Reguarding offhands:
To me the only ones completely underwhelming to someone already using those passives are Ferocious Reaction and Enduring Warrior, which are also coincidentally the only ones related to healing.
Though I don't know who is actually using enduring warrior... so that one is almost a throwaway in the first place.
The Ferocious Reaction bonus is an extra 2 to 3k heal every 3 minutes? So rare it would matter and so rare it is used. (Though I read it is bugged on test at the moment). Enduring Warrior bonus is an underwhelming extra bit of healing at the rate the ability procs.
I break complicated decisions into "admissible" and "inadmissible". The admissible choices are the ones where there is a case for them being used in realistic situations/scenarios. The inadmissible choices are the ones where there is no realistic case where you should use it given an alternative. Those two bonus passives stand out as me as "inadmissible" meaning nobody should use them ever given an alternative choice. The rest strike me as admissible.
However for now let's get this ball rolling in the right direction, how does everybody feel about the GF's ATM?
What aspects do you feel your character is excelling in?
What areas need to be improved?
Presently, I enjoy playing GF.
I'd say she (protector) excels at taking the hits (especially if there's a good DC).
Improvements?
Build threat better without resorting to KV (I like the arti off-hand buff to combat superiority)
Bring AP gain back to SoS (you can negate the gain from SoS itself, but allow us to gain AP from our encounters and at-wills during its duration, please)
Teach CWs, HRs, and SWs not to attack until after the GF has pulled and controlled the playing field. Otherwise, it becomes like herding cats and someone's gonna die.
I run near 50 E.lol on weekend i just pushed my self to the best possible dps and focused on killing adds my score was always the lowest.
1 run 10-20 kills so agan i say its total usless even with those buffs .
But i realy like your last comment :
+1 awesome feedback .
Next week suggestion :to change those offhand bonuses to usefull features.
Cuz exept one all are terrible.
Few ideas:
Guarded Assault : now also mark your affected attacker .
Combat Superiority : now give you 5 % more crit chance.
Steel Defense : now give you 2 sec more immunity.
Steel Blitz: increase the chance to 5%
The only suggestion I don't like is for combat superiority. I think allowing it to build threat is an excellent idea, especially for GFs who largely run without KV. Enforced Threat can only do so much, even when tied with Threatening Rush.
damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
edited October 2014
I've been speaking with a few GF players, who don't use the forums, in-game about their thoughts on our class and I wanted to share some of their thoughts and perspectives here with you too.
"I think it fits it's role really well now compared to the last two mods. But it's role is a tank and a lot of the game mechanics don't require or encourage use of a tank in higher level groups."
"I really like the new block mechanic, that works well."
"Path wise, I feel like the conqurer's damage has never been the same since they changed the mechanic away from 2x strength bonus, but I know the problem is block + high dps is very overpowered."
"Honestly, they are pretty good where they are at. I could selfishly request a few changes (like shorter cooldown times on some skills), but it would unbalance them more than balance them."
"I don't really want to see the GF morphing into a buff bot type of thing though (althought KC armor favorted that (and Stalwart at one point))."
"Maybe more of a leader role (if you look at traditional D&D). But I don't know what classes PWE has in teh works or when they will be released."
"Maybe making some of the daily powers more group helpful (like fighter's recovery also applies to your entire team (at 50% effectiveness) or having Villian's Menance grant everyone with temporary immunity from control powers within a certain range (and maybe a slight buff as well). Anyway, GFs gain dailies really fast (faster in high GS groups), so using those as the medium to share with others makes a lot of sense to me (and should be rougly ok PVP wise)."
"KV is another good for low level group skill in low level dungeons, but in new content high GS groups, lifesteal makes up for party damage, so absorbing some doesn't help anyone (and gets you dead)"
"I used to love SoS, but I don't run it anymore. I am not up on the changes for it, but one day it just felt like it was only dealing about 50% dps and I dropped it."
"If I have to do a 180 turn, to block something, my attack usually takes precident & I end up blocking the direction from which I came."
I'd be happy if there were no changes at all. The class rocks if you know how to play it.
If you want paingiver charts play GWF. Some players don't understand the concept of support class and class diversity. In the LFG channel, loads of groups specifically ask for GF-far more than they ask for GWF.
I just had to say it.
I'm really worried KV and into the fray are going to get trashed because of the whiners.
Venril Sathir- CW
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
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vinceent1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,264Arc User
edited October 2014
i wish ITF and KV be trashed. i rather use bull rush or anvil of doom , than be a buff bot :-O
dont want to be guardian buffbot, want to be guardian FIGHTER
I'd be happy if there were no changes at all. The class rocks if you know how to play it.
If you want paingiver charts play GWF. Some players don't understand the concept of support class and class diversity. In the LFG channel, loads of groups specifically ask for GF-far more than they ask for GWF.
I just had to say it.
I'm really worried KV and into the fray are going to get trashed because of the whiners.
^^
There are no whinners.There are three (3) people in the forums ,i repeat three(3) that don't like ITF/KV.These are Gfs..lol.
I play with legit community ,i never saw one person there arguing about itf/kv.i pug a lot ,i mean a lot for skirmishes /t2.I never saw one complain.
Actually quite the opposite.They complain if YOU DO NOT USE KV/ITF.
ITF and KV are godsend to us .And said they were buffed by the leading designer of NW,Crush.
And now we have some people (3) that don't like it.
Cause ...."we are buffbots...
Lol
I did some runs in PK last night wearing my rusted old Knight captain set(the worst choise for DPS-it increases the dps of your party but not your own)).Just at 16,2 gs.My rotation?
Enforced Threat KV ITF.Crushing Surge/Wapon Master Strike.Dailies Villan's and Terrifying Impact.In all runs i was second paingiver and in one thierd but i was dced.
The meaning is you can enjoy GF even he is a buffbot.
Why these people complaIN?Cause they don't want to be buff bots.So they want more dps?Another proposition from the same people "Remove CA from Mark it makes positioning easy" LMAO!!!!! CA=15%+ damage.Another godsend feauture we have.
And yet some pleople want us not to be "buffbots" but also not to have CA =means less damage.
So what these people want?
Use you logic.
They want to NERF the GF.They don't play GF as main they play CW/GWFS.The bitter truth.
Feedback: Mark as in current form is great.-20% DR plus +15% damage from CA is a very good tab.Plus the aggro mechanism.
MArk it could be buffed by:
1)Mark Focus not to last only 20 secs ,but as GWF to last indefinetely untill GF marks another target as MArk Focus.
2)Mark could have an AoE effect as Lunging Strike.Meaning:The target aimed become Mark Focus with all the bonuses.Inside a cone 2 other adds are just normal marked.
Hint to struggling dps GFs:
Blink Dog and Devourer companion provide % increase to CA.Not adding it to your CA damage but multilying it.It ends a little bit more.Blink Dog is very cheap at Ah.30-40k.With 30k you get a 2-3% increase damage while other classes struggle with enchantemets etc.
The Tr artifact provides CA damage bonus.Another free way to increase your dps significantly.
I say it again.Mark in current form is great.it needs a buff but not a rework.Who ever thinks Mark is lucklaster ,i dare to say he does not know its huge advantages.
