TRs spamming dodges also serves the function of replenishing stealth, because of Twilight Adept recharging 10% of their stealth each time they dodge.
The actual effect isn't as large as you might think unless it's an Executioner Capstone + rank4 Tenacious Concealment, in which case while out of stealth the stealth meter recharges at +35% the normal speed with no 'stealth damage' and no 'stealth meter regen pause.' It's in this particular case that every dodge makes a quite large difference in terms of aiding with restealthing.
AFAIK most Sabos don't even slot TenCon in the first place because they already have it plenty easy to manage stealth, so they usually go for more useful utilities... in this case most of the stealth meter gained by Twilight Adept is just as easily spent by even small enemy attacks. OTOH, for Executioners, that's the new path of survival I've discovered as a non-Sabo WK.
Then you should not need to play broken builds. Just sayin'...
What, so you want me to come in here (all sore loser like) complaining how the other classes are broken too, because I'm supposed to be so noble and dignified I'm above fighting fire with fire? I'm not. Or perhaps I should become one of those delusional "Oh leave TR alone, its not OP" cast. Well, boo hoo. And let's not forget the other crew, "Yeah let's nerf ITC I'm WK," whom had a slight bias of being long-standing MI rivals.
Suuuure, let me just do that. On second thought, never. I know this path is broken. At least I'm transparent about it, which is more than I can say for everyone else's predominant double standards with regards to their own class.
What, so you want me to come in here (all sore loser like) complaining how the other classes are broken too, because I'm supposed to be so noble and dignified I'm above fighting fire with fire? I'm not. Or perhaps I should become one of those delusional "Oh leave TR alone, its not OP" cast. Well, boo hoo. And let's not forget the other crew, "Yeah let's nerf ITC I'm WK," whom had a slight bias of being long-standing MI rivals.
Suuuure, let me just do that. On second thought, never. I know this path is broken. At least I'm transparent about it, which is more than I can say for everyone else's predominant double standards with regards to their own class.
After so many pages people still missing the point. Dmg proc from SO should be based on how far the target is from TR. Most encounters needs a dps buff so you can actually play this class as melee instead of being forced to throw daggers. There's no reason why CW should be able to do more dmg (and more often) with ranged nukes than TR with the melee encounters.
There are also some prooly designed feast which boost crit dmg and so on for "X"s when a target dies in a range of "X". If these things get in effect with other buffs you can get pretty big boost, but if they dont you get nothing which often lead to UP and OP situations.
lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
edited May 2015
There's a reason why the dev's originally put a 7 charge limit on cloud of steel. No idea why they removed it. Also, they should remove or rework concussive strike.
There's a reason why the dev's originally put a 7 charge limit on cloud of steel. No idea why they removed it. Also, they should remove or rework concussive strike.
Originally they put 12 charges on CoS and nerfed it down to 8.
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There's a reason why the dev's originally put a 7 charge limit on cloud of steel. No idea why they removed it.
As mac said, the limitation in the charges disappeared at the price of slower (MUCH slower) activation speed. When there were 8 charges the speed of the thrown daggers were literally blindingly fast. That gave it a limited use in PvP as a burst tool, but seriously hindered its use in PvE. The fix was more of PvE-oriented as they cut down on the activation speed for like 30% (which means direct -30% in DPS), but gave it unlimited use so a steady stream of damage can be secured.
Ironically, around the time the change was made most TR players were screaming about how it was a big nerf in PvP, with only a few others including myself correctly saw that it was in the long-term, a buff. The bursty nature of CoS was lowered, but as compensation it could be used more freely as a tactical tool.
Also, they should remove or rework concussive strike.
...and you should read the patch notes when a new mod comes into place. Scoundrels are dead and extinct. Blind rage from the masses killed it, and instead, now you have to deal with every Scoundrel player simply moving over to the Sabo, which was always the worst threat to anyone in PvP.
As mac said, the limitation in the charges disappeared at the price of slower (MUCH slower) activation speed. When there were 8 charges the speed of the thrown daggers were literally blindingly fast. That gave it a limited use in PvP as a burst tool, but seriously hindered its use in PvE. The fix was more of PvE-oriented as they cut down on the activation speed for like 30% (which means direct -30% in DPS), but gave it unlimited use so a steady stream of damage can be secured.
