theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
edited June 2015
That doesn't really follow though. You admitted it yourself, no one is using zen for RP. You use zen for wards. But anyone who is going to spend money for zen can just use the zen to buy wards and sell them on the AH. The only way the zen market will self-correct is if so many people do that that there's no longer a profit margin in selling zen items on the AH.
The market distortion is the existence of a cap. At the current moment, the "true market value" of zen in terms of AD-eg what people would be willing to pay for zen-is over 500. And because of the cap, people are aware that buying zen is a profit for its own sake.
That being said, it's certainly possible that were the cap to be removed, the "market price" of zen would be like, 1000 or something, and then each Preservation Ward would cost 10k. But I feel like we won't be able to address those issues until we're actually able to see what the market wants.
That doesn't really follow though. You admitted it yourself, no one is using zen for RP. You use zen for wards. But anyone who is going to spend money for zen can just use the zen to buy wards and sell them on the AH. The only way the zen market will self-correct is if so many people do that that there's no longer a profit margin in selling zen items on the AH.
The market distortion is the existence of a cap. At the current moment, the "true market value" of zen in terms of AD-eg what people would be willing to pay for zen-is over 500. And because of the cap, people are aware that buying zen is a profit for its own sake.
That being said, it's certainly possible that were the cap to be removed, the "market price" of zen would be like, 1000 or something, and then each Preservation Ward would cost 10k. But I feel like we won't be able to address those issues until we're actually able to see what the market wants.
It seems like you are looking at this Zen market from an Elitist angle. Not everybody uses Zen only to buy enchantments, RP and Wards. If there are only these kinds of players left, it is almost done. Remember the time when there were a lot more players buying different things like packs, mounts, boosts, etc from the Zen market? Remember what was the Zen/Ad conversion rate? 1 Zen for 350-400 AD, not over 500 AD as some said the cap should be removed. Back then, players had other fun stuffs to buy to make the game fun THEIR WAY, not the RP sellers' way.
It seems like you are looking at this Zen market from an Elitist angle. Not everybody uses Zen only to buy enchantments, RP and Wards. If there are only these kinds of players left, it is almost done. Remember the time when there were a lot more players buying different things like packs, mounts, boosts, etc from the Zen market? Remember what was the Zen/Ad conversion rate? 1 Zen for 350-400 AD, not over 500 AD as some said the cap should be removed. Back then, players had other fun stuffs to buy to make the game fun THEIR WAY, not the RP sellers' way.
if they pumped out some cool detailed armor transmogs that werent just 1 piece as part of a 3000-3500 zen set. I'd totally buy some of those, as it is I use Zen for Keys when a new box comes out, Coal wards (occasionally when my tradebar / invoke coals run out) and the ZAX.
I think increasing the cap too 1000:1 would give it some room. I have a fair few friends who would jump on buying a bit extra zen if the return in AD was doubled for them. the problem is those people who put in a 500 bid then just leave it there afk for ages, because essentially we wouldn't go back below that cap very quickly , as it could sell higher, so ultimately this isnt a great solution
what we REALLY need is a 25-50% increased zen sale, or something of the likes. Get more Zen into the game too combat the inflated exchange and get some of that AD spent / sunk into enchants / other stuff. I personally think that if the game automatically had its own little "stock" of zen that it would pump through the exchange every day, they could decrease the cap massively, but then they'd be losing revenue (same with doing a 50% zen event, lost potential earnings, although a sale like that entices players who usually don't spend money, too spend some money, which might balance it out a little in terms of the actual amount sold.)
if they pumped out some cool detailed armor transmogs that werent just 1 piece as part of a 3000-3500 zen set. I'd totally buy some of those, as it is I use Zen for Keys when a new box comes out, Coal wards (occasionally when my tradebar / invoke coals run out) and the ZAX.
I think increasing the cap too 1000:1 would give it some room. I have a fair few friends who would jump on buying a bit extra zen if the return in AD was doubled for them. the problem is those people who put in a 500 bid then just leave it there afk for ages, because essentially we wouldn't go back below that cap very quickly , as it could sell higher, so ultimately this isnt a great solution
what we REALLY need is a 25-50% increased zen sale, or something of the likes. Get more Zen into the game too combat the inflated exchange and get some of that AD spent / sunk into enchants / other stuff. I personally think that if the game automatically had its own little "stock" of zen that it would pump through the exchange every day, they could decrease the cap massively, but then they'd be losing revenue (same with doing a 50% zen event, lost potential earnings, although a sale like that entices players who usually don't spend money, too spend some money, which might balance it out a little in terms of the actual amount sold.)
Look at the backlog first, it is only about 2.5 million Zen. It takes only 2 days for the order to fill. So, there are really not a lot of players buying. Nobody seems to be eager to buy any Zen as there are not really any most sought Zen Market items on sale. Why? Nothing there changes a player's gaming experience more than slightly. Every week it is mount sale, dye sale, fashion sale. If I submit a buy order now, 2 days later, I will get it filled and be ready for next weekend's sale, whatever it is. There is really no urgency for me to pay more AD to buy a Zen.
Players on the buy side of the Zen Exchange tells you they don't have any urgency to buy, so no need to raise the cap. Everybody can wait a couple of days for an order to get filled and still has plenty of time for next week's sale, even if there is something they want to buy.
I'd be interested to see what the price of zen would be if there was just no cap at all.
When the sky is the limit, people will charge the sky.
I'll give an example: Over at Battle of the Immortals, the limit used to be 1m coins per 100 ZEN (you can only buy or sell zen in increments of 100 there). Then the limit went up to 10m coins.
Guess what I hear over there: "Bawww....lower the limit! I can't buy any ZEN now!!" And why is that? Because the going price is a solid 10m coins per 100.
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When the sky is the limit, people will charge the sky.
I'll give an example: Over at Battle of the Immortals, the limit used to be 1m coins per 100 ZEN (you can only buy or sell zen in increments of 100 there). Then the limit went up to 10m coins.
Guess what I hear over there: "Bawww....lower the limit! I can't buy any ZEN now!!" And why is that? Because the going price is a solid 10m coins per 100.
Yeah , thats why I think increasing the cap wont solve anything but make it more expensive for new players.
Then again I don't buy zen on the Zax, if I have left over zen I usually sell it. So ultimately if they increased it i'd be more happy than sad. haha
I'd be interested to see what the price of zen would be if there was just no cap at all.
It would go through the roof, because players are producing more and more AD over time (simply due to leadership lvl upgrades and making more accounts or alts to get even more AD)
Those who abused the bugs in the past would just try to buy as much as possible and re-sell it later during some big sales.
ZEN value can only go up, simply because it's related to real $ and it's in Cryptic business to release new interesting store items, so players will buy more ZEN with $.
That's why removing the limit is very risky. It's better to increase it because it's not only safe but also logical. Since players can produce more AD than in the past, so they can buy more ZEN = higher backlog. If more AD is being produced then cap should also increase to keep the ratio relevant. If they dont increase the cap, at some point there will be so much AD that backlog will also go through the roof.
Basically, prices in AH will go up due to more AD being on the market and exchanging ZEN for AD will be pointless, because you wont be able to do much with the very little AD that you can get from it.
For example, cheapest Perfect Nagation in AH cost ~10k AD atm. that's 20k ZEN and about ~200$ for just one item which is not even BIS and things can only go worse over time if cap stays the same. Now think for a while, how many players will be willing to spend so much $ in a game with so broken economy.
Most players who post it dont take in to consideration that amount of produced AD can only go up, unless:
1. lot's of players stop playing
2. Cryptic will rework leadership to not give AD anymore, but RP instead.
When the sky is the limit, people will charge the sky.
I'll give an example: Over at Battle of the Immortals, the limit used to be 1m coins per 100 ZEN (you can only buy or sell zen in increments of 100 there). Then the limit went up to 10m coins.
