Suggestion: Guard math revised Spec: All This goes back to my bug report where in it I point out the change in how we are taking twice the damage through block.
Something needs to change as the current block is useless to use unless you use guarded assault and lifesteal so you don't die after a few hits in elol as currently block does little to save me now unless I get endless consumption procs(lifesteal crits).
EDIT: Also after some testing critical hits through block seem to be doing more damage than they should which may mean tenacity is not being applied to block, but this is only a suspicion. Also what could be done to make Guard worth something is to change the 80% hard cap to 85% as this is needed for pve in some situations.
EDIT 2:After testing it seems to be when you initially put up block there is a small window where guard is not engaging and your regular dr is the only thing decreasing damage done. And to add more to this problem it seems to have a higher base damage than what it is initially which is causing even more damage than just taking the hit normally. And its seems to be fast attack at wills and encounters that benefit from this and the issue of block itself not engaging right away requiring you take hits before it begins to mitigate properly.
Firstly...why is this post not a sticky eh? Tis an important feedback thread
Anyway...here be my thought on the GF class and tanking:
a) With regards to people mentioning the blocking formula, I feel with how it is then not enough importance is placed on how much defense/deflect you have since the initial dmg is reduced by block then DR etc. Perhaps a better way would be something like have the initial damage reduced first by your defense/DR and then by the block %. This would make it harder for those who think they can just sit behind their shield with lower defenses.
b) I definately appreciated the revamped GF changes that came in the last big module/patch, mainly in regards to the change to block and the much needed improvement in how much extra threat they produce from marked targets etc, this had made GF tanking a lot better. However maybe this wouldnt be a bit unbalanced but as a GF I find it a bit annoying that our marks from Enforced Threat etc get removed the second we get hit without our shield up. This is an issue for me cos unless you just stand there with perma block setup and stab from behind your shield (rather a limited way to play a GF) you need to use encounters, which leaves u vulnerable to gettin hit and there goes all your marked targets.
c) Another concern I have with the recent changes to GF is the changes to Knight's Valour and Into the Fray. I feel the two have become some sort of "cheese build" that many players feel they have to use to play a GF in a party, or just to be a good tank, which is really not the case if you know what you are doing. That coupled with the attitude of several players who expect GFs just to be "buff bots" in the party with those skills so they can just mindlessy charge into enemies and not to have to worry so much about dying. My last issue with Knights Valour is I feel there is not enough risk these days in GFs using it as they can happily soak up large amounts of damage from other people in the party without much effect on their health. Therefore a couple of suggestions people may disagree with are:
- I'm not 100% on the calculation for the dmg boost for Into The Fray, but when I hear people say they can give 40%+ boost it worries me. My understanding that it was 50% of your DR (from defense only). Either way the boost it gives at the moment seems a little high.
- Maybe reduce the amount of damage ignored that Knight's Valour gives to other players, say to 25% or some way of making the GF using it take slightly more damage from other players. This might encourage more careful use of it and not let other players in the party think they can run into enemies by themselves cos they wont die with KV on.
d) I am also against being able to perma-block, it kind of takes away the challenge of playing the class such as choosing when to block and having to stop blocking to use encounters or tide of iron to ensure you dont run out of block when its needed. That said I think the number of GFs able to do this is a minority, but for me it is a balance issue in the way with TRs able to stealth kill things without even havin to worry about getting attacked or CWs being able to control everythin around them 90% of the time.
e) I think other than that I am happy with how GFs are, just not so much how people treat them in most groups is all. Unfortunately the main issue I have with GFs in groups is down to players attitude to them in groups, in that many dont care for their role and that many GF players are actually trying to tank. This however is mostly down to how unbalanced certain classes are the game mechanics that allow people to get away with it a lot of the time, so there is not much of a penalty for rushing in ahead of the GF, who is the only one (or maybe a tank GWF) that should be able to get away with it.
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damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
edited October 2014
BUGS
Since October 2nd patch, Damage Resistance and Tenacity are not properly affecting the remaining 20% of damage received after Blocking/Guarding and Powers that consist of multiple attacks such as Crushing Surge do not properly respect Damage Resistance and Tenacity while Blocking / Guarding.
Knight's valor does not buff companions / pet.
ITF will power-boost random passers-by in PE.
Grim Tactician Armor is incorrectly priced, sharing the same pricing as Profound Armor.
Take Measure Feat does not work properly at all.
Crushing Surge’s third strike doesn’t proc normal Lifedrinker enchantment and maybe other enchantments too.
