPS (sustained) as GWFs/ SWs.
except gwf's are masters of both AOE and ST dps currently. once the self buffs (destroyer,destroyer capstone,hidden daggers) get rolling nothing even comes close.
romotheoneMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 729Arc User
What the hell, how is a mof better at controlling than an SS? In the past 9 months, I've been play nothing but CW, but I haven't found anything that would support this claim. Do you mean Furious Immolation? Because that skill is just as useless as singularity if used without any control bonus. While the MoF has this skill as a daily, the HR can simply use it 3 times as an encounter.
On the other hand, HRs CC is instant, CW has to build it up over time due to chill stacks.
my main is SW with perfect vorp, 15k power, 11k crit, all boons to dmg. My gwf friend with +- same stats (2k more power 13% less crit sever) does around "same" dmg on small hp single targets. Once there are 3-4 mobs close to each other my friend can overdmg me on single group by 2-4 times. On long range boss fight she usually does 3times more dmg then me on single target.
On module before I was usually doing 5-6x more dmg then my friend ( mostly thanks to bugged Tyranical that was doing insance dmg- yet it was fixed- then it was nerfed ) Now with nerfed Tyranical and creeping by 40% I can't keep up with any gwf - Not even talking about the unfairnes of stuff that I gonna explain soon.
SW in old T2 can do "almost" same dmg as GWF since those set bonuses were OP. You know 2k stackable dmg (usually 25-35 perma stack on target which dmg can be increased by buffs and debuffs to around 4-5k per stack was awesome) now that there are no set bonuses expect artifact sets we are mostly in deep s****.
Now I gonna explain the problem several problems I found thanks to ACT(program that copy your combatlog and make it show stuff pretty nice) GWF is on top because of 3 things: 1)profit from buffs (feats,class features,skills) 2)Lostmauth set bonus 3) paladin aura of courage -1)GWF buffs are too high compare to other classes (several % of crit and dmg which is comparing to several thousands of power (1% dmg is 400 power so if gwf can stack 80% increase dmg then it is what? yes 30k power.) Not even talking about buff from hidden daggers "40% ? srsly?" oh forgot about the armor pe.+recovery=power... -2)Since GWF is about at-will attack now "weapon mastery" which does dmg twice and if your 1st once crit the second one will also crit. Which means this artifact bonus that makes A LOT of dmg will hit TWICE per one use of at-will, and that is not all! Because ever dmg you make is increased by buffs and debuffs and since GWF has biggest buffs in game it is only class that can make this set bonus do 4-5x more dmg then any other class.. SInce my CW does around 20k with this on full buff, I saw several gwf which was doing around 100k just from single crit ( now since weapon master crit TWICE per use then this thing will do dmg TWICE per your at-will...yes that is 4x high dmg from single use of at-will. -3) Idk how is this aura of courage supposed to work but it looks like it proc on several kinds of dmg "not on every dmg". So far by testing with ACT I saw only gwf,hw,tr and some CW that had this as their 2-4th dmg. It doesn't proc from every dmg/crit of SW "dot" but ye it does proc 4 times on gwf at-will which does dmg twice + lostmauth set bonus. * SO with combination of Lostmauth set bonus and aura of courage your dmg will look like this: * 1)Lostmauth vengence 30% * 2)Weapon mastery 25% * 3)Aura of courage 15% * 4)rest of stuff So if company did want to make class that will top dmg because of 1 buff and 1 set bonus and by holding left button on mouse and it will deal 60% of their dmg then there is nothing wrong. Expect the fact that I don't understand why my sw "dot" wont do multiple procs of lostmauth and AoC when gwf does or cw aoes. Wont bring up hw bugged combo since it would take even more text to write.
