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TR out of control (CoS/SO/LM)
zeusom
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 810 Arc User
You thought mod5 rogue was overpowered mix of insane high dmg and survival? Mod6 is worse.
A geared rogue does not even need dailies and encounters anymore - shocking execution, bloodbath, smokebomb are just jacks for openers. All a geared TR needs to do is roll around, stealth, and throw dagger at wills with the Lostmauth set equipped.
Clouds of Steel at-will with Shadowy Opportunity + Lostmauth set melts 100,000 HP in a few seconds. Roll. Stealth. Throw daggers. Roll stealth. Throw daggers. Roll... yaaaaaawn.
How boring.
TR are rolling with 10-1 or much higher (no class comes close) kill-death doing just this.
Shadowy opportunity is apparently doubleprocing the 75% piercing hit (not sure, didn't read other thread). The 75% weapon damage as piercing is already excessive with orange elemental weap.
Lostmauth set procs 100% of time with 100% crit and even the belt stats (STR/DEX) are great for TR too.
Lostmauth set has the most powerful offensive set bonus ever introduced into the game and it buffs damage the most for classes with highest effective in combat crit chance (again TR and CW). Why devs why. These were already the strongest offense classes.
TYPICAL TR COPYPASTE BUILD DAMAGE CHART:
Seeing charts like this over and over and over.
Over 75% ofl damage coming from just at will procs.
Roll. Stealth. Throw daggers. Roll stealth. Throw daggers. Roll...
WaI or BaF?
A geared rogue does not even need dailies and encounters anymore - shocking execution, bloodbath, smokebomb are just jacks for openers. All a geared TR needs to do is roll around, stealth, and throw dagger at wills with the Lostmauth set equipped.
Clouds of Steel at-will with Shadowy Opportunity + Lostmauth set melts 100,000 HP in a few seconds. Roll. Stealth. Throw daggers. Roll stealth. Throw daggers. Roll... yaaaaaawn.
How boring.
TR are rolling with 10-1 or much higher (no class comes close) kill-death doing just this.
Shadowy opportunity is apparently doubleprocing the 75% piercing hit (not sure, didn't read other thread). The 75% weapon damage as piercing is already excessive with orange elemental weap.
Lostmauth set procs 100% of time with 100% crit and even the belt stats (STR/DEX) are great for TR too.
Lostmauth set has the most powerful offensive set bonus ever introduced into the game and it buffs damage the most for classes with highest effective in combat crit chance (again TR and CW). Why devs why. These were already the strongest offense classes.
TYPICAL TR COPYPASTE BUILD DAMAGE CHART:
Seeing charts like this over and over and over.
Over 75% ofl damage coming from just at will procs.
Roll. Stealth. Throw daggers. Roll stealth. Throw daggers. Roll...
WaI or BaF?
Post edited by zeusom on
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Comments
says CW, rofl.
Stop posting random images that prove nothing. Most TR's will gladly stop throwing daggers when their encounters will start dealing real dmg on low cd, like desintegrate.
Rogue has incredibly high amounts of both and incredible speed too.
Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack
5 CWs with most kills from leaderboard
Kills/.Death........ Kd/ratio.........Number of matches.............Average kills/death per match
12448 / 5007...= ..... 2.49..................1300.....................................9.58 / 3.85
5 TRs with most kills from leaderboard
Kills/Death........Kd/ratio..........Number of matches............Average kills/death per match
11593 / 1339... =...8.65.......................1154.....................................10.05 / 1.16
Yep you can clearly see that what Tr miss out on atm is enconters like dissintergrate with piercing ofc....
Numbers from ladderboard are irrelevant because:
1. Players are not matched against equally geared opponnets
2. Ladderboard doesnt take in to account GG which is a lot more popular.
Now tell me how these numbers become irrelevant.
Do they lie, do they point in the wrong direction or give falce indication ?
Gg runs hold even more Trs then in domination and they dominate even more in GG runs then in domination matches.
You can call the numbers what you want but irrelevenat to the issue at hand that would be more of a denial of fact. that the numbers being irrelevent.....
Leaderboard numbers the way he is showing are very much relevant.
Gauntylgrym does not mean that domination does not exist.
Over 10,000 toons on the leaderboard for domination prove that.
Both of these points are bogus.
CW damage is overpowered, survivability is decent/good.
TR damage is overpowered, survivability is exceptional.
And I am neither QQ
Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack
Not sure what this is supposed to say, if the sarcasm is just really heavy but the numbers here tell me that:
1) Top 5 TRs average K/D ratio is 3.4x HIGHER I mean TRs have JUST as many kills as CW but have about 1/4th the number of deaths......
2) Number of games is a moot point, its enough of a sample data.
3) Again average kills per match over deaths, TR comes out with a STRONG favorite.....