Nearly +35% damage in PVE!!!
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
edited October 2014
My major complaint is that steel blitz seems to do nothing. I needs a serious buff.
I want to post this separately cause they are might be new GFs out there who do not know the positioning in classes hierarchy before the buffs we got prior to Mod3.
After mod 1 but especially after Mod2 there were nearly no GF around in NW.They were useless as a class.
In random pugs GF were kicked for no reason.Cause tanking was not needed,buffs were non existent and dps was abysmal low.
I played during that period and you could play Gf only with your friends/guild/legit.
Things were not so good as it is now.
Don't ask for ITF/KV nerfs we might end up in the same spot.The CW/GWF/HR community will never allow us to get more dps.They are trying even now to nerf the existent.
We should defend GF as it is now and ask only for BUFFS.My suggestion.For anyone that does not want ITF/KV there is a simple solution.Don't use it.Slot something else.But why you ask for a nerf to an encounter that you do not use?
This is happening only in GF community.I never saw GWFs to ask for nerfs for their own class.
As we say in Greek "don't put your eyes out by yourself"
The only suggestion I don't like is for combat superiority. I think allowing it to build threat is an excellent idea, especially for GFs who largely run without KV. Enforced Threat can only do so much, even when tied with Threatening Rush.
Other than that, I agree with you.
Schweifer meant Tactical superiority the t4 feat of Conqs.I think .And why not both?Combat superiorito to add 5% more threat per rank ,and Tactical supeiority in its 5/5 to add +5% more critical.I think +5% is balanced(in truth i think it is low but nvm) and reasonable.
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vinceent1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,264Arc User
edited October 2014
it depends. if you like have 3 encounters where you simply open your arms for the enemy (visually) you are satisfied
^^
There are no whinners.There are three (3) people in the forums ,i repeat three(3) that don't like ITF/KV.These are Gfs..lol.
I play with legit community ,i never saw one person there arguing about itf/kv.i pug a lot ,i mean a lot for skirmishes /t2.I never saw one complain.
Actually quite the opposite.They complain if YOU DO NOT USE KV/ITF.
ITF and KV are godsend to us .And said they were buffed by the leading designer of NW,Crush.
And now we have some people (3) that don't like it.
Cause ...."we are buffbots...
Lol
I did some runs in PK last night wearing my rusted old Knight captain set(the worst choise for DPS-it increases the dps of your party but not your own)).Just at 16,2 gs.My rotation?
Enforced Threat KV ITF.Crushing Surge/Wapon Master Strike.Dailies Villan's and Terrifying Impact.In all runs i was second paingiver and in one thierd but i was dced.
The meaning is you can enjoy GF even he is a buffbot.
I'm one of those who doesn't really like KV/ITF, but it's not because I want to be a DPS dealer. I just enjoy a far more proactive controlling type of play. I'll slot KV when I have to, but that's it.
Schweifer meant Tactical superiority the t4 feat of Conqs.I think .And why not both?Combat superiorito to add 5% more threat per rank ,and Tactical supeiority in its 5/5 to add +5% more critical.I think +5% is balanced(in truth i think it is low but nvm) and reasonable.
^^
There are no whinners.There are three (3) people in the forums ,i repeat three(3) that don't like ITF/KV.These are Gfs..lol.
I play with legit community ,i never saw one person there arguing about itf/kv.i pug a lot ,i mean a lot for skirmishes /t2.I never saw one complain.
Actually quite the opposite.They complain if YOU DO NOT USE KV/ITF.
ITF and KV are godsend to us .And said they were buffed by the leading designer of NW,Crush.
And now we have some people (3) that don't like it.
Cause ...."we are buffbots...
Lol
I did some runs in PK last night wearing my rusted old Knight captain set(the worst choise for DPS-it increases the dps of your party but not your own)).Just at 16,2 gs.My rotation?
Enforced Threat KV ITF.Crushing Surge/Wapon Master Strike.Dailies Villan's and Terrifying Impact.In all runs i was second paingiver and in one thierd but i was dced.
The meaning is you can enjoy GF even he is a buffbot.
Why these people complaIN?Cause they don't want to be buff bots.So they want more dps?Another proposition from the same people "Remove CA from Mark it makes positioning easy" LMAO!!!!! CA=15%+ damage.Another godsend feauture we have.
And yet some pleople want us not to be "buffbots" but also not to have CA =means less damage.
So what these people want?
Use you logic.
They want to NERF the GF.They don't play GF as main they play CW/GWFS.The bitter truth.
Feedback: Mark as in current form is great.-20% DR plus +15% damage from CA is a very good tab.Plus the aggro mechanism.
MArk it could be buffed by:
1)Mark Focus not to last only 20 secs ,but as GWF to last indefinetely untill GF marks another target as MArk Focus.
2)Mark could have an AoE effect as Lunging Strike.Meaning:The target aimed become Mark Focus with all the bonuses.Inside a cone 2 other adds are just normal marked.
Hint to struggling dps GFs:
Blink Dog and Devourer companion provide % increase to CA.Not adding it to your CA damage but multilying it.It ends a little bit more.Blink Dog is very cheap at Ah.30-40k.With 30k you get a 2-3% increase damage while other classes struggle with enchantemets etc.
The Tr artifact provides CA damage bonus.Another free way to increase your dps significantly.
I say it again.Mark in current form is great.it needs a buff but not a rework.Who ever thinks Mark is lucklaster ,i dare to say he does not know its huge advantages.
Nearly +35% damage in PVE!!!
Well as a high greaded GF how try out anything in this game i can say this :
GF will be never ever agan in the close circle of the 6 paingiver char DC/SW/CW/GWF/TR/HR.
Also yes you can out dps 7 k GS CW w/o any enchant or companion.
Lest say with 19k GF perfect enchants +purple artifacts.
The combat advantage from those pets only help a little bit also anyone else can use it too so pls dont misinform other ppl.
My CW-s OF can deal around 1,5-2 mill and this is only 1 daily.
My GWF can deal around 500k-1,6 mill Cagi and this is only 1 encounter .
My SW can deal on bosses 1-3 mill with 1 encounter (IF set).
Now tell me your secret what heck program do you use to pair with those DPS guys?
I have those pets too i can only beat a really bad player how have 6-8k GS lower then i have .
I can say only 1 thing this PVE desing is total wrong (LS must be reduced by 90% ) or GF have zero role in pve .
Also the line between GF dps (conq ) and other dps path (incuding sentinel off tank) are too huge.
NOW mod4
From 1-10 DPS score
CW 10
GWF 9
HR 9
SW 9
TR 5
GF 4
DC 4
After MOD 5
CW 11(the nerf became a buff+he can have the best artifact set in game)
GWF 8(nerfed intimidiation)
HR 9(nothing changed)
SW 9( nothing changed)
GF 1 (not because its nerfed ,thing is other classes will got a huge buff and another power hungry tools gears artifact sets )
DC 9 (Brutal huge DPS buff he can benefit from CW artifact set too)
TR 8 (Brutal huge DPS buff)
I really dont want to insult y but pls put me on your friend list and run with my GWF 1 run w/o KV and ITF and i will post our results .
