Exec should be undisputed when it comes to burst single target on elite mobs and bosses, like in old module 1 days when 1 TR was brought to dungeons specifically to burn bosses down fast and the TR in the final fight was placed on the boss. It should be made quite clear the difference that 1 exec TR should make in speeding up the death of a boss. Dunno however how this could be achieved without breaking the class in PvP, but considering they need a buff in PvP too...a good start would be a buff to executor builds in damage.
Yeah archer HR for PvE is probably the main DPS build, combat more for PvP perhaps or, like exec TR, single target DPS/ boss killing.
I'd say combat HR and exec TR clearly superior to GWF in single target burst, so Destro GWF would be primary DPS on multiple targets and secondary DPS on single target, and same for SW Fury. SW Fury should be at same DPS level as GWF Destro, same role.
GFs, OPs, DCs and CWs are fine the way are now. They all are the choice when it comes to their role. CW and trapper for CC, interchangeable, DC to heal, GF to tank, OP in the middle to basically do both.
Btw, right now you read in lfg stuff like "lfm tank" or "lfm healer" or "lfm DPS" where in the past every old player can remember it was specifically "lfm CW" or "lfm DC". Period. This is a fact and is a sign that PvE balance is close. Only underperforming paths need love now, but each class with the current "BiS" path have a specific, and required, role. Much better than in the past.
Only players with a paingiver fetish really have issues in PvE now.
If i have to point out the top priority i'd say SW should have PvE DPS placed on Fury path and taken away from...well...bugged puppet XD
The rest is balancing paths, but that goes for every class. GWF too with sentinel/ instigator paths being useless.
give to a combat hr the same damage a destroyer gwf is able to bring to the table and then i will call their damage balanced... right now not even my full rank 12 pve specced executioner tr (3.85K ilvl) can stay on par with 2.6k gwfs.
You can say a thousand times that PVE balance is fine! It is not!
FYI In other MMOs dps classes balanced to have 10-20% difference in dps!
You can bring your white lies all you want the fact that GWFs/SWs does 2-2,5 times dmg in T2s and 2 times dmg in Tiamat which results are not acceptable! They reached it with the mod6 overbuffs and various imbalanced mechanics.
Lets see facts! 1. No class should have 40% buff as hidden daggers! Too high!
2. No class should have stackable buffs w/o any time limit! As destroyer, weapon mater Destroyer's purpose buffs! Too high!
3. No class should have 100-200k dmg from at-wills! Too high!
4. No class should have 2-4 million+ dmg from encouters and daily as IBS/Crescendo! Too high!
If you bring up TRs its not really good for your case because GWFs shouldn't have bigger single target dmg as TRs in the first place!
stock and stone I can master, but there's a Wizard to manage here!
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Personally, GWF's are my least favourite class to run with in a party, because they don't truly do anything to benefit the party. Every single class except for GWF provides something for the rest of the party, gwf only provides for itself.
Personally, GWF's are my least favourite class to run with in a party, because they don't truly do anything to benefit the party. Every single class except for GWF provides something for the rest of the party, gwf only provides for itself.
But the damage they dish out more than makes up for it. I've seen extreme cases where a GWF totalled up to 90% of the party's dps (successful run with no wipes). I know that they were uber GWFs in pugs, but still I have yet to see anything even remotely close to it with other classes. (it's not like uber players of other classes don't pug as well every now and then). One could say the others didn't know what they were doing, and it may be true, but there's the fact that monsters were nearly dead before they could even begin their rotation -.-' I hate it when they do Daring Shout, since it's an AoE taunt, but apparently it's a large part of their DPS, so I can't really shout them to stop using it lol.
So Mr. commanderdata wants a world where GWFs deal 10%-20% more DPS than classes that also bring CC, utility, buffs and debuffs to the table. Under his comment 2 players pretty much say that if it wasn't for their damage, they wouldn't invite a GWF to a dungeon.
Self explanatory. Commander, your suggestions are pure nonsense. Sorry.
@klangeddin : yes, DS mark is a big source of GWF DPS. Like Hidden dagger and the other buffs. Cause GWF base damage is HAMSTER. Devs made it this way: a low-damage class that needs to pile up self buffs to deal real damage.
So Mr. commanderdata wants a world where GWFs deal 10%-20% more DPS than classes that also bring CC, utility, buffs and debuffs to the table.
your suggestions are pure nonsense. Sorry.
If you put the emotions aside, I think commanderdata is right.
Currently, each class is really good at something. There wouldn't be a problem with this, but each class also has 3 feat trees that allow them to choose a specialization. If a CW is supposed to control and only control, why is there a 2nd tree that only focuses on personal damage. Or a 3rd that gives personal and group damage. The developers obvious wanted classes to have mechanics that serve these specializations and let the players decide, by choosing a feat tree to determine their primary focus. Saying that "a certain class has to do this and this, because that's exactly how it was in an outdated state of another game within the same franchise" is just narrow-minded.
Hunters can choose between focusing on ranged damage, melee damage or control. Wizards can choose between focusing on control, personal damage or team damage(which again boosts personal damage) GWFs can choose between focusing on dueling, aoe damage and tanky traits.
In my opinion, giving classes multiple roles - thanks to the feat trees - is better than assigning a single role to a class. What is required, heavily depends on the challenges the current content demands. If a class is able to adapt to new demands, that's good from a players perspective.