If my gwf on lvl 60 with 4k power does only 500k less dmg then my SW on 70 in 1 min fight then there is something wrong.., yea if I take my old t2 set bonus I can do 3x more dmg, but I doubt that Arc did plan to have it this way...
the buffs are there because gwf base damage is HAMSTER, fix lostmauth and its done, gwf should do more damage since they dont have luxury of sitting at max range, and if there is a fight that requires movement gwf lose a lot of that damage, i dont really like daggers, i dont think that encounter belongs to gwf, especially as it is ctrlc+ctrlv tr ability with added damage buff, imho gwf has enough buffs/debuffs to track and its an overkill
1 - On module before I was usually doing 5-6x more dmg then my friend ( mostly thanks to bugged Tyranical that was doing insance dmg- yet it was fixed- then it was nerfed ) Now with nerfed Tyranical and creeping by 40% I can't keep up with any gwf - Not even talking about the unfairnes of stuff that I gonna explain soon.
ah, so that is the entire point... you can not overdps another class by 5-6 times because the "new broken class" become old and are fixed...
2 -- if your sw do far less damage than your gwf is YOUR PROBLEM. simple like that. look that channel
no broken set or tree. you have that option and the bugged ones. that gwf friend doing 5-6 less damage than your broken sw during m5, no.
about gwfs.
you speak about wms like if that atwill have some biiiiiiiiiiiig range/radius to hit 5 enemies all the time (you can do that if the controller of the group control and just dont spread everthing in your crazy dps challange).
anyway i dont know what is the point to say why a legit strong class are strong, but you dont know how to read your own act. the biggest point here is: how that gwf can do 8 attacks in 3 secs, each attack w/o any penality, just buff, over buff, over buff on high speed... you have a lot of things that made a gwf do more damage today. and all that is not less, but MORE than spam some HAMSTER dot from range, melting everthing w/o need a defender... like a lot of you guys want back.
ps: leave daggers alone; that HAMSTER crusade against intimidation made sentinels useless. still do that cruzade against daggers ( condescension to whiners or pvp/iv agenda) and see what will happens to destroyers...
the buffs are there because gwf base damage is HAMSTER, fix lostmauth and its done, gwf should do more damage since they dont have luxury of sitting at max range, and if there is a fight that requires movement gwf lose a lot of that damage, i dont really like daggers, i dont think that encounter belongs to gwf, especially as it is ctrlc+ctrlv tr ability with added damage buff, imho gwf has enough buffs/debuffs to track and its an overkill
LOL GWF has good def and can survive some melee attack from normal mobs (most of long range classes expect HR wont survive even one hit in epic dungs) + you got combat advantage when you are close ( which is another + for you) and for last when you hug mob you have 100% chance to hit it, but when you are 40 yards aways and there is 10 mobs between you and boss then try to hit "debuffed" boss and not mobs around. Your logic is incorrect.
LOL GWF has good def and can survive some melee attack from normal mobs (most of long range classes expect HR wont survive even one hit in epic dungs) + you got combat advantage when you are close ( which is another + for you) and for last when you hug mob you have 100% chance to hit it, but when you are 40 yards aways and there is 10 mobs between you and boss then try to hit "debuffed" boss and not mobs around. Your logic is incorrect.
nothing that make sense. but dont ignore the evidences: channel above, entires runs, competitive sw w/o broken sets or bugged tree, module 7. what is the excuse? lets nerf sws too or you just hate gwfs? or maybe nerf both to promote another class, ahn?
that is why bosses are like 5x taller than the other mobs, there are some places where there is no room and range can be an issue, but for most part its a bonus, sine a majority of red attacks hit near the boss, so you can run out of it and dps, gwf has not only evade it, but run back in.
the problem is not in gwf being op, its that gwf gets most of the broken lostmauth set and that there is no content in game for 3k+ ilvl ppl. take a sub3k ilvl gwf without lostmauth and GF tank and ull see there is nothing broken
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you put that log of some sure strikes, w/o say the circunstance and "my god now have a big reveal". why dont say first what is that big diferencial instead to just try manipulate the devs about the entire class be broken?