Or you can try your self out vs my CW SW HR then i will put here or in another thread the screenshots .
As you all know many desparate GF read this thread too dont spend fals rumors about GF superior DPS.
Cuz i have all req tools and i dont see the omg awesome dps.
The dps out come in Dpvp is fine but vs other classes is terrible too well graded HR CW GWF can 2 shoot any type GF.
GF is still have better spot in pvp then SW TR and DC so he is not bad. But not awesome too .
Well as a high greaded GF how try out anything in this game i can say this :
GF will be never ever agan in the close circle of the 6 paingiver char DC/SW/CW/GWF/TR/HR.
Also yes you can out dps 7 k GS CW w/o any enchant or companion.
Lest say with 19k GF perfect enchants +purple artifacts.
The combat advantage from those pets only help a little bit also anyone else can use it too so pls dont misinform other ppl.
My CW-s OF can deal around 1,5-2 mill and this is only 1 daily.
My GWF can deal around 500k-1,6 mill Cagi and this is only 1 encounter .
My SW can deal on bosses 1-3 mill with 1 encounter (IF set).
Now tell me your secret what heck program do you use to pair with those DPS guys?
I have those pets too i can only beat a really bad player how have 6-8k GS lower then i have . I can say only 1 thing this PVE desing is total wrong (LS must be reduced by 90% ) or GF have zero role in pve .
Also the line between GF dps (conq ) and other dps path (incuding sentinel off tank) are too huge.
NOW mod4
From 1-10 DPS score
CW 10
GWF 9
HR 9
SW 9
TR 5
GF 4
DC 4
After MOD 5
CW 11(the nerf became a buff+he can have the best artifact set in game)
GWF 8(nerfed intimidiation)
HR 9(nothing changed)
SW 9( nothing changed)
GF 1 (not because its nerfed ,thing is other classes will got a huge buff and another power hungry tools gears artifact sets )
DC 9 (Brutal huge DPS buff he can benefit from CW artifact set too)
TR 8 (Brutal huge DPS buff)
I really dont want to insult y but pls put me on your friend list and run with my GWF 1 run w/o KV and ITF and i will post our results .
Or you can try your self out vs my CW SW HR then i will put here or in another thread the screenshots .
As you all know many desparate GF read this thread too dont spend fals rumors about GF superior DPS.
Cuz i have all req tools and i dont see the omg awesome dps.
The dps out come in Dpvp is fine but vs other classes is terrible too well graded HR CW GWF can 2 shoot any type GF.
GF is still have better spot in pvp then SW TR and DC so he is not bad. But not awesome too .
You see?
Some players don't understand ITF and KV and think it does nothing. They also think mark does nothing. Why? Because they don't show on the paingivers and ACT.
I understand some players don't want to buff other players, and that is fine. But my question is if you like DPS'ing so much, why don't you play GWF instead? Leave this class alone!
Before mod 4 NOBODY wanted GF's in groups, now almost EVERY group wants GF, except the guys that don't understand KV and ITF. GF is now the EASIEST class for me to get a group with.............
Venril Sathir- CW
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
Some players don't understand ITF and KV and think it does nothing. They also think mark does nothing. Why? Because they don't show on the paingivers and ACT.
I understand some players don't want to buff other players, and that is fine. But my question is if you like DPS'ing so much, why don't you play GWF instead? Leave this class alone!
Before mod 4 NOBODY wanted GF's in groups, now almost EVERY group wants GF, except the guys that don't understand KV and ITF. GF is now the EASIEST class for me to get a group with.............
Thing is any one can play DPS any one can have fun to kill (any other class but not GF).
Why cant i have fun as GF Dps ?
Cuz y have fun as buffer ? Why do y not play DC (her role is the buffer debuffer) ?
Also why cant i have fun as tank?
Cuz anyone is more tank then i am why? Cuz i cant pull 50 mobs and kill them and regain with my LS w/o Endless.C 1956156464651621354 HP.
GF is faaar faaar away from the soo called tank.
Y have fun as playing buffer GF ok for me .
But i want to have fun playing tank or DPS.
I want to be wanted in groups w/o ITF and KV .
The role of the class cannot be depend on 2 encounters.
Just to kow somthing about me i reworked my GF cuz i find it lack of anything now i am playing too a buff bot.
I am now ower 70% DR my ITF gives 57.5% more dps to any one.
I dont think any of you see GF as a party buffer bot.
Also not even 1 cap feat gives us soo much as other classes cap feats .
So crossing tactican and protector is our best hybrid option .
Also i dont say nerf to ITF or KV cuz i know this is the only 2 thing what keep us in pt.
But i want other options too i want to feel my self tanky as GWF sentinel also i want the same dps outcome as GWF sentinel .
Some of y say omg i hit on HE dragon with KC+Anvil 150 k omg omg brutal GF(bro this is 2 skill not 1).
I just say this omg i hit on HE dragon 789603 Come and get it omg omg -
Or 598771 Ice Knife.
Or 998865 Aimed shoot.
Or 3 mill dot in 3 sec with my sw on start .
And you all think GF is powerfull?
I have TR and DC too both are cool graded rank8 purple artis +arti weapons all boons i tested them in prev and i can say this they will do brutal dps too.
veilofentropyMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 13Arc User
edited October 2014
The problem that I experience and hear is that KV+ItF is almost necessary in most PVE parties.
That should not happen. GFs, and us as players, should not solely be restricted to the use of two Encounter Powers to be viable in PVE.
That does not mean we should be seeking 'nerfs' for them, yet other Powers need to be improved so that GFs are not just a one-trick pony.
The real problem is exactly what Schweifer has been trying to illustrate in that the general DPS capability of the GF is so low at present that DPS specced GFs have absolutely no role in PVE at all anymore and the GF in PVP is not comparable to other classes with regard to DPS purely because other classes put out significantly more DPS.
You could argue that the role of the GF is purely to buff party members, yet that doesn't exactly make PVPing as a GF enjoyable nor does it really offset the lack of DPS GFs have as compared to other classes.
Trying to kill any other class 1v1 in PVP may often be extraordinarily difficult and it may often be easier for other classes to kill us than it is to kill them.
This really indicates to me that the GF as a class is unbalanced when compared to other classes and, I for one, would like to have that imbalance redressed.
I ll tell in public what i think:
I agree to Scweifer and veilof.
But if we take into account how Cryptic works.its limited manpower and resources plus the stress of the DnD licence to put more modules..:
Asking for any rework ,will end up in nerf to us.Nerf is easy, buffs need extensive testing.
The Cw horde will never allow us to gain more dps.Their advocate shows up in here asking for nerfs yet none of you that criticize me ,showed up and confronted him.
If you want more dps i am with you i made some suggestions about Griffon's Wrath,tactical superiority etc....Except Schweifer i did not see any of you endorsing them.
Quite the opposite.
You endorced the covered up nerf demads in Mark/ITF/KV of masqueraded CW and GWFs.....:(
By asking extremely complicated things like "dual stance " in tab with two separate functions you give free card to Cryptic to nerf the current,adequate mark.
The things you ask are very difficult to implement.While removeing CA from Mark it is extremely easy....Think!!!