That being said, if a class is really good at something, but the 2 other roles are lacking, the different types of challenges in future content can heavily influence balance without the devs touching the classes themselves. A GWF has utility and control, but it's limited. The class is able knock down a single target, keep it prone for some time. Going into the Instigator tree, you are able to pick up many interrupting effects that help you pick and shut down a target for quite some time through constant slowing and prone. The Instigator's Vengeance capstone however... is definitely counter-productive in a 1v1 situation (both PvE and PvP) because while the whole tree allows you interrupt and not get hit, the capstone requires you to get hit at least every 6 seconds. So it's lackluster, right? But it's there, along with the Sentinel tree to support it. It exists and it is a playstyle that can used in certain situations to contribute to party play.
The exact same thing applies to pretty much every class. There are roles that are just more effective or more essential, considering the current challenges we are facing. I'm sure that once Dread Vault is introduced again, with the now scaled-up monster strenght, you'll see CWs knocking monsters down cliffs, instead of suffering through long fights with medium to tough monsters which take really long to kill.
Players are using these class arguments against each other for the wrong reasons. You guys aren't fighting for balance, you guys want to prove you are right because you take criticism towards your class as a personal attack.
Just a random idea - what would happen if Paingiver score were calculated differently - damage caused by debuffs would go to debuffer score, rather than person that benefited from it. For example TR uses 3 stacks of Wicked Reminder on the target (24% increased damage for whole party). GWF does 1000000 base IBS hit, thats rised to 1240000, because of the debuff - 1000000 goes to GWF paingiver and 240000 to TR. More complex situation - CW Rene capstone increases party damage by 30% and TR Wicked Reminder places -24% DR debuff. GWF does 1000000 base IBS hit - its increases to 1300000 by CW and then to 1612000 by TR - GWF gets 1000000 of this hit, CW gets 340000 and TR gets 272000. Sure, it wont happen, because its complicating thing thats actually simple and not all buffs can be calculated that easily - for example + crit chance formula from other part of Rene capstone would be different than simply stripping flat amount of damage done, but would need to take into consideration GWF crit severity and his current crit chance - not happening. But its how I, personally, calculate dps utility.
I dont have a GWF - I have an exe TR, Prot OP and now am highly enjoying High Prophet Righteous DC (seriously this is amazing - I recently came late for WoD dragons and saw it going down without me for some time but once I arrived and placed my buffs on allies/debuffs on him he started going down SO much faster - I wouldnt achieve that even with a freaking 300k power GWF and I have 1.9k iLvl with him) but yet I dont think they are OP, because when assembling party I take them AFTER other roles are taken. It is not even remotely close to mod 2 CW, where even when there already were 3 of them in party I felt like taking 4th would be the best choice. Currently I dont feel GWF is a mandatory and having more than 1, max 2 is going to be a burden. I would prefer to run eCC (legit) with Tank + Healer + 3xCW/HR/TR, rather than 3xGWF - provided they know what they are doing because this is another major case with GWFs - they are the most simple class in game to achieve ok-ish DPS - just spam at-wills, thats all. That is why they are "the safest" PuG dps, because its much higher chance you get an, at least, ok-ish GWF, than HR/TR/CW - they need to know a lot more what they are doing to achieve good numbers. I strongly side with thefabricants statement here.
GWf only damage? How about using their idk offtank capabilities maybe? Taking aggro, kiting? No?
Obviously only well fed GWFs/SWs are satisfied with current meta or "balance" and everything is fine with 'em.
Oh wait! No! They constantly open topics for more buffs or "tune"...
Offtank capabilites? Are you serious? Aggro is taken mainly by damage, not by mark for sure. Sentinel is supposed to do that but can't, cause sentinel damage is so low that aggro goes to another DPS and mark on GWF is not as powerful as GF's for obvious reasons. GWF cannot offtank epic dungeons. Wanna try? Do this:
Destroyers can't "offtank" anything in an epic dungeon. It's more durable in solo content and PvP. In epics, you can't offtank with a destro. And there's no need of it. You either have a GF or a paladin.
Try to go to eCC with only a DC, a GWF destroyer and 3 other DPS. And ask the GWF to "offtank".
Sentinel is supposed to do that at the cost of most of destro DPS. But even Sentinels have such poor aggro capabilities and survivability in epic dungeons, that you don't see any "GWF offtank" around.
Destroyer right now is pure DPS. But if you got a Destroyer GWF mate who can offtank eCC please i want to run the dungeon with him to learn. Or if you can do it yourself.
you're wrong. I talk about balance. As i said, i actively play most classes in PvE too. You talk about sentinel and instigator. You know why these paths were left to rot by the GWF community? Cause they don't do the job they are supposed to do.
Sentinel can't keep aggro from DPS classes, can't tank enough in epic dungeons, and brings mediocre damage to the group. Instigator...are we really discussing the viability? I used an instigator build for a long time in module 4. It's capstone works only in PvP. Rest of the path simply underperforms and brings less CC and utility than a CW, trapper HR, even TRs can bring more utility than instigator. On top of that, capstone in PvE works poorly. You just don't get hit enough in PvE to build stacks, stacks disappear quickly and in epic dungeons, if there's a tank (usually there's one) you don't get hit at all, so bye bye capstone and DPS.
It's true each class have "paths", it's also true each class has a role, so the paths are meant to shift your contribution to a party a bit, but leaving you inside your specific role. A conqueror GF cannot DPS as much as a SW or GWF or even CW. It's a tank class. And a Sentinel cannot tank as much as a GF.
Or else, there would be no point in using different classes. You don't go GF to be a DPS. You don't go CW to be a DPS. You don't go GWF to CC or tank.
Right now most classes have a "BiS" path that performs well, and 2 other paths that perform poorly.
Example, GWF:
Destro path is focus on monster damage, brings nothing else to a group with good peace of commander's "offtank" dream. Any player knows that since module 6 destroyers can't offtank in epic dungeons. They're just less squishy then a SW, but far from being an offtank.