for "legit ways or not" gwf today is not imbalaced like the old cw AND SW, soloing the big majority of the endgame even in low gears. that is the fact. if over the top, the class is imortal and this thigs, dont do terrorism here, dont reveal to people that dont know about and will do a hell until the next module usint that information; show to the devs. your comunity have a personal interest about balanced. and maybe change some broken mechanical for a legit buff!!!
ps: the most bizarre is: no gwf care about buff the main damage trees of main strikers classes. that is just some problem against some class archetype? because i read "cws - players - are smart, gwfs are dumb" or "you can not wait for sorcerer" and so on like if thats matter... is just sad need enter in this forum over and over again, not to discuss the balance, but defend your FUN for that kind of projective player.
Still not sure what you're trying to prove since the next 2 vids are of a SW soloing CN.
It's true but to be an "off-tank" he must be able to make the initial pull and eat the damage, without dying, out of empowered astral shield (too easy with immunity on), already at the base iLvL required for the dungeon.
Protecting as a off-tank means the destroyer GWF must be able to eat the damage and survive out of protection, with his own power, and hold aggro when playing with equally geared players.
Besides that, GWF is not invited to dungeons to be an "off-tank" and that role is not wanted or used.
Proof is: in the past GWF was way more an off-tank than it is now and when it didn't have top DPS (modules 0-1) he was not wanted in dungeons, period.
What players look for in dungoens is, besides heals/ tank: CC and DPS. GWF got no CC and just bring a clear advantage in DPS for the group or it will be forgotten again. Nobody gives a f. about offtanking, not in the past, not now, they'd rather call a CW for extra CC like they did in the past.
Right now, even if the content is harder than it was in the past (modules 1-5 pre-mobs buff), all classes are wanted. You see in PE players looking for "tank-heal-DPS", generic.
In the past modules it was "DC-CW".
So, seriously, the complaints about paingiver sound much like delusional CWs trying to get back their "all in one" top CC+top DPS capability. Which is not gonna happen.
Commandersdata idea of PvE is the one of an old fashioned CW and seriously, PvE right now is like 10x better than in the CW-ruled era. By far. Every class gets the chance to run every dungeon.
GWF and SW are now top DPS and that's what players want from them. But even a TR can bring good DPS and smoke bomb CC so they are called in, even if the class might need a buff to be "top single target DPS" in PvE. HR trapper is called for good DPS and CC. CW is called for good DPS and CC. GF is needed cause now we need tanks in epic dungeons. OP and DC wanted for heals and protection. Everyone got his role, and the improvements needed are elsewhere, not some stupid war to get on top of paingiver.
To be clear: i play my GWF in PvE as a good DPS+ debuff GWF, so i don't really give a f. about paingiver. What i care about is not seeing the class nerfed to trash thanks to some terrible suggestions such as commander's "make top DPS classes only deal 10-20% more than (my) CW". Which would basically roll us back to a CW-ruled PvE scenario. Cause again, why bring a class that deals only 10-20% more DPS when the other can AoE CC lock the mobs.
Off-tank my HAMSTER, sorry if i'm rude, but reading this stuff after 5 full modules of CW reign in PvE makes it clear how petty and selfish some players can be. Do you think a player would call a GWF who can deal "10-20% more DPS" and "off-tank" (arguably), or a CW who can deal almost same DPS and AoE hard CC the whole bunch of mobs, preventing them from attacking?
The past modules 1 to 5 tells us they will call CWs only.
So get a clue and ask for the right buffs to the right paths instead.
If you take the instigator feat then your missing on powerful challenge (a huge chunk of dps) and will not be putting up numbers like in that combat log. As for warlocks you obviously missed the section where I stated that if you have a problem with your class lacking you should create or try to back up a topic about that, not a "nerf gwf" thread (which is what this obviously is).
