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You must cool off with the AD sinks

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  • vedran541vedran541 Member Posts: 199 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Refining is very costly, but NOT an AD sink.
    By buying refine stone (peridiot ressonance stones etc.) you just feed the bots.

    Maybe to you its not an AD sink, but for me its a big black hole of AD thats needs to be filled but never will be. Each mod they release new items/artifacts that costs so much AD to obtain. I get no sense of accomplishment when its not earned but bought.
    Also with mod4/mod5 they started giving items more then 1 enchantment slot. Even more AD that needs to be filled each mod. They are making it impossible for players to keep up with the games progression.

    New players will never in their life catch up to the old players. I know players that played since beta that still dont have all rank 10s + legendaries, simply because they didn't buy AD. With more money needed to gear up i definitely think they are going the wrong direction because there is no way to make AD by playing the game.

    Sometimes i wonder if they purposely drive people away from their game because their servers are to slim to handle a bigger player base. Or why they are doing these things to their players.

    I still wont give up until a DEV answers me on how im supposed to make 25+ million AD every 2 months. Because if they release new gear every two months they clearly want their players, and expect their players, to have the BiS gear by the end of a module, or else there is no reason for new gear.
  • luxarkluxark Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    vedran541 wrote: »
    Maybe to you its not an AD sink, but for me its a big black hole of AD thats needs to be filled but never will be.

    It is not a sink, since the AD does not vanish, it just changes owners.
  • luxarkluxark Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    ironzerg79 wrote: »
    Which I personally think might start in Module 6, as part of the 'big surprise'.

    Hopefully they are not just doing a dumb level increase in order to reset everyone.
  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Yes, it's going to be a level increase. In theory, they should go up to 90, but I'm guessing it will be 5 or 10 levels, stretched out and including a quest to chose your Epic Destiny.
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  • nameexpirednameexpired Member Posts: 1,282 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    vedran541 wrote: »
    Maybe to you its not an AD sink, but for me its a big black hole of AD thats needs to be filled but never will be. Each mod they release new items/artifacts that costs so much AD to obtain. I get no sense of accomplishment when its not earned but bought.
    Also with mod4/mod5 they started giving items more then 1 enchantment slot. Even more AD that needs to be filled each mod. They are making it impossible for players to keep up with the games progression.

    New players will never in their life catch up to the old players. I know players that played since beta that still dont have all rank 10s + legendaries, simply because they didn't buy AD. With more money needed to gear up i definitely think they are going the wrong direction because there is no way to make AD by playing the game.

    Sometimes i wonder if they purposely drive people away from their game because their servers are to slim to handle a bigger player base. Or why they are doing these things to their players.

    I still wont give up until a DEV answers me on how im supposed to make 25+ million AD every 2 months. Because if they release new gear every two months they clearly want their players, and expect their players, to have the BiS gear by the end of a module, or else there is no reason for new gear.
    We seem to differ in the meaning what an "AD sink" is.
    For me an AD sink takes AD out of the system.
    upgrade a pet to purple -> AD sink.
    you buy from me 17x99 resonance stones -> you loose your AD -> I get AD -> no AD sink (in my opinion)

    I am totally happy with my 8 toons @ approx 16k-18k GS. Mostly rank 7s, mostly purple artifacts.
    I do not feel the need to have everything at MAX. If you choose to have everything at MAX this is, imho, your problem.
    The game can be very much fun and entertainment below everything MAXXED out.
    If, ofc, you need to compensate some other issues, a credit card might buy you that 20 inch GS you are pursuing.
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  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    you buy from me 17x99 resonance stones -> you loose your AD -> I get AD -> no AD sink (in my opinion)

    It's a sink. The AH takes a 10% cut from the sale, and those AD disappear.
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  • lewstelamon01lewstelamon01 Member Posts: 7,415 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    vedran541 wrote: »
    Maybe to you its not an AD sink, but for me its a big black hole of AD thats needs to be filled but never will be. Each mod they release new items/artifacts that costs so much AD to obtain. I get no sense of accomplishment when its not earned but bought.
    Also with mod4/mod5 they started giving items more then 1 enchantment slot. Even more AD that needs to be filled each mod. They are making it impossible for players to keep up with the games progression.

