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Scourge Warlocks needs a bit of love in PvP

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  • vasdamasvasdamas Member Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    No self-criticism when your own class joins the same no-brainer level of OP us TRs are at? Is that how this goes?
    I played TR from m1 to m5, had a lot of PvP experience with my TR. I could be playing TR again in PvP but seeing how my TR executioner with rank 5s and lesser vorpal oneshots a 20k 40k HP GWF makes me kind of sad. It takes so much concentration for me to kill a TR and it takes just two bloody buttons for TR to do it. Bloodbath that grants an immunity to all damage is nonsense too, you push yourself so hard, Curse > WB > DT them and they just pull 3 bloodbaths within 2 minutes on you. Is there a counter measure for that? I don't think so.
    It's all supposition.

    You suppose that there's actually a good TR on the enemy team that you can't beat with your current class. Then why not suppose your own TR is on the same level with the guy, so basically both home nodes are contested -- in which case the fight will be basically decided by the control of the mid node where the rest of the guys will duke it out, with the backcap TRs of both sides possibly joining a fray. So the team that wins in the mid more often wins.

    Sounds pretty standard.
    I'd rather say sound pretty perfect, which happens like once a year..
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    give me four never ending dodges, thats all, or take them away from DC, TR, btw i play a DC, so i would adapt to changes would probably play with 2 dodges and AS
    it would be better to fix these obvious broken things, like AS, ITC, sod, Bloodbath dogdes to the moon and back, permadaze , perma stealth, perma BS , sure
    but....since this game is reta(r)ded in fixing anything or turn back the screw, the only way to be competeable is damand same broken BS for your class, sad but true
    You suppose that there's actually a good TR on the enemy team that you can't beat with your current class. Then why not suppose your own TR is on the same level with the guy, so basically both home nodes are contested -- in which case the fight will be basically decided by the control of the mid node where the rest of the guys will duke it out, with the backcap TRs of both sides possibly joining a fray. So the team that wins in the mid more often wins.

    lets suppose u have the nub trash TR that stumbles over his own leg...can´t follow your arguments again
  • vaelynxvaelynx Member Posts: 182 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Except that's not how balance is achieved, sir. Balance is about hammering back in the protruding nail, not pulling out every other nail to the exact same level so in the end the structure may simply collapse. I find it bizarre and appaling to see people who ridicule and belittle TR or DC players that it's all OP and no skill, and then suddenly profess to the world that they want the same level of raw power to control the fight as they please just like the very classes they criticize.
    The same error, par excellence. Balance is achieved at either of those points, because, while it might come off as a surprise to some, in PvP you fight against essentially all the other classes, not some nameless daemon of universal balance. Therefore, the nail analogy falls on its face, because there's nothing inherently wrong about balance at a high power level as opposed to a low one. Besides, noone is arguing for making the classes exact replicas of each other, just doing a couple sensible things that'll make the gap not so insanely huge (namely, giving SW either a dodge chance or more DR, and ungimping regeneration).

    The second point is similar to the next one, I'll address it there.

    So if the SWs or other classes all get boosted up to insane levels us TRs or DCs are at right now, that suddenly makes it OK? TR players are no longer skill-less despite nothing has changed for them? No self-criticism when your own class joins the same no-brainer level of OP us TRs are at? Is that how this goes?
    Uh, yes?
    Let's use a chess analogy. At the moment, a SW pretty much starts off with a king, queen and a row of peasants, while certain other classes start with a full row of figures and yet others perhaps have a bishop extra. (GWF gets just king, queen and a single tower XD). Now, if you're playing like this against an opponent with a full set, it's pretty clear you're very likely to lose. It's also clear that you can win, if he's a poor chess player, but the more competent he gets, the slimmer your chances become.