Ironically, around the time the change was made most TR players were screaming about how it was a big nerf in PvP, with only a few others including myself correctly saw that it was in the long-term, a buff. The bursty nature of CoS was lowered, but as compensation it could be used more freely as a tactical tool.
...and you should read the patch notes when a new mod comes into place. Scoundrels are dead and extinct. Blind rage from the masses killed it, and instead, now you have to deal with every Scoundrel player simply moving over to the Sabo, which was always the worst threat to anyone in PvP.
scoundrels arent dead at all i still see them from time to time doing really well with mediocre gear.
i seriusly wanna l2p to fight TR
so can some premade TR pass down their wisdom about how to counter TR?
with 2s reveal no longer exists
how you fight a class that either in stealth mode,ITC(cc imune+100% deflect chage with 75% deflc sev)mode,roll dodge time frame, or us being dazed by smokebomb,bloodbath mode?
i need something solid that can be pull off not some HAMSTER try to catch them by luck with predict their movement and use dobly 4.0 sound, or about TR VS TR
i am all ears here please..
if TR is not OP and counterable sure you can explain how right?
I didn't say it was easy or fair, but they know how to counter them. Premades are typically near or in the ballpark of BiS so your opponent TR isn't out-gearing you by much. It makes a huge difference.
Yes, premades know how to figt vs TR- you must send 2 vs 1 to have a chance to kill TR. Please stop talking these all nonsense becouse it isn't even funny anymore.
There is only 1 character who have chance against TR- it's Paladin
I didn't say it was easy or fair, but they know how to counter them. Premades are typically near or in the ballpark of BiS so your opponent TR isn't out-gearing you by much. It makes a huge difference.
about gear.. i am 3.5k ilv HR and being kitting for 2minutes and died by TR in 1 on 1 node fight.. pretty much that TR is undergear for not able to kill HR in 2 minutes
sorry i am looking for premade TR for wisdom.. not someone who say "I didn't say it was easy or fair" yet still defending TR is not OP with 2s reveal no longer exists
i seriusly wanna l2p to fight TR
so can some premade TR pass down their wisdom about how to counter TR?
with 2s reveal no longer exists
how you fight a class that either in stealth mode,ITC(cc imune+100% deflect chage with 75% deflc sev)mode,roll dodge time frame, or us being dazed by smokebomb,bloodbath mode?
i need something solid that can be pull off not some HAMSTER try to catch them by luck with predict their movement and use dobly 4.0 sound
i am all ears here please..
if TR is not OP and counterable sure you can explain how right?
Yes, premades know how to figt vs TR- you must send 2 vs 1 to have a chance to kill TR. Please stop talking these all nonsense becouse it isn't even funny anymore.
There is only 1 character who have chance against TR- it's Paladin
so need 2 vs 1 to have a chance to kill TR. yet some of this forum still defending that TR is not OP?
personaly right now i think TR is OP too.. looking for some wisdom that maybe can change my mind here
Are we playing the same game? WK does get killed a lot but a skilled BiS MI TR? No F*cking way. Just name me one good PvP player who isn't a TR/OP that thinks "TRs are very killable 1vs1".
I play a BiS DC and no, it doesn't take a well played CW to kill a DC. I could show you a video of me getting hit for 50k IK followed by a 40k Disintegrate when I'm inside my empowered Astral Shield.
Are we playing the same game? WK does get killed a lot but a skilled BiS MI TR? No F*cking way. Just name me one good PvP player who isn't a TR/OP that thinks "TRs are very killable 1vs1".
I play a BiS DC and no, it doesn't take a well played CW to kill a DC. I could show you a video of me getting hit for 50k IK followed by a 40k Disintegrate when I'm inside my empowered Astral Shield.
he is the same man that saying "i don't say it was easy or fair" and deep down he know's that TR is broken but still defending it
having a discussion with him are meaningless my friend
i seriusly wanna l2p to fight TR
so can some premade TR pass down their wisdom about how to counter TR?
with 2s reveal no longer exists
how you fight a class that either in stealth mode,ITC(cc imune+100% deflect chage with 75% deflc sev)mode,roll dodge time frame, or us being dazed by smokebomb,bloodbath mode?
i need something solid that can be pull off not some HAMSTER try to catch them by luck with predict their movement and use dobly 4.0 sound, or about TR VS TR
i am all ears here please..
if TR is not OP and counterable sure you can explain how right?