    New players will never in their life catch up to the old players. I know players that played since beta that still dont have all rank 10s + legendaries, simply because they didn't buy AD. With more money needed to gear up i definitely think they are going the wrong direction because there is no way to make AD by playing the game.

    Sometimes i wonder if they purposely drive people away from their game because their servers are to slim to handle a bigger player base. Or why they are doing these things to their players.

    I still wont give up until a DEV answers me on how im supposed to make 25+ million AD every 2 months. Because if they release new gear every two months they clearly want their players, and expect their players, to have the BiS gear by the end of a module, or else there is no reason for new gear.

    A dev isn't going to answer you on that, because the players have that quite well covered.
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  • beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    vedran541 wrote: »
    I still wont give up until a DEV answers me on how im supposed to make 25+ million AD every 2 months. Because if they release new gear every two months they clearly want their players, and expect their players, to have the BiS gear by the end of a module, or else there is no reason for new gear.

    I think maybe there's some intention that people will skip the gear some mods, not needing to collect every single item just because it exists. Some of it will be sidegrades. Some of it not quite enough of an improvement to scrap what you already have. Some of it just won't be appealing for some builds. Etc.

    I also think that there was a lot more intent that artifact gear would be a long-term project that grows with you, not something to sit down and refine for 8-10 hours straight so it can be day-one orange.

    I also think that there is a lot of disconnect between dev intent and how many people actually approach their gear.
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  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I also think that there is a lot of disconnect between dev intent and how many people actually approach their gear.

    QFT 10char
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  • f2pmaf2pma Member Posts: 665 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    i remember times when bots were more dangerous then todays new lvl 60
    but it is what it is its only going to get way worse .
    in a year 15 gs players are going to be viable in pvp like todays 8gs
  • luxarkluxark Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I also think that there was a lot more intent that artifact gear would be a long-term project that grows with you, not something to sit down and refine for 8-10 hours straight so it can be day-one orange.

    Well, then it was completely wrong implemented. You get those artifact-items WAYS too late for a concept like that.
    I am totally happy with my 8 toons @ approx 16k-18k GS. Mostly rank 7s, mostly purple artifacts.
    I do not feel the need to have everything at MAX. If you choose to have everything at MAX this is, imho, your problem.
    The game can be very much fun and entertainment below everything MAXXED out.

    Seriously, you have 8 (!) characters at 16-18k GS. That is more than one character at MAX. Your actually a bit false-faced in that matter, sorry to tell you that.
  • nameexpirednameexpired Member Posts: 1,282 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    vedran541 wrote: »
    I know players that played since beta that still dont have all rank 10s + legendaries, simply because they didn't buy AD. With more money needed to gear up i definitely think they are going the wrong direction because there is no way to make AD by playing the game.
    Yes, there is a way to make AD. It is 24k per day per character, and if you sell the unbound items from your DD runs you can make more AD. Playing since beta, I have mostly R7s and a few R8. I don't NEED R10's. and neither should you. Way too little bang for their buck. In my opinion.
    luxark wrote: »
    Seriously, you have 8 (!) characters at 16-18k GS. That is more than one character at MAX. Your actually a bit false-faced in that matter, sorry to tell you that.
    I made AD during the Gond event by buying these purple Z plans from the Z store and selling them on the AH for double price
    I made AD by buying and selling artifact belts when they were new,
    I bought quite a few R7s when they were cheaper.
    I never bought gear, I always sold unbound T1/T2 gear and waited for a drop from the chest.
    Imho it's easy to make AD if you are a bit dedicated, have patience and - most importantly - are a member of a guild or at least play within the legit community. But I don't make 25m every 2 weeks.
    You won't make AD by spending immediately every little bit that you scrape together. You need reserves if you want to be more flexible.
    Forget RNG from lockboxes or sets, buy things from the AH. Way cheaper in the long run.