    Now suppose someone gives you a full figure set. Suddenly, the game has become fair and your chance of winning is determined by skill, despite nothing having changed for the, say "designated TR" chess player. Once again, the reason is the same - he isn't playing in a vacuum, he's playing against you.
    I understand mod5 has left PTSD to a lot of players, but some are getting just plane ridiculous. We've now got GWF players whining that mod2 GWFs weren't OP in any way -- and people with L2P issues have purposely slandered their class and somehow created a sinister influence to nerf GWFs to oblivion (which, btw, means that they're now DISSing every single one of you as well). We've got people cracking jokes and ridiculing the OP classes and their players consistently, and then they turn out to be actually wanting the same thing in their hearts.
    Uh, and how is that surprising? People are cracking jokes and ridiculing the OP classes because they got a vastly ****tier deal themselves, and well, making fun of things is better than endless rage.
    And then of course, as I've mentioned many times, the simple, blind rage and hatred towards everything that has to do with TRs -- with extreme discrimination and prejudice -- that simply TR players speaking up their opinions are now treated as hypocrites and TR apologists -- even when most of these TR players in the forums have actually been the ones who have always supported balances and nerfs to the very class they play.
    This overwhelmingly reminds me of that executive who was explaining how people think he's got so much money but it isn't true because once he pays the mortgage on his three houses, insurance, gas, and private school fee for his kids, he's left with barely 2000 bucks to go on with.
    You know what, it's getting pathetic. Such drama and rage over a game. Just kicking everyone away, hating the world, hating how things are. Why not just frickin' quit the game then?

    You know what's getting pathetic? Someone getting themselves in a knot arguing for a bull**** stance, then trying to dismiss the whole topic by going "this is just a game." What are you doing here, then? You were here first, after all.

    Also... you know plenty peeps have actually quit bothering with PvP for this reason? Which kinda doesn't mean quitting the game at large, because PvE has different balance.
  • svekoljsvekolj Member Posts: 65
    edited March 2015
    Except that's not how balance is achieved, sir. Balance is about hammering back in the protruding nail, not pulling out every other nail to the exact same level so in the end the structure may simply collapse. I find it bizarre and appaling to see people who ridicule and belittle TR or DC players that it's all OP and no skill, and then suddenly profess to the world that they want the same level of raw power to control the fight as they please just like the very classes they criticize.

    so basically, nerf tr, nerf dc, nerf cw,
    oh and nerf hr :D

    that's a lot of nails to hammer in, most of them actually
  • overdriver13overdriver13 Member Posts: 1,521 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Except that's not how balance is achieved, sir. Balance is about hammering back in the protruding nail, not pulling out every other nail to the exact same level so in the end the structure may simply collapse. I find it bizarre and appaling to see people who ridicule and belittle TR or DC players that it's all OP and no skill, and then suddenly profess to the world that they want the same level of raw power to control the fight as they please just like the very classes they criticize.

    So if the SWs or other classes all get boosted up to insane levels us TRs or DCs are at right now, that suddenly makes it OK? TR players are no longer skill-less despite nothing has changed for them? No self-criticism when your own class joins the same no-brainer level of OP us TRs are at? Is that how this goes?

    I understand mod5 has left PTSD to a lot of players, but some are getting just plane ridiculous. We've now got GWF players whining that mod2 GWFs weren't OP in any way -- and people with L2P issues have purposely slandered their class and somehow created a sinister influence to nerf GWFs to oblivion (which, btw, means that they're now DISSing every single one of you as well). We've got people cracking jokes and ridiculing the OP classes and their players consistently, and then they turn out to be actually wanting the same thing in their hearts.

    And then of course, as I've mentioned many times, the simple, blind rage and hatred towards everything that has to do with TRs -- with extreme discrimination and prejudice -- that simply TR players speaking up their opinions are now treated as hypocrites and TR apologists -- even when most of these TR players in the forums have actually been the ones who have always supported balances and nerfs to the very class they play.


    You know what, it's getting pathetic. Such drama and rage over a game. Just kicking everyone away, hating the world, hating how things are. Why not just frickin' quit the game then?

    Whoa wait a second. Who ever said they wanted SW boosted to the insane levels of tr?

    The subject of the thread is "SWs need a bit of love in pvp".

    Why are you arguing against this?