Sentinel is supposed to be the offtank. You should deal "decent damage", and at the same time bring something else--->protection. I would achieve that by making GWF Sentinels AoE debuffers, debuffing the enemy DPS on an area. So DC+Sentinel migh become a choice together with Paladin+4 DPS, or DC+OP, or DC+GF, OP+GF and so on.
Instigator should have DPS in between destroyer and sentinel, bringing group DPS buffs to compensate.
So, what would happen is that a GWF using a different path would bring something that allows the group to shift composition, but keeping them inside their main "class role". So even a sentinel, for example, must dish out more DPS than a conqueror GF in a dungeon run, while a conqueror can tank where a sentinel only "mitigates" the damage directed towards the group.
Right now, instead, Sentinel is a loss of DPS with aggro mechanics and survivability that don't work good enough. Instigator is a mess of basically some utlity/ self buffs that are supposed to look like something "tactical", while it's just a loss of DPS over destroyer, complemented by underperforming and unpractical mechanics.
Destroyer, like fury SW or executioner TR, is the DPS spec of a DPS class. These paths must make a difference when it comes to DPS or it's pointless to bring them. 10-20% doesn't make enough difference when someone else can add heavy AoE CC, or debuff, or group buffs/ debuffs.
So yeah, you have "paths", but you have classes too. And there's a reason, you know. Why a GF is a tank class and GWF is not a tank class. Different paths allows you to have more "combos". Example: right now you can have DC+OP, or DC+GF. Basically: DC+tank. Or OP+4DPS. You can't go with GF+4DPS right? But what if, for example, Sentinels were able to "debuff" AoE the enemy's damage, like i said above? And may be buff the team's lifesteal? You could go in an epic with, for example:
GF Sentinel GWF CW 2xDPS
and basically complement the GF tank capabilites not with healing/ protection, but with CC and debuff to enemy damage (i would make a Sentinel able to debuff mobs damage by 50% piling up multiple debuffs).
So for example: DS, 25% AoE debuff to enemies damage added to current effect. Come and get it: 15% AoE debuff to enemy damage added to current effect. 15% debuff each (DS+Come and get it). 30% total AoE damage debuff. Effect added through advanced feats. I'd also add a range buff through advantage feat on DS-CaGI.
As you see, now you have more variety but keeping a role for each class. If you lack DC/OP, you can go for GF/Sentinel/CW. CW AoE CCs--->GWF AoE debuff+small pull with CaGI--->GF grabs aggro.
On a side note: GWF damage also comes from eLoL set overperforming on crit builds. There are reports of 500k procs from the set...It's based on weapon damage so it's easy to see why it favors the GWF class.
Also: you can't really accuse me of not seeking balance. Back in module 2 and 3, when GWF was clearly overpowered, i was together with ayroux and others, among the GWF who advocated for nerfs to the class.
I am just against nonsense suggestions that would make the class useless and unwanted in PvE. And it's not even like it would touch me much since i run PvE with my awesome guild mates. But i see how commander's suggestion to make destroyer/SW damage "10-20% more than other classes" would destroy these classes.
Post edited by pando83 on
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Personally, GWF's are my least favourite class to run with in a party, because they don't truly do anything to benefit the party. Every single class except for GWF provides something for the rest of the party, gwf only provides for itself.
But the damage they dish out more than makes up for it. I've seen extreme cases where a GWF totalled up to 90% of the party's dps (successful run with no wipes). I know that they were uber GWFs in pugs, but still I have yet to see anything even remotely close to it with other classes. (it's not like uber players of other classes don't pug as well every now and then). One could say the others didn't know what they were doing, and it may be true, but there's the fact that monsters were nearly dead before they could even begin their rotation -.-' I hate it when they do Daring Shout, since it's an AoE taunt, but apparently it's a large part of their DPS, so I can't really shout them to stop using it lol.
I don't really run in pugs and in premade groups with really good gwf's and really good other dps classes, the difference between a gwf and a SW for example isn't that great. Furthermore, the difference between a good CW and a good GWF at a similar gear level is about 20-40% (going off ACT, not paingiver) which tbh, is a fair amount but still, the bonus utility provided by the other classes to the entire party likely outweigh the benefit of having a GWF. This is especially true at lower gear levels where a GWF is more squishy, for example, when doing a 2K eCC, the GWF will have to be really careful with taking damage in order to not die but still build up unstoppable and will have to be careful around traven. Where as the TR's dodge mechanics provides them with a failsafe and can help them to stay in the fight. At higher gear levels though, this is not so much an issue.
GWF is a late bloomer, it is really strong at bis level, but below average at low gear level, smth i warned devs about quite some time ago in one of those always ignored "class changes" thread on preview
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
There is a huge DR debuff on the mob. As wentris wrote it was ~150% DR debuff (~2.5xbase damage). Just to note it is not even a really huge number - I am not sure if Mark benefit was shown as base damage or dealt damage.
Conq GF can do insane damage, too. W/ buffs/debuffs (self and from party), wisely chosen encounters, class features, dailies and at-wills + proper timing a GF can easily be 2nd/3rd on Paingiver while beeing Immobile Object, too. And GF is main tank (Defender/Controller). I have seen my GF guild mate dealing 200K w/ Crushing Surge and 157k w/ Aggrevating Strike. I have never checked mine but I plan to do it. GWF is a striker (Striker/Defender) and Destroyers are main Strikers. I have no problem w/ their damage.
Edit: just to clarify, my 2 main characters are DC AC/Virt and GF SM/Conq
I can confirm this i have hit 1 time 3mill anvil of doom in ETOS also i have done more then 2 mill knee breaker.