Guess what I hear over there: "Bawww....lower the limit! I can't buy any ZEN now!!" And why is that? Because the going price is a solid 10m coins per 100.
This is absolutely correct. No one is forcing anyone to sell their zen, so if the ad rate seems too low to anyone, simply don't sell your zen. Spend it. I'm sure cryptic will be ok with that.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Yeah , thats why I think increasing the cap wont solve anything but make it more expensive for new players.
Then again I don't buy zen on the Zax, if I have left over zen I usually sell it. So ultimately if they increased it i'd be more happy than sad. haha
The somewhat irritating bit is that the people complaining and requesting the change are the people who would be negatively effected and simply can't understand why the limitations are good for them.
They post as if prices remain fixed without understanding prices are dynamic. I mean a few pages ago they argued with me that only the cost of Zen Store items would increase in cost. Bottom line is when AD value drops and the value of the other items does not change then the cost even from other players drops will go up. They have this ridiculous notion that prices of items not tied to the Zen Store will stay exactly as is...
It would go through the roof, because players are producing more and more AD over time (simply due to leadership lvl upgrades and making more accounts or alts to get even more AD)
Those who abused the bugs in the past would just try to buy as much as possible and re-sell it later during some big sales.
ZEN value can only go up, simply because it's related to real $ and it's in Cryptic business to release new interesting store items, so players will buy more ZEN with $.
That's why removing the limit is very risky. It's better to increase it because it's not only safe but also logical. Since players can produce more AD than in the past, so they can buy more ZEN = higher backlog. If more AD is being produced then cap should also increase to keep the ratio relevant. If they dont increase the cap, at some point there will be so much AD that backlog will also go through the roof.
Basically, prices in AH will go up due to more AD being on the market and exchanging ZEN for AD will be pointless, because you wont be able to do much with the very little AD that you can get from it.
For example, cheapest Perfect Nagation in AH cost ~10k AD atm. that's 20k ZEN and about ~200$ for just one item which is not even BIS and things can only go worse over time if cap stays the same. Now think for a while, how many players will be willing to spend so much $ in a game with so broken economy.
Most players who post it dont take in to consideration that amount of produced AD can only go up, unless:
1. lot's of players stop playing
2. Cryptic will rework leadership to not give AD anymore, but RP instead.
Players don't produce more AD than in the past. They produce much much less. Most of the AD sources were removed. AD can further be removed if there are Zen Store items worthy to buy so players will convert their AD to Zen but the low order tells you they are not buying because there is nothing worthy to buy. Everything is RP, RP, RP since Mod 6.
Don't tell me players produce more RP now so there are more AD. RP is not the same as AD. Price of RP should have been crushed due to the lack of AD. Maybe you run 100 leadership alts and produce mega RP now but if nobody has the AD to buy it, it will be trash. Artificially inflated price doesn't help the economy it only makes it much expensive to buy with the lack of AD.
In the past, players have different things they could buy that helped them to find the game entertaining but not now. It is like buying pack of bubble gum. If it only takes 25 cents to buy a pack, a lot of people will buy it even though nobody will say "Uh oh! I am running out of bubble gum, I need to go to the supermarket and buy it". But if you change the marketing strategy to get a free pack of bubble gem with the purchase of $10,000 worth of grocery and bubble gem is only available through this offer, nobody will buy the bubble gem and the supermarket goes out of business especially when nobody has the $10,000 to buy the grocery.
This game runs on Zen and AD, not RP. It is not how many AD should a Zen worth for the players to buy Zen. It is what else other than the HAMSTER RP they will buy.
Raising or removing the cap of the Zen Exchange does nothing to both the supply of AD and demand of the unwanted RP and other goods. It will only enrich the ones who hoard Zen hoping one day the cap will be raised.
theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
edited June 2015
The bottom line is, there's no AD inflation. If the price of items on the AH haven't jumped tenfold, why exactly do we expect zen to jump tenfold?
Hoarding zen hoping the cap will eventually be raised is extremely foolish. It's far more profitable to buy items with that zen and then sell those on the AH (as I described earlier), and then reinvest that as zen. But this only works when there's an arbitrary cap on the price of zen. Otherwise, the market price of zen-purchased items on the AH will fall to the point where it's no longer profitable (again for reasons I described earlier).
Lockboxes and keys have the possibility of allowing zen purchasers to make a profit due to the assumed risk involved. But right now, the artificial price cap in zen just allows players to say "I give these people the ability to not have to wait for their preservation wards, ergo I can make a profit out of that."
Removing the cap causes people to no longer be able to make money on the basis of speculation. Does it make things cost more in terms of AD? You betcha it does. But anyone who's just sitting on a hoard of zen is incompetent as far as someone who's trying to make a profit anyway, because reinvesting and taking advantage of the current price ceiling has a way better rate of return.
If nothing else, the fact that people can buy zen to make a profit without worrying that their zen holdings will go down in value causes people to be more willing to purchase zen. I for one hardly ever purchased zen when it was in the 400 AD range, because I didn't want to expose myself to the risk involved. But when you purchase zen now, you know "oh hey, it's remaining at 500 and has for a year." And you also know "Oh, the time delay gives me that potential for positive returns." So you buy zen. Even if you have nothing to individually use it on. You buy it. And that props up the price of the zen.
Paradoxically, the zen could fall if the cap were removed, simply because speculation isn't possible anymore. That being said? Yeah, there would almost certainly be a period of the zen doubling in price, then people trying to continue making money off of it, and then the price would fall down into the 400s again. It'd be a bursting bubble. Removing the ceiling is essentially deliberately popping the bubble.
I mean, the alternative would just be to make 100% of zen purchases be bind to account. That would work.
Players don't produce more AD than in the past. They produce much much less. Most of the AD sources were removed. AD can further be removed if there are Zen Store items worthy to buy so players will convert their AD to Zen but the low order tells you they are not buying because there is nothing worthy to buy. Everything is RP, RP, RP since Mod 6.
Don't tell me players produce more RP now so there are more AD. RP is not the same as AD. Price of RP should have been crushed due to the lack of AD. Maybe you run 100 leadership alts and produce mega RP now but if nobody has the AD to buy it, it will be trash. Artificially inflated price doesn't help the economy it only makes it much expensive to buy with the lack of AD.
In the past, players have different things they could buy that helped them to find the game entertaining but not now. It is like buying pack of bubble gum. If it only takes 25 cents to buy a pack, a lot of people will buy it even though nobody will say "Uh oh! I am running out of bubble gum, I need to go to the supermarket and buy it". But if you change the marketing strategy to get a free pack of bubble gem with the purchase of $10,000 worth of grocery and bubble gem is only available through this offer, nobody will buy the bubble gem and the supermarket goes out of business especially when nobody has the $10,000 to buy the grocery.
This game runs on Zen and AD, not RP. It is not how many AD should a Zen worth for the players to buy Zen. It is what else other than the HAMSTER RP they will buy.
Raising or removing the cap of the Zen Exchange does nothing to both the supply of AD and demand of the unwanted RP and other goods. It will only enrich the ones who hoard Zen hoping one day the cap will be raised.
If botters can lvl new alts just to spam the chat they can also lvl new alts to farm AD through leadership. AD income weren't removed but changed. I can still reach refiling cap on several characters simply because T1 gear from dungeon is BTA and salvaging each gives me 3-5k.
RP from leadership should be BTA and for artifact gear only, so all those bots who create million accounts wont be able to transfer it.
The somewhat irritating bit is that the people complaining and requesting the change are the people who would be negatively effected and simply can't understand why the limitations are good for them.
They post as if prices remain fixed without understanding prices are dynamic. I mean a few pages ago they argued with me that only the cost of Zen Store items would increase in cost. Bottom line is when AD value drops and the value of the other items does not change then the cost even from other players drops will go up. They have this ridiculous notion that prices of items not tied to the Zen Store will stay exactly as is...