    There is no jealousy or wanting ones class to be as op easy mode as most tr builds. If people want that they just log their tr.

    I don't get where your rant is coming from. People don't want to play tr because they don't enjoy playing most games in easy mode.

    Bottom line people just want parity between the classes.

    How can that be wrong?
  • mirrorballsmirrorballs Member Posts: 877 Bounty Hunter
    edited March 2015
    Whoa wait a second. Who ever said they wanted SW boosted to the insane levels of tr?

    The subject of the thread is "SWs need a bit of love in pvp".

    Why are you arguing against this?

    There is no jealousy or wanting ones class to be as op easy mode as most tr builds. If people want that they just log their tr.

    I don't get where your rant is coming from. People don't want to play tr because they don't enjoy playing most games in easy mode.

    Bottom line people just want parity between the classes.

    How can that be wrong?

    Read the whole 2~3 pages before that rant came, and see who started the rant first. Dunno if the mods might have deleted it tho.

    So here's my version of what happened. I made a mere suggestion that; "I would love to see the SW get improved by focusing even more into their strengths rather than just having another 'survive everything', 'kill everything' method of balancing things out".

    Then, suddenly, someone comes along and basically starts this totally unwarranted bashing against me and treats everything as some hypocritic hidden-agenda to stop SWs from becoming just as strong as any other class -- and guess what; because I'm a TR main. So of course, since I'm a TR, I just love SWs being squishy and easy to kill, and my suggestion based on my preference to see SWs become a fragile but pen-ultimate debuff/anti-TR/anti-DC machines, is some kind of a plot to degrade SWs and make them remain weak forever.

    ..

    So I simply responded in kind.
  • overdriver13overdriver13 Member Posts: 1,521 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Read the whole 2~3 pages before that rant came, and see who started the rant first. Dunno if the mods might have deleted it tho.

    So here's my version of what happened. I made a mere suggestion that; "I would love to see the SW get improved by focusing even more into their strengths rather than just having another 'survive everything', 'kill everything' method of balancing things out".

    Then, suddenly, someone comes along and basically starts this totally unwarranted bashing against me and treats everything as some hypocritic hidden-agenda to stop SWs from becoming just as strong as any other class -- and guess what; because I'm a TR main. So of course, since I'm a TR, I just love SWs being squishy and easy to kill, and my suggestion based on my preference to see SWs become a fragile but pen-ultimate debuff/anti-TR/anti-DC machines, is some kind of a plot to degrade SWs and make them remain weak forever.

    ..

    So I simply responded in kind.

    lol ok, I just read the last couple of pages. SW is a fragile class because with even just a little change it can be op or utter trash. All it needs is some defensive buffs. Vague and general. Some defensive buffs. Some type of equivalent dodge mechanic, a bit more cc, faster animations, spells that don't get canceled when the caster is hit or stunned. People can take their pick. Implementing everything that everyone wants for sw would be too much. Implementing none of it is of course not enough.
  • mjytreszmjytresz Member Posts: 500 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    SW's design doesn't allow it to be viable for PvP after it hits max level. Even with good gear. Here's why:

    GWF and SW share the same concept in that they don't actually have a dodge. What GWF has is innate tanking ability. SW doesn't exactly have that without specifically speccing for it. GWF also has at least enough CC to lock a target for a few seconds. SW only has 1 hard CC.
    GWF also has their holy rotation of stunlock and spike damage. SW has a single hard CC and a channeled DPS that ends when "dodging" or being interrupted.

    SW's class design, right now, is decent for PvE and utterly horrid for PvP. Considering every class has some way to break their channel, most of their DPS is already negated.
    Soulbinder is in an even worse position. The entire Soul Spark mechanic doesn't work in PvP. No one has the time to build up enough Sparks to make it work, much less put out the DPS to not get instantly wrecked.

    The entire class needs an overhaul.
    Then again, this is PWE. They'll wait a few mods to make SW the new TR and everyone will reroll. There's no balance to be found.
    Broken mechanics, broken class designs, lack of actual content, and over zealous, bronze-age moderation?

