I was being blunt, but that wasn't intended as a troll post.
PWE has no reason to sell you real money Zen for your imaginary pixel money AD. If other players are willing to do so after paying them real money for the Zen, it's no skin off their noses, but it's not in their interest to just give Zen away, which is what you're suggesting they should do.
Exactly right. By the time zen shows up on the Zax, they've already got their money.
Not at all. There should be a way for new players who grind AD to purchase Zen store items without waiting for whales to sell their Zen stockpiles.
There is. Raising the limit won't change anything other than requiring these new players grind out double, triple, an order of magintude? more AD to by zen with. Would you rather wait a few days for zen like you do now, or would you rather spend those few days grinding AD so you can buy zen with it when you manage to earn it? How long would it take a new player to grind out enough AD to buy 1000 zen when the price is 1000AD per zen? 5000? where would the limit be, because that's what the price will be pegged at. Like Ambi said, it might stabilize at some very high number... what? 1800? who knows, but certainly not 501. Nope, raising the limit would be a disaster.
There is. Raising the limit won't change anything other than requiring these new players grind out double, triple, an order of magintude? more AD to by zen with. Would you rather wait a few days for zen like you do now, or would you rather spend those few days grinding AD so you can buy zen with it when you manage to earn it? How long would it take a new player to grind out enough AD to buy 1000 zen when the price is 1000AD per zen? 5000? where would the limit be, because that's what the price will be pegged at. Like Ambi said, it might stabilize at some very high number... what? 1800? who knows, but certainly not 501. Nope, raising the limit would be a disaster.
They want players to actually buy ZEN with $ not AD. The option to trade AD for ZEN is there just to reduce the gap between those who can spend more $ and those who can spend less or just refuse to spend any $. Though imo everyone should support the game they play with at least 5$ per months. That's quite easy to save.
The amount of players that will want to buy ZEN for real $ is often based on how much they can get for it in the game.
They want players to actually buy ZEN with $ not AD. The option to trade AD for ZEN is there just to reduce the gap between those who can spend more $ and those who can spend less or just refuse to spend any $. Though imo everyone should support the game they play with at least 5$ per months. That's quite easy to save.
The amount of players that will want to buy ZEN for real $ is often based on how much they can get for it in the game.
the main reason people spend money on zen is to 1 buy a new mount or 2 buy lockbox keys and try to get items from them. tell me im wrong go ahead but then look in pe and tell me how many people are using a item that came from a lockbox and not from transferring it to ad .
the main reason people spend money on zen is to 1 buy a new mount or 2 buy lockbox keys and try to get items from them. tell me im wrong go ahead but then look in pe and tell me how many people are using a item that came from a lockbox and not from transferring it to ad .
The 3rd reason is they want AD.
How do you get (say) rank 10 enchantment? a) buy it from AH using AD, b) make it your own.
If you make it your own, how do you get GMoP? a) wait for a drop, b) buy it from in game store using AD, c) buy it from AH (usually a bad deal) using AD. These need AD.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
I meant raise the amount you can refine per day, not how much AD that Zen costs. That is a whole other issue. The Zen exchange should not have a cap, if the excuse for not raising refinement is capitalism, then why have a cap? A cap is Socialism in a way.
It's market regulation - socialism would be giving everyone an AD stipend and not allowing any way to earn your own AD in game. The refinement limit is there to keep the supply side of the S&D equation under control. Removing either limit, or raising the limits, would result is a further devaluation of AD as a currency and cause the price of things to increase even more. The current backlog is caused by a high demand for Zen and a low supply of it. We might see a small easing as more people buy zen to take advantage of the higher price, but that will only last so long and the flood of liquidity (AD) will drive prices even higher. The system is find as is - we have way bigger fish to fry than the ZAX and refinement limits. We cannot unregulate our way out of the the current economic problem.