Ok Ive held off posting, but I think I will do a real quick weigh in.
From a pure economics standpoint there are a few issues with the "pricing" in this game that I see as an issue.
1) A LARGE focus on "MACRO" transactions rather than MICRO transaction are KILLING the potential sales of PWE/Cryptic.
2) Third Party sites offer players a massive massive "advantage" from a price perspective than Cryptic.
3) The ZAX is capped which means if a player wants AD, the MOST they will get is 1M for $20.
4) AD gained through leadership - causes a BIG divide between "old school" players and new players. I literally know a handful of guys that make over 1 million AD a day (YES -1 MIL A DAY) from leadership.
So lets examine these:
1) This is the BIGGEST issue in this game currently. The deviation from micro into full blown macro. There have been TONS of articles written about this and how its a bad model. Just do a quick google search and you will see this.
Just a few examples of Macrotransactions that could have JUST as easily been Micro.
Module Unlocks - 5,000 zen. This is something that could have JUST as easily been 200 zen for a "daily reset" instead. I know a TON of players who would gladly reach in their pockets for several daily resets because they also want to farm the content themselves too but speed it up just a tad. Macro? Bad. Micro - GOOD.
Micro Transactions need to be a MUCH bigger focus in the game. There needs to be only a VERY small % of things to buy that are over $10 range with a MAJORITY of things <$10. That is a micro transaction.
Also, its been proven over and over that people are willing to pay MASSIVELY for cosmetics. This is the BIGGEST area Cryptic isnt even capitalizing on!!! What they need to do are drop "power items" (Items you can buy that make you more powerful) and start focusing on cosmetics. Do you even realize HOW much people would pay for mount dye packs? Or Companion Dye packs?!?
2&3) This is something that has been a problem since day 1 and its sadly avoidable to an extent. Cryptic has MORE than the ability to squash these sites but continues to not.... If a player wants AD, they can go third party and get nearly 3x the amount for the same money. If a player wants zen, its easier to buy AD third party and convert to zen via the ZAX. Heck I wouldnt even be THAT surprised if players from OTHER games who wanted zen find it more economical to buy it third party xfer it through Neverwinter to their account then bring it over to STO for instance. Its just silly.
INSTEAD of an increase on the cap (which I dont think is a bad idea BTW because the cap is FORCING inefficient markets) what honestly needs to happen is Cryptic needs to REMOVE the ZAX and offer TWO prices of EVERYTHING in the zen store: An AD price and a ZEN price.
Then Cryptic themselves can offer a SET "Zen:AD" conversion rate but ONLY for players who HAVE zen and WANT AD. Not the other way around!
Now what Cryptic can do is offer a higher AD price for the zen you purchase. Also in the Zen store they can build themselves a competitive advantage. Like Coal wards as an example. Currently are 1000 zen. Normally this is 500k AD. What they NEED to do is drop that do about 600-800 zen but keep the AD price at about 500k AD. Now they have a more competitive advantage over third party sites.
The ZAX is just really inefficient and forces inefficient markets. Why would a player buy AD when they can instead buy Coal wards and sell them for 20-40% more AD? Before when it was Keys it was about 50% more from buying keys and selling those. Players continue to show that the ZAX is a bad idea, the cap is a bad idea, yet instead of fixing the issue, they just play "whack a Mole" and smash the current thing.
Why not just FIX the issues. They can build their own competitive advantage bbut dont. I cant even imagine how many hundreds of thousands Cryptic has lost to third party sites.
Again MICRO is the key.
4) With leadership accounts that make TONS of AD/day its just silly... Its basically became a game of haves versus have nots. Now I could propose not just a "per character" refinement maximum per day, but TRADE that INSTEAD for an account max per day. That may help however players will just create multiple accounts instead. There really is no way to protect against this.
The best thing to do here in all honestly is make MORE professions give AD and make LESS things bind to account. Look at jewel crafting as an example. Those should be sell-able rings. We need more things to boost economy and more options for earning AD, not making the BIS rings unable to be sold....
Against removing the cap, the cap is already too high for my tastes.
The whole power selling in the Zen market has to go, I'd prefer just mainly cosmetic fluff on the Zen market, it's a much more forgiving system and I actually feel like the stuf I buy holds its value.
Instead of short time speculation trading with stuff like RP and enchantments on the AH, the AD whales would start playing the ZAX. That means: Buy much ZEN when the prices are low, sit on it until people eager to buy ZEN escalate the price when there's a dearth, Then sell it at a really high price, and optimally do so until all those offers on the ZAX are served, use all those AD to set up a new bunch of ZEN buy offers at 60% of the old price. Wait for these to get served, hoard ZEN, rinse, repeat.
When doing that speculative trading game on the AH, 10% of the AD price get burnt in the form of auction house fees. When the ZAX is played, this doesn't happen. So, removing the ZAX cap would effectively lead to AD inflation - the total currency circulation would increase - and siphon that all off into the pockets of those who already have tons of AD.
That's why the limit is there, and it's IMHO OK-ish where it is. I'm absolutely against its removal or elevation.
Guys, please read first post in this thread before you comment.
This thread is not about removing the CAP but only increasing it.
The Backlog has rised to 4kk from 2.5kk within last few days. In the same time you can see prices of various enchants reaching double the value. If you open the AH you will find various transcendent enchants for over 15kk (few weeks ago most of them were below 10kk)
This shouldnt happen if players didnt produce more AD than in the past. (unless there's some new AD exploit) most shards are still easy to get from sharandar. Cryptic made RP a lot easier due to dailies and IWD so prices should drop not rise so much. Another double RP event is coming soon and if that doesnt bring down the prices or backlog there's gonna be even more problems, because as it is ZEN lost about ~35-50% value in relation to AD. (price of many items went up in AH, while the value of ZEN is being hold by the cap, which means that you need to buy more of it to get the same thing as you would do in the past)
This will cause players to use ZAX less, because it's better to buy things which are on sale for ZEN (like keys) rather than waste it for exchange which give you a lot less.
TL;DR expect backlog to skyrocket (unless Cryptic themself will throw some ZEN there once in a while or they will increase the cap for exchange)
...they cause the backlog to fall by making AD-purchasable stuff attractive. I predict the backlog will be all but or completely gone on the 26th - 2xRP => increased demand of MoPs => AD needed => Whale _____ injection for AD purchase => ZAX cleared.
The followup move will be another "15% off !!!" or "Get free companion(s) !!!" ZEN sale afterwards, I presume.
Again: It's in Cryptic's interest to have _some_ backlog. Makes people with the sudden itch to scratch more likely to spen RL currency ($$$, €€€,...) instead of in-game currency (AD). And that's what they're after, after all, and in principle this is all nice and OK - the devs don't only want to code, but also things like "food" and "shelter", and occasionally other silly stuff like "clothing" or "haircuts"...
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited June 2015
Raising the Cap will do nothing to solve the issue. Researching basic economics will tell you the same and that all such will do is cause rapid inflation. As soon as the cap is raised, it will be hit and then everything on the Auction House will become more expensive. Then we'll be right back here in another one of these threads where people ask for the cap to be raised again.
Nay - that is not the way to go about this. As others have said, the remedy is to slow down and reduce the amount of incoming AD into the economy as well as possibly even lower the cap. However, lowering the cap while the economy is flooded with AD will not help the issue and will actually just make things worse in different aspects of the economy. The amount of AD in the economy needs to be reduced first before the cap is even considered for adjustment.