GF can be top paingiver. Almost eq to GWF and SW. But SW and GF can give party buffs in the mean time GF can protect reduce pt members dmg taken and tank propperly also if he have slug or ap DC he can immune to dmg almost all time.
BTW just saying the top score tiamat and Stronhold dragons always ruled by renegade CW's . Cuz CW's can heal controll do dmg and buff the pt or the massive zerg swarm.
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited October 2015
For reference to accuracy of information, please do not post anything regarding paingiver or who got the highest ranking in tiamat, etc. Those figures are wildly inaccurate when it comes to comparing dps and give a false sense of what is actually happening. I can give you an example of why:
Paingiver does not measure dps, it measures hit points removed. This means that the player who kills the little adds first will have a higher paingiver rating then everyone else, because everyone else will have fewer targets to hit. In the case of CN in mod 5, I liked to rush and run ahead of the group, this means that I always had the highest paingiver rating on my CW because my icy terrain landed before anyone elses and killed all of the random things, leaving them with only the big stuff remaining. Did I have the highest dps? Heck no, other players had much higher dps but it didn't matter to paingiver because I removed the hitpoints on the weak monsters first.
Paingiver in the end inflates the differences between playstyles of players and gives a wildly inaccurate figure and the figures on tiamat are just drawn out of a hat by cryptic devs and mean nothing anyhow so they cannot be used to draw any form of statistical significance.
So when comparing classes dps, you cannot use paingiver, you should be using something like ACT. You also got to remember that some classes like CW can deliver their damage in a burst, where as other classes like SW need to do things like build up buffs or soul sparks and this changes how much "health they remove" in boss fights vs fighting random adds.
edit* Just realised this is my 1000th post....damn I post here way too much.
lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
edited October 2015
I think something that has to be taken into account is whether these GWFs are running with the Lostmauth set (which they probably are). The set bonus is just accounting for way too much damage with most classes. Even CWs that use that set blows my HR (who doesn't have the set) out of the water in dungeons. Fix (read: nerf) that set bonus and we will see more parity between some classes damage-wise.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
Well SW is kinda dead since he got useless class features ( which doesn't work ) and a lot of skills taht arent doing what they should, but that is not topic for here
So Mr. commanderdata wants a world where GWFs deal 10%-20% more DPS than classes that also bring CC, utility, buffs and debuffs to the table.
Not everyone has what you just said. Like archer HR has no control like, fury SW has no control. What you are saying is like telling people that "can pick" any cc skill to "pick them" and then say "GWF doesn't have CC so they should dmg" WRONG, you got mark = buff benefit. you got prones = cc, you got stuns = cc * IT IS NOT CLASS FAULT THAT PEOPLE DOESN'T PICK RIGHT SKILLS TO SUPPORT TEAM* If you bring full dmg build of every class without benefits for party, without control and such then GWF will dominate them all since he got most profitable buffs then other classes, most class features aren't even close to the GWF ones since a long time.(expect m5 but looking back to m4 where they were dominating with OP bleed from crit...)
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,277Arc User
Well SW is kinda dead since he got useless class features ( which doesn't work ) and a lot of skills taht arent doing what they should, but that is not topic for here
SW is far from dead. SWs have been the main paingivers in our guild. In a dragon run, I was surprised that a SW who worn next to nothing, no/low enchantment (slots were opened), 30K HP was the top scorer and outperformed GWFs. He did say he has just "respec" it.
That was an "extreme" case. For the more "normal" cases, various SWs in our guild have been a good performer in various dungeon runs. Party leaders often pick SW before GWF.
Our guild leader has a SW wearing mod 5 gear set with 30K HP. He is the main DPSer in any run.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
Well SW is kinda dead since he got useless class features ( which doesn't work ) and a lot of skills taht arent doing what they should, but that is not topic for here
SW is far from dead. SWs have been the main paingivers in our guild. In a dragon run, I was surprised that a SW who worn next to nothing, no/low enchantment (slots were opened), 30K HP was the top scorer and outperformed GWFs. He did say he has just "respec" it.
That was an "extreme" case. For the more "normal" cases, various SWs in our guild have been a good performer in various dungeon runs. Party leaders often pick SW before GWF.
Our guild leader has a SW wearing mod 5 gear set with 30K HP. He is the main DPSer in any run.
Read how many of our skills doesnt work forum.arcgames.com/neverwinter/discussion/1205679/sw-warlock-skill-bugs#latest also yes old t2 set bonus was pretty good, it was really high boost of dps, yet you srsly dont want to run with 30k hp. Also comparing one sw to few gwf is nothing, I know gwf with 14k power 8k crit who overdps other gwfs who has 25k power 15k crits like nothing. The reason why I said he is dead is because of several not working stuffs. Here look at old t2 set bonus, top dmg from small testing on just 2-3 targets. it does 2k dmg per encounter dmg but with good party buffs I was doing like 4-6k dmg so imagine those 320hits to be double dmg " and that is just set bonus from nothing "so if your friends are wearing it then no wonder, but 30k hp- as I said u just dont want to die on any single hit.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,277Arc User
Well SW is kinda dead since he got useless class features ( which doesn't work ) and a lot of skills taht arent doing what they should, but that is not topic for here
SW is far from dead. SWs have been the main paingivers in our guild. In a dragon run, I was surprised that a SW who worn next to nothing, no/low enchantment (slots were opened), 30K HP was the top scorer and outperformed GWFs. He did say he has just "respec" it.
That was an "extreme" case. For the more "normal" cases, various SWs in our guild have been a good performer in various dungeon runs. Party leaders often pick SW before GWF.
Our guild leader has a SW wearing mod 5 gear set with 30K HP. He is the main DPSer in any run.
