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  • vedran541vedran541 Member Posts: 199 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    pointsman wrote: »
    For 99% of the content of this game, you don't need Rank 10's or legendaries.

    This 99% includes *low-level* and *mid-level* PVP.

    Only that 1% of tippy-top-end PVP requires absolute BIS gear. And for that, there's the credit card.

    Well that 99% of players that play PvE that you say is decreasing very quickly and people that play PvP is increasing, simply because PvE has no challenge.
  • damnataanimusdamnataanimus Member Posts: 446 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    vedran541 wrote: »
    Well that 99% of players that play PvE that you say is decreasing very quickly and people that play PvP is increasing, simply because PvE has no challenge.

    And where is the evidence of this? Proof please or what you say has no real meaning. Fact : 99% of facts are made up. And yes I did just make that up. If anything the amount of people who pvp are decreasing simply due to the matchamaking, glyphs and class balance. Its no fun for anyone getting killed in 1 rotation if that.
    May the RNG Gods smile on you today!
    Adorable Temptress - 23.4k Temptation SW
    Mara Angelbane - 22k Thaum CW, Vaya Con Dios 15.2k Dragon CW.
    Mara Shadowskiss - 21.5k Destroyer GWF, Mara - 17.2k Sentinel GWF
    Mara Duskwalker - 15.4k Healing DC
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    Mara Shadowstouch,Maara - TR's
  • vedran541vedran541 Member Posts: 199 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    And where is the evidence of this? Proof please or what you say has no real meaning. Fact : 99% of facts are made up. And yes I did just make that up.

    Well he was the one that came up with the percentage. Im simply saying that less and less people are playing PvE and more and more are playing PvP because they got decked out and want a challenge. I know from my friends list and i know a lot of PvPers that came from PvE.

    But this thread really dosent concern pure PvE/rp/d&d/whatever players or people farming their dailies for fun. Since they dont care about the situation, gear inflation, power creep, new players never catching up, etc. stay out of the thread.
  • luxarkluxark Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    pointsman wrote: »
    Only that 1% of tippy-top-end PVP requires absolute BIS gear. And for that, there's the credit card.

    Even Gear with only like Rank 8-9s and "pre-BiS-gear" is nearly impossible to achieve before it gets "useless" from the next one or two modules (and thus is not that good anymore), if you are not playing for 2+ hours per day.
    And that is not because you are not able to run a dungeon or two and do your dailys, it is because of the ridiculous amounts of AD you need to reach meaningful gear in time.
    You are basically forced to have some way to farm "passive" AD, like having 12 toons with leadership or working the AH. But that is not exactly my defintion of a "game".
    Iam a pretty new player and I personally do not want to worry all the time about AD. But Neverwinter forces me to do so in order to advance. It forces me to do some dumb dailys for RAD or doing dungeon to sell items in order to let me actually advance in those campaigns or get stuff i need to upgrade my gear.
  • mrgiggles651mrgiggles651 Member Posts: 790 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    vedran541 wrote: »
    Well that 99% of players that play PvE that you say is decreasing very quickly and people that play PvP is increasing, simply because PvE has no challenge.
    "Hi Reddit! My name is Ryan and I am the Product Manager for Neverwinter. AMA!" says PvP is small, unless you're Russian.
    http://www.reddit.com/r/Neverwinter/comments/2kphsw/hi_reddit_my_name_is_ryan_and_i_am_the_product/clnji5t
    I wasted five million AD promoting the Foundry.
  • vedran541vedran541 Member Posts: 199 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    "Hi Reddit! My name is Ryan and I am the Product Manager for Neverwinter. AMA!" says PvP is small, unless you're Russian.
    http://www.reddit.com/r/Neverwinter/comments/2kphsw/hi_reddit_my_name_is_ryan_and_i_am_the_product/clnji5t

    Yes PvP community is small, i never said anything else. I only said that more and more players are switching over to PvP, you cant really deny that. Alot of current PvP players are former PvE players as well, you cant really deny that either. That was my whole point. And players are switching from PvE to PvP because of no real PvE challenge.
  • rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited November 2014
    vedran541 wrote: »
    Yes PvP community is small, i never said anything else. I only said that more and more players are switching over to PvP, you cant really deny that. Alot of current PvP players are former PvE players as well, you cant really deny that either. That was my whole point. And players are switching from PvE to PvP because of no real PvE challenge.

    Well the thing is, PVE right now does a horrible job at retaining players because there is nothing to do in endgame PVE.
  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    The difference between having all R10's in power versus all R9's is about a 1.3% increase in overall damage. R10s versus R8s is 2.6%.