Its just SILLY. If TR wants better encounters then fine, but youll end up losing re-stealth encounters and ITC, so TRs I dont think will EVER want to not slot utility encounters.
Even back when Impact shot was god-mode, you would STILL see every TR running with Shadow Strike and or ITC... Because the ability to re-stealth or nearly not take any damage trumps damage encounters.
Because what are the options? Either you kill them 100-0 with damage encounter (which is OP) OR you dont kill them with damage encounters and then GG if YOU dont have either the ability to re-stealth OR ITC... So nearly no matter how you play itll almsot NEVER make sense to remove a utility encounter unless they make TR so OP that you can 1 rotation anyone with 3 damage encounters... Which then id ask, is that balanced? Nope.
The more I have thought about all of this and discussed with other players, it lead to the conclusion of this:
What is the issue of TR being able to do these things? 1v1 anyone, kill high armor targets, never get hit etc... What is the issue? Its not that on the FACE VALUE its OP - its that the TR can do all this AND contest nodes which is how you win PVP.
If you made this a "slayer game" it wouldnt be seen so much as "OP" because its more a "team" based game, not 1v1s like it can be in domination.
So my solution? DONT nerf TR and DONT change a thing. INSTEAD just make it so when a TR stealths, they are NOT contesting a node and cannot cap a node stealthed.
Problem solved.
Now they can still be the uber god mode class and THE assassin, however they are not the best at defending a node. They may still be the best node clearers or the class that comes up and nukes a solo player capping, but now they have a draw back in PVP. They are a DPS class NOT a "defending" class.
Now the TR can keep everything about their class. The damage, the survivability, the tankiness, etc. But just remove the ability to contest nodes and the entire game changes for the better IMO.
1) some of the highest, if not the highest, DPS output in the game
2) said DPS output also comes from piercing damage
3) all this DPS comes while being untargetable
4) some of the best solo dailies in the game
5) highest survivability in the game
6) greatest 1v1/1vmore capacity out of all the classes in the game
7) the greatest amount of immunity frames in the game
8) high mobility, due to stealth
9) high movement speed (this does depend on feats slotted, though)
10) one of the only DPS classes with the ability to mitigate/avoid damage completely (through use of stealth) - the only other class with this ability has VERY limited stealth abilities with high cooldowns, and much lower damage
Together this combination is deadly and impossible to defeat 1v1. No, I'm not talking about fighting pugs, I'm talking about high-end, premade-level PvP. I call BS on people complaining TRs are weak atm.
And no, the "only one path is viable" complaint is irrelevant. The same goes for a lot of classes atm - it's a matter of finding what the best is and going from there, not taking what's not viable and trying to buff that while making what's already viable even more powerful.
TRs should not be nerfed into the ground, but people complaining that they're "weak", are "squishy", "don't do damage", will "die without stealth" should honestly go and fight a properly spec'd and geared TR. I think nerfing the key components of the problems right now, such as ITC and piercing damage, will open up more room for buffs that will make the other two paths also viable, and the rogue a solid and more balanced class overall, rather than just being a one man army that no one can defeat.
I've posted this before, but I'll say this again:
1) ITC should have a "charge refill" cooldown added (like HR Forest Ghost), so that the skill's cooldown is not reduced while it's in use. Alternatively, ITC could be a CC breaker only, with deflect increased by 20% and 20% unmitigatable multiplicative DR, and 20% CC resist.
2) Shadowy Opportunity multiproc needs to be fixed.
3) Shadowy Opportunity should deal physical/normal damage, not piercing damage. Damage could also be decreased overall, if it still does too much damage after this change. I don't think it'll be necessary, though.
4) Stealth reveal should be added in for Cloud of Steel at the very least, or at least some method of counter against ranged CoS + SO spam should be added in. However, with the above changes this could be unnecessary.
5) One with the Shadows (Saboteur capstone) should not refill stealth if the target dodges the encounter. Smoke bomb should only proc OWTS on the first tick, not all subsequent ticks. On that note, OWTS should also be fixed to refill 100% of the stealth bar instead of 99%.
6) TRs don't need 1% deflect on DEX as well, should be the same as all other classes.
7) RSI needs a cap.
8) Shady Preparations needs a cooldown, or an effectiveness reduction. It's essentially +20% RSI every time you enter stealth, and is part of the permastealth problem.
There's probably a few other things, but that's probably the core of TR issues right now. However, on the other hand, once these things are nerfed/fixed, TRs will probably need buffs in other areas. I think it will be a step in the right direction, though, because these core things are also what's causing TRs to be forced into permastealth, due to it being so strong, and the alternative far too weak. With these changes, permastealth and combat can be more balanced and viable, without destroying either path completely.
"There is an elephant in the room"
"Are you sure its an elephant?"
"Yes, its an elephant. In the room. There it is."
