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DOM BiS Group vs Pickup Group? How to improve it?
icyphish
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,255 Arc User
There are some people complaining how premades are joining DOM just to trash undergears, lets ask yourself 2 questions
1. Would it be fun queuing for 10~15 minutes and then join a game where your opponent give up fighting in 1~2 minutes time then wait for another 5 minutes for the game to end...
2. If you have everything in the game, BiS equipment with max enchantment and 10 Blood Crystal artifacts or so, what would you buying with Glory Points? (you also gain a lot less glory points if the game ends that fast)
A lot of people assume BiS PvP groups joins DOM game to trash undergeared, but if you ask yourself the two questions above, maybe you would think otherwise?
BiS PvP team joining DOM are looking for other similar BiS team for a challenge, cus there is NOTHING that interest those players with the glory points rewarded, they can get another 200k glory points, but wont make any difference to their characters.
I understand its quite disappointing for average players to meet up those BiS teams as its hardly a fight, however please do not comment it harshly saying those BiS team are there to trash the undergeareds, cus if you consider point 1 and 2 again, you would understand that would not be the case.
Personally I feel the queuing system has improved compare to the past, 3+man queuing now has about 1/3~1/2 the chance to go up against other premade/semi-premades, and a full 5man premade, now has about 1/2 the chance to meet up with other full premades, and this is what premade teams are after. If you are a 2~3k ilvl player and see some other 4k+ ilvl monster in your enemy team, the chance is your team probably also has one of those 4k ilvl players (not all the time but MOST of the time in my experience). I believe Cryptic is doing a better job and I really can't think of a better way to do it better, cus at the end if they are going to stricten the matching system again, then a lot of ppl's gonna have to wait 30~60 minutes for a game to popup, and I know a lot of people would simply quit queuing and go for GG or something that has a faster pop.
All I am saying is, if you are not happy with how some system works, and believe a system can be better in other ways, then by all means, give Constructive Suggestion with a possible Solution to improve the situation, not simply saying 'This doesn't work, fix it', 'we can be better if we fix this system' (but how?), cus ask yourself the same question again, if you are the dev and ppl are complaining how something isn't working but you cant think of anyway to make the situation better, then what do you do? nothing, period. Give constructive feedbacks with possible solutions would definitely be more helpful and appreciated.
1. Would it be fun queuing for 10~15 minutes and then join a game where your opponent give up fighting in 1~2 minutes time then wait for another 5 minutes for the game to end...
2. If you have everything in the game, BiS equipment with max enchantment and 10 Blood Crystal artifacts or so, what would you buying with Glory Points? (you also gain a lot less glory points if the game ends that fast)
A lot of people assume BiS PvP groups joins DOM game to trash undergeared, but if you ask yourself the two questions above, maybe you would think otherwise?
BiS PvP team joining DOM are looking for other similar BiS team for a challenge, cus there is NOTHING that interest those players with the glory points rewarded, they can get another 200k glory points, but wont make any difference to their characters.
I understand its quite disappointing for average players to meet up those BiS teams as its hardly a fight, however please do not comment it harshly saying those BiS team are there to trash the undergeareds, cus if you consider point 1 and 2 again, you would understand that would not be the case.
Personally I feel the queuing system has improved compare to the past, 3+man queuing now has about 1/3~1/2 the chance to go up against other premade/semi-premades, and a full 5man premade, now has about 1/2 the chance to meet up with other full premades, and this is what premade teams are after. If you are a 2~3k ilvl player and see some other 4k+ ilvl monster in your enemy team, the chance is your team probably also has one of those 4k ilvl players (not all the time but MOST of the time in my experience). I believe Cryptic is doing a better job and I really can't think of a better way to do it better, cus at the end if they are going to stricten the matching system again, then a lot of ppl's gonna have to wait 30~60 minutes for a game to popup, and I know a lot of people would simply quit queuing and go for GG or something that has a faster pop.
All I am saying is, if you are not happy with how some system works, and believe a system can be better in other ways, then by all means, give Constructive Suggestion with a possible Solution to improve the situation, not simply saying 'This doesn't work, fix it', 'we can be better if we fix this system' (but how?), cus ask yourself the same question again, if you are the dev and ppl are complaining how something isn't working but you cant think of anyway to make the situation better, then what do you do? nothing, period. Give constructive feedbacks with possible solutions would definitely be more helpful and appreciated.