    An extra 4 R10's over 4 R8's will get you an extra 1.3% of damage.

    Both those assume you already have over 8000 power.

    If 1-2% isn't making a difference for anyone.

    And yes, Power DOES diminish, just not in an obvious way. Each x% of power is an increase in the BASE damage of your powers, not your overall damage.

    So if people really feel like they need to spend 10 or 20 million AD for an extra ~1% damage, then that's their decision.

    But ultimately it's insignificant.

    Won't stop people from crying about it, though.
    "Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
    i7TZDZK.gif?1
  • luxarkluxark Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    It is not only Rank 10s you have to pay for. You could also mention legendary artifacts. Or weapon- and armorenhancements. And this does not get easier with the next module.
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Honestly, there´s absolutely no need to have R10s except maybe in top-level PvP. My HR main is decked in R8s and still has some way to go on her companions and artifacts (level 85-88 atm), but I can easily do all PvE content in the game.
    My Temptation Warlock is decked in R6s and I can run eLoL and eSoT with her and not be a burden to the party.

    I just got my Artifact Weapon to Legendary and I thinking about whether I should put an R7 or R8 in the new slot, R10 is simply out of question as it is not worth the investment. Buying a belt and bringing it to legendary is currently far cheaper and much more effective than upgrading 3-4 R8s to R10s.

    By the way I´d rather spend my money for something unique than for 80 points more in power. This summer I bought 20k zen in one shot to get the Lord´s Armoured Polar Bear and I would do that again for something similar. I could have sold it for 10kk ad or more and upgraded 4 R8s to R10 but for what reason? I´d rather see it every day when I play, than do 1% more damage to mobs and bosses I can already beat.

    If they would open a fashion shop where I can pre-view transmute items before buying them, I´ll for sure open my wallet. I would do that immediately for a white dye which is still missing or for a real white dye pack, not something light grey-ish or like the white dragon dye I currently use on my SW (which is white and red).

    On the other hand I love what they are doing with the new offhand offering a chance to customize passives and roll stats (especially now that re-rolling costs will be reduced).
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • pointsmanpointsman Member Posts: 2,327 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Honestly, there´s absolutely no need to have R10s except maybe in top-level PvP. My HR main is decked in R8s and still has some way to go on her companions and artifacts (level 85-88 atm), but I can easily do all PvE content in the game.
    My Temptation Warlock is decked in R6s and I can run eLoL and eSoT with her and not be a burden to the party.

    I just got my Artifact Weapon to Legendary and I thinking about whether I should put an R7 or R8 in the new slot, R10 is simply out of question as it is not worth the investment. Buying a belt and bringing it to legendary is currently far cheaper and much more effective than upgrading 3-4 R8s to R10s.

    By the way I´d rather spend my money for something unique than for 80 points more in power. This summer I bought 20k zen in one shot to get the Lord´s Armoured Polar Bear and I would do that again for something similar. I could have sold it for 10kk ad or more and upgraded 4 R8s to R10 but for what reason? I´d rather see it every day when I play, than do 1% more damage to mobs and bosses I can already beat.

    If they would open a fashion shop where I can pre-view transmute items before buying them, I´ll for sure open my wallet. I would do that immediately for a white dye which is still missing or for a real white dye pack, not something light grey-ish or like the white dragon dye I currently use on my SW (which is white and red).

    On the other hand I love what they are doing with the new offhand offering a chance to customize passives and roll stats (especially now that re-rolling costs will be reduced).

    I agree.

    I am currently working on upgrading all of my enchants to R9's. After that, I'm done. There is no point to R10's.
  • magiquepursemagiquepurse Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    The point of Rank 10s is that (if you do premade-level PvP) you will fight against a team with even the Utility slots with Rank 10s. After you go head to head with one or two of them and you die while they survive at 1% HP, you'd really wanted you had that +800-1000 HP and 300 Power. If you think this situation is not happening often, you're wrong.

    All in all, the numbers accumulate. The more slots the gear will have, the bigger the difference from 9s to 10s.

    It's already a huge burden to level another 2-3 artifact to legendary and get the rolls on the OH. The new slots on rings are entirely uncalled for.
  • jaotutjaotut Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 576 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Well let's not just talk about R10s or R8s, what we have right now is already discouraging people to play multiple characters for end game PvP. It already cost a ton right now in mod 4 to get weapon and belts legendary, comes mod 5 you can forget about gearing up more than 1 char.
    Merlin - CW Merlyn - HR Psylocke - TR Black Widow - GWF


    Have the gear and skills, but lack the friends to play with? Come and apply for Essence of Aggression. We have been here and strong since beta. (Immature, rude, and arrogant people will not be accepted)
  • pointsmanpointsman Member Posts: 2,327 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    The point of Rank 10s is that (if you do premade-level PvP) you will fight against a team with even the Utility slots with Rank 10s. After you go head to head with one or two of them and you die while they survive at 1% HP, you'd really wanted you had that +800-1000 HP and 300 Power. If you think this situation is not happening often, you're wrong.