We need more Cheap and Repeat AD Sink Purchases. Expensive one-off sinks are only a temporary bandaid of a wound that will not heal. We need many small, cheap and repeat AD sinks that entice people to keep on buying them. Two of these are companion upgrade costs and the other mount upgrade costs, both of which would have a huge benefit to the economy if only their pricing was brought significantly down. Then another thing is to make transmutation more affordable as a repeat purchase.
The problem I am seeing is that the folks dictating the pricing of things think that a larger price tag means a more effective sink, which in fact such is the exact opposite. However, too cheap and it won't work and where we're at now, sinks are too expensive to be effective for the general populace. They need to find the sweet spot in their sink pricings as well as introduce more repeat purchase sinks. Until then, nothing will change no matter how high you place the cap at.
Worse? for who? those that are full F2p? maybe. If Cryptic would increase the cap and price would rise then gold sellers would have to do the same to stay in business. As long as there's no new AD exploits going and they manage to keep the same amount of customers, they would actually run out of AD twice as fast, which means more ZEN in the NW market thus chance for lower prices.
Any legit supporter would only befit from it, because they could get more AD for their $. The game is f2p and you dont have to spend $, Cryptic even gives players some free respec tokens once in a while. It would definitelly be worse for those who're trying to buy half of the ZEN store without contributing single cent.
Worse for everyone, much more worse for the f2p players. See this, current price of coal ward is 550k AD. Currently, the only source of the tradeable ones is from the zen shop (or old chests) priced at 1000 zen. increasing the zax exchange to 1000 AD per zen would increase the AH price to 1100000 AD (sellers tend to increase prices by 10% due to AH tax). That would hurt F2P players more because they need to farm more. If you would suggest they try to gamble on old chests, they would still need to buy enchanted keys priced at 125 each or 1125 for 10 which would go for 125k AD/1.125M AD at the 1000AD per zen price.
Bottom line is that doubling the zax exchange would reduce AD prices. AD farmers (with their limitless AD farms) would just need to double their farming alts and it would be just as if nothing happened. F2P players would need to work twice as hard to get the same results as before. People who buy zen would need to rely more on the money they spend.
In the long run, the AD farmers would be tickled in the start, double their farming troops, and be back to square 1, the zen buyers would be hit hard, the f2p players would be hit worst. and the reason? people wanted to change zax rate to "hurt" AD farmers.
Worse? for who? those that are full F2p? maybe. If Cryptic would increase the cap and price would rise then gold sellers would have to do the same to stay in business. As long as there's no new AD exploits going and they manage to keep the same amount of customers, they would actually run out of AD twice as fast, which means more ZEN in the NW market thus chance for lower prices.
Any legit supporter would only befit from it, because they could get more AD for their $. The game is f2p and you dont have to spend $, Cryptic even gives players some free respec tokens once in a while. It would definitelly be worse for those who're trying to buy half of the ZEN store without contributing single cent.
Worse for everyone, much more worse for the f2p players. See this, current price of coal ward is 550k AD. Currently, the only source of the tradeable ones is from the zen shop (or old chests) priced at 1000 zen. increasing the zax exchange to 1000 AD per zen would increase the AH price to 1100000 AD (sellers tend to increase prices by 10% due to AH tax). That would hurt F2P players more because they need to farm more. If you would suggest they try to gamble on old chests, they would still need to buy enchanted keys priced at 125 each or 1125 for 10 which would go for 125k AD/1.125M AD at the 1000AD per zen price.
Bottom line is that doubling the zax exchange would reduce AD prices. AD farmers (with their limitless AD farms) would just need to double their farming alts and it would be just as if nothing happened. F2P players would need to work twice as hard to get the same results as before. People who buy zen would need to rely more on the money they spend.
In the long run, the AD farmers would be tickled in the start, double their farming troops, and be back to square 1, the zen buyers would be hit hard, the f2p players would be hit worst. and the reason? people wanted to change zax rate to "hurt" AD farmers.
No, not really. Even farmers have some limit on how much AD they can generate and not all f2p are poor. Increasing the CAP will increase the cost of items that come directly from ZEN store, nothing more. Players who spend real $ will also have real alternative to gold sellers which may only help the game.
Increasing the CAP will increase the cost of items that come directly from ZEN store, nothing more. Players who spend real $ will also have real alternative to gold sellers which may only help the game.
I think there's been quite a bit of people who already told you otherwise. There's no shame in not understanding something, but you appear smart enough to understand their reasoning. Being stubborn is one thing. But you're going into extremes here after 5 pages...
Increasing the CAP will increase the cost of items that come directly from ZEN store, nothing more. Players who spend real $ will also have real alternative to gold sellers which may only help the game.
I think there's been quite a bit of people who already told you otherwise. There's no shame in not understanding something, but you appear smart enough to understand their reasoning. Being stubborn is one thing. But you're going into extremes here after 5 pages...
Increasing the CAP will increase the cost of items that come directly from ZEN store, nothing more. Players who spend real $ will also have real alternative to gold sellers which may only help the game.
I think there's been quite a bit of people who already told you otherwise. There's no shame in not understanding something, but you appear smart enough to understand their reasoning. Being stubborn is one thing. But you're going into extremes here after 5 pages...
I've already explained why it wont. Items which dont come from ZEN store are usually farmed in various instances or from quests, etc. You aren't getting more AD in the market by increasing the cap for exchanging (AD simply changes the owner). There's no reason why prices of non-Zen store items would go up due to such change.
It's also important to note that not all Zen store items would get affected. For example coal wards you can get from the invoking boxes and even if they're bound to account, items that are being upgraded with them are not, so you can use characters from multiple accounts to upgrade items and skip whole "bound to account" gate.
No, not really. Even farmers have some limit on how much AD they can generate and not all f2p are poor. Increasing the CAP will increase the cost of items that come directly from ZEN store, nothing more. Players who spend real $ will also have real alternative to gold sellers which may only help the game.
>not all
---It also doesnt mean that all of them are rich enough to buy zen only items.
>Increasing the CAP will increase the cost of items that come directly from ZEN store, nothing more
---When you increase the cost of items that come from the zen store, the players would need more AD to buy them, hence, the players would want more AD for the items they get that's not from the zen store so they can buy items from the zen store.
>Players who spend real $ will also have real alternative to gold sellers which may only help the game
---and that is to spend more $? do you think that they have a limitless $?
also, gold sllers would just increase their AD->RL money exchange rate.
I've already explained why it wont. Items which dont come from ZEN store are usually farmed in various instances or from quests, etc. You aren't getting more AD in the market by increasing the cap for exchanging (AD simply changes the owner). There's no reason why prices of non-Zen store items would go up due to such change.
It's also important to note that not all Zen store items would get affected. For example coal wards you can get from the invoking boxes and even if they're bound to account, items that are being upgraded with them are not, so you can use characters from multiple accounts to upgrade items and skip whole "bound to account" gate.
You've no arguments and just spread nonsense.
>I've already explained why it wont. Items which dont come from ZEN store are usually farmed in various instances or from quests, etc. You aren't getting more AD in the market by increasing the cap for exchanging (AD simply changes the owner). There's no reason why prices of non-Zen store items would go up due to such change.
---When you increase the cost of items that come from the zen store, the players would need more AD to buy them, hence, the players would want more AD for the items they get that's not from the zen store so they can buy items from the zen store.
>It's also important to note that not all Zen store items would get affected. For example coal wards you can get from the invoking boxes and even if they're bound to account, items that are being upgraded with them are not, so you can use characters from multiple accounts to upgrade items and skip whole "bound to account" gate.
---extra toon slots require zen. zen (for f2p players) comes from the zen-ad exchange. need i explain more?
>You've no arguments and just spread nonsense.
---this from the guy who still wont believe after a lot of people countered his argument and no one sided with his yet. Haven't you noticed that maybe, just maybe, you might be a bit wrong?
If you want items from ZEN store you should consider supporting the game and spending few $ once in a while. It's also in Cryptic business model to encourage as many players as possible to spend $. This will make things harder for those who never spend $, but servers and Devs aren't working for free.
