When all the mods were previously talking about and advising people to get leadership armies, and even theorycrafting them, and now they are all talking about how great the new system is despite the huge player outcry (judging by how long the allowed thread on the subject, and how many other threads got locked, and the general vitriol level over it), it leads people to believe the community mods are not representing the players as they claim to. That hurts the game because it hurts the mods credibility, turns the forums, and thus shortens the game's life.
To that I say, one should consider the credibility of such folks then for they obviously aren't reading all the feedback the moderators are posting and are instead using them as targets to pawn off their venting of frustration upon without any merit of cause.
"all the mods were previously talking about and advising people to get leadership armies" -- As for why some (not all by the way) were posting about and advising people to make characters and work leadership... well that was the best method. That's like hollering at someone for making a TR guide or suggestions from over a year ago as though it still had relevance today. Looking at it for any other reason doesn't seem right to me.
As for "all talking about how great the new system," that's only partly true for Ironzerg has posted threads and posts with suggestions to make the AD change better, and even I have posted some serious commentary on the cost of things post-AD changes.
When all the mods were previously talking about and advising people to get leadership armies, and even theorycrafting them, and now they are all talking about how great the new system is
I ain't taking sides here. But I will say advice is based on a situation right? So if the situation changes, won't the advice or opinion? Leadership armies were an accepted function of game progression. Now they're gone.
I think this outcry is more based on the fact that mitigating factors were not including with the changes. AD allowances got cut in half (at best), but many prices remain the same. I'm not thrilled about that either. If the game follows up with changing set-prices (transmutes, SH, boons, upgrade stones, pets, etc) to reflect AD changes, then I'd assume vexing sentiment will lower...maybe?
One new character (way below 70) who can do invocation gets 3K rAD for doing that 5 times per day. Not sure where else this character can earn rAD easily on his own. Can "average" player do that 5 times per day?
Let me get this straight. The argument is, without Leadership rewarding AD, the new player whose character is way below 70 and who absolutely refuses to do any group content, can not earn any AD, which is so important to a character who is way below level 70.
I don't know about you, but I didn't even consider leveling leadership until after I hit 60 (pre-mod6) and it takes a while to get it high enough to earn any real AD.
A "180" from almost EIGHT MONTHS ago, where a lot has changed both in game and out<
Whats changed? You all seemed happy for the changes mod 6 brought. Nothing has changed economy wise between those changes and the Leadership nerf. Mod 7 only added more sinks and more reasons to actually rely on leadership. The Zax didn't even change over all that time. It has been pegged at 500 for much longer then those 8 months. Far longer then mod 6. Far longer then when your opinion was different.
So what specifically changed in those 8 months to justify the full 180 degree change? I'm honestly curious.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,456Arc User
One new character (way below 70) who can do invocation gets 3K rAD for doing that 5 times per day. Not sure where else this character can earn rAD easily on his own. Can "average" player do that 5 times per day?
Let me get this straight. The argument is, without Leadership rewarding AD, the new player whose character is way below 70 and who absolutely refuses to do any group content, can not earn any AD, which is so important to a character who is way below level 70.
I don't know about you, but I didn't even consider leveling leadership until after I hit 60 (pre-mod6) and it takes a while to get it high enough to earn any real AD.
I started leadership one week into the game when I knew I had to find a way to finance the hero. That was mod 2 or 3 (I don't remember anymore). That was before my character could do any profession. No, I did not and do not have a leadership army. I had 2 character slots at that moment. Leadership gave me all the other character slots (I planned to have one character per class right in the beginning).
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
A "180" from almost EIGHT MONTHS ago, where a lot has changed both in game and out<
Whats changed? You all seemed happy for the changes mod 6 brought. Nothing has changed economy wise between those changes and the Leadership nerf. Mod 7 only added more sinks and more reasons to actually rely on leadership. The Zax didn't even change over all that time. It has been pegged at 500 for much longer then those 8 months. Far longer then mod 6. Far longer then when your opinion was different.
So what specifically changed in those 8 months to justify the full 180 degree change? I'm honestly curious.
You ask me how much life is left in the game. I've been disconnected from the damn servers over 2 dozen times tonight. The login servers are kicking me out 70% of the time too. Yet I can log into several other MMO's without a problem, just not this one.
I dont even care about the profanity anymore. This game just gets worse and worse every day between the actions by the development team and the hardware issues. Wizards really needs to take this game away from Cryptic and PWE.
I just wish Scott and Co. had actually thought LS changes through enough to realize that if they wanted it to be accepted by the players that had been depending on it for advancing their growing stable of toons in a very grind heavy environment, they would need a fully fleshed out solution, not simply turning off the flow and hoping there wasn't a calamitous uprising as a result.
Not many would say there wasn't a problem, but exactly zero should be saying we are looking at a proper solution. Anyone who says we are will be rightly branded as delusional, uninformed or a straight up shill. I watched my guild that dated back to BETA 1 die because of this and had to find homes for my orphaned friends who wished to carry on, still hoping Scott and Co. would deliver a solution. It is heartbreaking how callously this was handled and how little the feelings of the players were taken into account. There is no expectation that anything will change for the better going forward and as much as I wanted to hang on and see if Mod 8 might bring a turnaround, I have spent quality time away from this mess and feel much better as a result. Maybe if I see that Mr Shicoff has left the building, but otherwise I'll count my blessings that I was able to break the addiction with his help.