It's market regulation - socialism would be giving everyone an AD stipend and not allowing any way to earn your own AD in game. The refinement limit is there to keep the supply side of the S&D equation under control. Removing either limit, or raising the limits, would result is a further devaluation of AD as a currency and cause the price of things to increase even more. The current backlog is caused by a high demand for Zen and a low supply of it. We might see a small easing as more people buy zen to take advantage of the higher price, but that will only last so long and the flood of liquidity (AD) will drive prices even higher. The system is find as is - we have way bigger fish to fry than the ZAX and refinement limits. We cannot unregulate our way out of the the current economic problem.
You're wrong. The high backlog is caused by low price. Lower price = more Zen they can buy = higher backlog.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited June 2015
So? Raise it and the same quantity of AD gets dumped into Zen orders, except that it takes more AD to fill an order, putting players with less AD at a disadvantage.
This has nothing to do with capitalism or socialism. This is just a currency control.
Actually it does, it is just most that throw around such terminology have no comprehension of the true meanings of the economic theories. The average person tends to use socialist or communist just to describe economic regulations they don't like regardless of whether it is relevant or not. And that's as political as that topic can go.
Capitalism has found over the years laissez faire doesn't work. Some regulations are required.
This is one of them.
As I explained before this is not a balanced system. Zen IS worth more than AD because Cryptic did not attempt to add reasons to consistently want both.
As such no limit will result in AD consistently rising not to a point of equilibrium but well into the realm of "it is not worth my time to even bother." The system will not work without this limit and any changes would directly decrease the value of AD as AD value is maintained by the value of Zen even if the true value of Zen is above 500 AD.
As detailed earlier decreasing the value of AD increased the amount of AD needed to purchase items. This suggestion can only do one thing: hurt everybody.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!" pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all." looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
So? Raise it and the same quantity of AD gets dumped into Zen orders, except that it takes more AD to fill an order, putting players with less AD at a disadvantage.
Not necessary. If other players can buy less AD due to higher price, you might get your faster but lower amount. The purpose is that those who will buy ZEN with real $ will need AD for something that it will remove it from the market.
Zen is only put in to the system because players are willing to buy Zen to then trade for other player's AD.
Kvet had sound logic. You didn't make any sense at all.
My answer was related to the existence of backlog not whether there's a ZEN or not. Also as i've mentioned earlier, Cryptic may actually help lower the backlog to keep players happy, because i doubt there's so many naive (or rich) players to trade their ZEN with current ratio.
0
plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,421Arc User
My answer was related to the existence of backlog not whether there's a ZEN or not. Also as i've mentioned earlier, Cryptic may actually help lower the backlog to keep players happy, because i doubt there's so many naive (or rich) players to trade their ZEN with current ratio.
Xbox one has even lower ratio. People are buying Zen over there. 200:1 is "high" for them.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
0
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
My answer was related to the existence of backlog not whether there's a ZEN or not. Also as i've mentioned earlier, Cryptic may actually help lower the backlog to keep players happy, because i doubt there's so many naive (or rich) players to trade their ZEN with current ratio.
The backlog is caused because there are more reasons to want Zen than AD.
There's no reason the backlog couldn't be eliminated today. All it would require is to make AD more desirable and Zen less desirable by changing what is bought with Zen and what is bought with AD.
Will Cryptic do that? No. But that is the real solution to the problem.
Raising the AD cap is like putting a bandaid on a sliced artery. It will slow the bleeding for a moment until the bandaid gets saturated. Then we'll be back to "raise the cap pl0x," with the only difference being a large increase in "I can't afford to buy good items!" threads.
There's no reason the backlog couldn't be eliminated today. All it would require is to make AD more desirable and Zen less desirable by changing what is bought with Zen and what is bought with AD.
Which happens every 2xRP event, as people yank their Zen purchase orders to buy refining items, some of which gets moved around on the AH and likely ends up back in the ZAX eventually and some of which is removed from the economy completely with GMoPs.
Xbox one has even lower ratio. People are buying Zen over there. 200:1 is "high" for them.
That's because it's fresh game for them and they didnt had as much time to build all the leadership army yet. Not to mention they probably didnt had any big AD exploits.
My point is that higher cap for the AD - ZEN exchange will remove the backlog, because the demand for ZEN will always be higher due to business model. 50$ is worth like 2.5kk AD in this game, which is really a small amount if you look at the prices in AH or even mount / companion upgrade. While for 50$ you could actully get a newest top game on the market.