    Go Cryptic!
    PS - I quit.
  • edited March 2015
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  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    There are too many variables for there not to be operations going both ways. Let's imagine each class' overall PvP power level can be represented with a number. Something like this:

    TR -- 11
    DC -- 9
    HR -- 8
    CW -- 7
    GWF -- 7
    GF -- 6
    SW -- 3

    Now, the way to achieve a reasonable state of balance there would not be to make everyone 3s, but to make everyone 7s. Some go up, some go down. Some nails get hammered in, some get pulled out a bit.

    all in all according to the latest patch nodes on preview Walrock still neds love, like other classes need some more hate, there is still time to go for it, and please give us some kind of a matchmaking system, that would be at least the biggest improvement by far, bigger than every nerf or boost of any class
  • denvalddenvald Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 702 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I'm done trying with warlock, I'm done asking for buffs rightfully deserved and receiving a nerf hammer.

    I'm done, the class who needed the most to be buffed was nerfed. Fury capstone nerfed, TT nerfed, slow cast times, no dodges still, 1 replica of entangling force with double cooldown, absence of shield power, slow spark building, half the class features are useless(dark one's blessing snuff out.. and more just really?) And CWs got buffed a little more, like they have been every mod, getting stronger. Even in mod 6, the last of our advantages over CWs have evaporated, higher con meant significantly higher HP than CWs, but that advantage is no more in mod 6. with 70% of your hp coming from gear, cons has no play on that 70% of HP. 110k hp SW 100k CW, big deal. I think not

    I'm done, it's enough, same pvp maps we've had for years, they are completely out of touch with the SW playerbase. Nobody who reads the forums can rightfully think Fury nor TT needed a nerf, nor think damnation is a good spec if you give the soul puppet enough HP to withstand 2 hits and make half of your features useless in between.

    Devs have done a good job with balancing most classes for mod 6, except warlock. I've played 70 pvp on preview and it looked good, yes TR are still on top but most classes have better balance. Perhaps that's what they WANT. they want you to abandon this class, then in mod 7 they'll take it back to uber level so you know who will buy new gears for that new character. All those people who run the current-best class in pvp... because who likes losing? who likes playing with a handicap?

    I have alot of respect for you Misery(Vasdamas), your pvp prowess is admirable, you would be on page one if you resigned to a CW but I can completely understand why you don't want to do that. I've been torn between keeping the love for my SW and playing trough the handicap or playing CW main for a long time.

    Perhaps I'll finally make up my mind, or resign to playing lowbie pvp forever, because it's actually the most balanced pvp compared to 60(bar out 10-20 with Pvorp tr twinks) and is more fun because of it. I still got many char slots to go to 50 and I'll just end up with more leadership char. Fun+ money = win/win imo. It's kinda sad when you think about it, people not wanting to play end game because of lack of match making systems.

    Oh well, what can we do? I mean aside from playing another game..
    I am the monk, martial skill transcends the battlefield
    It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
    You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.

    More threads by me / Click on it B)
    My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
  • suicidalgodotsuicidalgodot Member Posts: 2,465 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    ...maybe - just maybe - putting our SWs on hold might send the message.

    I do hope, and this would be a prerequisite for that boycott having an effect, that the Cryptic folks occasionally check which class distribution they have in terms of their server time actively played...
  • charmagmacharmagma Member Posts: 144 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    ...maybe - just maybe - putting our SWs on hold might send the message.

    I do hope, and this would be a prerequisite for that boycott having an effect, that the Cryptic folks occasionally check which class distribution they have in terms of their server time actively played...
    If every SW quit they'd lose, what? 1% of the game population at this point? I don't think they're going to get that message. Everybody and their mom's former college roommate's cousin plays TR and DC now.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    they even don´t have any problems with getting rid of two classes in PVP (peering hard at the big guy with the two-hand sword)
  • overdriver13overdriver13 Member Posts: 1,521 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    charmagma wrote: »
    If every SW quit they'd lose, what? 1% of the game population at this point? I don't think they're going to get that message. Everybody and their mom's former college roommate's cousin plays TR and DC now.