So i think for a start none GF should ask for nerf to any of our powers!!Ask for buuffs ,not for nerfs!!
Cause nerfs in cryptic games come easy,buffs extremely difficult ,bugged and after quite some time.These...
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited October 2014
Thx guys for kind pms .
I must say it out i know almost everything about this game what i must about GF /CW / SW /DC /HR /GWF /TR.
What i dont have is the req tool to defend our class cuz my eng is terrible its my 4th lang .
But i will try my best to keep cont....
This is why we have damnacious as advocate and as i see he do her job awesome.
I think he try to transalate my gibbelish to eng and he do it well.
And for this i wanted to say THX bro.
We have super smal community with GF heart so brother and sisters with shilds rise up.
Second where do you see GWF lack of DPS? I can post some of my own personal scores as a GWF iyw.
Also i want dps out of itf and kv so i can use my DPS tank (conq) or the true tank (protector) w/o ITF and i want them viable too .
I also want Tactican much more CC cuz one sec stun and 0,1 sec interrupt make zero difference both in pve and pvp.
I have a q to y i am sure y experienced this too .
You enter E.SoT or normal and meet 3 or 2 GF what can you do ?
Do DPS? Do CC? What role do y expect from them ? Cuz 3 KV dont do anything 3 ITF dont give 3 times more dps.
Now lets talk about upcoming mod5 raid what do y expect from 5 GF in Tiamat Raid ?
5 KV? Lagging like hell?
All talk about how dead are GWF now but this is total bull**** they just gived up and moved to they CW and HR.
But i see them viable High dps in mod 4 and in mod 5 moving from 9-to 8 is not a huge difference.
They are all wanted and will be wanted in future no matter if another DPS class will come out from devs pocket.
Do you see GWFs not wanted after HR rework ? No
Do you see GWFs not wanted after SW come to ligth ? No
Do you see GWFs not wanted after CW rework? No
Do you think they will not wanted after TR rework? ?
Do you think they will not wanted after DC rework? ?
I dont think if someone will be soo kind to give GF some love in they weakest point tankyness and DPS will make any difference. Any way ,GWF main char playing players are smart they already figured out how to overcome the upcoming nerfs so dont worry they will be viable.
Now lets talk about other thing GWF sentinel can survive golems frontal attack why?
Cuz he have all time 80% dr and 50% deflect .
But in the mean time show me 1 GF not one shooted w/o block.
Also the GWF sentinel have huge brust unlimited time on her mark and super LS 1 encouter 70-80 k hp with only 9 % ls.
Any way i dont want nerfs to my second main char i just want to see my GF in good spot like him.
Do you see my problem now?
I have always seen your problem. You want GF at top of paingivers with conqueror spec, like GWF. Fine. You don't want to be forced to buff other players like GWF, also fine. You don't want to be one shotted w/o block-like GWF.
My question is you already have 21k GWF, why do you want to play GF?
I play GF because I like ITF, I like KV, I like helping the team. I have always liked support classes in other games like this.
I like GF exactly how he is now.
GWF is the best melee DPS in Neverwinter. Why do people want to make GF into GWF?
Venril Sathir- CW
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
I have always seen your problem. You want GF at top of paingivers with conqueror spec, like GWF. Fine. You don't want to be forced to buff other players like GWF, also fine. You don't want to be one shotted w/o block-like GWF.
My question is you already have 21k GWF, why do you want to play GF?
I play GF because I like ITF, I like KV, I like helping the team. I have always liked support classes in other games like this.
I like GF exactly how he is now.
GWF is the best melee DPS in Neverwinter. Why do people want to make GF into GWF?
Cause GWF is not the only DPS he i tank too....See the double standards?GWF Sent is a semi tank but also with intimidation does 15-20k damage non crit and with crit 25-40k damage.GWF Sent can take our place in parties.Sure he cannot buff ,but when he can kill twin scorpions in 15-20 secs,there is no need to.
NW is not a balanced game.
Control Wizard does not only control but it is the n1 dps.
HR is semi ranged yet the tankiest class.
GWF Sent can oneshoot people with just a proc.
etc etc...
By admitting GF only to be buffbot we castrate ourselves.
Even we take your logic there is the dps tree of Gf the Conq.It is a dps tree by definition.Since he is dps...he must at least be able to light dps.Current with the buffs all other classes took,Conq cannot outdps not even properly specced TRs..
In Mod5 the situation will be dire and most difficult.
Damnacious I like your idea of changing tab mechanic. Its silly that ppl cant read. It would mark the same at long distances with aoe mark in close with buff to party. I second your idea to tone down the ITF and KV to balance it with aditional buff mechanic. It would be so much easier to control mobs with swordmaster and maintaining mark on all mobs.
schweifer1982 you have some problems with gameplay if ur dieing on new dungeons/skirmishes. I do all without drinking potions and no ceric with KV on. Theres a secret. You are at end game so you should now it. Maximize ap gaind from block (heroic + conqueror) you will start to go under golems over the head swing to take hit on block. Insta daily... fighters recovery = full hp and 5 sec imortality if ur swordmaster. In that case even can start FiR before group of mobs and go in with enforce threat. Last boss on eSoT is just silly easy. Take all hits at block=full AP after needle attack just FiR->ITF->AoD, repeat with shield slaming and stabing. sooooo easy, man wheres your problem? .
PS. Im conqueror SM pvp build
Main : GF - Lord Kruk Steel and Magic
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damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
edited October 2014
Enough with the bickering guys.
Quite simply, we are brothers-in-arms. Let's start acting like it and support one another.
So stop the 'you don't know what you're talking about', 'go back to your CW/GWF' etc. comments.
They aren't constructive and have no place in this thread. The next time it happens, regardless of the content of the rest of the post, that post will most likely be removed from this thread.
I want and need people to feel comfortable in expressing their opinion in this thread and it will not happen if they are treated in a manner that is not constructive, courteous, polite and respectful.
Take 10 seconds before you post and make sure your post is appropriate.
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damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
edited October 2014
Let's see if i can sum up the current situation and perspective...
Knight's Valor is great as it is and is needed to be kept as it is so that the GF has value in PVE parties.
Into the Fray is great as it is and is needed to be kept as it is so that the GF has value in PVE parties.
Not every GF player wants to play a 'buff bot'.
GFs, particularly the Conqueror path, need a damage increase to make them more balanced against other classes.
Tab is good as it is and could be improved yet there is serious concern whether any changes will just end up with the GF worse off.
Knight's Valor and Into the Fray
The way I see the situation is that Knight's Valor and Into the Fray are currently used and needed as they are so that GFs have some value in parties, however, this limits the GF in how they can play their class and still be viable and of benefit to parties.
To me, this 'Best in Slot' attitude is currently a bad, yet necessary, perspective which we need to improve upon.
From my perspective, we have three choices:
Improve the value and capability of other Powers and Feats so that they are better able to be used and welcome in parties;
Request a reduction of the benefits Knight's Valor and Into the Fray provide so that they are no longer considered 'BiS'; or
Be reasonable and compromise by incorporating both of those two other ideas into one: improve other Powers and Feats and request a reduction to KV and ItF.