GWF-wise:
hidden daggers facing roughly the direction where the TR was spotted. 90° cone 40', look at where the enchant hitting effect appears (in my case, PF makes a blue flash). There you have your TR. Now you look at where he was spotted first time and where you spotted him after daggers and know the direction of his movement.
Don't run to the location where you've seen the enchant hitting but ahead of it along the direction of his movement (see above).
Pressure him as he will spam his long rolls to get away, occasionally throw daggers to keep him tracked.
If he goes ITC you kite/ sprint around DO NOT FACETANK. Count the seconds, when you know ITC is going to wear off, run at the TR. He will immediately dodge roll behind you (usually) as soon as ITC ends. Point your FLS beforehand in that direction and as soon as he lands, try to stun him. Hope stun does not get deflected and follow with TR-->IBS.
Hope he does not have SE ready.
When he's out of stealth and ITC he will most likely drop a smoke bomb as soon as you get in melee range, sprint beforehand to avoid the daze and get out of the smoke circle.
Carefully keep determination ready and pop unstoppable only when you're sure you'll have enough time to land some SS hits.
Building up damage your hidden daggers should also start to hit harder. DoTs are useful to deplete stealth. Keep pressuring and wait for an error/ keep damaging him.
Sometimes when the TR is hiding and you don't know where he is, a good move is to start changing direction suddenly, like running north then suddenly sprint sud a bit, don't keep a predictable pattern of movement or you'll make it easier for the TR to play with you.
Also never just run to where the TR is, fake it and then turn back as they often try to circle you and get back to where you spotted them while you look elsewhere.
Even doing the above, well with a GWF:
even with maxed tenacity, if the TR has SE ready prepare for an unavoidable huge hit
if the TR has negation prepare to tickle him only when in a prolonged fight
if the TR has lostamauth set say goodbye to your buttocks
if your stun gets deflected say goodbye to IBS and prepare to go for SS and HD hits only
if your stun does not get deflected but IBS gets deflected, prepare for low damage on your big nuke as many geared TRs get up to 85% deflect severity with elixir
even if you manage to "win", often the MI sabo TR will just spam roll away into stealth. With more stamina regeneration your sprint will deplete when he will still have at least one roll, plus once they go into stealth they outrun you anyway.
This is what i know/ do, usually can fight back, except vs the very geared ones. There you need negation as they burn you down regardless of how much HP/tenacity you have just with piercing damage, lostamauth set and SE here and there while being usually immune the whole time.
At least, poor little me with 100k HP and 42-84% tenacity+ 33% deflect+ 20k over time healing boon+ thayan bastion+ countless scars+ 10% LS chance get burnt down by BiS negation TRs in like...uhm...yeah, 10 seconds. Cause i have Gsoulforged instead of a shiny billionaire PNegation or above. And yeah, the TR is under some immunity the whole time. No CC, close to no damage if i try to attack, even kiting the damage is insanely high+ they have that power that still follows you and keeps hitting you wherever you go (don't remember the name).
- ITC too soon or too late on incoming prone. ITC goes into cooldown but doesn't activate.
- Shadow Strike when stealth is full. The next stealth will last half as long as it should.
- Smoke Bomb is not in sync with OWTS. Stealth does not refill instantly, and refills only if Smoke stays long enough until OWTS goes off cooldown.
- Dodge rolled 4x in a row when you are not casting encounters.
- In group vs. 1 and TR is targeting the wrong person (person he can't dispatch quickest).
- Missed Smoke Bomb.
- Gets CC'd while in Lurkers or after using Courage Breaker
- Dodge cancelling Shocking Execution but misses anyway.
- Playing hit and run.
~
Feel free to add whatever. If you fight someone who doesn't make at least one of these mistakes in a 2 minute period, you're screwed.
Comments
The actual effect isn't as large as you might think unless it's an Executioner Capstone + rank4 Tenacious Concealment, in which case while out of stealth the stealth meter recharges at +35% the normal speed with no 'stealth damage' and no 'stealth meter regen pause.' It's in this particular case that every dodge makes a quite large difference in terms of aiding with restealthing.