So just a quick question for you guys. You know you can earn your full RAD reward from running non-epic dungeons, right? ...
New/lowlevel players don't have access to ToS, they can't do a quick run for some rAD. I just waited a long time for a pop of CC or even GWD to do my two dungeon runs with my level 45 character, but nothing.
Not to mention, how often is it necessary to report the bug, where you get into a dungeon run but not into the dungeon group, before it gets fixed? Since dungeon runs are now a vital part of earning some rAD per day, shouldn't that issue get at least some official statement? Which is then hopefully followed by a hotfix within a week, or something like that?
I think we can discuss about AD forever. Some facts about how much life: - http://steamcharts.com/app/109600 We know this is an incomplete stat, but it show us a trend. Quite negative. - We've been discussing about AD many times in many forum threads. Only GMoPs were reworked and no other action has been done despite some weak announcements. The dev blog is just focused on Underdark. - Quality of the life in NW. It would be nice to know how many bots are in game in order to know the real amount of players. Bots are an issue, but at the same time they increase the number of players -> Quite good when you have to report this value to your boss. - Quite difficult to run dungeons using lfg: it means that life is very low. If there is life, that's concentrated in SH only as isolated community from the rest of the game.
This is my understanding of the situation. Concerning the solutions, a lot of interesteing ideas form the players, zero/very limited reaction from the dev team, shifting the expectations on UD while we need solution now.
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
and even I have posted some serious commentary on the cost of things post-AD changes.
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA yeah, musta been that give me housing and let me sped lots of ad on it thread.
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clericalistMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 595Arc User
Ignoring the leadership changes (and they were a big slap in the face), there are many more problems.
- The dungeons provide no real rewards, after getting the seals, there is no reason to do any them. - There are so few dungeons - Players are expected to do deadly long grinds or pay huge amounts of cash, but the game keeps being drastically changed, this means that doing deadly long grinds are too risky to waste time on - The game still has way too many glaring bugs and design problems - Cryptic dictate with zero regard to the players, they live in bubble and have never once honestly discuss all the problems they are facing and what they are going to do about it.
I only log in to get my daily VIP (another con job that got many suckers like me to waste money on), there is no real life left in this game.
Ignoring the leadership changes (and they were a big slap in the face), there are many more problems.
- The dungeons provide no real rewards, after getting the seals, there is no reason to do any them. - There are so few dungeons - Players are expected to do deadly long grinds or pay huge amounts of cash, but the game keeps being drastically changed, this means that doing deadly long grinds are too risky to waste time on - The game still has way too many glaring bugs and design problems - Cryptic dictate with zero regard to the players, they live in bubble and have never once honestly discuss all the problems they are facing and what they are going to do about it.
I only log in to get my daily VIP (another con job that got many suckers like me to waste money on), there is no real life left in this game.
Can't say better myself. Good point about grinds, pretty each of them can be a trap.
A "180" from almost EIGHT MONTHS ago, where a lot has changed both in game and out<
Whats changed? You all seemed happy for the changes mod 6 brought. Nothing has changed economy wise between those changes and the Leadership nerf. Mod 7 only added more sinks and more reasons to actually rely on leadership. The Zax didn't even change over all that time. It has been pegged at 500 for much longer then those 8 months. Far longer then mod 6. Far longer then when your opinion was different.
So what specifically changed in those 8 months to justify the full 180 degree change? I'm honestly curious.
I already stated in the post prior.
No you didn't. Yes, you mentioned some personal issues, and that is completely understandable if that was the sole reason. The part I'm curious about is the where you said stuff changed BOTH IN-GAME and out. You talked about the out, just not the game part.
The difference is important. Changes to the game effect us all, you said changes to the game influenced your opinions. Understanding of that might help many of us here to be open to new opinions. But if the change of opinion is strictly personal in nature, then criticizing people for not understanding it and being angry over the changes, seems rather silly.
The difference is important. Changes to the game effect us all, you said changes to the game influenced your opinions. Understanding of that might help many of us here to be open to new opinions. But if the change of opinion is strictly personal in nature, then criticizing people for not understanding it and being angry over the changes, seems rather silly.
the only thing that changed since mod6's release is pwe's bottom line.
The game is an instance based MMO.In beggining that counted as disadvantage.But as times passes this is actually an advantage.
You log in you run some skirmishes or dd ,you are out.Compare this to Age of Conan for example or some older fantasy MMOs.And you complain about grind. You all complain but most of you are here for 2 years.everything is boring to you.(and to me) Nw is not a bad game as you think if you start fresh.
"But how i will be BiS?Imppossible now!!" .Well..it should never be easy to be BiS in first place.Sadly Cryptic responded very slowly to botting/glitching and exploiting. Influential forumers here were part of guilds that exploited literally tenths if not hundreds of millions of ad in the game. This led to the image -impression that running BiS is a must and something that should be achieved ASAP. Economy ruined.That was the first big mistake of cryptic.it should respond with an iron fist like blizzard and ban the exploiters.