Read how many of our skills doesnt work forum.arcgames.com/neverwinter/discussion/1205679/sw-warlock-skill-bugs#latest also yes old t2 set bonus was pretty good, it was really high boost of dps, yet you srsly dont want to run with 30k hp. Also comparing one sw to few gwf is nothing, I know gwf with 14k power 8k crit who overdps other gwfs who has 25k power 15k crits like nothing. The reason why I said he is dead is because of several not working stuffs.
I know many things in SW does not work but I assume certain things do. The reason why I said it is far from dead because there are still many successful SWs running in my guild. May be they will be even more successful if those things work.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
I like how everyone that obviously doesnt play the class comments on knocks and stuns for gwf like they are so good. Try using FLS, takedown etc as a cc. Compared to any other class that has aoe or single target cc ability they are just garbage in terms of controlling enemies reliably. In pvp these abilities perform even worse with tenacity and control resist.
To me this is just a gripe thread because someone is sore about damage meters, when in fact none of this matters if you don't have the proper group to support you. When you see all gwfs rolling pve and dominating pvp (ala mod 5 TRs) then you have a problem. As it is right now GWFs are in a decent place. Obviously sentinel and instigator need some love because they drastically underperform, but destroyer is fine as is.
Instead of calling for nerfs for a class you obviously have little understanding of, why not call for buffs for features or powers in your chosen class you feel underperform.
I like how everyone that obviously doesnt play the class comments on knocks and stuns for gwf like they are so good. Try using FLS, takedown etc as a cc. Compared to any other class that has aoe or single target cc ability they are just garbage in terms of controlling enemies reliably. In pvp these abilities perform even worse with tenacity and control resist.
Tell me how superior in control SW is please, need to learn from you sempai, since I guess I am missing some good aoe superior control skills...
destroyer gwf: 40 % dmg from hidden daggers, 50 % dmg from destroyer capstone, 46.5% dmg from destroyer passive. 15% crit sev, 20% power from defense, 25% power from recovery/arpen, 9 % crit from weapon master after 3 seconds into the fight all these bonuses are active. without any external buffs. without any position requirement, Exec TR: pick 2: (oppresive darkness (20% dmg) or 75%dmg on 1st hit, 4% crit from skillfull inflitrator), 25% dmg to foes under 30%, 25% dmg to foes under 40%, shadow of demise bugged to all hell.
quote: Try to go to eCC with only a DC, a GWF destroyer and 3 other DPS. And ask the GWF to "offtank". havent tried ecc with a gwf tank yet. but i've done etos, and all the t1s with one.
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instynctiveMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,885Arc User
My GWF has like ZERO aggro. Things I'm fighting with him will break off combat to chase after tanks and DCs and aggro companions.
So it's quite impossible for me to "steal aggro" with my GWF. Besides, I rather like it when the bad guy is focusing on the tank, or a random CW or even my yeti (massive aggro on my yeti), because that leaves me free to stand there and pound on them.
Although I've never hit 3mil damage with Sure Strike. Hell.. I've never hit 3mil in damage with anything.
Please stop crying about GWFs. Sure, there are a few out there who can stomp anything, but mine isn't one of them.
quote: Try to go to eCC with only a DC, a GWF destroyer and 3 other DPS. And ask the GWF to "offtank". havent tried ecc with a gwf tank yet. but i've done etos, and all the t1s with one.
A destroyer? Want to see it. Video or meet in game and go with him to eToS or eCC.
quote: Try to go to eCC with only a DC, a GWF destroyer and 3 other DPS. And ask the GWF to "offtank". havent tried ecc with a gwf tank yet. but i've done etos, and all the t1s with one.
One GWF and no healer or Paladin?
see where you said i could have a DC there? it was the gwf, me ( 2.3k dc), and 3 dps who combined did less damage than the gwf.
Well SW is kinda dead since he got useless class features ( which doesn't work ) and a lot of skills taht arent doing what they should, but that is not topic for here
SW is far from dead. SWs have been the main paingivers in our guild. In a dragon run, I was surprised that a SW who worn next to nothing, no/low enchantment (slots were opened), 30K HP was the top scorer and outperformed GWFs. He did say he has just "respec" it.
That was an "extreme" case. For the more "normal" cases, various SWs in our guild have been a good performer in various dungeon runs. Party leaders often pick SW before GWF.
Our guild leader has a SW wearing mod 5 gear set with 30K HP. He is the main DPSer in any run.
Read how many of our skills doesnt work forum.arcgames.com/neverwinter/discussion/1205679/sw-warlock-skill-bugs#latest also yes old t2 set bonus was pretty good, it was really high boost of dps, yet you srsly dont want to run with 30k hp. Also comparing one sw to few gwf is nothing, I know gwf with 14k power 8k crit who overdps other gwfs who has 25k power 15k crits like nothing. The reason why I said he is dead is because of several not working stuffs. Here look at old t2 set bonus, top dmg from small testing on just 2-3 targets. it does 2k dmg per encounter dmg but with good party buffs I was doing like 4-6k dmg so imagine those 320hits to be double dmg " and that is just set bonus from nothing "so if your friends are wearing it then no wonder, but 30k hp- as I said u just dont want to die on any single hit.
sw's hp means nothing when permabubble is in effect.
I didnt try but new instigator feat seems tons of control, its not that hard to be behind the enemy within a party
i think that too in the beggining, but... dont work great like seens.
**** the rest is just the same destroyed arguments - including delusions about roles... or non roles - and some peoples that, in the past, dont care about how much cws and sws are able to over dps GWFS BY FAR,dont needing THE HELP OF ANY ANOTHER CLASS/ROLE - or even player - TO FINISH THE MOST HARD DUNGEONS, EVEN USING A 14K GEAR.
sw's hp means nothing when permabubble is in effect.