AFAIK most Sabos don't even slot TenCon in the first place because they already have it plenty easy to manage stealth, so they usually go for more useful utilities... in this case most of the stealth meter gained by Twilight Adept is just as easily spent by even small enemy attacks. OTOH, for Executioners, that's the new path of survival I've discovered as a non-Sabo WK.
What, so you want me to come in here (all sore loser like) complaining how the other classes are broken too, because I'm supposed to be so noble and dignified I'm above fighting fire with fire? I'm not. Or perhaps I should become one of those delusional "Oh leave TR alone, its not OP" cast. Well, boo hoo. And let's not forget the other crew, "Yeah let's nerf ITC I'm WK," whom had a slight bias of being long-standing MI rivals.
Suuuure, let me just do that. On second thought, never. I know this path is broken. At least I'm transparent about it, which is more than I can say for everyone else's predominant double standards with regards to their own class.
after your comment embracemysword dug himself a nice bed alongside turnips
There are also some prooly designed feast which boost crit dmg and so on for "X"s when a target dies in a range of "X". If these things get in effect with other buffs you can get pretty big boost, but if they dont you get nothing which often lead to UP and OP situations.
Originally they put 12 charges on CoS and nerfed it down to 8.
We are always looking for new models --- Borderline Fashiondolls ---
As mac said, the limitation in the charges disappeared at the price of slower (MUCH slower) activation speed. When there were 8 charges the speed of the thrown daggers were literally blindingly fast. That gave it a limited use in PvP as a burst tool, but seriously hindered its use in PvE. The fix was more of PvE-oriented as they cut down on the activation speed for like 30% (which means direct -30% in DPS), but gave it unlimited use so a steady stream of damage can be secured.
Ironically, around the time the change was made most TR players were screaming about how it was a big nerf in PvP, with only a few others including myself correctly saw that it was in the long-term, a buff. The bursty nature of CoS was lowered, but as compensation it could be used more freely as a tactical tool.
...and you should read the patch notes when a new mod comes into place. Scoundrels are dead and extinct. Blind rage from the masses killed it, and instead, now you have to deal with every Scoundrel player simply moving over to the Sabo, which was always the worst threat to anyone in PvP.
Same applies to CWs, but at least CWs are actually killable in 1v1.
Mod 12.5 PvP Power/Crit/Arp Optimization
Youtube channel (PvE/PvP)
scoundrels arent dead at all i still see them from time to time doing really well with mediocre gear.
Lmao, maybe your WK buils is killable in a 1on1. But not an equaly skilled/geard SaB thats for sure.
only if played correctly. but yes once you figure out a good rotation they become unstoppable.
so can some premade TR pass down their wisdom about how to counter TR?
with 2s reveal no longer exists
how you fight a class that either in stealth mode,ITC(cc imune+100% deflect chage with 75% deflc sev)mode,roll dodge time frame, or us being dazed by smokebomb,bloodbath mode?
i need something solid that can be pull off not some HAMSTER try to catch them by luck with predict their movement and use dobly 4.0 sound, or about TR VS TR
i am all ears here please..
if TR is not OP and counterable sure you can explain how right?
Yes, premades know how to figt vs TR- you must send 2 vs 1 to have a chance to kill TR. Please stop talking these all nonsense becouse it isn't even funny anymore.
There is only 1 character who have chance against TR- it's Paladin
about gear.. i am 3.5k ilv HR and being kitting for 2minutes and died by TR in 1 on 1 node fight.. pretty much that TR is undergear for not able to kill HR in 2 minutes
sorry i am looking for premade TR for wisdom.. not someone who say "I didn't say it was easy or fair" yet still defending TR is not OP with 2s reveal no longer exists
Easy target lock
/bind LCtrl +HardTargetLock
so need 2 vs 1 to have a chance to kill TR. yet some of this forum still defending that TR is not OP?
personaly right now i think TR is OP too.. looking for some wisdom that maybe can change my mind here
"TRs are very killable 1vs1"
Are we playing the same game? WK does get killed a lot but a skilled BiS MI TR? No F*cking way. Just name me one good PvP player who isn't a TR/OP that thinks "TRs are very killable 1vs1".