I think it is logical to assume that the second option is not ideal and does not improve our situation. This leaves us with option 1. and option 3.
If we consider that not everyone WANTS to use either, or both, Knight's Valor and Into the Fray, then we must consider either:
Buffing other Powers and Feats to make them equally as potent; or
Improve other Powers and Feats and request a reduction to KV and ItF so that more options are considered equally viable.
Considering the nature of the potency of both KV and ItF, I find it difficult to believe that GFs will receive a boost to a number of other Powers and Feats that would rival that of KV and ItF, purely because that would open up too many problems with balancing GFs with other classes.
From my perspective, this leaves the second option as the most logical and the most reasonable which will likely satisfy the most players.
It is important to note here that achieving a result that is for the 'greater good' of the player base IS more important than satisfying a minority, regardless of who that minority is and whether their desires are 'better'.
Increasing Damage
The first thing I think it is most important to be aware of, and remember, is that both Guardian Fighters and Great Weapon Fighters are both BUILDS of the Fighter class.
Where the GWF build has decided to focus on damage over survivability, the GF build has chosen survivability over damage.
This essentially means that at no time should the GF ever be putting out as much damage as a pure DPS GWF and, very rarely, should a GF be doing as much damage as a pure Tank GWF. The flip side of this is that at no time should a GWF have equal survivability as a GF.
However, this should not preclude the GF from being competitive in damage and fighting capability with other classes in general, just that no GF player should really expect to be able to do as much damage as a DPS class.
From my perspective, we have three options that would enable GFs to be viable and competitive with other classes:
Increase the damage capability of many Powers and Feats significantly so that GFs can compete equally;
Increase the capabilities of the GF to be competitive without increasing damage, such as through Crowd Control; or
A mixture of both 1. and 2. where Powers and Feats have their damage increased by a small amount and the GF's Crowd Controlling abilities are also increased.
Now, given my prior statements regarding the maximum DPS capabilities of a GF in comparison to other classes, I think it is fair and reasonable to discount option 1.
I think that although option 2. would be beneficial for the class in general, it will not satisfy the needs of all GF players as there is a desire by some of the player base to play a DPS GF build and therefore ignoring the need to increase damage at all for the class would not be suitable.
By this logic, this would leave option 3. as the most viable and reasonable. Certainly, there would be, comparatively with other DPS classes, a noticeable difference in the DPS of a DPS built GF, however I believe an increase in Crowd Control instead would balance this out perfectly.
For the last 12+ months, GFs have survived in PVP mostly on the use of Prones, Knockbacks and Stuns. If it wasn't for our use of these, as a class, we would have been almost completely useless.
Therefore, I think that by increasing both the damage and Crowd Control capabilities of the GF would provide us with the means to be competitive, viable and valued in both PVP and PVE. In PVP our Crowd Control capabilities would make up for our lack of DPS, coupled with our increased survivability and in PVE, Crowd Control will provide another valuable option for a party to consider using, particularly in a party or situation where there is another GF, without making one or the other of the GFs an essential 'dead weight' that can't contribute anything extra.
Tab
I've already provided my suggestion on what to do with our Tab function. Given the above, I feel that it is a viable and reasonable option, particularly as it incorporates a resolution to both the issues with Knight's Valor / Into the Fray and the current lack of damage/control.
What I think we need to do now is literally go through every single aspect of the GF class and identify what areas currently work well and what needs to be improved. From there, we can then start discussing ways to specifically improve each aspect one at a time and, hopefully, come to an agreement on what those improvements will be.
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damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
edited October 2014
By the way, in case none of you have realised yet, GFs are the ONLY class not to have an official feedback thread for changes in Mod5.
This is why I believe this thread is necessary and so vitally important.
Let's not allow our class to be overlooked once again.
If we keep our posts here in a constructive and positive manner, it may very well indicate to the Developers how serious we are about changes we need to our class.
Well, I believe if our weapon damage is increased to the level of other classes it would help out personal DPS a lot.
That should be simple and quick for the devs to do just in time for mod 5 and you won't necessarily break the class in the process.
*edit* Also fix Conqueror capstone so that you get 10 second 25% damage buff (non stackable)every time you crit. That way you don't need 5 stacks to do top damage after everything has died.
With the current capstone getting hit is too similar to the tactical superiority feat.
Venril Sathir- CW
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
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nezraalMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2014
I play GF as my second character and so I don't want to give feedback. But I found a nice premade PvP GF video, thought you guys might like it.
GWF is the best melee DPS in Neverwinter. Why do people want to make GF into GWF?
For me reason is simple - the shield block mechanics is more appealing than teleporting/running off red circles. PWE wants people to believe that red circles are fun and dodges/sprints are skill.
GF has more diversing set of abilities to perform in different roles and situations. Recent accent on KV/ItF only exists because GF contribute no better that 3-10% of total damage providing same gear level in team.
Superior DPS makes clearing faster but not more interesting or challenging. If GF players were only about "feel safe" in tank shell in first half of module 3, they were all hiding in unstoppable godmode.
This idea that GFs that run KV and ITF in PvE are BUFF BOTs has problems to me. It doesn't accurately portray the play experience. The word passive has been used to describe KV and ITF GF, and that also doesn't accurately describe the play experience. I have played games with BUFF BOT characters that are passive and they are usually effectively played by sitting in the back and waiting for the encounter to be over. A GF running KV and ITF takes agro and has all the active play that corresponds to that.
When I play eLoL and eSoT with KV and ITF the play isn't passive. The fact of the matter is the GF has to be the highest working character in the group.
And let us put this into context, if you change out KV and replace it with Front Line Surge what have you really done in terms of changing the GFs play style? You maybe spam a button every 10 seconds where you didn't before, and maybe you time that to something you want to disrupt, but this is only a minor part of the play experience and doesn't reduce the GF to active or passive.
Now all this said, PvP is different, and there is a difference between play styles designed to be well timed disrupts and play styles designed to turtle, but so much of PvE is about guard time, move timing, spamming tab or rotating it in, and fitting in Tide of Iron between, that you don't become passive just because you are running KV.
If you think a ITF and KV GF that holds agro feels "passive" then that explains some people questioning the survivability and relevance of a GF. If a CW with a CW play style had ITF and KV that would probably be passive, but when the person weaving their abilities between holding agro and big damaging attacks has it, that isn't passive. Automatically you cannot change that person into a passive play style until they give up the agro holding. If there was a build designed around buffing and not holding agro and not dealing with the weaving of abilities around big attacks, that would probably be a passive BUFF BOT, but we are not that.
Comments
To me the only ones completely underwhelming to someone already using those passives are Ferocious Reaction and Enduring Warrior, which are also coincidentally the only ones related to healing.
Though I don't know who is actually using enduring warrior... so that one is almost a throwaway in the first place.
The Ferocious Reaction bonus is an extra 2 to 3k heal every 3 minutes? So rare it would matter and so rare it is used. (Though I read it is bugged on test at the moment). Enduring Warrior bonus is an underwhelming extra bit of healing at the rate the ability procs.