    All in all, the numbers accumulate. The more slots the gear will have, the bigger the difference from 9s to 10s.

    It's already a huge burden to level another 2-3 artifact to legendary and get the rolls on the OH. The new slots on rings are entirely uncalled for.

    Even if your scenario is accurate (which I doubt happens more than maybe a few times), there are about a million other reasons why you died and your opponent survived with 1% HP other than "I had *only* rank 9's and not rank 10's". How about timing of your rotation? Timing of your dodges? Timing of your opponents' rotation and dodges? Environmental hazards? What your teammates did or did not do? These are much more significant.

    Rank 10's are highly overrated.

    And besides, your opponents are in the same boat as you.

    And if you don't want the 2-slot rings, then don't get them. They don't have tenacity anyway.
  • magiquepursemagiquepurse Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    pointsman wrote: »
    And if you don't want the 2-slot rings, then don't get them. They don't have tenacity anyway.

    2 def 2 off slots on the rings and huge stats. Compare to 6% Tenacity and meh stats, with 1 def/1 off slots?

    The close fights happen more often than you think, and you don't want to be at a disadvantage. I already play with 200-300 ping and get rubberbanded back in CCs many times vs players with 5-30 ping from NA, I don't want to have everything stacked against me.

    The overall idea is that they introducing too many sinks, as described, 2-3 more artifacts to make legendary, cube rolling, 4 more enchant slots to fill, new profession, all of this after we just made 5 artifacts legendary.

    Too **** much.
  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    So then how much of PvP is skill, and how much is gear?

    If it's 100% gear, then that 1% is 1%. If it's 50/50, then that 1% is only 0.5% of the equation.
    "Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
    i7TZDZK.gif?1
  • jondbxjondbx Member Posts: 179 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    gcut123 wrote: »
    Well you don't have to do all those things, you can just play it slow and enjoy the game for its dailies.

    There is no hurry

    There is no rush

    There is no need to be upset.

    You left out "There is no PVP". Because unless you keep up, you can't compete. It's as simple as that.
  • jondbxjondbx Member Posts: 179 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    pointsman wrote: »
    Rank 10's are highly overrated.

    If you think so then convince the dev's to cap enchants at rank 8 for PVP. Let us know how that goes.
  • frishterfrishter Member Posts: 3,522 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    ironzerg79 wrote: »
    So then how much of PvP is skill, and how much is gear?

    If it's 100% gear, then that 1% is 1%. If it's 50/50, then that 1% is only 0.5% of the equation.

    Personally I'd say since it's highly gear dependant that is a huge flaw upon itself. And really, top gear is something to be worked towards, not expected as a requirement. Again I'll repeat that I agree there's too much ad 'requirements' and not enough enough to farm it.
  • rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited November 2014
    frishter wrote: »
    Personally I'd say since it's highly gear dependant that is a huge flaw upon itself. And really, top gear is something to be worked towards, not expected as a requirement. Again I'll repeat that I agree there's too much ad 'requirements' and not enough enough to farm it.

    The big problem is, there is no good and challenging PVE content to farm and use the shiny new gear on.

    Everyone loves shiny new gear, but when these new artifacts are introduced along with a joke of an unrewarding encounter known as Tiamat, you begin to wonder why they even introduce new gear.

    Devs, the higher tiered gear you introduce, you have to balance it with challenging PVE content that rewards accordingly. The direction for the past few modules was not the case.
  • frishterfrishter Member Posts: 3,522 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    The big problem is, there is no good and challenging PVE content to farm and use the shiny new gear on.

    Everyone loves shiny new gear, but when these new artifacts are introduced along with a joke of an unrewarding encounter known as Tiamat, you begin to wonder why they even introduce new gear.

    Devs, the higher tiered gear you introduce, you have to balance it with challenging PVE content that rewards accordingly. The direction for the past few modules was not the case.

    Absolutely, and the fact that there's not good and challenging PVE content also makes it hard to farm AD along with BoP and low drop rates and so getting that gear is pretty tricky. It's pretty silly that now for the main way to earn AD, as long as you're in it for the long term, I'd recommend levelling up multiple l20 leaderships at once whereas I'd used to say farm CN and you can in time afford whatever you want. Because I'm working on leadership #19-#28 new gear doesn't phase me so much, I can afford it and am in no rush to get legendaries right away even if I could. I understand those that fear it though as if i started playing 6 months later I'd be overwhelmed feeling incapable of ever catching up to the average high gs player, never mind maxing things out.

