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windquake
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 134 Arc User
Explain everything, simply "balance"...
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windquake
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 134 Arc User
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I agree they could use some tweaks if it comes to damage sources and overall character complexity - moving some damage from at-wills to encounters would be a good start, since dealing highest damage in game by keeping left mouse button pressed (and sometimes tabbing) is kinda dull.
/Edit:
Im not sure if I remember it well - but arent the numbers on the right the base damage? That means he got an over 2.5x damage increase from external (unless some personal buffs arent count to base damage?) sources - "reroll righteous DC" I would say :P
But to your larger point, it's really hard to have one without seeing a complete data set. If you cherry pick THE BEST few seconds of attacks for any class, I'm sure you'll see some things that make you grimace.
chosen 3 sec with best damage, True/False is probably crit. no info on classes, buffs/debuffs/weapon enchants used by other players and hp of the scorpion(Executioners 30% bonus)
in terms of pve damage GWF is(more or less) in the place where it should have been from the start, only Fury lock(and, maybe, Archer) should be anywhere near. for other classes damage is more or less fine, tr could use a bit more pve burst, and pala could use ability to trade some def for attack to make daily grind faster, but thats another story
hopefully this is non-offensive enough
The opposite situation was true in past mods, the cw did 2x the damage of everyone else and hr,gwf, ... felt useless that time, that was a terrible situation too, so it's nothing new. Everyone wants to feel important to the success of the group and at the moment many members don't feel that way.
It is correct that the gwf is lacking any utility (no healing, no cc, no buffing of other members, no debuffing), but unfortunately we are back at a state where damage is much more important than cc, ... - ok, debuffing is probably the most important.
Let's review the tactics at end bosses and the importance of cc (trash and mini bosses are always quite easy for geared people), because the argument to justify the damage gap between gwf and other DDs is the missing cc:
- elol,mc,vt end bosses: cc irrelevant
- etos end boss: cc quite irrelevant, spiderlings are killed and not locked down by cc, rest is killed in aoe at boss
- ecc end boss: cc quite irrelevant, archers, ... are killed and not locked down by cc, adds are to spread out to cc them efficiently
- gwd end boss: did it only one time, no comment here
I didn't mention the SWs, because there are no active ones in our guild anymore, but in skirmishes I see very high damage from certain and nothing at all from others, so I have no consistent view of that class.
=> My personal opinion: gwf should be highest damage, but at most 20%-30% better than equally geared DDs. Perhaps after a nerf to the lol-set the damage gap is not so huge anymore.
On a personal note, I don't understand the special hate between gwfs and cws, why is there such a great animosity between these 2 classes, they compete for the same spot, but as long as you're avoiding the stupid lfg channel in PE, that should be irrelvant.
You can compare to other party members.
Its an offtank!
It can take a hit, can do initial pull, pick up aggro etc.
Classes like SW/GWF can do 2-2,5 times dmg as other dps classes(HR/TR/CW) in T2/T1 in the same gear.
In mod2 GWFs had imba deep gash and could do big dmg too.
But the difference was it couldn't do double dmg as others.
You guys keep bringing up that this is some "cut" from combat log with no actual info about self buffs etc... It is nice cover "or should I say trick?" from gwf players to say that your class is not OP. C'mon at least get some balls and accept truth. I see ONLY gwf on top of dmg in every instance run ahead by 2-3*multiple of dmg then other classes. Saying that buffs/debuffs arent writen here not really nice excuse. Also the "base dmg" is your base dmg that should be done with your power and armor penetration = if you have any "self buff"(and gwf has alot of selfbuffs) you will deal more then base dmg says ( even without any cleric or tank).
This was cut from elol ( if you think it is just some "cut" ) then you asked for it. I will keep record of gwf since now because this is barely avg. gwf I saw ( yet he did 1mil dmg) I even saw 380k hit in 5man party (ofc with 1 dmg of at-will)
I saw HR beating very good SW but only because in the instance were several groups of mobs which are more profitable for HR then SW
I saw SW doing very good dmg - but only because mobs had a lot of HP and there were no GWF that would kill them in half sec.
CW means "control" wizard so I think he never was supposed to be a "top" dmg, but to buff and control mobs.
TR always felt like pvp character.