I break complicated decisions into "admissible" and "inadmissible". The admissible choices are the ones where there is a case for them being used in realistic situations/scenarios. The inadmissible choices are the ones where there is no realistic case where you should use it given an alternative. Those two bonus passives stand out as me as "inadmissible" meaning nobody should use them ever given an alternative choice. The rest strike me as admissible.
I plan on using the Steel Defense bonus in PvE.
Presently, I enjoy playing GF.
I'd say she (protector) excels at taking the hits (especially if there's a good DC).
Improvements?
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
The only suggestion I don't like is for combat superiority. I think allowing it to build threat is an excellent idea, especially for GFs who largely run without KV. Enforced Threat can only do so much, even when tied with Threatening Rush.
Other than that, I agree with you.
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
"I think it fits it's role really well now compared to the last two mods. But it's role is a tank and a lot of the game mechanics don't require or encourage use of a tank in higher level groups."
"I really like the new block mechanic, that works well."
"Path wise, I feel like the conqurer's damage has never been the same since they changed the mechanic away from 2x strength bonus, but I know the problem is block + high dps is very overpowered."
"Honestly, they are pretty good where they are at. I could selfishly request a few changes (like shorter cooldown times on some skills), but it would unbalance them more than balance them."
"I don't really want to see the GF morphing into a buff bot type of thing though (althought KC armor favorted that (and Stalwart at one point))."
"Maybe more of a leader role (if you look at traditional D&D). But I don't know what classes PWE has in teh works or when they will be released."
"Maybe making some of the daily powers more group helpful (like fighter's recovery also applies to your entire team (at 50% effectiveness) or having Villian's Menance grant everyone with temporary immunity from control powers within a certain range (and maybe a slight buff as well). Anyway, GFs gain dailies really fast (faster in high GS groups), so using those as the medium to share with others makes a lot of sense to me (and should be rougly ok PVP wise)."
"KV is another good for low level group skill in low level dungeons, but in new content high GS groups, lifesteal makes up for party damage, so absorbing some doesn't help anyone (and gets you dead)"
"I used to love SoS, but I don't run it anymore. I am not up on the changes for it, but one day it just felt like it was only dealing about 50% dps and I dropped it."
"If I have to do a 180 turn, to block something, my attack usually takes precident & I end up blocking the direction from which I came."
If you want paingiver charts play GWF. Some players don't understand the concept of support class and class diversity. In the LFG channel, loads of groups specifically ask for GF-far more than they ask for GWF.
I just had to say it.
I'm really worried KV and into the fray are going to get trashed because of the whiners.
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
dont want to be guardian buffbot, want to be guardian FIGHTER
^^
There are no whinners.There are three (3) people in the forums ,i repeat three(3) that don't like ITF/KV.These are Gfs..lol.
I play with legit community ,i never saw one person there arguing about itf/kv.i pug a lot ,i mean a lot for skirmishes /t2.I never saw one complain.
Actually quite the opposite.They complain if YOU DO NOT USE KV/ITF.
ITF and KV are godsend to us .And said they were buffed by the leading designer of NW,Crush.
And now we have some people (3) that don't like it.
Cause ...."we are buffbots...
Lol
I did some runs in PK last night wearing my rusted old Knight captain set(the worst choise for DPS-it increases the dps of your party but not your own)).Just at 16,2 gs.My rotation?
Enforced Threat KV ITF.Crushing Surge/Wapon Master Strike.Dailies Villan's and Terrifying Impact.In all runs i was second paingiver and in one thierd but i was dced.
The meaning is you can enjoy GF even he is a buffbot.
Why these people complaIN?Cause they don't want to be buff bots.So they want more dps?Another proposition from the same people "Remove CA from Mark it makes positioning easy" LMAO!!!!! CA=15%+ damage.Another godsend feauture we have.
And yet some pleople want us not to be "buffbots" but also not to have CA =means less damage.
So what these people want?
Use you logic.
They want to NERF the GF.They don't play GF as main they play CW/GWFS.The bitter truth.
Feedback:
Mark as in current form is great.-20% DR plus +15% damage from CA is a very good tab.Plus the aggro mechanism.
MArk it could be buffed by:
1)Mark Focus not to last only 20 secs ,but as GWF to last indefinetely untill GF marks another target as MArk Focus.
2)Mark could have an AoE effect as Lunging Strike.Meaning:The target aimed become Mark Focus with all the bonuses.Inside a cone 2 other adds are just normal marked.
Hint to struggling dps GFs:
Blink Dog and Devourer companion provide % increase to CA.Not adding it to your CA damage but multilying it.It ends a little bit more.Blink Dog is very cheap at Ah.30-40k.With 30k you get a 2-3% increase damage while other classes struggle with enchantemets etc.
The Tr artifact provides CA damage bonus.Another free way to increase your dps significantly.
I say it again.Mark in current form is great.it needs a buff but not a rework.Who ever thinks Mark is lucklaster ,i dare to say he does not know its huge advantages.
Nearly +35% damage in PVE!!!
After mod 1 but especially after Mod2 there were nearly no GF around in NW.They were useless as a class.
In random pugs GF were kicked for no reason.Cause tanking was not needed,buffs were non existent and dps was abysmal low.
I played during that period and you could play Gf only with your friends/guild/legit.
Things were not so good as it is now.
Don't ask for ITF/KV nerfs we might end up in the same spot.The CW/GWF/HR community will never allow us to get more dps.They are trying even now to nerf the existent.
We should defend GF as it is now and ask only for BUFFS.My suggestion.For anyone that does not want ITF/KV there is a simple solution.Don't use it.Slot something else.But why you ask for a nerf to an encounter that you do not use?
This is happening only in GF community.I never saw GWFs to ask for nerfs for their own class.
As we say in Greek "don't put your eyes out by yourself"
Cheers!
Schweifer meant Tactical superiority the t4 feat of Conqs.I think
i wish GF will be more controller than buffer
I'm one of those who doesn't really like KV/ITF, but it's not because I want to be a DPS dealer. I just enjoy a far more proactive controlling type of play. I'll slot KV when I have to, but that's it.
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
I hear ya. That's not too bad for the Conqs, then
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
Well as a high greaded GF how try out anything in this game i can say this :
GF will be never ever agan in the close circle of the 6 paingiver char DC/SW/CW/GWF/TR/HR.
Also yes you can out dps 7 k GS CW w/o any enchant or companion.
Lest say with 19k GF perfect enchants +purple artifacts.
The combat advantage from those pets only help a little bit also anyone else can use it too so pls dont misinform other ppl.
My CW-s OF can deal around 1,5-2 mill and this is only 1 daily.
My GWF can deal around 500k-1,6 mill Cagi and this is only 1 encounter .
My SW can deal on bosses 1-3 mill with 1 encounter (IF set).
Now tell me your secret what heck program do you use to pair with those DPS guys?
I have those pets too i can only beat a really bad player how have 6-8k GS lower then i have .
I can say only 1 thing this PVE desing is total wrong (LS must be reduced by 90% ) or GF have zero role in pve .
Also the line between GF dps (conq ) and other dps path (incuding sentinel off tank) are too huge.