Second mistake and biggest of all?By far? Arti gear.It should never be implemented in first place.Never.Cause it created a wall impossible to climb playing legit. Cryptic overdone it. Not in bad intend but seriously i think that at some point folks believed that all these players running purple arti gear 4 days after mod4 release,they somehow payed for it. Hell no.They bought it with exploited ad.That is a fact. In a MMO,if you want to keep it healthy ,you put biS gear in the game by playing ,as rewards. That was the case until /and, Mod3.Corrupted/purified gear /weapons could be aquired by playing the damn thing and not refining it. Coinsidense?Most BiS players hate Mod3 with passion and were here in the forums arguing and shaming the whole mod,during and pre -preview release of IWD. Yet IWD is still alive of players up to this day.
3rd mistake.Cryptic heared the same people that complained about mod3 ,the BiS players and since mod4 ,game took a new direction. Arti gear and refining.Downfall started from there.Easy time you stay BiS by paying with your (exploited) AD.
As for these people -not to flame but to state some facts- one measure of their judjement is the recent dom changes.most were here applauding the dom contesting changes.How much reduce percentage from pvp from then?50%100%? Do some self critisism for a time folks.They always think for themselves and think a fresh 70 will think the same.Not counting the fact that are 0.000000001% of the population and demand things for the rest.Nvm.Sadly cryptic employees still hold in high esteem these players .Sad.
--------------------------------------
As for the future?NW is here to stay.It has very good graphics (compared to other MMOS) ,it can be casual and hardcore at the same time.Superb action combat.Have you fought in Archeage?omg. WotC will push for new content every 6-7 months.Xbox brought new population. The competitors are in even worst shape.Archeage is ruined,the other sci fi cartoon one will going free to play.Rift has lower player base.
The new NW team is more responsive and creative .They will put the boat back to calm waters.So my advise is for all the old players:Stay in touch:take a break or whatever.But NW has years of life ahead of it.
Edit:Sorry for the wall of text. But i wanted to say it all : P
I truly believe that moderators should not get drawn into these debates. We've seen the consequences of that before. You are either a moderator or a punter. I don't believe you can be both, despite the valiant efforts of the new mods.
And glib suggestions like "just do dungeons" are not the solution.
If you make $10 hr, and a beer costs $5, you "earn" 2 beers an hr. If you make $100 hr and beers cost $50, you STILL earned 2 beers an hr. So they dropped the fixed cost rate for marks, IF...IF you made the same amount of wages as before this would be good for the player, he had improved purchasing power, i.e. got more for his money, his cost of living was improved.
Again, this only works for people running leadership armies. For the "average" player who was making $10/hr before the change and $10/hr after, reducing the cost of beer from $50 to $5 is a huge boost
Yes, the leadership change "hurt" players who had large leadership armies, there's not doubt about that. But overall it's better for new players and existing players who didn't enjoy the thought of investing 30 character slots and 6 months in order to have a "competitive" income, which long term is far better for the game.
I'll disagree with the above. I don't believe it took 6 months to get leadership to level 25 (I'm at 25 and took maybe 3 months?) But I'm old and senile now, so maybe I'm wrong.
Anyway, new character/player will more than likely want to level to 70. So they go through the regular storyline (Probably get to level 62 or thereabouts by the time they finish whispering cavern). Then on to EE and lots of grinding in Fiery Pit to get to level 70. I doubt many will be spending an extra hour doing their 2 dungeons/skirmishes to get 12k rAD.
So now they're at 70 and need to buy some blue gear to get IL high enough to get into eLoL to get even better gear. OR Maybe they want to do Sharandar/DR/IWD for boons. 75,000 AD for Sharandar boons alone. I haven't looked up/added DR/IWD, or ToD.
Prior to this, by the time I hit level 70, I think my OP had about 600,000 AD (but I think I might have bought the blood ruby 3 pack and sold 2 on the AH, and my memory may be a bit off). And I certainly didn't run dungeons/skirms for an hour every day.
New player, by that time may have like 20k AD? (I vaguely recall there's a main storyline quest for doing a dungeon and a skirmish). Not sure how much you get if you stay on for hours and invoke all the time. I play about 1.5-2 hours/day.
Once you're 70, IF you have a good group, you can run CC/ToS in about 8 min each (so if you PUG you may be doing about 12 min. each as people like to kill every single critter instead of racing to the end). Let's average it at 10. 20 min. for 6k AD. Then you have to do 2 skirms. If you have people that don't know what they're doing I think the DR skirm takes about 12 min with an "ok" group. Longer if you have people that don't use headphones or pay attention to chat and screw up the portals. Let's say 15 min. each. 30 min for another 6k AD Almost an hour for 12k AD. When I should be leveling my char or getting boons.
Oh wait, can't get the boons. Need AD. Off to run dungeons/skirms
this has been stated many times before, but still no movement from Cryptic: Costs need to be lowered or removed completely (boons shouldn't cost AD now) AD gaining methods need to be increased (quests should give out AD, IMO).