"But its tail its out the window, so its not really in the room, not all the way"
"So. It's an elephant in the room."
"No its not. Not really. I just proved that."
"No you did not. Its taking up too much space. And it stinks".
"Are you sure its even an elephant? Maybe its wooly mammoth."
"Does it really matter? It just shat on the carpet..."
"So clean it up."
"No, its your f'ing elephant!"
"Well, its bothering you. I like him."
"But its breaking everything".
"Well maybe that's what God wants."
"Take your elephant and gtfo."
"There is no elephant."
".....oO......"
Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack
Meh, removal is a bit harsh IMO. Removing the IMMUNITY and changing it into a 1-time CC break + added recharge time should be enough. If anything needs removed or suppressed, it's SO. I'd prefer SO removed entirely and then replaced with a different type of buff. Or, limit its damage to around similar to Oppressive Darkness and that should be fine.
The node contesting could probably be changed into one of those "click-activate for X seconds for a turnover" mechanics, which would certainly make interesting, but frankly I'm not sure it'd make it worse or better.
I know you don't like this one, but they also need to roll back on the freebie-AP items, both the cloaks, and SigDiv. SigDiv on a 1min counter is a joke.
Im saying that we cant prove either way, hence it's all speculation. PvP in this game is not about K/D/R ratio but reaching specific amount of points for your team and killing potential is not always needed to achieve it, since you can win with nearly immortal healers or tanks outcapping enemies.
You can speculate about classes K/D/A when equally geared players will get matched only against each other + they will play equal amount of matches. Not to mention premades which may greatly increase killing + survivality potential.
Current ladderboard is just FFA, hence stats are worthless.
Technically speaking, you're correct that the so-called 'stats' a certain troll has brought up doesn't have any direct relevance to what his demented mind is arguing. There isn't enough relevant data/information to prove his so-called theory, which is like arguing "the temperature of Earth is rising since pirates started disappearing after the 19th century". Unless he gets access to total numbers of each class, and then comes up with a set standard on how to make sample groups out of them, and through a few more boring mathematical processes, then the stats would be trusty and would be considered accurate representation of what's going on.
...but that being said, Sabos are still OP.
This is correct. THe K/D thing is only a SHADOW of reality. Most of those stats are inflated from PUG games and really dont tell the full story. What IS the full story though?
If an equal geared TR faces an equal geared NON-TR. TR wins (if he is at all decent).
If an equal geared TR faces TWO equal geared non-TR players. TR can stalemate on node for a LONG time.
Now, please find any other class that can do something remotely close? You cant.
Any other class either can do 1 or the other but never both and never as good.
Sure a GF can 1 combo a player 1v1 and win. But throw enemies 2v1 and he will melt in seconds.
Sure a DC can live a long time 2v1 but will NEVER be able to kill someone 1v1, same with an OP, they may be the CLOSEST thing to a TR but only because of a bugged power that should be fixed eventually.
The fact of the matter, as I said before, the TR has it all:
1) amazing damage - they can melt a 100k+ HP in just a few seconds with Lurkers and CoS Spam + SO + LOL set.
2) TR can live a LONG time with ITC, Shadow Strike and stealth + Dodge Rolls.
3) If caught, just press "ITC" and have CC immunity and 75% "DR Equiv" for what 6 seconds?
Now again, ALL of this is ONLY really an issue when a TR is contesting a node. Then it becomes "unfair" that he is unable to catch, gets an "oh <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>" button (ITC) and can also KILL players fairly easily.
So why not JUST remove the ability to contest nodes WHILE stealthed? Now NONE of it is an issue. TR is a slippery devil, good damage, hard to kill, assasin but is NOT good at holding a node. DONE! You just balanced the TR without changing ANYTHING with the TR.
Now instead of a TR being mandatory for each PVP team, its an OPTION because he is not THE uber "god" class for node holding.
Otherwise where else should we change TR? Nerf damage? Nerf ITC? Nerf stealth? I mean NO TR is willing to nerf their class and those things impact PVE.... Why not just change the ONE PVP issue.
ITC feels more like ITK (impossible to kill) and definitely needs to be adjusted.
My experience with oppressive darkness is that in a long sample (40 million or more damage) it contributes less than 1% to the total damage. It is much less than any damage proc boon even. To relegate SO to the level of OD would render it a wasted 5 feat points, now if it could actually be made to do 75% of the true weapon damage (or I suppose 75% of both weapons totaled) it would probably be about right even if it remained as piercing. If it were actually based on the actual weapon damage and not subject to modifiers and criticals it would probably be just what it was supposed to be.
Hence, my arguments on removal, because when its something like SO and how it effects both its wielders and its victims, there's no "middle point" either side can agree on. For the wielders, any kind of nerf will feel too severe and 'useless', for victims, no nerf is strong enough and will always feel unfair.