NOW mod4
From 1-10 DPS score
CW 10
GWF 9
HR 9
SW 9
TR 5
GF 4
DC 4
After MOD 5
CW 11(the nerf became a buff+he can have the best artifact set in game)
GWF 8(nerfed intimidiation)
HR 9(nothing changed)
SW 9( nothing changed)
GF 1 (not because its nerfed ,thing is other classes will got a huge buff and another power hungry tools gears artifact sets )
DC 9 (Brutal huge DPS buff he can benefit from CW artifact set too)
TR 8 (Brutal huge DPS buff)
I really dont want to insult y but pls put me on your friend list and run with my GWF 1 run w/o KV and ITF and i will post our results .
Or you can try your self out vs my CW SW HR then i will put here or in another thread the screenshots .
As you all know many desparate GF read this thread too dont spend fals rumors about GF superior DPS.
Cuz i have all req tools and i dont see the omg awesome dps.
The dps out come in Dpvp is fine but vs other classes is terrible too well graded HR CW GWF can 2 shoot any type GF.
GF is still have better spot in pvp then SW TR and DC so he is not bad. But not awesome too .
You see?
Some players don't understand ITF and KV and think it does nothing. They also think mark does nothing. Why? Because they don't show on the paingivers and ACT.
I understand some players don't want to buff other players, and that is fine. But my question is if you like DPS'ing so much, why don't you play GWF instead? Leave this class alone!
Before mod 4 NOBODY wanted GF's in groups, now almost EVERY group wants GF, except the guys that don't understand KV and ITF. GF is now the EASIEST class for me to get a group with.............
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
Thing is any one can play DPS any one can have fun to kill (any other class but not GF).
Why cant i have fun as GF Dps ?
Cuz y have fun as buffer ? Why do y not play DC (her role is the buffer debuffer) ?
Also why cant i have fun as tank?
Cuz anyone is more tank then i am why? Cuz i cant pull 50 mobs and kill them and regain with my LS w/o Endless.C 1956156464651621354 HP.
GF is faaar faaar away from the soo called tank.
Y have fun as playing buffer GF ok for me .
But i want to have fun playing tank or DPS.
I want to be wanted in groups w/o ITF and KV .
The role of the class cannot be depend on 2 encounters.
Just to kow somthing about me i reworked my GF cuz i find it lack of anything now i am playing too a buff bot.
I am now ower 70% DR my ITF gives 57.5% more dps to any one.
I dont think any of you see GF as a party buffer bot.
Also not even 1 cap feat gives us soo much as other classes cap feats .
So crossing tactican and protector is our best hybrid option .
Also i dont say nerf to ITF or KV cuz i know this is the only 2 thing what keep us in pt.
But i want other options too i want to feel my self tanky as GWF sentinel also i want the same dps outcome as GWF sentinel .
Some of y say omg i hit on HE dragon with KC+Anvil 150 k omg omg brutal GF(bro this is 2 skill not 1).
I just say this omg i hit on HE dragon 789603 Come and get it omg omg -
Or 598771 Ice Knife.
Or 998865 Aimed shoot.
Or 3 mill dot in 3 sec with my sw on start .
And you all think GF is powerfull?
I have TR and DC too both are cool graded rank8 purple artis +arti weapons all boons i tested them in prev and i can say this they will do brutal dps too.
That should not happen. GFs, and us as players, should not solely be restricted to the use of two Encounter Powers to be viable in PVE.
That does not mean we should be seeking 'nerfs' for them, yet other Powers need to be improved so that GFs are not just a one-trick pony.
The real problem is exactly what Schweifer has been trying to illustrate in that the general DPS capability of the GF is so low at present that DPS specced GFs have absolutely no role in PVE at all anymore and the GF in PVP is not comparable to other classes with regard to DPS purely because other classes put out significantly more DPS.
You could argue that the role of the GF is purely to buff party members, yet that doesn't exactly make PVPing as a GF enjoyable nor does it really offset the lack of DPS GFs have as compared to other classes.
Trying to kill any other class 1v1 in PVP may often be extraordinarily difficult and it may often be easier for other classes to kill us than it is to kill them.
This really indicates to me that the GF as a class is unbalanced when compared to other classes and, I for one, would like to have that imbalance redressed.
I agree to Scweifer and veilof.
But if we take into account how Cryptic works.its limited manpower and resources plus the stress of the DnD licence to put more modules..:
Asking for any rework ,will end up in nerf to us.Nerf is easy, buffs need extensive testing.
The Cw horde will never allow us to gain more dps.Their advocate shows up in here asking for nerfs yet none of you that criticize me ,showed up and confronted him.
If you want more dps i am with you i made some suggestions about Griffon's Wrath,tactical superiority etc....Except Schweifer i did not see any of you endorsing them.
Quite the opposite.
You endorced the covered up nerf demads in Mark/ITF/KV of masqueraded CW and GWFs.....:(
By asking extremely complicated things like "dual stance " in tab with two separate functions you give free card to Cryptic to nerf the current,adequate mark.
The things you ask are very difficult to implement.While removeing CA from Mark it is extremely easy....Think!!!
So i think for a start none GF should ask for nerf to any of our powers!!Ask for buuffs ,not for nerfs!!
Cause nerfs in cryptic games come easy,buffs extremely difficult ,bugged and after quite some time.These...
I must say it out i know almost everything about this game what i must about GF /CW / SW /DC /HR /GWF /TR.
What i dont have is the req tool to defend our class cuz my eng is terrible its my 4th lang .
But i will try my best to keep cont....
This is why we have damnacious as advocate and as i see he do her job awesome.
I think he try to transalate my gibbelish to eng and he do it well.
And for this i wanted to say THX bro.
We have super smal community with GF heart so brother and sisters with shilds rise up.
I have always seen your problem. You want GF at top of paingivers with conqueror spec, like GWF. Fine. You don't want to be forced to buff other players like GWF, also fine. You don't want to be one shotted w/o block-like GWF.
My question is you already have 21k GWF, why do you want to play GF?
I play GF because I like ITF, I like KV, I like helping the team. I have always liked support classes in other games like this.
I like GF exactly how he is now.
GWF is the best melee DPS in Neverwinter. Why do people want to make GF into GWF?
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
Cause GWF is not the only DPS he i tank too....See the double standards?GWF Sent is a semi tank but also with intimidation does 15-20k damage non crit and with crit 25-40k damage.GWF Sent can take our place in parties.Sure he cannot buff ,but when he can kill twin scorpions in 15-20 secs,there is no need to.
NW is not a balanced game.
Control Wizard does not only control but it is the n1 dps.
HR is semi ranged yet the tankiest class.
GWF Sent can oneshoot people with just a proc.
etc etc...
By admitting GF only to be buffbot we castrate ourselves.
Even we take your logic there is the dps tree of Gf the Conq.It is a dps tree by definition.Since he is dps...he must at least be able to light dps.Current with the buffs all other classes took,Conq cannot outdps not even properly specced TRs..
In Mod5 the situation will be dire and most difficult.