And don't get me started on stronghold AD requirements.
Given cryptic's past performance, I doubt we'll see anything any time soon.
For those of us who've played since Beta, this is very sad and frustrating. I'm learning to like Skyforge now.
The game is an instance based MMO.In beggining that counted as disadvantage.But as times passes this is actually an advantage.
You log in you run some skirmishes or dd ,you are out.Compare this to Age of Conan for example or some older fantasy MMOs.And you complain about grind. You all complain but most of you are here for 2 years.everything is boring to you.(and to me) Nw is not a bad game as you think if you start fresh.
"But how i will be BiS?Imppossible now!!" .Well..it should never be easy to be BiS in first place.Sadly Cryptic responded very slowly to botting/glitching and exploiting. Influential forumers here were part of guilds that exploited literally tenths if not hundreds of millions of ad in the game. This led to the image -impression that running BiS is a must and something that should be achieved ASAP. Economy ruined.That was the first big mistake of cryptic.it should respond with an iron fist like blizzard and ban the exploiters.
Second mistake and biggest of all?By far? Arti gear.It should never be implemented in first place.Never.Cause it created a wall impossible to climb playing legit. Cryptic overdone it. Not in bad intend but seriously i think that at some point folks believed that all these players running purple arti gear 4 days after mod4 release,they somehow payed for it. Hell no.They bought it with exploited ad.That is a fact. In a MMO,if you want to keep it healthy ,you put biS gear in the game by playing ,as rewards. That was the case until /and, Mod3.Corrupted/purified gear /weapons could be aquired by playing the damn thing and not refining it. Coinsidense?Most BiS players hate Mod3 with passion and were here in the forums arguing and shaming the whole mod,during and pre -preview release of IWD. Yet IWD is still alive of players up to this day.
3rd mistake.Cryptic heared the same people that complained about mod3 ,the BiS players and since mod4 ,game took a new direction. Arti gear and refining.Downfall started from there.Easy time you stay BiS by paying with your (exploited) AD.
As for these people -not to flame but to state some facts- one measure of their judjement is the recent dom changes.most were here applauding the dom contesting changes.How much reduce percentage from pvp from then?50%100%? Do some self critisism for a time folks.They always think for themselves and think a fresh 70 will think the same.Not counting the fact that are 0.000000001% of the population and demand things for the rest.Nvm.Sadly cryptic employees still hold in high esteem these players .Sad.
--------------------------------------
As for the future?NW is here to stay.It has very good graphics (compared to other MMOS) ,it can be casual and hardcore at the same time.Superb action combat.Have you fought in Archeage?omg. WotC will push for new content every 6-7 months.Xbox brought new population. The competitors are in even worst shape.Archeage is ruined,the other sci fi cartoon one will going free to play.Rift has lower player base.
The new NW team is more responsive and creative .They will put the boat back to calm waters.So my advise is for all the old players:Stay in touch:take a break or whatever.But NW has years of life ahead of it.
Edit:Sorry for the wall of text. But i wanted to say it all : P
I follow your arguments in most cases, beside the fact that cryptic acts to slow in fixing their stuff and I also think the moment they broke leadership they should have corrected the ingame cost for lots of stuff like respec/boons/compagnion upgrades etc. As always they act to slow and deliver half baked solutions, having trouble in correcting things afterwards. I also can see that they do work on it, what should have happend in advance, so there is hope.
I also think they really should deal much more drastically with all these spammers, AD sellers, botters and heavy exploiters as you said, it breaks their neck and deals massive damage to their economy. All in all I think the decision to disarmor the leadership armies was by far the most needed step to go, now they should adapt quick the ingame costs for other stuff
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited October 2015
@goldmoon So I accept the criticisms on the leadership issue. I understand how that's easily twisted into hypocrisy. And I'll suffer the slings and arrows of those lining up to point and sneer at me, both here and on other forums.
Such is the nature of publicly posting opinions.
But understand this. Much like life, the only constant in an MMO is change. And you also have to accept the fact that sometimes that change is out of your control, so you make the best of it. The leadership situation is one of those changes.
People look to me for advice, which I'm happy to given, freely and openly. When asked years and months ago about generating Astral Diamond income, the advice to use Leadership was genuine and freely given. And it's advice I don't regret giving. Because at the time, and understanding the mechanics and direction of the game is was GOOD advice.
Would it have done anyone any good to whine and complain in those leadership threads? Would it have helped anyone to tell them to give up and quit, to walk away and never player? Or complain about terrible game designs and how things SHOULD be different? In those specific threads you're linking, no. In other threads, of course.
So if you're going back and reviewing all the posts I've made and threads I've started over the last 2 years, I challenge you to also link the ones were I've vocally spoken out against the grind, the excessive costs of refinement, the challenge of leveling new toons to 70, or gearing up alts. I've been an outspoke critic of decisions made, but I've also been one to offer advice for people open to listening to help navigate and adjust to changes, good or bad, to the game.
I know it's easier to point fingers and hurdle insults than to think critically about these issues. And I know how easy it is to cherry pick from thousands of my posts to make a case. And I'll shrug it off.