When you realize it, you may understand that NWO may have a problem getting new suppoterts, because:
- exchange ratio is just way too low (players may actually get several new games for the same price which would allow them to get good gear in NWO 8x r10 + 2 good perfect enchants will cost around 20kk AD which is ~400$ and that's far from BIS, because they may need some bank slots, races unlock, rank 3 mount, companions, account slots and so on)
- economy is broken by AD exploits (gl convincing new players to spend more real $ so they can catch those who got billions of AD for free and didnt get banned lol)
- bugs take ages to fix.
- Mod6 changes were a big hit for all the casual and new players. (which are often the biggest supporters who want to relax after a day of work)
As stated before, it was caused by AD entering the system that shouldn't
No it is because there's no reason to want to spend AD. Literally.
As Becky said it reverses every single 2xRP weekend.
The problem is that people have far more reasons to want Zen than to want AD on a daily basis. Economics are not a one way street. There are always two ways to change something.
It doesn't matter how much AD enters the system. There are infinite numbers of items and services they could add which cause players to spend AD which would increase the Value of AD. If enough reasons to want and spend AD are added it does not matter how much AD enters the system because eventually it will be valuable enough to be below the 500:1 threshold.
This is not a hard concept.
Let's try the one more way. The problem is that AD is not worth enough. That is directly what sitting at the 500:1 AD:Zen mark means. Proposing this solution is akin to saying "Zen is not worth enough." And that is simply not true.
Well said. People keep bringing this up, but raising the cap would ruin the economy and everyone who has the slightest idea of how an economy works knows this. Of course, most people asking for this probably don't care about the economy. They just wanna reach the character's AD cap. Pretty silly if you ask me.
So? Raise it and the same quantity of AD gets dumped into Zen orders, except that it takes more AD to fill an order, putting players with less AD at a disadvantage.
Also the people havng tons of ZEN will rub their hands, not sell ZEN until the new cap is reached, and shamelessly profit. And be the only ones apart from new ZEN buyers. And the backlog will build again to the same levels we see now, maybe a wee slower.
No it is because there's no reason to want to spend AD. Literally.
As Becky said it reverses every single 2xRP weekend.
The problem is that people have far more reasons to want Zen than to want AD on a daily basis. Economics are not a one way street. There are always two ways to change something.
It doesn't matter how much AD enters the system. There are infinite numbers of items and services they could add which cause players to spend AD which would increase the Value of AD. If enough reasons to want and spend AD are added it does not matter how much AD enters the system because eventually it will be valuable enough to be below the 500:1 threshold.
This is not a hard concept.
Let's try the one more way. The problem is that AD is not worth enough. That is directly what sitting at the 500:1 AD:Zen mark means. Proposing this solution is akin to saying "Zen is not worth enough." And that is simply not true.
I disagree. It matter a lot how much AD enters the system, because you could just buy all the rare items and create even higher backlog given enough AD. Then you dictate the prices and put new or casual players in situation where they feel like it's impossible to gather enough AD for them, because all decent items cost at least several millions of AD.
They either create a sink for AD which doesnt affect new players (aka pure cosmetic and visual changes like unique dyes, armor design and so on)
or they allow new players to get AD from old players with better exchange ratio. (though it will only affect mostly those who will support the game with $)
0
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
I disagree. It matter a lot how much AD enters the system, because you could just buy all the rare items and create even higher backlog given enough AD. Then you dictate the prices and put new or casual players in situation where they feel like it's impossible to gather enough AD for them, because all decent items cost at least several millions of AD.
When AD value rises the Amount of AD to purchase items drops.
What this thread suggests would lower AD value which would cause the Amount of AD to purchase items to rise.
As I originally said item values are not going to change because currency value changes. When currency values decrease then the amount required to purchase the same item will increase and vice versa.
When AD value rises the Amount of AD to purchase items drops.
What this thread suggests would lower AD value which would cause the Amount of AD to purchase items to rise.