GWF can just beat every people in dmg because of two factors- too strong feats and class features ( the self-buffs are srsly on their own level "alot of dmg stacking,crit stacking vs for example H.SW with 20% armor pene and combat adv.-that you can have even without that class feature") and too fast attack. If he just rush mobs do 2 encounters and hit tab and in 2 sec he does 1mil dmg and take half HP of mobs then yes, other classes will lose a lot of dmg. "The best I saw was gwf who did 2,7dmg in around 3-5 sec BEFORE we even get to the mob so no party buffs"
Conq GF can do insane damage, too. W/ buffs/debuffs (self and from party), wisely chosen encounters, class features, dailies and at-wills + proper timing a GF can easily be 2nd/3rd on Paingiver while beeing Immobile Object, too. And GF is main tank (Defender/Controller). I have seen my GF guild mate dealing 200K w/ Crushing Surge and 157k w/ Aggrevating Strike. I have never checked mine but I plan to do it. GWF is a striker (Striker/Defender) and Destroyers are main Strikers. I have no problem w/ their damage.
Edit: just to clarify, my 2 main characters are DC AC/Virt and GF SM/Conq
TRs are usually on the opposite side (at the back) of the boss. They also dodge out of my buffs (DG/AA) regularly. I give up to target them after a few attempt.
CW/SW are so far away - worst thing when behind me - I don't even try to buff them. If I didn't buff/heal they don't get extra AP gain -> this could help them doing more DPS I am sure. And they barely get E-BtS buff (30% damage increase) even in LoL last boss b/c they are too far away. Not to mention AA - I try to chase them to buff them up they dodge away
HRs I don't know. There is only one in my guild I am doing dungeons w/ and he is usually top DPS.
So, do not be so surprised GWFs are so much ahead on Paingiver. They are the most buffed Strikers during dungeons.
And yes, there is the LoL set from which GWFs benefit the most. In Unstoppable state they hit very fast w/ at-wills and each swing counts. While for example TR's Duelist Flury flury attack chain counts as 1 swing. It is b/c there is only Paingiver and Immobile Object (ok, Field Medic, too) on the 'X' panel.
And the Paingiver is technically buged. So was Field Medic.
Paingiver: even if the mob had 1 HP at the killing hit, the whole damage the power would have hit counts (GWF hits harder to lower HP mobs). A 1,5kk killing blow to a 15k HP mob does not help the PT more than a 20k hit.
Field Medic: LS-ed heal counted (from SWs) even if it did not actually heal but I do not see many healer SW around for a while so I do not know if it was working like this now.
On the other hand there is no Support tab (buff/debuff/lifesaver) on the 'X' panel.
HR applied dodge. Where is the tab counts the 'FsC dodge saved you from OHK'?
TR DR debuffs and damage debuff
CW debuffs
I as a DC feel myself important and not b/c of my heals - healing is a side effect in my eyes. I agree w/ you. Plus: CC immunity should not prevent to gain the buff/debuff benefit of skills - did not check if it was true or not, please help me out on this. I agree and disagree w/ you. I agree w/ the 20-30% but there is no need to nerf a set which works fine. Just re-check and fix/fine tune the skills/skill mechanics of other classes like TR SD/SE, CC bonus effects on CC immune mobs. The LoL set seems OK for me - I like it on my GF, too.
At the time of broken deep gash they also stated that the problem was not the overall damage but the mechanic (passive procs). In fact, together with deep gash nerf they tried (and failed) to compensate to, their words, keep the GWF damage where it was.
Get over it guys...
CW is not a DPS class. CWs consider themselves DPS just cause the class was broken for what, 5 modules in PvE. They are primary control and only secondary strikers.
Where you must compare destroyer GWF damage in PvE is:
Fury Warlock
Combat HR
Executioner TR
ANY OTHER CLASS JUST IS NOT MEANT TO BE ON TOP OF PAINGIVER.
Also, when comparing these classes damage you must take into account the type of dungeon.
TR is supposed to be better in boss fights. Should score higher, for example, in dragon runs in SH, Tiamat, and dungeons/ skirmishes with less trash and more elite mobs/ bosses.
GWF would have more overall DPS in a AoE-oriented dungeon like VT, for example, with tons of mobs.
You can ask for a buff of the above paths/ classes (combat HR and executioner TR) if they are not on par with what a DPS Destroyer can do.
Also: GWF base damage is the weaker of all classes. The devs compensated with tons of HAMSTER stacks and self-buffs. Marks are a part of that and come with few risks.
To be honest, Neverwinter has never been as good as it is now when it comes to classes invited in PvE dungeons. You see trapper HRs, CWs, GWFs, GFs, OPs, DCs, SWs, all pretty much used in dungeon runs. Be it for CC, or damage, or protection, all the classes have a place with current "best builds".
CW, HR--->CC, utility
TR---> single target DPS, utility (smoke bomb)
GWF, SW--->AoE DPS, single target DPS
OP,DC--->protection, healing
GF--->protection, utility
So where needed, must ask for buffs to combat HR and exec TR, plus shifting damage of SW from puppet to actual Fury feats/ encounters to bring it on par with destroyers.
A final question: we got 3 CW parties for 5 modules.
Do you see 3 GWF parties required now? No.