And given how much more I know now about how widely abused the Gateway and Leadership was, more so now than I did a few months ago, I know it's extremely unlikely that you'll see these leadership changes reverted.
And how many more comments and threads will I start, offering what I believe are reasonable and needed changes to the game to make things more fun and enjoyable for the average player here, and less of a grind and less punishing?
A "180" from almost EIGHT MONTHS ago, where a lot has changed both in game and out<
Whats changed? You all seemed happy for the changes mod 6 brought. Nothing has changed economy wise between those changes and the Leadership nerf. Mod 7 only added more sinks and more reasons to actually rely on leadership. The Zax didn't even change over all that time. It has been pegged at 500 for much longer then those 8 months. Far longer then mod 6. Far longer then when your opinion was different.
So what specifically changed in those 8 months to justify the full 180 degree change? I'm honestly curious.
I already stated in the post prior.
No you didn't. Yes, you mentioned some personal issues, and that is completely understandable if that was the sole reason. The part I'm curious about is the where you said stuff changed BOTH IN-GAME and out. You talked about the out, just not the game part.
The difference is important. Changes to the game effect us all, you said changes to the game influenced your opinions. Understanding of that might help many of us here to be open to new opinions. But if the change of opinion is strictly personal in nature, then criticizing people for not understanding it and being angry over the changes, seems rather silly.
Ah, I see what you mean. The part where I stated, "Yet if I wanted to keep affording the things I wanted, I could only do so by running a Leadership Army and to do so, on top of my alt-o'holic addiction and deteriorating health, meant I had even less time to spend playing the game once I got done doing Leadership rounds." is where in my head it made sense what I meant but I didn't elaborate.
So, to elaborate a bit:
For a while now, the game has slowly been becoming less and less friendly for multiple characters with the daily grinds. As more and more of my characters got to level 60 earlier this this year, it's become more and more of a chore to do all the newly added dailies, obtain new gear, obtain newer gear, afford new items, new level cap, and what-not and so on... on top of running Leadership. So, in short, the "in game part" is all about alt-friendliness, or lack there-of, both in gameplay and equipment/economy.
Also, a big part of my frustration is the Foundry, or lack there-of of any sort of commitment on the developer's part to make it what it was originally stated to be and should be to this day, an integral part of the game. There's little incentive to make or play foundry missions and then even if there was, due to the alt-unfriendliness of the game, I didn't even have the time to devote to the foundry.
I've cut back the number of characters that I actively play, drastically. From 28 down to 4 now. Still, I don't see how I'd have the time or in-game income to afford things with just those characters and be able to play the game without it feeling like a second job. It's like the game wants you to play a ton of characters just to afford things but on the same hand, says that if you do, you'd have to play grind them 24/7 (wee bit exaggeration for emphasis).
Im not against the change, Im against the improper implantation of it and how their EXTREMELY slow response to costing changes.
Until such a time they get on board fully, they are fully open to criticism by all.
+1. Actually, cost reduction should have been included the same day the revenue-reduction was implemented imo. Any day later than that, it's a mistake.
And if I'm honest with myself, I have to agree with Zeb about how leadership was becoming addictive/boring. I was just up to 17 toons, and was contemplating making more. It was getting pretty dull. It was the fact that it allowed me to see some 'toon-progress' at a reasonable pace that made it addictive. Now without it, what is there? No way I'm gonna run some dungeon over and over and over... would rather get a root canal.
Game overview: 1-60: blazing fast and fun (maybe too fast? I did it in 16 hours last toon) 60-70: kinda boring (was mod-6 computer generated?) Campaigns: fair, not that bad really. A few choices as far as timing etc. 70+: pay $1k or grind for a year+. ack! pvp: not much variety and the 'haves' just own, hence close-competitive matches are about 1 in 10.
And sadly, another part of the game I was really looking forward to enjoying was playing every class (dungeons and especially pvp). Each class plays differently, and it was kinda fun. But all the RP for artifacts, equip, stones, etc... make it impractical. This is probably the only MMO I've ever played where a player makes ALTs to support one main toon. Seems like in most games, it's the other way around...
Wow. I just read most of these posts. You guys don't sound like you're playing a game.. you sound like you're dabbling in the stock market.
To play Neverwinter, lesson #1, figure out how to finance the hero.
Uh... how about financing your character the way you are supposed to... by going out and adventuring ... you know.. DUNGEONS & DRAGONS...
upgraded companion: 350k for rank 1 500k for rank 2 750k for rank 3. 1M for rank 4. total cost 2.6M / 24k per day. = 109 days. upgraded horse: 600k for rank 2 1.4M for rank 3: 84 days.
going out adventuring gives no AD income. the only things that give ad income are skirmishes/dungeons( all 6 of them) and pvp. going out adventuring gets you gold. which you can use to buy potions and heal kits.
every time im in lostmauths lair and get a peridot for killing the dragon that is sitting on piles of gold and someone reminds me its DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS. i feel like hitting them with a brick. defeat valindra, thus saving neverwinter from imminent doom. here's yet another ring.
help every dorf in icewindale with their personal vendettas and you get to pay them 10's of thousands of ad for them to train you. and 100's of thousands of black ice for them to upgrade your armor. save the elves from being over run by redcaps. you get to pay them 10's of thousands of ad for them to train you. oh and heres a crappy ring. sorry we used to have decent equipment but none for you adventurer.
become a master weaponsmith, and none of your weapons are worth using.
yeah sure sounds like dungeons and dragons to me....