Players demanding AD more to exchange it later for ZEN wont increase the prices of non-Zen store items, because amount of AD on the market remain the same, it just changes the owner. Players wont be able to pay more, sellers would've to adapt, else they wouldn't be able to sell anything and even lose some AD from depositing items in the AH.
You dont need extra slots for new characters, because you can use different accounts. This is how it looks like:
Let say, you have 6 accounts and 2 characters on each.
account 1: 0 coal wards from free invoking boxes
account 2: 1 coal ward from free invoking boxes
account 3: 0 coal wards from free invoking boxes
account 4: 2 coal wards from free invoking boxes
account 5: 0 coal wards from free invoking boxes
account 6: 1 coal ward from free invoking boxes
Coal wards from invoking boxes are bound to account, but item which you use for upgrading is NOT, therefore you can just mail it to different account -> upgrade it with the coal ward and then send it back to your main account.
If you want items from ZEN store you should consider supporting the game and spending few $ once in a while. It's also in Cryptic business model to encourage as many players as possible to spend $. This will make things harder for those who never spend $, but servers and Devs aren't working for free.
Players demanding AD more to exchange it later for ZEN wont increase the prices of non-Zen store items, because amount of AD on the market remain the same, it just changes the owner. Players wont be able to pay more, sellers would've to adapt, else they wouldn't be able to sell anything and even lose some AD from depositing items in the AH.
You dont need extra slots for new characters, because you can use different accounts. This is how it looks like:
Let say, you have 6 accounts and 2 characters on each.
account 1: 0 coal wards from free invoking boxes
account 2: 1 coal ward from free invoking boxes
account 3: 0 coal wards from free invoking boxes
account 4: 2 coal wards from free invoking boxes
account 5: 0 coal wards from free invoking boxes
account 6: 1 coal ward from free invoking boxes
Coal wards from invoking boxes are bound to account, but item which you use for upgrading is NOT, therefore you can just mail it to different account -> upgrade it with the coal ward and then send it back to your main account.
1.) what if you need other zen store items like a companion, an epic mount, a retraining token etc.?
2.) mods/devs/etc. correct me if i'm wrong, but wouldn't that be "using or exploiting any bugs, errors, or design flaws to obtain unauthorized access to the Service or to gain an unfair advantage over other players"
>Players demanding AD more to exchange it later for ZEN wont increase the prices of non-Zen store items, because amount of AD on the market remain the same, it just changes the owner. Players wont be able to pay more, sellers would've to adapt, else they wouldn't be able to sell anything and even lose some AD from depositing items in the AH.
--- it WILL change because it's VALUE will decrease no matter the amount of it in the market. it is called price devaluation. the VALUE of the goods won't change, the VALUE OF AD will.
lets say a pebble is worth 500 AD OR 1 zen, a pot is worth 20 zen. hence it could be said that a pot is worth 20 pebbles. if they changed the rate to 1000 AD to 1 zen, a pot is STILL worth 20 pebbles, but since AD got reduced to half its value, 1 pot = 20 pebbles = 20 zen = 20000 AD. the value of goods are still the same when compared to each other. but since AD got reduced by half its value, people would ask for double the value IN AD.
>Players wont be able to pay more, sellers would've to adapt, else they wouldn't be able to sell anything and even lose some AD from depositing items in the AH.
-- buyers lose interest (not earning) AND players lose interest(not being able to buy)>> game dies, gj mate.
You're just speculating. Im sure sellers will react faster than buyers, because they're the ones who will lose AD on deposit.
As it is, ZEN loses it's value every single day in relation towards AD, because every day = more XP on leadership or even accounts being created for leadership armies. This means that more AD is being produced hence players can afford to buy things (including ZEN which causes higher backlog). More AD also means prices going up.
When i was creating this thread ZEN had about 2kk backlog, now it's 4.5kk. Most perfect enchants were at about ~5-5.5kk AD (except negation). Now these cost about 1kk more on average. Prices of Transcendent enchants went up by about 2-5kk. All this while Cryptic did a lot to make these things easier to gain (RP from dailies and promotions related to coal wards, etc)
There's either a lot more AD being produced or new AD exploit.
You're just speculating. Im sure sellers will react faster than buyers, because they're the ones who will lose AD on deposit.
As it is, ZEN loses it's value every single day in relation towards AD, because every day = more XP on leadership or even accounts being created for leadership armies. This means that more AD is being produced hence players can afford to buy things (including ZEN which causes higher backlog). More AD also means prices going up.
When i was creating this thread ZEN had about 2kk backlog, now it's 4.5kk. Most perfect enchants were at about ~5-5.5kk AD (except negation). Now these cost about 1kk more on average. Prices of Transcendent enchants went up by about 2-5kk. All this while Cryptic did a lot to make these things easier to gain (RP from dailies and promotions related to coal wards, etc)
There's either a lot more AD being produced or new AD exploit.
> You're just speculating. Im sure sellers will react faster than buyers, because they're the ones who will lose AD on deposit.
-- Aren't we all? Only, Your arguments are based on things that are being affected by TOTALLY DIFFERENT CAUSES (2X RP event). have you seen prices of other non-RP items change in price? NO. you focus on RP and coal wards ONLY, but the reason their prices are inflating is because of the event. (coal ward prices haven't even inflated).
>As it is, ZEN loses it's value every single day in relation towards AD, because every day = more XP on leadership or even accounts being created for leadership armies. This means that more AD is being produced hence players can afford to buy things (including ZEN which causes higher backlog). More AD also means prices going up.
--zen doesn't lose value. (correct me if i'm wrong) goods from the zen house are still worth the same zen as it was during the start, zen was and still is 100 for 1$ from the start. it was AD that lost it's value. it was worth ~0.003 zen or ~$0.00003 each before, now it is 0.002 zen or $0.00002. AD only lost value, and from what i'm understanding, you wan't it to be half of what it currently is.
Yes, more AD caused prices to go UP, but reducing it's value will only double the current prices.
>When i was creating this thread ZEN had about 2kk backlog, now it's 4.5kk. Most perfect enchants were at about ~5-5.5kk AD (except negation). Now these cost about 1kk more on average. Prices of Transcendent enchants went up by about 2-5kk. All this while Cryptic did a lot to make these things easier to gain (RP from dailies and promotions related to coal wards, etc)
-- , it was announced that there WILL be a 2xRP, if you still haven't noticed it from the past 2xRP events, enchants ALWAYS reach higher prices during or near 2xRPs. pre-mod 6, prices went 2x as much as it was before announcement of event.
THE VAST majority of players (90% probably) are AD poor.. not AD rich. This concept that every player has tons of AD is crazy.. I make a million every ten days now give or take.. I used to make a million every 7 days.. WITH THAT .. I cant even maintain one toon.
A mil every 10 days.. and that's not being rich?
No, it is not. Ever asked yourself a question what you can buy for 1 M. AD ?
Comments
The market distortion is the existence of a cap. At the current moment, the "true market value" of zen in terms of AD-eg what people would be willing to pay for zen-is over 500. And because of the cap, people are aware that buying zen is a profit for its own sake.
That being said, it's certainly possible that were the cap to be removed, the "market price" of zen would be like, 1000 or something, and then each Preservation Ward would cost 10k. But I feel like we won't be able to address those issues until we're actually able to see what the market wants.
It seems like you are looking at this Zen market from an Elitist angle. Not everybody uses Zen only to buy enchantments, RP and Wards. If there are only these kinds of players left, it is almost done. Remember the time when there were a lot more players buying different things like packs, mounts, boosts, etc from the Zen market? Remember what was the Zen/Ad conversion rate? 1 Zen for 350-400 AD, not over 500 AD as some said the cap should be removed. Back then, players had other fun stuffs to buy to make the game fun THEIR WAY, not the RP sellers' way.
if they pumped out some cool detailed armor transmogs that werent just 1 piece as part of a 3000-3500 zen set. I'd totally buy some of those, as it is I use Zen for Keys when a new box comes out, Coal wards (occasionally when my tradebar / invoke coals run out) and the ZAX.