    I never exploited.
    OK, 2x I made Karru campfire runs - but that was before legit, and only because I PuG'ed back then and was more or less forced to comply or go back to 60m queuing. And once I was in a party in ToS where we kind of killed Sindrith from outside. I hated that. Totally boring!

    I get to 16k with R7s, Arties and a T2 set, and boons. Getting a regular arti to purple is not so expensive. I sometimes use potions, the ones that vanish on death.
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  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Imho it's easy to make AD if you are a bit dedicated, have patience and - most importantly - are a member of a guild or at least play within the legit community. But I don't make 25m every 2 weeks.

    All very good pieces of advice.

    But you'll never convince someone who thinks they're entitled to the best stuff in the game as soon as it launches of any of it.

    Generating wealth in this game is more about patience and dedication, not "get rich quick".
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  • luxarkluxark Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    ironzerg79 wrote: »
    Generating wealth in this game is more about patience and dedication, not "get rich quick".

    The problem ist, that you wont get "rich" by playing normal. Not for hours a day, not for several dungeonruns per day, not every single daily per day, stuff like that.

    Lets say, you do the most important campaign dailys and maybe a dungeon after that. You won't even be able to do any campaign task immediately after it gets avaivable because of missing AD.
    The only reason i manage it at the moment on a single character is, because i run three characters with Leadership around 15 each at the moment and there are four more to come. And you cannot expect from everyone to use other characters to support their maincharacter, because it is a dumb concept.
    That is also pretty weird from a RPG-Point-Of-View. But, well, NWO is far away from an RPG anyways.

    What i want to say: This game makes it pretty hard to advance with pure gameplay if you do not play several hours per day. And it is advancement that motivates to keep playing the game because of the game.
  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    luxark wrote: »
    What i want to say: This game makes it pretty hard to advance with pure gameplay if you do not play several hours per day. And it is advancement that motivates to keep playing the game because of the game.

    You can get every single piece of gear you need to complete every single piece of PvE content simply from drops in the dungeons.

    How is that not advancing with "pure gameplay"?

    Try to answer that without including the letters "PvP" in your response, because I'm tired of hearing that complaint in a discussion related to PvE.
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  • magiquepursemagiquepurse Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    ironzerg79 wrote: »
    You can get every single piece of gear you need to complete every single piece of PvE content simply from drops in the dungeons.

    How is that not advancing with "pure gameplay"?

    Try to answer that without including the letters "PvP" in your response, because I'm tired of hearing that complaint in a discussion related to PvE.

    This whole topic is pretty much about PvP-only, to be honest. The OP is a rank 10/legendaries PvP CW, from a PvP guild. Nobody cares about being BiS for PvE, it's not like you will suffer if you do 1 million less damage, yet you still clear the dragon.

    The situation changes drastically in regards to PvP however, where getting this gear to max is really important.

    Now, the "normal gameplay". Will it make you rich? No tricks such as 50 leadership alts, opening lockboxes to sell, playing AH and watching trade channel and so on. This is NOT normal gameplay.

    So what is Normal Gameplay then?

    It is either running dungeons (where the raids at??? No, Tiamat is just a glorified HE) or PvP.

    These activities are highly unrewarding. Soloing CN brought me 100K AD. Really??? Doing PvP only? Well you are screwed. You won't get any AD from it, you cannot sell anything, you will be poor forever.

    My suggestion is to move the passive/cheeky means of generating AD that I enumerated above, and reward the legit gameplay instead.
  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    This whole topic is pretty much about PvP-only, to be honest.

    But you and I both know the solution to PvP doesn't lie in finding a way for people to make 25 million AD a week so they can all be in Legendaries with R10 and Perfect enchants, so in a way, this discussion isn't relevant.