Few more complains for cover of GWF and I will srsly post here the thing that makes GWF op as HAMSTER and belive me they will nerf it sooner then you could wish. I bet most of you know what I am talking about.
Comments
It should be made quite clear the difference that 1 exec TR should make in speeding up the death of a boss. Dunno however how this could be achieved without breaking the class in PvP, but considering they need a buff in PvP too...a good start would be a buff to executor builds in damage.
Yeah archer HR for PvE is probably the main DPS build, combat more for PvP perhaps or, like exec TR, single target DPS/ boss killing.
I'd say combat HR and exec TR clearly superior to GWF in single target burst, so Destro GWF would be primary DPS on multiple targets and secondary DPS on single target, and same for SW Fury. SW Fury should be at same DPS level as GWF Destro, same role.
GFs, OPs, DCs and CWs are fine the way are now. They all are the choice when it comes to their role. CW and trapper for CC, interchangeable, DC to heal, GF to tank, OP in the middle to basically do both.
Btw, right now you read in lfg stuff like "lfm tank" or "lfm healer" or "lfm DPS" where in the past every old player can remember it was specifically "lfm CW" or "lfm DC". Period. This is a fact and is a sign that PvE balance is close. Only underperforming paths need love now, but each class with the current "BiS" path have a specific, and required, role. Much better than in the past.
Only players with a paingiver fetish really have issues in PvE now.
If i have to point out the top priority i'd say SW should have PvE DPS placed on Fury path and taken away from...well...bugged puppet XD
The rest is balancing paths, but that goes for every class. GWF too with sentinel/ instigator paths being useless.
FYI In other MMOs dps classes balanced to have 10-20% difference in dps!
You can bring your white lies all you want the fact that GWFs/SWs does 2-2,5 times dmg in T2s and 2 times dmg in Tiamat which results are not acceptable!
They reached it with the mod6 overbuffs and various imbalanced mechanics.
Lets see facts!
1. No class should have 40% buff as hidden daggers! Too high!
2. No class should have stackable buffs w/o any time limit! As destroyer, weapon mater Destroyer's purpose buffs! Too high!
3. No class should have 100-200k dmg from at-wills! Too high!
4. No class should have 2-4 million+ dmg from encouters and daily as IBS/Crescendo! Too high!
If you bring up TRs its not really good for your case because GWFs shouldn't have bigger single target dmg as TRs in the first place!
I hate it when they do Daring Shout, since it's an AoE taunt, but apparently it's a large part of their DPS, so I can't really shout them to stop using it lol.
Under his comment 2 players pretty much say that if it wasn't for their damage, they wouldn't invite a GWF to a dungeon.
Self explanatory.
Commander, your suggestions are pure nonsense. Sorry.
@klangeddin : yes, DS mark is a big source of GWF DPS. Like Hidden dagger and the other buffs. Cause GWF base damage is HAMSTER. Devs made it this way: a low-damage class that needs to pile up self buffs to deal real damage.
GWf only damage?
How about using their idk offtank capabilities maybe? Taking aggro, kiting? No?
Obviously only well fed GWFs/SWs are satisfied with current meta or "balance" and everything is fine with 'em.
Oh wait! No!
They constantly open topics for more buffs or "tune"...
Currently, each class is really good at something. There wouldn't be a problem with this, but each class also has 3 feat trees that allow them to choose a specialization. If a CW is supposed to control and only control, why is there a 2nd tree that only focuses on personal damage. Or a 3rd that gives personal and group damage. The developers obvious wanted classes to have mechanics that serve these specializations and let the players decide, by choosing a feat tree to determine their primary focus. Saying that "a certain class has to do this and this, because that's exactly how it was in an outdated state of another game within the same franchise" is just narrow-minded.
Hunters can choose between focusing on ranged damage, melee damage or control.
Wizards can choose between focusing on control, personal damage or team damage(which again boosts personal damage)
GWFs can choose between focusing on dueling, aoe damage and tanky traits.
In my opinion, giving classes multiple roles - thanks to the feat trees - is better than assigning a single role to a class. What is required, heavily depends on the challenges the current content demands. If a class is able to adapt to new demands, that's good from a players perspective.
That being said, if a class is really good at something, but the 2 other roles are lacking, the different types of challenges in future content can heavily influence balance without the devs touching the classes themselves.
A GWF has utility and control, but it's limited. The class is able knock down a single target, keep it prone for some time. Going into the Instigator tree, you are able to pick up many interrupting effects that help you pick and shut down a target for quite some time through constant slowing and prone. The Instigator's Vengeance capstone however... is definitely counter-productive in a 1v1 situation (both PvE and PvP) because while the whole tree allows you interrupt and not get hit, the capstone requires you to get hit at least every 6 seconds. So it's lackluster, right? But it's there, along with the Sentinel tree to support it. It exists and it is a playstyle that can used in certain situations to contribute to party play.
The exact same thing applies to pretty much every class. There are roles that are just more effective or more essential, considering the current challenges we are facing. I'm sure that once Dread Vault is introduced again, with the now scaled-up monster strenght, you'll see CWs knocking monsters down cliffs, instead of suffering through long fights with medium to tough monsters which take really long to kill.
Players are using these class arguments against each other for the wrong reasons. You guys aren't fighting for balance, you guys want to prove you are right because you take criticism towards your class as a personal attack.