I think increasing the cap too 1000:1 would give it some room. I have a fair few friends who would jump on buying a bit extra zen if the return in AD was doubled for them. the problem is those people who put in a 500 bid then just leave it there afk for ages, because essentially we wouldn't go back below that cap very quickly , as it could sell higher, so ultimately this isnt a great solution
what we REALLY need is a 25-50% increased zen sale, or something of the likes. Get more Zen into the game too combat the inflated exchange and get some of that AD spent / sunk into enchants / other stuff. I personally think that if the game automatically had its own little "stock" of zen that it would pump through the exchange every day, they could decrease the cap massively, but then they'd be losing revenue (same with doing a 50% zen event, lost potential earnings, although a sale like that entices players who usually don't spend money, too spend some money, which might balance it out a little in terms of the actual amount sold.)
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
Look at the backlog first, it is only about 2.5 million Zen. It takes only 2 days for the order to fill. So, there are really not a lot of players buying. Nobody seems to be eager to buy any Zen as there are not really any most sought Zen Market items on sale. Why? Nothing there changes a player's gaming experience more than slightly. Every week it is mount sale, dye sale, fashion sale. If I submit a buy order now, 2 days later, I will get it filled and be ready for next weekend's sale, whatever it is. There is really no urgency for me to pay more AD to buy a Zen.
Players on the buy side of the Zen Exchange tells you they don't have any urgency to buy, so no need to raise the cap. Everybody can wait a couple of days for an order to get filled and still has plenty of time for next week's sale, even if there is something they want to buy.
When the sky is the limit, people will charge the sky.
I'll give an example: Over at Battle of the Immortals, the limit used to be 1m coins per 100 ZEN (you can only buy or sell zen in increments of 100 there). Then the limit went up to 10m coins.
Guess what I hear over there: "Bawww....lower the limit! I can't buy any ZEN now!!" And why is that? Because the going price is a solid 10m coins per 100.
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Yeah , thats why I think increasing the cap wont solve anything but make it more expensive for new players.
Then again I don't buy zen on the Zax, if I have left over zen I usually sell it. So ultimately if they increased it i'd be more happy than sad. haha
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
It would go through the roof, because players are producing more and more AD over time (simply due to leadership lvl upgrades and making more accounts or alts to get even more AD)
Those who abused the bugs in the past would just try to buy as much as possible and re-sell it later during some big sales.
ZEN value can only go up, simply because it's related to real $ and it's in Cryptic business to release new interesting store items, so players will buy more ZEN with $.
That's why removing the limit is very risky. It's better to increase it because it's not only safe but also logical. Since players can produce more AD than in the past, so they can buy more ZEN = higher backlog. If more AD is being produced then cap should also increase to keep the ratio relevant. If they dont increase the cap, at some point there will be so much AD that backlog will also go through the roof.
Basically, prices in AH will go up due to more AD being on the market and exchanging ZEN for AD will be pointless, because you wont be able to do much with the very little AD that you can get from it.
For example, cheapest Perfect Nagation in AH cost ~10k AD atm. that's 20k ZEN and about ~200$ for just one item which is not even BIS and things can only go worse over time if cap stays the same. Now think for a while, how many players will be willing to spend so much $ in a game with so broken economy.
Most players who post it dont take in to consideration that amount of produced AD can only go up, unless:
1. lot's of players stop playing
2. Cryptic will rework leadership to not give AD anymore, but RP instead.
This is absolutely correct. No one is forcing anyone to sell their zen, so if the ad rate seems too low to anyone, simply don't sell your zen. Spend it. I'm sure cryptic will be ok with that.
The somewhat irritating bit is that the people complaining and requesting the change are the people who would be negatively effected and simply can't understand why the limitations are good for them.
They post as if prices remain fixed without understanding prices are dynamic. I mean a few pages ago they argued with me that only the cost of Zen Store items would increase in cost. Bottom line is when AD value drops and the value of the other items does not change then the cost even from other players drops will go up. They have this ridiculous notion that prices of items not tied to the Zen Store will stay exactly as is...
Players don't produce more AD than in the past. They produce much much less. Most of the AD sources were removed. AD can further be removed if there are Zen Store items worthy to buy so players will convert their AD to Zen but the low order tells you they are not buying because there is nothing worthy to buy. Everything is RP, RP, RP since Mod 6.
Don't tell me players produce more RP now so there are more AD. RP is not the same as AD. Price of RP should have been crushed due to the lack of AD. Maybe you run 100 leadership alts and produce mega RP now but if nobody has the AD to buy it, it will be trash. Artificially inflated price doesn't help the economy it only makes it much expensive to buy with the lack of AD.
In the past, players have different things they could buy that helped them to find the game entertaining but not now. It is like buying pack of bubble gum. If it only takes 25 cents to buy a pack, a lot of people will buy it even though nobody will say "Uh oh! I am running out of bubble gum, I need to go to the supermarket and buy it". But if you change the marketing strategy to get a free pack of bubble gem with the purchase of $10,000 worth of grocery and bubble gem is only available through this offer, nobody will buy the bubble gem and the supermarket goes out of business especially when nobody has the $10,000 to buy the grocery.
This game runs on Zen and AD, not RP. It is not how many AD should a Zen worth for the players to buy Zen. It is what else other than the HAMSTER RP they will buy.
Raising or removing the cap of the Zen Exchange does nothing to both the supply of AD and demand of the unwanted RP and other goods. It will only enrich the ones who hoard Zen hoping one day the cap will be raised.
10/char
Hoarding zen hoping the cap will eventually be raised is extremely foolish. It's far more profitable to buy items with that zen and then sell those on the AH (as I described earlier), and then reinvest that as zen. But this only works when there's an arbitrary cap on the price of zen. Otherwise, the market price of zen-purchased items on the AH will fall to the point where it's no longer profitable (again for reasons I described earlier).
Lockboxes and keys have the possibility of allowing zen purchasers to make a profit due to the assumed risk involved. But right now, the artificial price cap in zen just allows players to say "I give these people the ability to not have to wait for their preservation wards, ergo I can make a profit out of that."
Removing the cap causes people to no longer be able to make money on the basis of speculation. Does it make things cost more in terms of AD? You betcha it does. But anyone who's just sitting on a hoard of zen is incompetent as far as someone who's trying to make a profit anyway, because reinvesting and taking advantage of the current price ceiling has a way better rate of return.
If nothing else, the fact that people can buy zen to make a profit without worrying that their zen holdings will go down in value causes people to be more willing to purchase zen. I for one hardly ever purchased zen when it was in the 400 AD range, because I didn't want to expose myself to the risk involved. But when you purchase zen now, you know "oh hey, it's remaining at 500 and has for a year." And you also know "Oh, the time delay gives me that potential for positive returns." So you buy zen. Even if you have nothing to individually use it on. You buy it. And that props up the price of the zen.
Paradoxically, the zen could fall if the cap were removed, simply because speculation isn't possible anymore. That being said? Yeah, there would almost certainly be a period of the zen doubling in price, then people trying to continue making money off of it, and then the price would fall down into the 400s again. It'd be a bursting bubble. Removing the ceiling is essentially deliberately popping the bubble.
I mean, the alternative would just be to make 100% of zen purchases be bind to account. That would work.
If botters can lvl new alts just to spam the chat they can also lvl new alts to farm AD through leadership. AD income weren't removed but changed. I can still reach refiling cap on several characters simply because T1 gear from dungeon is BTA and salvaging each gives me 3-5k.