And with all of the talk of changes to the game, some of the ideas actually quite well thought out, the one element that continues to disturb me is just how silent the devs have been on this subject. The change to the GMoP pricing was a good first step, more need to be taken and sooner rather than later, but first and foremost the devs need to engage with their players. If we had an actual dialog running there's be less of an us v. them mentality around here.
Comments
"all the mods were previously talking about and advising people to get leadership armies" -- As for why some (not all by the way) were posting about and advising people to make characters and work leadership... well that was the best method. That's like hollering at someone for making a TR guide or suggestions from over a year ago as though it still had relevance today. Looking at it for any other reason doesn't seem right to me.
As for "all talking about how great the new system," that's only partly true for Ironzerg has posted threads and posts with suggestions to make the AD change better, and even I have posted some serious commentary on the cost of things post-AD changes.
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Leadership armies were an accepted function of game progression. Now they're gone.
I think this outcry is more based on the fact that mitigating factors were not including with the changes. AD allowances got cut in half (at best), but many prices remain the same. I'm not thrilled about that either.
If the game follows up with changing set-prices (transmutes, SH, boons, upgrade stones, pets, etc) to reflect AD changes, then I'd assume vexing sentiment will lower...maybe?
I don't know about you, but I didn't even consider leveling leadership until after I hit 60 (pre-mod6) and it takes a while to get it high enough to earn any real AD.
So what specifically changed in those 8 months to justify the full 180 degree change? I'm honestly curious.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
I dont even care about the profanity anymore. This game just gets worse and worse every day between the actions by the development team and the hardware issues. Wizards really needs to take this game away from Cryptic and PWE.
Not many would say there wasn't a problem, but exactly zero should be saying we are looking at a proper solution. Anyone who says we are will be rightly branded as delusional, uninformed or a straight up shill. I watched my guild that dated back to BETA 1 die because of this and had to find homes for my orphaned friends who wished to carry on, still hoping Scott and Co. would deliver a solution. It is heartbreaking how callously this was handled and how little the feelings of the players were taken into account. There is no expectation that anything will change for the better going forward and as much as I wanted to hang on and see if Mod 8 might bring a turnaround, I have spent quality time away from this mess and feel much better as a result. Maybe if I see that Mr Shicoff has left the building, but otherwise I'll count my blessings that I was able to break the addiction with his help.
I just waited a long time for a pop of CC or even GWD to do my two dungeon runs with my level 45 character, but nothing.
Not to mention, how often is it necessary to report the bug, where you get into a dungeon run but not into the dungeon group, before it gets fixed?
Since dungeon runs are now a vital part of earning some rAD per day, shouldn't that issue get at least some official statement? Which is then hopefully followed by a hotfix within a week, or something like that?
Some facts about how much life:
- http://steamcharts.com/app/109600 We know this is an incomplete stat, but it show us a trend. Quite negative.
- We've been discussing about AD many times in many forum threads. Only GMoPs were reworked and no other action has been done despite some weak announcements. The dev blog is just focused on Underdark.
- Quality of the life in NW. It would be nice to know how many bots are in game in order to know the real amount of players. Bots are an issue, but at the same time they increase the number of players -> Quite good when you have to report this value to your boss.
- Quite difficult to run dungeons using lfg: it means that life is very low. If there is life, that's concentrated in SH only as isolated community from the rest of the game.
This is my understanding of the situation. Concerning the solutions, a lot of interesteing ideas form the players, zero/very limited reaction from the dev team, shifting the expectations on UD while we need solution now.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
yeah, musta been that give me housing and let me sped lots of ad on it thread.
- The dungeons provide no real rewards, after getting the seals, there is no reason to do any them.
- There are so few dungeons
- Players are expected to do deadly long grinds or pay huge amounts of cash, but the game keeps being drastically changed, this means that doing deadly long grinds are too risky to waste time on
- The game still has way too many glaring bugs and design problems
- Cryptic dictate with zero regard to the players, they live in bubble and have never once honestly discuss all the problems they are facing and what they are going to do about it.
I only log in to get my daily VIP (another con job that got many suckers like me to waste money on), there is no real life left in this game.
— (The unwritten rule)
The difference is important. Changes to the game effect us all, you said changes to the game influenced your opinions. Understanding of that might help many of us here to be open to new opinions. But if the change of opinion is strictly personal in nature, then criticizing people for not understanding it and being angry over the changes, seems rather silly.
You log in you run some skirmishes or dd ,you are out.Compare this to Age of Conan for example or some older fantasy MMOs.And you complain about grind.
You all complain but most of you are here for 2 years.everything is boring to you.(and to me)
Nw is not a bad game as you think if you start fresh.
"But how i will be BiS?Imppossible now!!" .Well..it should never be easy to be BiS in first place.Sadly Cryptic responded very slowly to botting/glitching and exploiting.