I dont have a GWF - I have an exe TR, Prot OP and now am highly enjoying High Prophet Righteous DC (seriously this is amazing - I recently came late for WoD dragons and saw it going down without me for some time but once I arrived and placed my buffs on allies/debuffs on him he started going down SO much faster - I wouldnt achieve that even with a freaking 300k power GWF and I have 1.9k iLvl with him) but yet I dont think they are OP, because when assembling party I take them AFTER other roles are taken. It is not even remotely close to mod 2 CW, where even when there already were 3 of them in party I felt like taking 4th would be the best choice. Currently I dont feel GWF is a mandatory and having more than 1, max 2 is going to be a burden. I would prefer to run eCC (legit) with Tank + Healer + 3xCW/HR/TR, rather than 3xGWF - provided they know what they are doing because this is another major case with GWFs - they are the most simple class in game to achieve ok-ish DPS - just spam at-wills, thats all. That is why they are "the safest" PuG dps, because its much higher chance you get an, at least, ok-ish GWF, than HR/TR/CW - they need to know a lot more what they are doing to achieve good numbers. I strongly side with thefabricants statement here.
Aggro is taken mainly by damage, not by mark for sure. Sentinel is supposed to do that but can't, cause sentinel damage is so low that aggro goes to another DPS and mark on GWF is not as powerful as GF's for obvious reasons.
GWF cannot offtank epic dungeons. Wanna try? Do this:
Destroyers can't "offtank" anything in an epic dungeon. It's more durable in solo content and PvP. In epics, you can't offtank with a destro. And there's no need of it. You either have a GF or a paladin.
Try to go to eCC with only a DC, a GWF destroyer and 3 other DPS. And ask the GWF to "offtank".
Sentinel is supposed to do that at the cost of most of destro DPS. But even Sentinels have such poor aggro capabilities and survivability in epic dungeons, that you don't see any "GWF offtank" around.
Destroyer right now is pure DPS. But if you got a Destroyer GWF mate who can offtank eCC please i want to run the dungeon with him to learn. Or if you can do it yourself.
@rometheone:
you're wrong. I talk about balance. As i said, i actively play most classes in PvE too.
You talk about sentinel and instigator. You know why these paths were left to rot by the GWF community? Cause they don't do the job they are supposed to do.
Sentinel can't keep aggro from DPS classes, can't tank enough in epic dungeons, and brings mediocre damage to the group.
Instigator...are we really discussing the viability? I used an instigator build for a long time in module 4. It's capstone works only in PvP. Rest of the path simply underperforms and brings less CC and utility than a CW, trapper HR, even TRs can bring more utility than instigator. On top of that, capstone in PvE works poorly. You just don't get hit enough in PvE to build stacks, stacks disappear quickly and in epic dungeons, if there's a tank (usually there's one) you don't get hit at all, so bye bye capstone and DPS.
It's true each class have "paths", it's also true each class has a role, so the paths are meant to shift your contribution to a party a bit, but leaving you inside your specific role. A conqueror GF cannot DPS as much as a SW or GWF or even CW. It's a tank class. And a Sentinel cannot tank as much as a GF.
Or else, there would be no point in using different classes. You don't go GF to be a DPS. You don't go CW to be a DPS. You don't go GWF to CC or tank.
Right now most classes have a "BiS" path that performs well, and 2 other paths that perform poorly.
Example, GWF:
Destro path is focus on monster damage, brings nothing else to a group with good peace of commander's "offtank" dream. Any player knows that since module 6 destroyers can't offtank in epic dungeons. They're just less squishy then a SW, but far from being an offtank.
Sentinel is supposed to be the offtank. You should deal "decent damage", and at the same time bring something else--->protection. I would achieve that by making GWF Sentinels AoE debuffers, debuffing the enemy DPS on an area. So DC+Sentinel migh become a choice together with Paladin+4 DPS, or DC+OP, or DC+GF, OP+GF and so on.
Instigator should have DPS in between destroyer and sentinel, bringing group DPS buffs to compensate.
So, what would happen is that a GWF using a different path would bring something that allows the group to shift composition, but keeping them inside their main "class role".
So even a sentinel, for example, must dish out more DPS than a conqueror GF in a dungeon run, while a conqueror can tank where a sentinel only "mitigates" the damage directed towards the group.
Right now, instead, Sentinel is a loss of DPS with aggro mechanics and survivability that don't work good enough.
Instigator is a mess of basically some utlity/ self buffs that are supposed to look like something "tactical", while it's just a loss of DPS over destroyer, complemented by underperforming and unpractical mechanics.
Destroyer, like fury SW or executioner TR, is the DPS spec of a DPS class. These paths must make a difference when it comes to DPS or it's pointless to bring them. 10-20% doesn't make enough difference when someone else can add heavy AoE CC, or debuff, or group buffs/ debuffs.
So yeah, you have "paths", but you have classes too. And there's a reason, you know. Why a GF is a tank class and GWF is not a tank class.
Different paths allows you to have more "combos". Example: right now you can have DC+OP, or DC+GF. Basically: DC+tank. Or OP+4DPS. You can't go with GF+4DPS right? But what if, for example, Sentinels were able to "debuff" AoE the enemy's damage, like i said above? And may be buff the team's lifesteal?
You could go in an epic with, for example:
GF
Sentinel GWF
CW
2xDPS
and basically complement the GF tank capabilites not with healing/ protection, but with CC and debuff to enemy damage (i would make a Sentinel able to debuff mobs damage by 50% piling up multiple debuffs).
So for example: DS, 25% AoE debuff to enemies damage added to current effect. Come and get it: 15% AoE debuff to enemy damage added to current effect. 15% debuff each (DS+Come and get it). 30% total AoE damage debuff. Effect added through advanced feats. I'd also add a range buff through advantage feat on DS-CaGI.