RP from leadership should be BTA and for artifact gear only, so all those bots who create million accounts wont be able to transfer it.
Ok Ive held off posting, but I think I will do a real quick weigh in.
From a pure economics standpoint there are a few issues with the "pricing" in this game that I see as an issue.
1) A LARGE focus on "MACRO" transactions rather than MICRO transaction are KILLING the potential sales of PWE/Cryptic.
2) Third Party sites offer players a massive massive "advantage" from a price perspective than Cryptic.
3) The ZAX is capped which means if a player wants AD, the MOST they will get is 1M for $20.
4) AD gained through leadership - causes a BIG divide between "old school" players and new players. I literally know a handful of guys that make over 1 million AD a day (YES -1 MIL A DAY) from leadership.
So lets examine these:
1) This is the BIGGEST issue in this game currently. The deviation from micro into full blown macro. There have been TONS of articles written about this and how its a bad model. Just do a quick google search and you will see this.
Just a few examples of Macrotransactions that could have JUST as easily been Micro.
Module Unlocks - 5,000 zen. This is something that could have JUST as easily been 200 zen for a "daily reset" instead. I know a TON of players who would gladly reach in their pockets for several daily resets because they also want to farm the content themselves too but speed it up just a tad. Macro? Bad. Micro - GOOD.
Micro Transactions need to be a MUCH bigger focus in the game. There needs to be only a VERY small % of things to buy that are over $10 range with a MAJORITY of things <$10. That is a micro transaction.
Also, its been proven over and over that people are willing to pay MASSIVELY for cosmetics. This is the BIGGEST area Cryptic isnt even capitalizing on!!! What they need to do are drop "power items" (Items you can buy that make you more powerful) and start focusing on cosmetics. Do you even realize HOW much people would pay for mount dye packs? Or Companion Dye packs?!?
2&3) This is something that has been a problem since day 1 and its sadly avoidable to an extent. Cryptic has MORE than the ability to squash these sites but continues to not.... If a player wants AD, they can go third party and get nearly 3x the amount for the same money. If a player wants zen, its easier to buy AD third party and convert to zen via the ZAX. Heck I wouldnt even be THAT surprised if players from OTHER games who wanted zen find it more economical to buy it third party xfer it through Neverwinter to their account then bring it over to STO for instance. Its just silly.
INSTEAD of an increase on the cap (which I dont think is a bad idea BTW because the cap is FORCING inefficient markets) what honestly needs to happen is Cryptic needs to REMOVE the ZAX and offer TWO prices of EVERYTHING in the zen store: An AD price and a ZEN price.
Then Cryptic themselves can offer a SET "Zen:AD" conversion rate but ONLY for players who HAVE zen and WANT AD. Not the other way around!
Now what Cryptic can do is offer a higher AD price for the zen you purchase. Also in the Zen store they can build themselves a competitive advantage. Like Coal wards as an example. Currently are 1000 zen. Normally this is 500k AD. What they NEED to do is drop that do about 600-800 zen but keep the AD price at about 500k AD. Now they have a more competitive advantage over third party sites.
The ZAX is just really inefficient and forces inefficient markets. Why would a player buy AD when they can instead buy Coal wards and sell them for 20-40% more AD? Before when it was Keys it was about 50% more from buying keys and selling those. Players continue to show that the ZAX is a bad idea, the cap is a bad idea, yet instead of fixing the issue, they just play "whack a Mole" and smash the current thing.
Why not just FIX the issues. They can build their own competitive advantage bbut dont. I cant even imagine how many hundreds of thousands Cryptic has lost to third party sites.
Again MICRO is the key.
4) With leadership accounts that make TONS of AD/day its just silly... Its basically became a game of haves versus have nots. Now I could propose not just a "per character" refinement maximum per day, but TRADE that INSTEAD for an account max per day. That may help however players will just create multiple accounts instead. There really is no way to protect against this.
The best thing to do here in all honestly is make MORE professions give AD and make LESS things bind to account. Look at jewel crafting as an example. Those should be sell-able rings. We need more things to boost economy and more options for earning AD, not making the BIS rings unable to be sold....
The whole power selling in the Zen market has to go, I'd prefer just mainly cosmetic fluff on the Zen market, it's a much more forgiving system and I actually feel like the stuf I buy holds its value.
Instead of short time speculation trading with stuff like RP and enchantments on the AH, the AD whales would start playing the ZAX. That means: Buy much ZEN when the prices are low, sit on it until people eager to buy ZEN escalate the price when there's a dearth, Then sell it at a really high price, and optimally do so until all those offers on the ZAX are served, use all those AD to set up a new bunch of ZEN buy offers at 60% of the old price. Wait for these to get served, hoard ZEN, rinse, repeat.
When doing that speculative trading game on the AH, 10% of the AD price get burnt in the form of auction house fees. When the ZAX is played, this doesn't happen. So, removing the ZAX cap would effectively lead to AD inflation - the total currency circulation would increase - and siphon that all off into the pockets of those who already have tons of AD.
That's why the limit is there, and it's IMHO OK-ish where it is. I'm absolutely against its removal or elevation.
This thread is not about removing the CAP but only increasing it.
The Backlog has rised to 4kk from 2.5kk within last few days. In the same time you can see prices of various enchants reaching double the value. If you open the AH you will find various transcendent enchants for over 15kk (few weeks ago most of them were below 10kk)
This shouldnt happen if players didnt produce more AD than in the past. (unless there's some new AD exploit) most shards are still easy to get from sharandar. Cryptic made RP a lot easier due to dailies and IWD so prices should drop not rise so much. Another double RP event is coming soon and if that doesnt bring down the prices or backlog there's gonna be even more problems, because as it is ZEN lost about ~35-50% value in relation to AD. (price of many items went up in AH, while the value of ZEN is being hold by the cap, which means that you need to buy more of it to get the same thing as you would do in the past)
This will cause players to use ZAX less, because it's better to buy things which are on sale for ZEN (like keys) rather than waste it for exchange which give you a lot less.
TL;DR expect backlog to skyrocket (unless Cryptic themself will throw some ZEN there once in a while or they will increase the cap for exchange)
The followup move will be another "15% off !!!" or "Get free companion(s) !!!" ZEN sale afterwards, I presume.
Again: It's in Cryptic's interest to have _some_ backlog. Makes people with the sudden itch to scratch more likely to spen RL currency ($$$, €€€,...) instead of in-game currency (AD). And that's what they're after, after all, and in principle this is all nice and OK - the devs don't only want to code, but also things like "food" and "shelter", and occasionally other silly stuff like "clothing" or "haircuts"...
Nay - that is not the way to go about this. As others have said, the remedy is to slow down and reduce the amount of incoming AD into the economy as well as possibly even lower the cap. However, lowering the cap while the economy is flooded with AD will not help the issue and will actually just make things worse in different aspects of the economy. The amount of AD in the economy needs to be reduced first before the cap is even considered for adjustment.
We need more Cheap and Repeat AD Sink Purchases. Expensive one-off sinks are only a temporary bandaid of a wound that will not heal. We need many small, cheap and repeat AD sinks that entice people to keep on buying them. Two of these are companion upgrade costs and the other mount upgrade costs, both of which would have a huge benefit to the economy if only their pricing was brought significantly down. Then another thing is to make transmutation more affordable as a repeat purchase.
The problem I am seeing is that the folks dictating the pricing of things think that a larger price tag means a more effective sink, which in fact such is the exact opposite. However, too cheap and it won't work and where we're at now, sinks are too expensive to be effective for the general populace. They need to find the sweet spot in their sink pricings as well as introduce more repeat purchase sinks. Until then, nothing will change no matter how high you place the cap at.