I play a BiS DC and no, it doesn't take a well played CW to kill a DC. I could show you a video of me getting hit for 50k IK followed by a 40k Disintegrate when I'm inside my empowered Astral Shield.
Mod 12.5 PvP Power/Crit/Arp Optimization
Youtube channel (PvE/PvP)
he is the same man that saying "i don't say it was easy or fair" and deep down he know's that TR is broken but still defending it
having a discussion with him are meaningless my friend
GWF-wise:
hidden daggers facing roughly the direction where the TR was spotted. 90° cone 40', look at where the enchant hitting effect appears (in my case, PF makes a blue flash). There you have your TR. Now you look at where he was spotted first time and where you spotted him after daggers and know the direction of his movement.
Don't run to the location where you've seen the enchant hitting but ahead of it along the direction of his movement (see above).
Pressure him as he will spam his long rolls to get away, occasionally throw daggers to keep him tracked.
If he goes ITC you kite/ sprint around DO NOT FACETANK. Count the seconds, when you know ITC is going to wear off, run at the TR. He will immediately dodge roll behind you (usually) as soon as ITC ends. Point your FLS beforehand in that direction and as soon as he lands, try to stun him. Hope stun does not get deflected and follow with TR-->IBS.
Hope he does not have SE ready.
When he's out of stealth and ITC he will most likely drop a smoke bomb as soon as you get in melee range, sprint beforehand to avoid the daze and get out of the smoke circle.
Carefully keep determination ready and pop unstoppable only when you're sure you'll have enough time to land some SS hits.
Building up damage your hidden daggers should also start to hit harder. DoTs are useful to deplete stealth. Keep pressuring and wait for an error/ keep damaging him.
Sometimes when the TR is hiding and you don't know where he is, a good move is to start changing direction suddenly, like running north then suddenly sprint sud a bit, don't keep a predictable pattern of movement or you'll make it easier for the TR to play with you.
Also never just run to where the TR is, fake it and then turn back as they often try to circle you and get back to where you spotted them while you look elsewhere.
Even doing the above, well with a GWF:
even with maxed tenacity, if the TR has SE ready prepare for an unavoidable huge hit
if the TR has negation prepare to tickle him only when in a prolonged fight
if the TR has lostamauth set say goodbye to your buttocks
if your stun gets deflected say goodbye to IBS and prepare to go for SS and HD hits only
if your stun does not get deflected but IBS gets deflected, prepare for low damage on your big nuke as many geared TRs get up to 85% deflect severity with elixir
even if you manage to "win", often the MI sabo TR will just spam roll away into stealth. With more stamina regeneration your sprint will deplete when he will still have at least one roll, plus once they go into stealth they outrun you anyway.
This is what i know/ do, usually can fight back, except vs the very geared ones. There you need negation as they burn you down regardless of how much HP/tenacity you have just with piercing damage, lostamauth set and SE here and there while being usually immune the whole time.
At least, poor little me with 100k HP and 42-84% tenacity+ 33% deflect+ 20k over time healing boon+ thayan bastion+ countless scars+ 10% LS chance get burnt down by BiS negation TRs in like...uhm...yeah, 10 seconds. Cause i have Gsoulforged instead of a shiny billionaire PNegation or above. And yeah, the TR is under some immunity the whole time. No CC, close to no damage if i try to attack, even kiting the damage is insanely high+ they have that power that still follows you and keeps hitting you wherever you go (don't remember the name).
Hope it helps you. Lol.
TR is OP and, if the moons are aligned in your favor, can be countered.
Common errors, even pros make;
- ITC too soon or too late on incoming prone. ITC goes into cooldown but doesn't activate.
- Shadow Strike when stealth is full. The next stealth will last half as long as it should.
- Smoke Bomb is not in sync with OWTS. Stealth does not refill instantly, and refills only if Smoke stays long enough until OWTS goes off cooldown.
- Dodge rolled 4x in a row when you are not casting encounters.
- In group vs. 1 and TR is targeting the wrong person (person he can't dispatch quickest).
- Missed Smoke Bomb.
- Gets CC'd while in Lurkers or after using Courage Breaker
- Dodge cancelling Shocking Execution but misses anyway.
- Playing hit and run.
~
Feel free to add whatever. If you fight someone who doesn't make at least one of these mistakes in a 2 minute period, you're screwed.