Influential forumers here were part of guilds that exploited literally tenths if not hundreds of millions of ad in the game.
This led to the image -impression that running BiS is a must and something that should be achieved ASAP.
Economy ruined.That was the first big mistake of cryptic.it should respond with an iron fist like blizzard and ban the exploiters.
Second mistake and biggest of all?By far?
Arti gear.It should never be implemented in first place.Never.Cause it created a wall impossible to climb playing legit.
Cryptic overdone it.
Not in bad intend but seriously i think that at some point folks believed that all these players running purple arti gear 4 days after mod4 release,they somehow payed for it.
In a MMO,if you want to keep it healthy ,you put biS gear in the game by playing ,as rewards.
That was the case until /and, Mod3.Corrupted/purified gear /weapons could be aquired by playing the damn thing and not refining it.
Coinsidense?Most BiS players hate Mod3 with passion and were here in the forums arguing and shaming the whole mod,during and pre -preview release of IWD.
Yet IWD is still alive of players up to this day.
3rd mistake.Cryptic heared the same people that complained about mod3 ,the BiS players and since mod4 ,game took a new direction.
Arti gear and refining.Downfall started from there.Easy time you stay BiS by paying with your (exploited) AD.
As for these people -not to flame but to state some facts- one measure of their judjement is the recent dom changes.most were here applauding the dom contesting changes.How much reduce percentage from pvp from then?50%100%? Do some self critisism for a time folks.They always think for themselves and think a fresh 70 will think the same.Not counting the fact that are 0.000000001% of the population and demand things for the rest.Nvm.Sadly cryptic employees still hold in high esteem these players .Sad.
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As for the future?NW is here to stay.It has very good graphics (compared to other MMOS) ,it can be casual and hardcore at the same time.Superb action combat.Have you fought in Archeage?omg.
WotC will push for new content every 6-7 months.Xbox brought new population.
The competitors are in even worst shape.Archeage is ruined,the other sci fi cartoon one will going free to play.Rift has lower player base.
The new NW team is more responsive and creative .They will put the boat back to calm waters.So my advise is for all the old players:Stay in touch:take a break or whatever.But NW has years of life ahead of it.
Edit:Sorry for the wall of text.
You are either a moderator or a punter. I don't believe you can be both, despite the valiant efforts of the new mods.
And glib suggestions like "just do dungeons" are not the solution.
Anyway, new character/player will more than likely want to level to 70. So they go through the regular storyline (Probably get to level 62 or thereabouts by the time they finish whispering cavern). Then on to EE and lots of grinding in Fiery Pit to get to level 70. I doubt many will be spending an extra hour doing their 2 dungeons/skirmishes to get 12k rAD.
So now they're at 70 and need to buy some blue gear to get IL high enough to get into eLoL to get even better gear.
OR
Maybe they want to do Sharandar/DR/IWD for boons.
75,000 AD for Sharandar boons alone. I haven't looked up/added DR/IWD, or ToD.
Prior to this, by the time I hit level 70, I think my OP had about 600,000 AD (but I think I might have bought the blood ruby 3 pack and sold 2 on the AH, and my memory may be a bit off). And I certainly didn't run dungeons/skirms for an hour every day.
New player, by that time may have like 20k AD? (I vaguely recall there's a main storyline quest for doing a dungeon and a skirmish). Not sure how much you get if you stay on for hours and invoke all the time. I play about 1.5-2 hours/day.
Once you're 70, IF you have a good group, you can run CC/ToS in about 8 min each (so if you PUG you may be doing about 12 min. each as people like to kill every single critter instead of racing to the end). Let's average it at 10. 20 min. for 6k AD. Then you have to do 2 skirms. If you have people that don't know what they're doing I think the DR skirm takes about 12 min with an "ok" group. Longer if you have people that don't use headphones or pay attention to chat and screw up the portals. Let's say 15 min. each.
30 min for another 6k AD
Almost an hour for 12k AD.
When I should be leveling my char or getting boons.
Oh wait, can't get the boons. Need AD. Off to run dungeons/skirms
this has been stated many times before, but still no movement from Cryptic:
Costs need to be lowered or removed completely (boons shouldn't cost AD now)
AD gaining methods need to be increased (quests should give out AD, IMO).
And don't get me started on stronghold AD requirements.
Given cryptic's past performance, I doubt we'll see anything any time soon.
For those of us who've played since Beta, this is very sad and frustrating. I'm learning to like Skyforge now.
As always they act to slow and deliver half baked solutions, having trouble in correcting things afterwards.
I also can see that they do work on it, what should have happend in advance, so there is hope.
I also think they really should deal much more drastically with all these spammers, AD sellers, botters and heavy exploiters as you said, it breaks their neck and deals massive damage to their economy.
All in all I think the decision to disarmor the leadership armies was by far the most needed step to go, now they should adapt quick the ingame costs for other stuff
Such is the nature of publicly posting opinions.
But understand this. Much like life, the only constant in an MMO is change. And you also have to accept the fact that sometimes that change is out of your control, so you make the best of it. The leadership situation is one of those changes.