    There's no way for your average player to stay competitive in PvP, unlike PvE. The entire PvP system is broken.
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  • magiquepursemagiquepurse Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    ironzerg79 wrote: »
    But you and I both know the solution to PvP doesn't lie in finding a way for people to make 25 million AD a week so they can all be in Legendaries with R10 and Perfect enchants, so in a way, this discussion isn't relevant.

    There's no way for your average player to stay competitive in PvP, unlike PvE. The entire PvP system is broken.

    Yes, that is true, yet I suspect it is broken on purpose, based on cold, harsh statistical data and calculations that the guys responsible for book-keeping at PWE do, to see what benefits their company financial more. I suspect player dissatisfaction and unhappiness is factored into the big picture as well.

    So until they start thinking long-term, and try to substantially improve their players' condition, we will have to find ways to get geared for PvP, or become irrelevant...
  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    So until they start thinking long-term, and try to substantially improve their players' condition, we will have to find ways to get geared for PvP, or become irrelevant...

    I'm being completely honest and sincere here. If they don't change something with PvP, and that's your main thing...I would look at other options.

    I'm a serious PvEer/casual PvPer, and you know I'm frustrated with the current set up. I can't imagine how someone who wants to do nothing but PvP feels.
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  • magiquepursemagiquepurse Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    ironzerg79 wrote: »
    I'm being completely honest and sincere here. If they don't change something with PvP, and that's your main thing...I would look at other options.

    I'm a serious PvEer/casual PvPer, and you know I'm frustrated with the current set up. I can't imagine how someone who wants to do nothing but PvP feels.

    Just to be clear, I have nothing against PvE at all, I was a progression raider in WoW in Vanilla, TBC and Cata.

    I just want PvE that requires skillful execution, communication and is rewarding enough for the great challenge it poses, i.e. raiding or very hard dungeons.

    The reason I started to do PvP 99% was that there was no challenge in PvE anymore and all I did was countless CN runs, so I got burned out badly. Nothing in M3-4 was good enough to warrant more than a few runs, although I did farm LoL/shores for a few weeks in an attempt to get some nice items, but had to give up since it was not worth my time.

    So there it is, PvP because it is still challenging. Sadly it offers no rewards and you still need PvE to do well in PvP. PvE should be attractive enough in itself, without the need to force people in it.
  • nameexpirednameexpired Member Posts: 1,282 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I just want PvE that requires skillful execution, communication and is rewarding enough for the great challenge it poses, i.e. raiding or very hard dungeons.
    I guess in a f2p model the most prominent target player is the casual player, and there you won't find a lot of your wanted challenges.
    I would not play this game if I needed voice, 3 hours of constant play and a 30ms connection in order to have a chance at the, e.g. MC off hand. And I guess there are more of the casual players around than players that can dedicate 3 hours of time én block.
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  • magiquepursemagiquepurse Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I guess in a f2p model the most prominent target player is the casual player, and there you won't find a lot of your wanted challenges.
    I would not play this game if I needed voice, 3 hours of constant play and a 30ms connection in order to have a chance at the, e.g. MC off hand. And I guess there are more of the casual players around than players that can dedicate 3 hours of time én block.

    Being a casual is ALL FINE.

    Casuals should have lots of fun doing casual stuff, and get good gear and fluff as rewards. They should not be discarded as an audience by all means.

    However.

    A hardcore, dedicated player that knows all the intricacies of the game and so on should definitely have content that is tailored to increase his fun&experience in the game.

    What this means is that there should be more difficulties, with increasingly better rewards. A casual doesn't need legendaries to clear Normal mode dungeons. A casual doesn't want to spend 3 hours wiping in a raid, but they might wanna see it anyway.

    So make an EZYMODE version of the raid that drops gear that's a bit worse than the normal version.

    This way, all types of players are happy.
  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Wildstar tried to aim their game at the hardcore raiders, and it's going down as one of the single biggest failures of all time in the MMO space...

    I guess casuals pay the bills, right?
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  • rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited November 2014
    ironzerg79 wrote: »
    Wildstar tried to aim their game at the hardcore raiders, and it's going down as one of the single biggest failures of all time in the MMO space...