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Worse for everyone, much more worse for the f2p players. See this, current price of coal ward is 550k AD. Currently, the only source of the tradeable ones is from the zen shop (or old chests) priced at 1000 zen. increasing the zax exchange to 1000 AD per zen would increase the AH price to 1100000 AD (sellers tend to increase prices by 10% due to AH tax). That would hurt F2P players more because they need to farm more. If you would suggest they try to gamble on old chests, they would still need to buy enchanted keys priced at 125 each or 1125 for 10 which would go for 125k AD/1.125M AD at the 1000AD per zen price.
Bottom line is that doubling the zax exchange would reduce AD prices. AD farmers (with their limitless AD farms) would just need to double their farming alts and it would be just as if nothing happened. F2P players would need to work twice as hard to get the same results as before. People who buy zen would need to rely more on the money they spend.
In the long run, the AD farmers would be tickled in the start, double their farming troops, and be back to square 1, the zen buyers would be hit hard, the f2p players would be hit worst. and the reason? people wanted to change zax rate to "hurt" AD farmers.
No, not really. Even farmers have some limit on how much AD they can generate and not all f2p are poor. Increasing the CAP will increase the cost of items that come directly from ZEN store, nothing more. Players who spend real $ will also have real alternative to gold sellers which may only help the game.
I've already explained why it wont. Items which dont come from ZEN store are usually farmed in various instances or from quests, etc. You aren't getting more AD in the market by increasing the cap for exchanging (AD simply changes the owner). There's no reason why prices of non-Zen store items would go up due to such change.
It's also important to note that not all Zen store items would get affected. For example coal wards you can get from the invoking boxes and even if they're bound to account, items that are being upgraded with them are not, so you can use characters from multiple accounts to upgrade items and skip whole "bound to account" gate.
You've no arguments and just spread nonsense.
>not all
---It also doesnt mean that all of them are rich enough to buy zen only items.
>Increasing the CAP will increase the cost of items that come directly from ZEN store, nothing more
---When you increase the cost of items that come from the zen store, the players would need more AD to buy them, hence, the players would want more AD for the items they get that's not from the zen store so they can buy items from the zen store.
>Players who spend real $ will also have real alternative to gold sellers which may only help the game
---and that is to spend more $? do you think that they have a limitless $?
also, gold sllers would just increase their AD->RL money exchange rate.
>I've already explained why it wont. Items which dont come from ZEN store are usually farmed in various instances or from quests, etc. You aren't getting more AD in the market by increasing the cap for exchanging (AD simply changes the owner). There's no reason why prices of non-Zen store items would go up due to such change.
---When you increase the cost of items that come from the zen store, the players would need more AD to buy them, hence, the players would want more AD for the items they get that's not from the zen store so they can buy items from the zen store.
>It's also important to note that not all Zen store items would get affected. For example coal wards you can get from the invoking boxes and even if they're bound to account, items that are being upgraded with them are not, so you can use characters from multiple accounts to upgrade items and skip whole "bound to account" gate.
---extra toon slots require zen. zen (for f2p players) comes from the zen-ad exchange. need i explain more?
>You've no arguments and just spread nonsense.
---this from the guy who still wont believe after a lot of people countered his argument and no one sided with his yet. Haven't you noticed that maybe, just maybe, you might be a bit wrong?
Players demanding AD more to exchange it later for ZEN wont increase the prices of non-Zen store items, because amount of AD on the market remain the same, it just changes the owner. Players wont be able to pay more, sellers would've to adapt, else they wouldn't be able to sell anything and even lose some AD from depositing items in the AH.
You dont need extra slots for new characters, because you can use different accounts. This is how it looks like:
Let say, you have 6 accounts and 2 characters on each.
account 1: 0 coal wards from free invoking boxes
account 2: 1 coal ward from free invoking boxes
account 3: 0 coal wards from free invoking boxes
account 4: 2 coal wards from free invoking boxes
account 5: 0 coal wards from free invoking boxes
account 6: 1 coal ward from free invoking boxes
Coal wards from invoking boxes are bound to account, but item which you use for upgrading is NOT, therefore you can just mail it to different account -> upgrade it with the coal ward and then send it back to your main account.
1.) what if you need other zen store items like a companion, an epic mount, a retraining token etc.?
2.) mods/devs/etc. correct me if i'm wrong, but wouldn't that be "using or exploiting any bugs, errors, or design flaws to obtain unauthorized access to the Service or to gain an unfair advantage over other players"
>Players demanding AD more to exchange it later for ZEN wont increase the prices of non-Zen store items, because amount of AD on the market remain the same, it just changes the owner. Players wont be able to pay more, sellers would've to adapt, else they wouldn't be able to sell anything and even lose some AD from depositing items in the AH.
--- it WILL change because it's VALUE will decrease no matter the amount of it in the market. it is called price devaluation. the VALUE of the goods won't change, the VALUE OF AD will.
lets say a pebble is worth 500 AD OR 1 zen, a pot is worth 20 zen. hence it could be said that a pot is worth 20 pebbles. if they changed the rate to 1000 AD to 1 zen, a pot is STILL worth 20 pebbles, but since AD got reduced to half its value, 1 pot = 20 pebbles = 20 zen = 20000 AD. the value of goods are still the same when compared to each other. but since AD got reduced by half its value, people would ask for double the value IN AD.
>Players wont be able to pay more, sellers would've to adapt, else they wouldn't be able to sell anything and even lose some AD from depositing items in the AH.
-- buyers lose interest (not earning) AND players lose interest(not being able to buy)>> game dies, gj mate.
As it is, ZEN loses it's value every single day in relation towards AD, because every day = more XP on leadership or even accounts being created for leadership armies. This means that more AD is being produced hence players can afford to buy things (including ZEN which causes higher backlog). More AD also means prices going up.
When i was creating this thread ZEN had about 2kk backlog, now it's 4.5kk. Most perfect enchants were at about ~5-5.5kk AD (except negation). Now these cost about 1kk more on average. Prices of Transcendent enchants went up by about 2-5kk. All this while Cryptic did a lot to make these things easier to gain (RP from dailies and promotions related to coal wards, etc)
There's either a lot more AD being produced or new AD exploit.
> You're just speculating. Im sure sellers will react faster than buyers, because they're the ones who will lose AD on deposit.
-- Aren't we all? Only, Your arguments are based on things that are being affected by TOTALLY DIFFERENT CAUSES (2X RP event). have you seen prices of other non-RP items change in price? NO. you focus on RP and coal wards ONLY, but the reason their prices are inflating is because of the event. (coal ward prices haven't even inflated).
>As it is, ZEN loses it's value every single day in relation towards AD, because every day = more XP on leadership or even accounts being created for leadership armies. This means that more AD is being produced hence players can afford to buy things (including ZEN which causes higher backlog). More AD also means prices going up.
--zen doesn't lose value. (correct me if i'm wrong) goods from the zen house are still worth the same zen as it was during the start, zen was and still is 100 for 1$ from the start. it was AD that lost it's value. it was worth ~0.003 zen or ~$0.00003 each before, now it is 0.002 zen or $0.00002. AD only lost value, and from what i'm understanding, you wan't it to be half of what it currently is.
Yes, more AD caused prices to go UP, but reducing it's value will only double the current prices.
>When i was creating this thread ZEN had about 2kk backlog, now it's 4.5kk. Most perfect enchants were at about ~5-5.5kk AD (except negation). Now these cost about 1kk more on average. Prices of Transcendent enchants went up by about 2-5kk. All this while Cryptic did a lot to make these things easier to gain (RP from dailies and promotions related to coal wards, etc)
-- , it was announced that there WILL be a 2xRP, if you still haven't noticed it from the past 2xRP events, enchants ALWAYS reach higher prices during or near 2xRPs. pre-mod 6, prices went 2x as much as it was before announcement of event.
— (The unwritten rule)