People look to me for advice, which I'm happy to given, freely and openly. When asked years and months ago about generating Astral Diamond income, the advice to use Leadership was genuine and freely given. And it's advice I don't regret giving. Because at the time, and understanding the mechanics and direction of the game is was GOOD advice.
Would it have done anyone any good to whine and complain in those leadership threads? Would it have helped anyone to tell them to give up and quit, to walk away and never player? Or complain about terrible game designs and how things SHOULD be different? In those specific threads you're linking, no. In other threads, of course.
So if you're going back and reviewing all the posts I've made and threads I've started over the last 2 years, I challenge you to also link the ones were I've vocally spoken out against the grind, the excessive costs of refinement, the challenge of leveling new toons to 70, or gearing up alts. I've been an outspoke critic of decisions made, but I've also been one to offer advice for people open to listening to help navigate and adjust to changes, good or bad, to the game.
I know it's easier to point fingers and hurdle insults than to think critically about these issues. And I know how easy it is to cherry pick from thousands of my posts to make a case. And I'll shrug it off.
And given how much more I know now about how widely abused the Gateway and Leadership was, more so now than I did a few months ago, I know it's extremely unlikely that you'll see these leadership changes reverted.
So you can accept that as one of those things that won't change. And then you look for things that you CAN change. Since the leadership change, how many threads have I put up suggesting other changes that benefit the players? How many comments have I made agreeing with the players, NOT the developers, about the need for other adjustments?
And how many more comments and threads will I start, offering what I believe are reasonable and needed changes to the game to make things more fun and enjoyable for the average player here, and less of a grind and less punishing?
Lots.
So if some people want to make a false case by cherry picking comments and quotes, be my guest. But I would also appeal to the more reasonable members of this community,* of whom there are many,* *to continue to offer up productive and intelligent posts*,* discussing needed changes* * and opportunities that can* * help make Neverwinter a better game for everyone. *
Until such a time they get on board fully, they are fully open to criticism by all.
So, to elaborate a bit:
For a while now, the game has slowly been becoming less and less friendly for multiple characters with the daily grinds. As more and more of my characters got to level 60 earlier this this year, it's become more and more of a chore to do all the newly added dailies, obtain new gear, obtain newer gear, afford new items, new level cap, and what-not and so on... on top of running Leadership. So, in short, the "in game part" is all about alt-friendliness, or lack there-of, both in gameplay and equipment/economy.
Also, a big part of my frustration is the Foundry, or lack there-of of any sort of commitment on the developer's part to make it what it was originally stated to be and should be to this day, an integral part of the game. There's little incentive to make or play foundry missions and then even if there was, due to the alt-unfriendliness of the game, I didn't even have the time to devote to the foundry.
I've cut back the number of characters that I actively play, drastically. From 28 down to 4 now. Still, I don't see how I'd have the time or in-game income to afford things with just those characters and be able to play the game without it feeling like a second job. It's like the game wants you to play a ton of characters just to afford things but on the same hand, says that if you do, you'd have to
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Actually, cost reduction should have been included the same day the revenue-reduction was implemented imo. Any day later than that, it's a mistake.
And if I'm honest with myself, I have to agree with Zeb about how leadership was becoming addictive/boring. I was just up to 17 toons, and was contemplating making more. It was getting pretty dull. It was the fact that it allowed me to see some 'toon-progress' at a reasonable pace that made it addictive. Now without it, what is there? No way I'm gonna run some dungeon over and over and over... would rather get a root canal.
Game overview:
1-60: blazing fast and fun (maybe too fast? I did it in 16 hours last toon)
60-70: kinda boring (was mod-6 computer generated?)
Campaigns: fair, not that bad really. A few choices as far as timing etc.
70+: pay $1k or grind for a year+. ack!
pvp: not much variety and the 'haves' just own, hence close-competitive matches are about 1 in 10.
And sadly, another part of the game I was really looking forward to enjoying was playing every class (dungeons and especially pvp). Each class plays differently, and it was kinda fun. But all the RP for artifacts, equip, stones, etc... make it impractical. This is probably the only MMO I've ever played where a player makes ALTs to support one main toon. Seems like in most games, it's the other way around...
total cost 2.6M / 24k per day. = 109 days.
upgraded horse: 600k for rank 2 1.4M for rank 3: 84 days.
going out adventuring gives no AD income. the only things that give ad income are skirmishes/dungeons( all 6 of them) and pvp. going out adventuring gets you gold. which you can use to buy potions and heal kits.
every time im in lostmauths lair and get a peridot for killing the dragon that is sitting on piles of gold and someone reminds me its DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS. i feel like hitting them with a brick.
defeat valindra, thus saving neverwinter from imminent doom. here's yet another ring.
help every dorf in icewindale with their personal vendettas and you get to pay them 10's of thousands of ad for them to train you. and 100's of thousands of black ice for them to upgrade your armor.
save the elves from being over run by redcaps. you get to pay them 10's of thousands of ad for them to train you. oh and heres a crappy ring. sorry we used to have decent equipment but none for you adventurer.
become a master weaponsmith, and none of your weapons are worth using.
yeah sure sounds like dungeons and dragons to me....