    They won't get any message. The forums have been full of consistent, focused, and correct posts detailing the problems with the game since its inception. They have been ignored and the game is losing players to the extent the parent company is feeling the sting: http://mmoculture.com/2014/11/perfect-world-income-down-due-to-falling-number-of-neverwinter-players/

    Proven to be self-destructively deaf to player feed-back on such a large scale it is doubtful that a few falling stones in the midst of the avalanche will be noticed.

    None the less I am not playing for all of the reasons listed in this thread.
  • denvalddenvald Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 702 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I don't really care anymore, I'm going to keep playing with my warlock for as long as I feel like it, and if tomorrow that 'feel like it is gone' I'm going to another game. It's their loss for losing a customer (I'm not the only warlock in this position), and I know a couple GFs and many GWFs thinking the same thing. Alienate your playerbase by not listening to class balance and RP feedback? introduce more artifact gear for people to grind at without meaningful content? cool story, I know of other games around, cause NW isn't the only one.

    Cryptic doesn't listen to SW feedback (my class) and instead of buffing gives it the nerf hammer? They took away the core of the class? fair enough, I know of a game that used to have a subscription but is coming ftp on 17th march too. I used to invest my money in this game, but I haven't in months, I'm not satisfied with the product so I'm not going to spend money on it. And I'm sure as hell won't buy anymore of your RP bull****.


    I'm definitly not the only one thinking this seeing the ZAX has 3.8mil buying ZEN at max price offers as we speak, and steadily grows up.

    Just sayin'
    I am the monk, martial skill transcends the battlefield
    It is my my life style, my doctrine and my state of mind,
    You fight well, but without focus and discipline, you will fall.

    More threads by me / Click on it B)
    My Support Warlock/Temptation Thread
  • vortix44vortix44 Member Posts: 680 Bounty Hunter
    edited March 2015
    denvald wrote: »
    Ever wondered why there's never any SW on your team when you do domination?

    Admittedly, when all you can kill is a Gwf, you know that your class is screwed.
    English is not my first language.
  • vasdamasvasdamas Member Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    vortix44 wrote: »
    Admittedly, when all you can kill is a Gwf, you know that your class is screwed.

    Depends on what GWF is that.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I don't really care anymore, I'm going to keep playing with my warlock for as long as I feel like it, and if tomorrow that 'feel like it is gone' I'm going to another game. It's their loss for losing a customer (I'm not the only warlock in this position), and I know a couple GFs and many GWFs thinking the same thing. Alienate your playerbase by not listening to class balance and RP feedback? introduce more artifact gear for people to grind at without meaningful content? cool story, I know of other games around, cause NW isn't the only one.
    Cryptic doesn't listen to SW feedback (my class) and instead of buffing gives it the nerf hammer? They took away the core of the class? fair enough, I know of a game that used to have a subscription but is coming ftp on 17th march too. I used to invest my money in this game, but I haven't in months, I'm not satisfied with the product so I'm not going to spend money on it. And I'm sure as hell won't buy anymore of your RP bull****.
    I'm definitly not the only one thinking this seeing the ZAX has 3.8mil buying ZEN at max price offers as we speak, and steadily grows up.
    Just sayin'
    same as i do, waiting for mod 6 and in case of no improvement "hasta la vista" Neverwinter
    it was short... but it did hurt a lot, this game made me some years older in a few month
  • vasdamasvasdamas Member Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    SW - 1 encounter, CW full rotation on a SWa and if SW does not get burned through shift and actually manages to get Shielded CW down TADA!!!! ****ing Storm spell and Storm fury procs. **** this **** really, I am done with PvP, go play this masochism yourself. I think I am gonna ask delete the PvP guide too so people don't get foolished and fall into this SW slaughter and end up like me and some other top SW that no longer play. Kthxbye
  • mehguy138mehguy138 Member Posts: 1,803 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    vortix44 wrote: »
    Admittedly, when all you can kill is a Gwf, you know that your class is screwed.

    Ferocious Reaction will likely one shot you.
    M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
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