As you see, now you have more variety but keeping a role for each class. If you lack DC/OP, you can go for GF/Sentinel/CW. CW AoE CCs--->GWF AoE debuff+small pull with CaGI--->GF grabs aggro.
On a side note: GWF damage also comes from eLoL set overperforming on crit builds. There are reports of 500k procs from the set...It's based on weapon damage so it's easy to see why it favors the GWF class.
Also: you can't really accuse me of not seeking balance. Back in module 2 and 3, when GWF was clearly overpowered, i was together with ayroux and others, among the GWF who advocated for nerfs to the class.
I am just against nonsense suggestions that would make the class useless and unwanted in PvE.
And it's not even like it would touch me much since i run PvE with my awesome guild mates. But i see how commander's suggestion to make destroyer/SW damage "10-20% more than other classes" would destroy these classes.
GF can be top paingiver. Almost eq to GWF and SW.
But SW and GF can give party buffs in the mean time GF can protect reduce pt members dmg taken
and tank propperly also if he have slug or ap DC he can immune to dmg almost all time.
BTW just saying the top score tiamat and Stronhold dragons always ruled by renegade CW's .
Cuz CW's can heal controll do dmg and buff the pt or the massive zerg swarm.
Paingiver does not measure dps, it measures hit points removed. This means that the player who kills the little adds first will have a higher paingiver rating then everyone else, because everyone else will have fewer targets to hit. In the case of CN in mod 5, I liked to rush and run ahead of the group, this means that I always had the highest paingiver rating on my CW because my icy terrain landed before anyone elses and killed all of the random things, leaving them with only the big stuff remaining. Did I have the highest dps? Heck no, other players had much higher dps but it didn't matter to paingiver because I removed the hitpoints on the weak monsters first.
Paingiver in the end inflates the differences between playstyles of players and gives a wildly inaccurate figure and the figures on tiamat are just drawn out of a hat by cryptic devs and mean nothing anyhow so they cannot be used to draw any form of statistical significance.
So when comparing classes dps, you cannot use paingiver, you should be using something like ACT. You also got to remember that some classes like CW can deliver their damage in a burst, where as other classes like SW need to do things like build up buffs or soul sparks and this changes how much "health they remove" in boss fights vs fighting random adds.
edit* Just realised this is my 1000th post....damn I post here way too much.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
What you are saying is like telling people that "can pick" any cc skill to "pick them" and then say "GWF doesn't have CC so they should dmg" WRONG, you got mark = buff benefit. you got prones = cc, you got stuns = cc
* IT IS NOT CLASS FAULT THAT PEOPLE DOESN'T PICK RIGHT SKILLS TO SUPPORT TEAM*
If you bring full dmg build of every class without benefits for party, without control and such then GWF will dominate them all since he got most profitable buffs then other classes, most class features aren't even close to the GWF ones since a long time.(expect m5 but looking back to m4 where they were dominating with OP bleed from crit...)
That was an "extreme" case. For the more "normal" cases, various SWs in our guild have been a good performer in various dungeon runs. Party leaders often pick SW before GWF.
Our guild leader has a SW wearing mod 5 gear set with 30K HP. He is the main DPSer in any run.
forum.arcgames.com/neverwinter/discussion/1205679/sw-warlock-skill-bugs#latest
also yes old t2 set bonus was pretty good, it was really high boost of dps, yet you srsly dont want to run with 30k hp. Also comparing one sw to few gwf is nothing, I know gwf with 14k power 8k crit who overdps other gwfs who has 25k power 15k crits like nothing.
The reason why I said he is dead is because of several not working stuffs.
Here look at old t2 set bonus, top dmg from small testing on just 2-3 targets. it does 2k dmg per encounter dmg but with good party buffs I was doing like 4-6k dmg so imagine those 320hits to be double dmg " and that is just set bonus from nothing "so if your friends are wearing it then no wonder, but 30k hp- as I said u just dont want to die on any single hit.
To me this is just a gripe thread because someone is sore about damage meters, when in fact none of this matters if you don't have the proper group to support you. When you see all gwfs rolling pve and dominating pvp (ala mod 5 TRs) then you have a problem. As it is right now GWFs are in a decent place. Obviously sentinel and instigator need some love because they drastically underperform, but destroyer is fine as is.
Instead of calling for nerfs for a class you obviously have little understanding of, why not call for buffs for features or powers in your chosen class you feel underperform.
Exec TR: pick 2: (oppresive darkness (20% dmg) or 75%dmg on 1st hit, 4% crit from skillfull inflitrator), 25% dmg to foes under 30%, 25% dmg to foes under 40%, shadow of demise bugged to all hell.
quote: Try to go to eCC with only a DC, a GWF destroyer and 3 other DPS. And ask the GWF to "offtank". havent tried ecc with a gwf tank yet. but i've done etos, and all the t1s with one.
So it's quite impossible for me to "steal aggro" with my GWF. Besides, I rather like it when the bad guy is focusing on the tank, or a random CW or even my yeti (massive aggro on my yeti), because that leaves me free to stand there and pound on them.
Although I've never hit 3mil damage with Sure Strike. Hell.. I've never hit 3mil in damage with anything.
Please stop crying about GWFs. Sure, there are a few out there who can stomp anything, but mine isn't one of them.
"...I grab my wiener and charge!" - ironzerg79
****
the rest is just the same destroyed arguments - including delusions about roles... or non roles - and some peoples that, in the past, dont care about how much cws and sws are able to over dps GWFS BY FAR,dont needing THE HELP OF ANY ANOTHER CLASS/ROLE - or even player - TO FINISH THE MOST HARD DUNGEONS, EVEN USING A 14K GEAR.