All classes are needed and called. Other DPS classes too, are called, You don't read "please GWFs only". Expecially because it depends o the build. GWF gets ahead when using Lazalia's high crit build+ eLoL broken set bonus.
So players don't go straight for the GWF cause they know it's not the base damage but rather a mix of gear and stacks, and a SW or TR can deal higher DPS, if they use eLoL set, than a GWF who is not using eLoL set.
So unless you are a paingiver fetish freak, what is exactly the concern here?
Are you guys unhappy with current all-classes PvE groups?
Want CW to deal same damage as a GWF so we can have again 3 CW groups since they would both CC and deal top damage like in the past?
I hope not.
Before you write anything: i played CW in module 3, and currently play pretty much all classes at level 70 except GF and OP.
SW is now lvl 70 and TR is 62, signature is not upgraded.
I have 0 problems finding groups for dungeons and skirmishes at epic level.
But Ok. Lets say I find 10% more dmg for GWFs acceptable...! lol that was bad players mantra in the past who can't get into groups.
Good players were always welcome in any group! I have every class over 2,5 except HR.
Nice balance. Is your main a CW?
CWs are fine where they are and they'll never get closer to top DPS classes anymore, hopefully. Learn to play your class WAI= you're AoE controller in PvE dungeons, primary role. Your DPS are complementary to those of DPS-only classes/ builds. Have fun.
You choose CONTROL Wizard, not Wizard. GWFs don't ask for "only 10% less CC than CWs".
-No, that was not bad players mantra and any player old enough remembers the "looking for CW" filling every LFG in Protector's Enclave. That CWs were monopolizing dungeon runs is a fact, but nice try.
-Nice to know, then you'll be happy now that every class is needed in dungeons and no more 3-CW-META is there to ruin the fun.
Perfect.
If GWFs would use FLS, Avalanche instead of glasscannon builds it wouldn't be that big difference. Yours GWF I presume? You will be sorry when Sorcerer will be finally released... Lol. How about you and some game fundamentals?
CWs can have dps options as any other classes as well!
then we need a real nuke wizard because I am bored of this!
Nice try? Lol.
I am old enough player too and All I remember that every noob fotm GWFs claimed to be the best dps which they were but they died after 10 secs before bosses....
So unfortunatelly we didnt have time for 'em
It was their mantra...
and why gwfs hate cws and vice-versa: the first because they are so much stupid and the second for they are vry smart ( there must be some psychological relationship that).
in my view any excess affect the experience of the game ANY excess and excess are needed adjustments no matter who gets hurt gwf, cw, op or any other class that may have one or more functions no behaviors/roles and mimimi
in the background all this anguish and all the reciprocal hatred comes from bad decisions taken and broken paingiver that imposes one stupid competition among the players .
and sorcerer isnt a CONTROL wizard
but seems like some CW wont ever get over the fact that CW isnt the only class in game anymore
Not gonna happen again, hopefully.
His attempt to deny that fact is funny too, considering 99% of the playerbase, many CWs included, agreed on that for over 4 modules.
Thanksfully at least in PvE, the devs learned the lesson and now there is no class that can monopolize epic dungeons the way CWs did in the past.
Proof of that: in the past, PvE discussion were filled with complaints about how CWs were too much and how difficult it was for other classes to find a spot in epic dungeons runs. Now nobody complains about that except, obviously, some sad old CW missing their all-in-one top AoE DPS+AoE CC.
PvE is healthy now in terms of overal lclass balance/ availability, 1000000000 times better compared to the module 1-2-3-4 days during the CW rule. Only issue left, and complaints you read, is the lack of more dungeons/ content, and the difficulties some fresh lvl 70s in some classes find in solo content, after the mobs buffs.
All that's left is probably to just balance the other 3 main DPS paths (combat HR-Exec TR-Fury SW) to be on par or closer to Destro GWF crit build, if it's needed.
For the great regret of FOTM players nerfs and buffs come and go for module to module in All MMOs !
Gwfs were up in mod 2,6,7; Sw in mod 4,5,6,7; TR,DC in mod 5 etc but who knows what will happen.
If you think the double dmg of GWFs will be permanent you are for a big suprise!
Have fun!
Just to be correct, do not forget about the GWF era when GWF was dps and tank (quite OP beeing good in both).
But I agree, GWF is in healthy state at the moment in PvE dps point of view (at least Destro). The other striker classes need some fine tuning (and bugfix i.e. TR SD).
GWF should be undisputed leader in tank and spank fights, while some of the other classes should take over if we ever get a dungeon that doesnt consist of simply standing still and bashing your face against boss and does require moving and switching targets
exec TR would probably a pita to balance with consideration of pvp, imho its role would better be in removing some more annoying adds asap than sustained dps