Damnacious I like your idea of changing tab mechanic. Its silly that ppl cant read. It would mark the same at long distances with aoe mark in close with buff to party. I second your idea to tone down the ITF and KV to balance it with aditional buff mechanic. It would be so much easier to control mobs with swordmaster and maintaining mark on all mobs.
schweifer1982 you have some problems with gameplay if ur dieing on new dungeons/skirmishes. I do all without drinking potions and no ceric with KV on. Theres a secret. You are at end game so you should now it. Maximize ap gaind from block (heroic + conqueror) you will start to go under golems over the head swing to take hit on block. Insta daily... fighters recovery = full hp and 5 sec imortality if ur swordmaster. In that case even can start FiR before group of mobs and go in with enforce threat. Last boss on eSoT is just silly easy. Take all hits at block=full AP after needle attack just FiR->ITF->AoD, repeat with shield slaming and stabing. sooooo easy, man wheres your problem?
PS. Im conqueror SM pvp build
Steel and Magic
Quite simply, we are brothers-in-arms. Let's start acting like it and support one another.
So stop the 'you don't know what you're talking about', 'go back to your CW/GWF' etc. comments.
They aren't constructive and have no place in this thread. The next time it happens, regardless of the content of the rest of the post, that post will most likely be removed from this thread.
I want and need people to feel comfortable in expressing their opinion in this thread and it will not happen if they are treated in a manner that is not constructive, courteous, polite and respectful.
Take 10 seconds before you post and make sure your post is appropriate.
Knight's Valor and Into the Fray
The way I see the situation is that Knight's Valor and Into the Fray are currently used and needed as they are so that GFs have some value in parties, however, this limits the GF in how they can play their class and still be viable and of benefit to parties.
To me, this 'Best in Slot' attitude is currently a bad, yet necessary, perspective which we need to improve upon.
From my perspective, we have three choices:
I think it is logical to assume that the second option is not ideal and does not improve our situation. This leaves us with option 1. and option 3.
If we consider that not everyone WANTS to use either, or both, Knight's Valor and Into the Fray, then we must consider either:
Considering the nature of the potency of both KV and ItF, I find it difficult to believe that GFs will receive a boost to a number of other Powers and Feats that would rival that of KV and ItF, purely because that would open up too many problems with balancing GFs with other classes.
From my perspective, this leaves the second option as the most logical and the most reasonable which will likely satisfy the most players.
It is important to note here that achieving a result that is for the 'greater good' of the player base IS more important than satisfying a minority, regardless of who that minority is and whether their desires are 'better'.
Increasing Damage
The first thing I think it is most important to be aware of, and remember, is that both Guardian Fighters and Great Weapon Fighters are both BUILDS of the Fighter class.
Where the GWF build has decided to focus on damage over survivability, the GF build has chosen survivability over damage.
This essentially means that at no time should the GF ever be putting out as much damage as a pure DPS GWF and, very rarely, should a GF be doing as much damage as a pure Tank GWF. The flip side of this is that at no time should a GWF have equal survivability as a GF.
However, this should not preclude the GF from being competitive in damage and fighting capability with other classes in general, just that no GF player should really expect to be able to do as much damage as a DPS class.
From my perspective, we have three options that would enable GFs to be viable and competitive with other classes:
Now, given my prior statements regarding the maximum DPS capabilities of a GF in comparison to other classes, I think it is fair and reasonable to discount option 1.
I think that although option 2. would be beneficial for the class in general, it will not satisfy the needs of all GF players as there is a desire by some of the player base to play a DPS GF build and therefore ignoring the need to increase damage at all for the class would not be suitable.
By this logic, this would leave option 3. as the most viable and reasonable. Certainly, there would be, comparatively with other DPS classes, a noticeable difference in the DPS of a DPS built GF, however I believe an increase in Crowd Control instead would balance this out perfectly.
For the last 12+ months, GFs have survived in PVP mostly on the use of Prones, Knockbacks and Stuns. If it wasn't for our use of these, as a class, we would have been almost completely useless.
Therefore, I think that by increasing both the damage and Crowd Control capabilities of the GF would provide us with the means to be competitive, viable and valued in both PVP and PVE. In PVP our Crowd Control capabilities would make up for our lack of DPS, coupled with our increased survivability and in PVE, Crowd Control will provide another valuable option for a party to consider using, particularly in a party or situation where there is another GF, without making one or the other of the GFs an essential 'dead weight' that can't contribute anything extra.
Tab
I've already provided my suggestion on what to do with our Tab function. Given the above, I feel that it is a viable and reasonable option, particularly as it incorporates a resolution to both the issues with Knight's Valor / Into the Fray and the current lack of damage/control.
What I think we need to do now is literally go through every single aspect of the GF class and identify what areas currently work well and what needs to be improved. From there, we can then start discussing ways to specifically improve each aspect one at a time and, hopefully, come to an agreement on what those improvements will be.
This is why I believe this thread is necessary and so vitally important.
Let's not allow our class to be overlooked once again.
If we keep our posts here in a constructive and positive manner, it may very well indicate to the Developers how serious we are about changes we need to our class.
That should be simple and quick for the devs to do just in time for mod 5 and you won't necessarily break the class in the process.
*edit* Also fix Conqueror capstone so that you get 10 second 25% damage buff (non stackable)every time you crit. That way you don't need 5 stacks to do top damage after everything has died.
With the current capstone getting hit is too similar to the tactical superiority feat.
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9B0RqZyRK8E
Enjoy.
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GF has more diversing set of abilities to perform in different roles and situations. Recent accent on KV/ItF only exists because GF contribute no better that 3-10% of total damage providing same gear level in team.
Superior DPS makes clearing faster but not more interesting or challenging. If GF players were only about "feel safe" in tank shell in first half of module 3, they were all hiding in unstoppable godmode.
This idea that GFs that run KV and ITF in PvE are BUFF BOTs has problems to me. It doesn't accurately portray the play experience. The word passive has been used to describe KV and ITF GF, and that also doesn't accurately describe the play experience. I have played games with BUFF BOT characters that are passive and they are usually effectively played by sitting in the back and waiting for the encounter to be over. A GF running KV and ITF takes agro and has all the active play that corresponds to that.
When I play eLoL and eSoT with KV and ITF the play isn't passive. The fact of the matter is the GF has to be the highest working character in the group.
And let us put this into context, if you change out KV and replace it with Front Line Surge what have you really done in terms of changing the GFs play style? You maybe spam a button every 10 seconds where you didn't before, and maybe you time that to something you want to disrupt, but this is only a minor part of the play experience and doesn't reduce the GF to active or passive.
Now all this said, PvP is different, and there is a difference between play styles designed to be well timed disrupts and play styles designed to turtle, but so much of PvE is about guard time, move timing, spamming tab or rotating it in, and fitting in Tide of Iron between, that you don't become passive just because you are running KV.
If you think a ITF and KV GF that holds agro feels "passive" then that explains some people questioning the survivability and relevance of a GF. If a CW with a CW play style had ITF and KV that would probably be passive, but when the person weaving their abilities between holding agro and big damaging attacks has it, that isn't passive. Automatically you cannot change that person into a passive play style until they give up the agro holding. If there was a build designed around buffing and not holding agro and not dealing with the weaving of abilities around big attacks, that would probably be a passive BUFF BOT, but we are not that.