Like I said TRs were nerfed in mod 5 because they could do everything cc, damage, pvp better than every other class. The GWF is not in that same position. Instead of nerfing Top end damage give people that play the class a reason to spec into the other trees to provide utility and damage bonuses for the entire group, so you don't need to put up those numbers to contribute. Your arguments don't hold water.
the topic starts with a manipulated "evidence" and fake concern about "balance." Contradicted or in some cases excluded to the general consensus that it accidentally generated (I agree about increasing the damage of other strikers UNDER some circunstances) the mask fell and everything about it is "but wizards, wizards, wizards". Two years of the same HAMSTER ...
I understand why: A certain part of that playerbase is composed of people who really believe that the old success of cws was not due to the fact the class be unbalanced, but because the "wizard player" as the archetype of the class, is more intelligent. So this sense of equality and now normality in that they can not escape can only be explaned in virtue of another class be much more stronger or cw, weak.
official notes not matter, all classes and functions be welcome not matter. Balance is a "superior class like wizard be superior".
Thank You.
The single most rational thing that has been said in this whole thread so far.
In the past we got real issues, with many classes literally not getting invited to dungeons because one, specific class could both CC and DPS 2x better than any of them.
Now we basically have an healthy PvE environment compared to the past. You go in PE and you see lfm requests, looking for ROLES instead of specific CLASSES most of the time, where in the past you could only read lfm *specific class*.
Pretty much any class can do its job well enough to get invited.
E-peen apart, the discussion should be about pure balance inside the ROLE.
SW and GWFs are now pretty much even, but SW needs damage moved from puppet to encounters.
TR and DPS HR are behind and i think the roles should be:
GWF-SW primary AoE DPS, secondary Single target DPS or "other" (depends on build)
TR-HR: primary ST DPS, secondary AoE DPS or "other" (depends on build).
For example:
Sentinel: Primary AoE DPS, secondary tank/ protector through debuff of enemy's attack
Instigator: Primary AoE DPS, secondary utility with consistent damage buff for party
Trapper: Primary ST DPS, secondary CC
Combat: Primary ST DPS, secondary party damage buff or enemy debuff
Archery: Primary ST DPS, secondary AoE DPS
The CLASS should determine the primary role.
The PATH should determine secondary role.
CW MoF: Primary CC, secondary AoE DPS
It's obvious that a trapper will never CC as much as a MoF, and a MoF will never deal as much AoE DPS as a GWF or SW. GWF and SW will never deal as much ST DPS (sustained) as a TR or HR, not even destroyers or fury. TR-HR will never deal as much AoE DPS (sustained) as GWFs/ SWs.
On the other side, an archery HR and a destroyer GWF/ Fury SW should deal overall the same amount of damage, cause Primary AOE DPS/ secondary ST DPS = Primary ST DPS/ secondary AoE DPS.
Right now, would be situational depending on content (example: VT would favor AoE DPS, dragon runs or Tiamat would favor ST DPS).
So in the end this would require a rework of a lot of content btw.
Dungeons less AoE focused, and a balanced AoE/ Elite mobs component
Dragons/ tiamat with a trash mobs/ AoE component or ppl would stack HRs/ TRs and stop.
Wish they would do it but it's unlikely, not in the short term btw.
So i'd say for the moment just be happy that all classes are used and wanted in PvE right now and keep the e-peen in your pants...
Does this diminish a CW? no way. Also TRs and warlocks can bring damage similar to this, and TRs have much better utility, and warlocks are range AND bring better aoe damage.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
so yea no benefit at all.... (dont get mad just busting your chops)
besides GWF are not support classes we dont buff we just take our reallly big weapon and beats the bad man till they dont move anymore. you want buffs bring a cleric you want enemies to melt in dungeons bring GWF.