So, remove it totally replace it with another type of buff. Let the Sabos be able to stealth better than any of us Scoundrels/Executioners. But when they can do that, they already have the highest efficiency in both terms of defense and offense. Why they should have the highest practical DPS is beyond me.
I mean, yeah, Executioners can still hit for numbers really high, but to land such an attack the Exec needs to close in and land an encounter, which takes a big risk, especially now that stealth duration is also nerfed, and falling into a situation with no stealth, no ITC, no SS happens a lot more often than it used to. As a matter of fact, in terms of catching up and destroying mediocre TRs, mod6 is the easiest ever.
Sabos... they don't really do anything else than the basic "hide, move, throw CoS." They don't risk stealth by having to find an "attack timing" and use encounters to land damage -- like us Scoundrels/Execs have to. They stand anywhere between 15'~60' distance away, continue attacks with a basic ranged at-will, and the amount of damage these series of simple attacks amount upto makes even the strongest Executioner attack pale in comparison.
Sabos don't need to use big, dangerous attacks, don't need to risk getting in close or managing stealth... always remaining in a safety distance, simply keep throwing CoS and that alone deals twice~three times more damage than any other TR build. Why should they be able to do that? Why should they hold the leisure of being the highest survivability, highest damage, and easiest management at the same time?
Sabos don't need SO. They CERTAINLY don't need that kind of damage buff at all. If anything they should be the weakest damage of them all.
And...go!
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
Get any sab TR to not take piercing feat, get BiS and go against any other BiS character and you are getting rolled. take away piercing you better tone down negation, arm pen resist, empowered shield, and on and on. just look how great scound TR are doing...
There are threads popping up asking for a nerf to just about every TR skill, its unreal.
Shadow opportunity is the problem
Lostmauth set is the problem
Make lostmauth set proc 10% on any hit (removes 100% proc chance on stealth and eye of the storm)
Fix shadow opportunity's double proc, and remove it's piercing damage. Let it be normal damage.
No nerf needed. Fix the above two lines and there is no more imbalance.
That's not just your silly TR. EVERY DPS in the game has this problem. The problem is not TR it's the enchantment. My SW cannot kill a good shield T neg CW or faithful DC with t neg.
The problem is not the class, the problem is the enchantment
Side note to everyone: please stop turning the subject around and talk as it really is, it's only misleading to the devs and distracts them for the real issues.
It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.
More threads by me / Click on it
My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
Is that not a predicament a permastealth should face?
Don't use us Scoundrels as an excuse, because we've already accepted the truth in mod5 that our low and weak damage is a result of being given great strengths in terms of CC. We excel in one area, so we are forced a counterweight in another. What does the Sabo carry as a counterweight to it being the most efficient offense, most efficient defense, and most powerful DPS all at the same time? What is the weakness of Sabos? Does it even have one?
There are certainly such thread, yep. But not this one. SO needs to go. It's either Sabos keep the easy-stealth and loses the damage, or vice versa. But conceptually the Sabo path is supposedly the master of stealth. Then the answers are quite clear, methinks.
Exe can do the same burst with CoS as long as you hit target below 30% of HP (below 70% if you're in stealth is still pretty good dmg, but real burst kick in with second passive under 30%).
For the CoS spam with Sabs i already posted solution in other thread. SO dmg proc based on how far TR is from it's target. With the higher bonus (up to 100% when in min range, but you're visible to the attacker in that case) to 10% piercing dmg when standing at max range (60m). This would solve the annoyance.
I dont have anything agaisnt this idea, even though i disagree with your opinion about TR winning every 1vs1 against non-TR classes.
You come here to complain and post a constructive feedback only to be encountered and then criticized/called mean names by a pack of local forum warriors, worshiping one certain class. I've been reading and stumbling upon this for months and I feel like you guys just make the same posts in a different fashion all over again turning into some kind of grind mini-game, even the opposing sides never change!
What is the purpose for this?
Yet, again, months later, the same bugs are being abused all over again except for it's been more spread and revealed now. Nothing is being changed, do you even see Devs posting in this section except for that "A call to the PvP community"? I don't, HEs and Tiamat are more important, I think. Meanwhile somebody posted a video of a companion oneshotting tiamat's head...
Are TRs OP?
Of course, they are. 90K+ shocking executions and never ending deflection/ITC dodge tyranny with a spamm of cloud of steel dishing up to 9k damage againt full tenacity targets without reveal is absolutely "fine" rotten cheese. Even atop of all CW procs/shiedl, HR's permadaze, DC's ridiculous GoF heals and SW's hand of blight. And the worst part is WORKS AS INTENDED! Even hand of blight main-hand feature is, since the tooltip only states "???"
It's futile.
WTB Class Reroll please