As I originally said item values are not going to change because currency value changes. When currency values decrease then the amount required to purchase the same item will increase and vice versa.
Economics 101.
Sure the value of AD would drop but only when compared to Zen or items re-sold from ZEN store. All the old items would still cost the same amount of AD, because most of the players already have them or these are very weak items which nobody want to invest AD in to.
There would actually be less AD on market (assuming those who buy the AD for ZEN would spent it on gmops, mount training or AH) so there's no point why people would suddenly start selling their items for more AD, since other players wouldnt be able to afford it = they cant sell it and price drop over time.
The only situation where price of items would rise is when there's something new or huge demand, but this can happen ever now.
Comments
Exactly right. By the time zen shows up on the Zax, they've already got their money.
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance
There is. Raising the limit won't change anything other than requiring these new players grind out double, triple, an order of magintude? more AD to by zen with. Would you rather wait a few days for zen like you do now, or would you rather spend those few days grinding AD so you can buy zen with it when you manage to earn it? How long would it take a new player to grind out enough AD to buy 1000 zen when the price is 1000AD per zen? 5000? where would the limit be, because that's what the price will be pegged at. Like Ambi said, it might stabilize at some very high number... what? 1800? who knows, but certainly not 501. Nope, raising the limit would be a disaster.
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance
They want players to actually buy ZEN with $ not AD. The option to trade AD for ZEN is there just to reduce the gap between those who can spend more $ and those who can spend less or just refuse to spend any $. Though imo everyone should support the game they play with at least 5$ per months. That's quite easy to save.
The amount of players that will want to buy ZEN for real $ is often based on how much they can get for it in the game.
The 3rd reason is they want AD.
How do you get (say) rank 10 enchantment? a) buy it from AH using AD, b) make it your own.
If you make it your own, how do you get GMoP? a) wait for a drop, b) buy it from in game store using AD, c) buy it from AH (usually a bad deal) using AD. These need AD.
It's market regulation - socialism would be giving everyone an AD stipend and not allowing any way to earn your own AD in game. The refinement limit is there to keep the supply side of the S&D equation under control. Removing either limit, or raising the limits, would result is a further devaluation of AD as a currency and cause the price of things to increase even more. The current backlog is caused by a high demand for Zen and a low supply of it. We might see a small easing as more people buy zen to take advantage of the higher price, but that will only last so long and the flood of liquidity (AD) will drive prices even higher. The system is find as is - we have way bigger fish to fry than the ZAX and refinement limits. We cannot unregulate our way out of the the current economic problem.
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance
You're wrong. The high backlog is caused by low price. Lower price = more Zen they can buy = higher backlog.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Actually it does, it is just most that throw around such terminology have no comprehension of the true meanings of the economic theories. The average person tends to use socialist or communist just to describe economic regulations they don't like regardless of whether it is relevant or not. And that's as political as that topic can go.
Capitalism has found over the years laissez faire doesn't work. Some regulations are required.
This is one of them.
As I explained before this is not a balanced system. Zen IS worth more than AD because Cryptic did not attempt to add reasons to consistently want both.
As such no limit will result in AD consistently rising not to a point of equilibrium but well into the realm of "it is not worth my time to even bother." The system will not work without this limit and any changes would directly decrease the value of AD as AD value is maintained by the value of Zen even if the true value of Zen is above 500 AD.
As detailed earlier decreasing the value of AD increased the amount of AD needed to purchase items. This suggestion can only do one thing: hurt everybody.
Now you're just not making sense.
Zen is only put in to the system because players are willing to buy Zen to then trade for other player's AD.
Kvet had sound logic. You didn't make any sense at all.
Make the spinning stop, mommy! Make it stop!
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
Not necessary. If other players can buy less AD due to higher price, you might get your faster but lower amount. The purpose is that those who will buy ZEN with real $ will need AD for something that it will remove it from the market.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
My answer was related to the existence of backlog not whether there's a ZEN or not. Also as i've mentioned earlier, Cryptic may actually help lower the backlog to keep players happy, because i doubt there's so many naive (or rich) players to trade their ZEN with current ratio.