Post edited by icyphish on
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i think you need fill in your first post. reverse it. of course we know they dont need reward, of course we know they dont enjoy camping under enemy spawn (but not all). So you as a member of these, tell us once and for all WHY DO THEY PLAY LIKE THIS? To roflstomp everyone and than be bored when they know its almost always like this. Since there is not enough pvpers (and its for a long time), matches are always like that. Premades win, pugs lost.
so my suggestion? dont be afraid, take your courage and solo que. you all working together, so you can set one day as day with no premade que for pvp guilds. Once all go solo, there will be much more better matches and guess what, undergeared pug will see they have chance to win, when pvp guild members fight at mid and weaker players for one and three for example. And more people will start play pvp regularly. In my point of view, its only about courage do first step or are they afraid of lynching? ))) .... since you personally play solo que, you understand, its not so bad, shouldnt be so bad if...
obviously we cant wait another years for cryptic solution
p.s. icyphish, why do you change guild?
When a wolf pack over hunts an area they do not return to that area for years. So that area can repopulate with their food. Humans are not smart enough to do that. Native tribes understand this rationale... but "civilized" man has no concept of that notion.
You want to act like a Virus... you will have to handle the decimation of your food source... and eventual death due to starvation.
You want to fight premades...? Be smart enough to set some inner-guild competitions... instead of lurking for fodder in the pawns on the board. I am sure you all talk to each other... so talk about setting up guild v guild PvP premade matches. And leave the pugs to fight each other.
There is absolutely NOTHING you can say that I cannot shoot down, regarding the massive trolling of pugs by premade PvP guilds feeling entitled to run PvP anytime they want.
You want to play your game YOUR way... Play it that way. Set up two 10 man teams or two 5 man teams.. organize within the PvP guilds.
If that is too much work... then I guess you really do like pug-stomping.
@vinceent1 during the NCL... many really talented PvP guild members actually did enter solo. They saw it as the only way to get true competition. But teaching old dogs new tricks is a lot harder when the roflstomping has become institutionalized in nearly all PvP guild make-up.
They don't have to play the matches like that... they choose to do it that way. They would rather it take 5 minutes than to fight for 20 more and wait in a queue for 15 minutes to fight for another 20... and so on. They see fighting pugs as a waste of their time.
Since that is the case... you now have two choices to make. I have a difficult time believing that no one ever thought of these options before us.
I have also been asking for 2 different queues since the beginning of June... and no one caught on until the NCL debacle. Now everyone sees that this is not just a suggestion but a necessary tool for any future NCL competitions nd ALL PvP matches
+10000
well said bro vincent,...its not we against you icy,...but what the things he(vincent) suggested its a good thing..
just try one day....just one day..no premade...hopefully..all the big pvp guild listen this...
change for all of us....
nice....two thumbs up
There are many solutions. Solo/group queue, reducing the gear gap, gear score matching, allow you to preview opposition and turn down matches etc etc. And they've all been discussed ad nauseam. Let's not pretend either that the devs get the feedback and respond appropriately. Maybe the information doesn't travel up or its disagreed with but here we are.
The only thing they tried was elo and we know how that worked out. The difficulty is they look a thing once and then they never come back to it unless it gets so drastic that they do a quick and dirty sledgehammer change without the consequences being thought through.
So mostly its kind of in our hands. And we are often terrible people.
@dkbodhi They used to do all that private matchmaking quite a bit back along but I don't know if it happens anymore because I don't care. Not to say that there were not people pug smashing.
You know there is mad respect. Some of us do not know about in-house fights... I have been a small part of some of them in this game and a large part of them in others. Where entire maps were PvP... friend vs. friend happened all the time. These were all gladiator-like fights to the death. We would play tag on the PvP maps... as well as hide and seek.
It is the choice to roflstomp every match that is hurting the case for premades. Symbiosis... is the word. You want better competition among the pugs?
I have an idea... help them... coach them. I know not everyone is you. And I have seen players in a pugstomp helping members of my party with their builds, teaching them rotations and even being target dummies for their training.
If you want things to change, that has to start with changing you, first... and then things will change around you.
That is a very old and well-known Buddhist concept that has a lot of validity. So much so that Sister Theresa used it all them time. You cannot change others... but you can influence change.
hm, what is many? since pvp population is small, many is not enough looks like. And que against each other? Not so sure, since you are guarded by negation, it should be nightmare play these matches. happens sometimes pvp guild play on both sides of match of course
The PvP population is not a small population in this game. I would say that it may equal the PvE population or be closer to a 40/60 mix.
What icyphish is saying is that they HOPE to get a premade, but it rarely happens. Trust me... people who pug know that it rarely happens. No one is trying to take away your enjoyment, but as you said it is not enjoyable to roflstomp... yet it is done a thousand times a day. Many more times than premade v premade happens.
There are those of us who enjoy PvP, but do not want to join a PvP guild... but we do want to be the best that we can. There are more people who are just looking for their 4000 AD... or possibly 8000.