    But yes they've released so much gs more than content that actually needed it, it's insane. If they release heroic versions in mod 6, that would be a way to control the inflation as there's not really much more they can do to over-inflate it further without repeating the mistake of going overboard again.

    They could also release a new version of CN, but heroic versions could give us a lot of content to keep busy with. Right now what keeps me busy is dailies. That is not really what I want to keep busy with.
  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    frishter wrote: »
    Personally I'd say since it's highly gear dependant that is a huge flaw upon itself. And really, top gear is something to be worked towards, not expected as a requirement. Again I'll repeat that I agree there's too much ad 'requirements' and not enough enough to farm it.

    I agree. If PvP is so gear dependent that the difference of 1% means always losing, then none of this really matters. But that would also explain why virtually no one PvP's on the Dragon server. If my skill doesn't really factor into the equation, and it's all about gear, where's the fun in that?

    I want to beat another person becomes I'm a better player, not because I have 1% more power on my character sheet than them.
    "Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
    i7TZDZK.gif?1
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    ironzerg79 wrote: »
    I agree. If PvP is so gear dependent that the difference of 1% means always losing, then none of this really matters. But that would also explain why virtually no one PvP's on the Dragon server. If my skill doesn't really factor into the equation, and it's all about gear, where's the fun in that?

    I want to beat another person becomes I'm a better player, not because I have 1% more power on my character sheet than them.

    Honestly my feeling is that PvP is small because most players are casuals and PvP requires much more focus, time investment and practice than the average NWO player is gonna put in the game.
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • luxarkluxark Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Honestly my feeling is that PvP is small because most players are casuals and PvP requires much more focus, time investment and practice than the average NWO player is gonna put in the game.

    Or interested people get discouraged if they have no realistic change to do anything useful in their first few games.
    And "practice"? Pvp in this game is pretty simple. No idea what you want to practice there. First of all it is the gear that decides, who is going to win. After that comes the classes. And THEN maybe actual skill.
  • frishterfrishter Member Posts: 3,522 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Honestly my feeling is that PvP is small because most players are casuals and PvP requires much more focus, time investment and practice than the average NWO player is gonna put in the game.

    The fact that their first pvp matches get them totally wrecked probably is one thing that puts them off.
  • rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited November 2014
    Honestly my feeling is that PvP is small because most players are casuals and PvP requires much more focus, time investment and practice than the average NWO player is gonna put in the game.

    The problem is, the hardcore community IS the PVP community. This is because there is nothing worthwhile or challenging to do PVE.

    Being in a premade fighting other premades is probably the most challenging but tactical aspect of the game....at least its better than afking in front of dragons or doing dailies.

    I do hope that they make new content that aren't exclusively aimed at casual players because there are already enough dailies and heroic encounters that no one cares about. PVP maps and modes are just another direction they can go to that IS replayable.
  • jondbxjondbx Member Posts: 179 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    ironzerg79 wrote: »
    I agree. If PvP is so gear dependent that the difference of 1% means always losing, then none of this really matters. But that would also explain why virtually no one PvP's on the Dragon server. If my skill doesn't really factor into the equation, and it's all about gear, where's the fun in that?

    I want to beat another person becomes I'm a better player, not because I have 1% more power on my character sheet than them.

    Well you can, you need to be a better player and have the BiS gear.

    It's not much different in the real world. Your not going to do auto racing with a mini van and expect to win against an indy car no matter how good your skills are.
  • jondbxjondbx Member Posts: 179 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Honestly, there´s absolutely no need to have R10s except maybe in top-level PvP.

    Let me stop you right there. The OP is talking about top-level PvP and the fact that they keep making it more and more expensive to be on par. Likewise it's becoming near impossible to gear up more than 1 character for top end pvp.
  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    jondbx wrote: »
    Let me stop you right there. The OP is talking about top-level PvP and the fact that they keep making it more and more expensive to be on par. Likewise it's becoming near impossible to gear up more than 1 character for top end pvp.

    Let me stop you right there. The top-level PvP community is so crazy tiny that the devs aren't going to change their plans because it negatively affects 0.00001% of the population.

    Again, if it's "near impossible" to compete because of a 1% difference in stats between two characters, something is horribly wrong with the system to begin with.
    "Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
    i7TZDZK.gif?1
  • luxarkluxark Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    jondbx wrote: »
    Well you can, you need to be a better player and have the BiS gear.

    Which basically locks most of the playerbase out from an actual fun pvp-experience.
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