Xbox one has even lower ratio. People are buying Zen over there. 200:1 is "high" for them.
The backlog is caused because there are more reasons to want Zen than AD.
There's no reason the backlog couldn't be eliminated today. All it would require is to make AD more desirable and Zen less desirable by changing what is bought with Zen and what is bought with AD.
Will Cryptic do that? No. But that is the real solution to the problem.
Raising the AD cap is like putting a bandaid on a sliced artery. It will slow the bleeding for a moment until the bandaid gets saturated. Then we'll be back to "raise the cap pl0x," with the only difference being a large increase in "I can't afford to buy good items!" threads.
Which happens every 2xRP event, as people yank their Zen purchase orders to buy refining items, some of which gets moved around on the AH and likely ends up back in the ZAX eventually and some of which is removed from the economy completely with GMoPs.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
That's because it's fresh game for them and they didnt had as much time to build all the leadership army yet. Not to mention they probably didnt had any big AD exploits.
My point is that higher cap for the AD - ZEN exchange will remove the backlog, because the demand for ZEN will always be higher due to business model. 50$ is worth like 2.5kk AD in this game, which is really a small amount if you look at the prices in AH or even mount / companion upgrade. While for 50$ you could actully get a newest top game on the market.
When you realize it, you may understand that NWO may have a problem getting new suppoterts, because:
- exchange ratio is just way too low (players may actually get several new games for the same price which would allow them to get good gear in NWO 8x r10 + 2 good perfect enchants will cost around 20kk AD which is ~400$ and that's far from BIS, because they may need some bank slots, races unlock, rank 3 mount, companions, account slots and so on)
- economy is broken by AD exploits (gl convincing new players to spend more real $ so they can catch those who got billions of AD for free and didnt get banned lol)
- bugs take ages to fix.
- Mod6 changes were a big hit for all the casual and new players. (which are often the biggest supporters who want to relax after a day of work)
No it is because there's no reason to want to spend AD. Literally.
As Becky said it reverses every single 2xRP weekend.
The problem is that people have far more reasons to want Zen than to want AD on a daily basis. Economics are not a one way street. There are always two ways to change something.
It doesn't matter how much AD enters the system. There are infinite numbers of items and services they could add which cause players to spend AD which would increase the Value of AD. If enough reasons to want and spend AD are added it does not matter how much AD enters the system because eventually it will be valuable enough to be below the 500:1 threshold.
This is not a hard concept.
Let's try the one more way. The problem is that AD is not worth enough. That is directly what sitting at the 500:1 AD:Zen mark means. Proposing this solution is akin to saying "Zen is not worth enough." And that is simply not true.
Also the people havng tons of ZEN will rub their hands, not sell ZEN until the new cap is reached, and shamelessly profit. And be the only ones apart from new ZEN buyers. And the backlog will build again to the same levels we see now, maybe a wee slower.
I disagree. It matter a lot how much AD enters the system, because you could just buy all the rare items and create even higher backlog given enough AD. Then you dictate the prices and put new or casual players in situation where they feel like it's impossible to gather enough AD for them, because all decent items cost at least several millions of AD.
They either create a sink for AD which doesnt affect new players (aka pure cosmetic and visual changes like unique dyes, armor design and so on)
or they allow new players to get AD from old players with better exchange ratio. (though it will only affect mostly those who will support the game with $)
When AD value rises the Amount of AD to purchase items drops.
What this thread suggests would lower AD value which would cause the Amount of AD to purchase items to rise.
As I originally said item values are not going to change because currency value changes. When currency values decrease then the amount required to purchase the same item will increase and vice versa.
Economics 101.
Sure the value of AD would drop but only when compared to Zen or items re-sold from ZEN store. All the old items would still cost the same amount of AD, because most of the players already have them or these are very weak items which nobody want to invest AD in to.
There would actually be less AD on market (assuming those who buy the AD for ZEN would spent it on gmops, mount training or AH) so there's no point why people would suddenly start selling their items for more AD, since other players wouldnt be able to afford it = they cant sell it and price drop over time.
The only situation where price of items would rise is when there's something new or huge demand, but this can happen ever now.