After the match, I partied with him, another gwf on his team, one of his mates that happened to be on my team and another guy that was their mate (but was not in the match) and looked over their gear. I bought all of them full sets of blue gear with tenacity and gave them a few rank 7s each to get them started in the right directions. But I don't do these things and come here and say, "look what I did for a pug today.
I spend a lot of time helping folks but honestly it's getting old. I help folks because it means someone else can enjoy the game and pvp a little more but why bother at this point. People are willing to spend a great amount of energy in the forums with their crusade against pvp guilds. How much energy do I have to spend stomping pugs or refusing to let them cap or not answering their questions? Very little, however, I choose to spend the energy instead to increase their quality of life instead (when I can). But it's really not worth it...maybe I should just become the evil pvp guild member you guys would have everyone believe that we are.
Some people are going to want to mitigate that by putting people on the right gear/build path but unfortunately others are going to want to exploit it for reasons no one should be proud of.
I said character effectiveness rather than player effectiveness for a reason. No one should care if bad players lose. If average players get destroyed because their characters are simply trash compared to better geared characters well, we know what that game looks like.
What we should all want is characters of similar effectiveness in matches against each other and then the players can be good or bad so far as their brains allow.
yeah, frog needs to turn a leg a bit)))
still bigger probabilty then expect cryptic update
Trust me when I say that I know how it feels to help others and then see and hear them talk about how no one helps them... after I offered my help. We are talking RL now. It is in my nature to help as many people as possible... even if I get <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> upon. It is not the easy route, but it is the route I choose for my sanity. I could easily be a monster and destroy all of the weakness that witness daily, but I am not an animal though I am an animal.
How people do certain things mirrors how they feel about themselves. I understand that and it pains me to be roflstomped... not because it makes me feel like I suck either... but because the human controlling that toon may have had the worst day of their life. <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> empathy sucks... sometimes.
It is many that solo q...I know this because I see it and do it all the time, since I'm in a pvp guild. Many just duo q....I know this because I see this all the time, since I'm in a pvp guild.
We q against each other for a number of reasons and often enough. We do this because it is good practice and it is a fun challenge....stomping pugs is neither of those things. And who cares about the gear (negation), everyone has it or the other popular enchant. All of the gear, the player skill and tactics makes for a long match when you do an inhouse. That's good because that is the intense challenge we like.
Ideal, isn't it.
Since only the premade whales will ever queue to "Rank Queues", it would be almost guaranteed that they will always meet similar premades of their own calibre, while assuring "Normal Queues" would have the ironic fairness of random teams. Sometimes your team is sheet, other times it is good. Multiple whales from a certain time zone queue to "Normal queues" and it will be assured that they will be spread between the teams, instead of the previous premade-trolling where they would gather every good player from that timezone and always face weak opponents in a slaughter.
When this happens, you know what's going to happen next?
ALL the premade whales are still going to queue for PuG games. Oh yes, I can guarantee you that.
I assure you, the "We just want a fun game with similarly skilled/geared opponents, and it's not our fault when there ain't those around" punchline is simply a joke. A lie.
Wanna know the reality of how things go around?
The vainglorious beings these PvP guild people are, they're not going to queue for "Rank Queues" unless they have a set engagement so they can queue with their best members of their guild. In most cases even the largest PvP guilds don't always have the "ace" players always online. What is going to happen, is that they don't want to lose, and they don't really want to ALWAYS fight people on their own level. In general, if they play maybe 10 matches a day, among them about 2 of them are the "real game" against their own level of competition, and other 8 matches are the "relaxation, sheets and giggles" time where they also spend their casual time slaughtering people.
This, as a result, despite those premade trolls get EXACTLY what they pretend they want -- a queue that will always ensure similar level of competition -- they will actually not queue for it, the "Rank Queues" are going to go dry and barren, and then they are going to start a big train of complaints on the forums about how people are prejudiced and they are wrongly persecuted through the queue system.
That's what's going to happen.
How many times do you think I've seen things go down that way during my last 20 years of online gaming experience? Like said, in my prime, more than 10 years ago, I was basically same as those premade troll buffoons. Everything they say about how they 'care' for the PvP community, or how the also 'lament' the imbalanced queues, or how they just innocently, truly want 'fair-and-square fun' is simply lying through their teeth. Every single comment in that sympathetic manner, is simple hypocrisy.
In reality they don't give a sheet.
People who really do care about balance or fair game or fun for everyone -- they don't do that trolling sheet in the first place. The handful few people who do 'stupid' stuff like purposefully staying away from certain gear sets, or certain builds or classes, these are the only people who actually act according to what they mouth-off in the forums, and these 'righteous few' are always few and far between.