    I guess casuals pay the bills, right?

    There is a big big spectrum between making your game incredibly difficult that guilds need 40-man rosters active at the same time to do these incredibly difficult raids versus a game with no endgame except dailies and heroic encounters that people just AFK on.

    Let's try to aim for a game that doesn't focus on either end of the spectrum shall we?
  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    There is a big big spectrum between making your game incredibly difficult that guilds need 40-man rosters active at the same time to do these incredibly difficult raids versus a game with no endgame except dailies and heroic encounters that people just AFK on.

    Let's try to aim for a game that doesn't focus on either end of the spectrum shall we?

    Which I think Neverwinter does.

    Not everyone is walking around with 20k GS, Legendary weapons, R10's and perfect enchants.

    For your middle of the road player, dungeons like CN, VT, and epic SoT and LoL are still pretty challenging.
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  • magiquepursemagiquepurse Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    ironzerg79 wrote: »
    Wildstar tried to aim their game at the hardcore raiders, and it's going down as one of the single biggest failures of all time in the MMO space...

    I guess casuals pay the bills, right?

    I didn't play it, but from what I understand, the game didn't approach raiding properly, by making players go through long attunements, basically to prolong content.

    In that other MMo, casuals can raid too in LFR mode and get some nice stuff, while the more dedicate--->hardcore people have progressive difficulties to run through with better rewards.

    It is the correct approach IMO.
  • rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited November 2014
    ironzerg79 wrote: »
    Which I think Neverwinter does.

    Not everyone is walking around with 20k GS, Legendary weapons, R10's and perfect enchants.

    For your middle of the road player, dungeons like CN, VT, and epic SoT and LoL are still pretty challenging.

    Disagree.

    The endgame at the moment is almost non-existent for PVE/PVP.

    Unless you count dailies and heroic encounters as endgame content
  • luxarkluxark Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    What this means is that there should be more difficulties, with increasingly better rewards. A casual doesn't need legendaries to clear Normal mode dungeons. A casual doesn't want to spend 3 hours wiping in a raid, but they might wanna see it anyway.

    So make an EZYMODE version of the raid that drops gear that's a bit worse than the normal version.

    This way, all types of players are happy.

    Your forgetting that a casual is not automatically a bad player. I remember times in WoW, where we cleared AQ40, part of Naxx and the entire first Addon with a ton of casuals in our raids. And they could hold their own share.

    I for one want hard content, but useable in a reasonable timeframe. No one needs a five-hour dungeon, for example. Just make it five different dungeons.

    One of my mainproblems is, like mentioned, that iam not able to advance in a reasonable timeframe. It seems to me that i would need to play for hours daily or using tons of alts with leadership just to support a single character.
  • nameexpirednameexpired Member Posts: 1,282 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    A hardcore, dedicated player that knows all the intricacies of the game and so on should definitely have content that is tailored to increase his fun&experience in the game.
    I would guess that you are no longer within the target clientele of development ressources.
    You have all that there is, you have beaten the game. You won't spend any more $ on Z to get AD as you already have all the AD that you ever could want.
    It is much better from an economy point of view to create ToD which is also available to players below 10k.
    That's not what you want to hear, but is much more likely the way it is.
    Creating & upgrading content, testing, reserving hardware for an small elite group? Not worth it, sorry. Not in f2p.
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  • magiquepursemagiquepurse Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I would guess that you are no longer within the target clientele of development ressources.
    You have all that there is, you have beaten the game. You won't spend any more $ on Z to get AD as you already have all the AD that you ever could want.
    It is much better from an economy point of view to create ToD which is also available to players below 10k.
    That's not what you want to hear, but is much more likely the way it is.
    Creating & upgrading content, testing, reserving hardware for an small elite group? Not worth it, sorry. Not in f2p.

    The model you describing will never attract publicity and streamers to show off their stuff at the game.

    It's a sad model for a game that should be a deluxe product considering the great IPs behind it.
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