I run with a lot fo different classes I have a 3.2k item lev and yes for the most part I can get paingiver in every dungeon ... that being said in my guild we have SW and CWs that I run with and its a toss up who gets paingiver and we are all within a couple mil of each other. what makes GWF seem super OP is the DPS curve you can do sick damage with medium gear where you need almost BiS in other classes to get the same damage. once you run with some good BiS players you will find that there isnt as much a huge difference.
here is what my issue is... this game isnt WoW you dont have a rotation that you spam until its "time to move" in the boss fight. you are always moving and adjusting it adds more of a skill element to the game so just going off numbers isnt getting the whole picture. bad player will be bad dps even in BiS. I dont know how many dungeons I have been in where good geared GWFs are using roar, flourish and punishing charge and spamming WMS. some people just arent good GWFs just like me I am the worst CW ever. my gear isnt bad I have all my boons but I just am not good at it. so you cant look at act and determine OP when skill plays such a high factor in this game
now sure strike.... sure strike is where GWF DPS comes from its about all we have apart from Indomitable battle strike all the rest of our encounters are for buffing sure strike (DS HD ect) our encounters for the most part are weak sauce. Yes massive IBS hits are possible but so are complete misses and if you do thats a wasted 1 second cast time and 14s cooldown. our encounters just arent very good thats why SS hits like it does if it didnt we would do bunk dps.
Its better once you get your crit capped where you dont need the extra 5% and 5% dmg as a GWF you should have CA about 80% of the time at least so thats a lot of crit and uptime
@rayrdan you don't have to be behind them just use WMS and it counts as a hit from behind I prone a lot with it. I like it once i get crit capped I will be sad when I spec out of it
you dont always have a reni CW in your party and besides GWF isn't a buffer its a stiker and like I said we are there to smash things thats what we do we arent buffers or off tanks we kill and kill and kill....
yes I agree as far as buffs go for the whole party all other classes>GWF and thats why we have higher dps
TR and DPS HR are behind and i think the roles should be:
sw's using a bugged pet or the fabled set that is no longer available in the game are equal to a gwf. otherwise its not even close.
quote:It's obvious that a trapper will never CC as much as a MoF, and a MoF will never deal as much AoE DPS as a GWF or SW. GWF and SW will never deal as much ST DPS (sustained) as a TR or HR, not even destroyers or fury. TR-HR will never deal as much AoE DPS (sustained) as GWFs/ SWs.
except gwf's are masters of both AOE and ST dps currently. once the self buffs (destroyer,destroyer capstone,hidden daggers) get rolling nothing even comes close.
On the other hand, HRs CC is instant, CW has to build it up over time due to chill stacks.
My gwf friend with +- same stats (2k more power 13% less crit sever) does around "same" dmg on small hp single targets.
Once there are 3-4 mobs close to each other my friend can overdmg me on single group by 2-4 times. On long range boss fight she usually does 3times more dmg then me on single target.
On module before I was usually doing 5-6x more dmg then my friend ( mostly thanks to bugged Tyranical that was doing insance dmg- yet it was fixed- then it was nerfed ) Now with nerfed Tyranical and creeping by 40% I can't keep up with any gwf - Not even talking about the unfairnes of stuff that I gonna explain soon.
SW in old T2 can do "almost" same dmg as GWF since those set bonuses were OP. You know 2k stackable dmg (usually 25-35 perma stack on target which dmg can be increased by buffs and debuffs to around 4-5k per stack was awesome) now that there are no set bonuses expect artifact sets we are mostly in deep s****.
Now I gonna explain the problem several problems I found thanks to ACT(program that copy your combatlog and make it show stuff pretty nice)
GWF is on top because of 3 things:
1)profit from buffs (feats,class features,skills)
2)Lostmauth set bonus
3) paladin aura of courage
-1)GWF buffs are too high compare to other classes (several % of crit and dmg which is comparing to several thousands of power (1% dmg is 400 power so if gwf can stack 80% increase dmg then it is what? yes 30k power.) Not even talking about buff from hidden daggers "40% ? srsly?" oh forgot about the armor pe.+recovery=power...