Don't be naive, folks. This is coming from first-hand experience both as a victim and perpatrator.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
As one of my Western Civ profs once said... "every man fantasizes about having blood up to his elbows and engaging in mortal combat... to truly know that he is alive."
Hemmingway even stated similar... "you cannot know someone until you have seen them fight." He also suggested that meant as much for knowing one's self as it did to knowing another.
- You wouldnt have to wait for the queue
- You get 100% chance to get challenging match
- It wouldnt affect leaderboards for obvious(?) reasons
Now this... could work quite well.
Not to sound high and mighty, but what if I told you he was not a minority? I myself have also helped geared up pugs on the first day I met them. And have answered many questions and made suggestions to others. I also know other people who have done the same. In the end it's a game and just because someone may end up pugstomping in a pvp game doesn't mean they enjoy "the abuse of others".
SAMOTHRACE
Trickster Rogue
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I believe that this desire to thoroughly roflstomp pugs is either a bad day or an issue of maturity... and frustration at this game.
As I also said... having a horrible day can make someone really agitated to the point of needing to break <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Trust me I know this feeling. It does not make them a bad person.
However... having peace of mind during the matches could actually allow for more competition due to more people being willing to enter the queue.
Like if a PvP guild leadership set rules like such:
A rule that pugstomping would be kept to a minimum to allow for more competition.
A rule that states no more than 1 premade can enter a specific GG match.
A rule that the lower levels players must queue solo until they are proven to be somewhat honorable.
As I said... if the PvP guilds desire a better standing with all PvPers... the change has to start within. It cannot be started on the outside. You cannot ask us to change how we want to play the game... just like we cannot ask you to change how you play.
If you want what you want... then you have to sacrifice something to get it. Diplomacy is all about getting exactly what you want... and making the other guy think it was his idea. The way you do that is through compromise and changing expectations.
This will of course start within a small minority and expand slowly as this minority influences others. That is the way of the Revolution of the Soul.
i think the same. they have builds for 5 man parties and are unable to success 1 vs 1
The fact is, before I joined a PvP guild, I have already been slaughtering most of the players I came across, I thought I was owning great only to find there are so many more areas in PvP than just a player's combat power. Being in a PvP guild with a lot of people that consistently spend time to work out how their class really work, testing different builds, different encounters, different setups and that's how a lot of elite builds are created, but back then, all I knew was whacking ppl with cookie cutter encounters everyone else is using and setting up characters whichever way I liked, at the end, the tests, math, trainings made the difference. Ask yourself this question, how much do you know about your opponent's skills? How much 1 vs 1 training did you have to improve your skills? How many of you are being 2~3 shotted by GF and not knowing how to beat them? How many of you average GWFs know how to counter a TR and beat down most you come across? How many of you studied how OP works and when to do your burst dmg? How many of you actually sit down, tested seemingly useless encounters and try to find a setup to make it work?
If you have done all the above then you earn my respects and have your fair share, I would acknowledge you as an experienced 1 vs 1 player.
As to teamwork, I think there is really no point discussing it, cus really players that are not in a PvP guild would not have much chance to learn. Everywhere from how to assign your group, how positioning are to be arranged, how switching works (fast switching is often the key to premade wins), how hardcapping makes the difference, how to dispatch temporary small groups to hardcap/support/assist and not just kills. How to effectively score points while preventing enemies from scoring? How targets should be piortised and focused? How teams are to be switched?
In a realistic world, nobody beats everyone, but how to effectively switch yourself depending on your enemy team's tactics usually makes the difference. In high end fights, both groups usually keeps switching their grouping/tactics until one works, and that eventually become the winning team, its more than just brutal pvp beatdowns and this is exactly why even a similar GS premade from a pug team fights an experience PvP team, they wont even have much chance, tactics makes a lot of difference.
*Thats why certain PvP guild that has been stomping pugs in GG although they are highly geared, are usually no match to other top PvP guilds....
PS: A quick test. My sure strike non crit hits 3-4k on dummy target, how do you turn it into 60k+ dmg one hit? Show me how far you actually worked on your character
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
of course its nice to win as coordinate team, which rarely is in the pug, but reality is premades dont need advanced tactics to win nowadays. they either beat pugs or some weak premade. there are no other strong premades in the que to fight them.
solutions -
1. cryptic change matchmaking, maybe other things, fix most unbalanced bugged items - maybe later, maybe never
2. cryptic make pvp less about gear? no way
3. pvp guilds step down, do solo que (and not integrate into one super guild) and let pvp population recovery? ...