-2)Since GWF is about at-will attack now "weapon mastery" which does dmg twice and if your 1st once crit the second one will also crit. Which means this artifact bonus that makes A LOT of dmg will hit TWICE per one use of at-will, and that is not all! Because ever dmg you make is increased by buffs and debuffs and since GWF has biggest buffs in game it is only class that can make this set bonus do 4-5x more dmg then any other class.. SInce my CW does around 20k with this on full buff, I saw several gwf which was doing around 100k just from single crit ( now since weapon master crit TWICE per use then this thing will do dmg TWICE per your at-will...yes that is 4x high dmg from single use of at-will.
-3) Idk how is this aura of courage supposed to work but it looks like it proc on several kinds of dmg "not on every dmg". So far by testing with ACT I saw only gwf,hw,tr and some CW that had this as their 2-4th dmg. It doesn't proc from every dmg/crit of SW "dot" but ye it does proc 4 times on gwf at-will which does dmg twice + lostmauth set bonus.
* SO with combination of Lostmauth set bonus and aura of courage your dmg will look like this:
* 1)Lostmauth vengence 30%
* 2)Weapon mastery 25%
* 3)Aura of courage 15%
* 4)rest of stuff
So if company did want to make class that will top dmg because of 1 buff and 1 set bonus and by holding left button on mouse and it will deal 60% of their dmg then there is nothing wrong. Expect the fact that I don't understand why my sw "dot" wont do multiple procs of lostmauth and AoC when gwf does or cw aoes. Wont bring up hw bugged combo since it would take even more text to write.
If my gwf on lvl 60 with 4k power does only 500k less dmg then my SW on 70 in 1 min fight then there is something wrong.., yea if I take my old t2 set bonus I can do 3x more dmg, but I doubt that Arc did plan to have it this way...
1 - On module before I was usually doing 5-6x more dmg then my friend ( mostly thanks to bugged Tyranical that was doing insance dmg- yet it was fixed- then it was nerfed ) Now with nerfed Tyranical and creeping by 40% I can't keep up with any gwf - Not even talking about the unfairnes of stuff that I gonna explain soon.
ah, so that is the entire point... you can not overdps another class by 5-6 times because the "new broken class" become old and are fixed...
2 -- if your sw do far less damage than your gwf is YOUR PROBLEM. simple like that. look that channel
https://youtube.com/channel/UCk2oJGY8kKnD5CzP9-aAi-A
in that special video, a gwf on team do more damage, but not too much. in the others, no chance.
no broken set or tree. you have that option and the bugged ones. that gwf friend doing 5-6 less damage than your broken sw during m5, no.
about gwfs.
you speak about wms like if that atwill have some biiiiiiiiiiiig range/radius to hit 5 enemies all the time (you can do that if the controller of the group control and just dont spread everthing in your crazy dps challange).
anyway i dont know what is the point to say why a legit strong class are strong, but you dont know how to read your own act. the biggest point here is: how that gwf can do 8 attacks in 3 secs, each attack w/o any penality, just buff, over buff, over buff on high speed... you have a lot of things that made a gwf do more damage today. and all that is not less, but MORE than spam some HAMSTER dot from range, melting everthing w/o need a defender... like a lot of you guys want back.
ps: leave daggers alone; that HAMSTER crusade against intimidation made sentinels useless. still do that cruzade against daggers ( condescension to whiners or pvp/iv agenda) and see what will happens to destroyers...
Your logic is incorrect.
Your logic is incorrect.
nothing that make sense. but dont ignore the evidences: channel above, entires runs, competitive sw w/o broken sets or bugged tree, module 7. what is the excuse? lets nerf sws too or you just hate gwfs? or maybe nerf both to promote another class, ahn?
the problem is not in gwf being op, its that gwf gets most of the broken lostmauth set and that there is no content in game for 3k+ ilvl ppl. take a sub3k ilvl gwf without lostmauth and GF tank and ull see there is nothing broken