In PVP and may be in PVE, while Guarding / Blocking, Critical Hits deal more damage than they should, particularly more than if the GF is not Guarding.
When Guarding / Blocking, damage is not being immediately reduced properly.
SUGGESTIONS
Knight’s Valor should not stack with itself.
Tab Mark:
Increase the debuff by another 5-10% but remove the combat advantage bonus as it ruins the whole meaning of circling the enemy or for 4 seconds marked target deals no damage to other players but is a control power for purposes of resistance and make the mark blue to stand out.
Animation / cast time needs to be faster.
Change Tab to an "offensive" and "defensive" stance. Offensive Stance operates like "Into the Fray" and it buffs damage/run speed and grants stamina regen. This would operate like an "aura" with 100% uptime around the GF for 50'. The Defensive stance would be "Knights Valor" but given a reduced range to 60-80' with again 100% uptime. Changing Stances puts a 8-10 second CD on the ability to change stances again (basically removes constant swapping but enables swapping for certain situations).
Basic Marks: Applied via encounters/at wills etc should DECREASE the damage dealt to anyone EXCEPT the person who marked them. Because of this, you can remove the addition of combat advantage to mark. So in all Mark - increases the damage the "mark-er" does to the "mark-ee" by 20% and the mark-ee deals 20% LESS damage to anyone BUT the "Mark-er”.
When a target is marked and attacks a teammate (not the Mark-er) the GF is given the ability to press "tab" again to trigger a special attack interrupting (or even stunning) the target. This could be a short "lunge" like Threat Rush, or it could be a flat out melee strike only (like griffons wrath).
GFs need a damage boost to be competitive and balanced with other classes.
GFs need increases in their survivability as compared to other classes to properly reflect their role as a primary receiver of damage / tank.
New Mod 5 sets need to provide more Deflect, Hit Points, Damage Resistance, Regeneration, Recovery, Crit, Lifesteal and better / increased set bonuses.
Crushing Surge animation needs to be reworked as it may seem ‘buggy’.
The current amount of damage that Guard / Block reduces needs to be increased to perhaps 85% instead of 80%.
The way Guard / Block currently reduces damage should be changed so that Damage Resistance should take effect first and then Block, so as to reflect and reward the importance of maintaining a high Defense.
Marks from sources such as Enforced Threat need to last longer than after the first time the GF is hit by the Marked target.
The bonus to damage from Into the Fray needs to be reduced.
Ally damage taken by the GF while using Knight’s Valor needs to be reduced to promote greater responsibility and sense of risk for the affected ally.
The facility for GFs to gain a permanent Block needs to be reduced to assist with class balancing.
COMMENTS
GF damage has always been a joke and still is a joke.It would be nice to do damage ourselves.
Current Tab Mark offer great utility, especially when combined with Enhanced Mark and Knight’s Valor.
The curent mark is really great and promotes a feeling of tactical gameplay.
Guardian Fighters NEED the +20% damage to marked targets becasue frankly our weapon damage should not be as low as it is, so I feel the 20% boost merely makes GFs deal the damage they NORMALLY should. So Keep 20% damage to marked targets.
Changes to Guard and Threat in Mod 4 were good changes that have made tanking a lot better.
PREVIEW
BUGS
GF offhand dont Give AC bonus shoud be Equip: +8 AC or +9 cuz legendary status .
Since October 2nd patch, Damage Resistance and Tenacity are not affecting the remaining 20% of damage received after Blocking/Guarding.
Ferocious Reaction does not work.
Terrifying Impact prones CC Immune targets.
SUGGESTIONS
GF Draconic Templar sets provide too much Defense so the diminishing returns for Defense need to be adjusted to give greater returns to Damage Resistance per point.
Artifact belts etc. don’t favour GF stats with their Ability bonuses. More GF focussed stats need to be introduced to make these items useful and attractive for GFs.
Artifact cloaks need to have stats useful for GF such as Regeneration, Hit Points and Deflect.
Golden Dragon Shield needs to have a Special Feature that reflects it’s nature as a shield, i.e. giving bonuses to Shield Talent or Guarded Assault and needs to have Defensive Enchantment slots rather than an Offensive Enchantment slot.
Now replace GF SoS and KV AP generation so we are viable again.
Mmm I agree with removing the combat advantage feature of marked targets to an extent as it does take away some of the challenge away from playing smarter for the GF/tank to position enemies and the rest of the party to also. It also makes the purpose of certain feats for HR and CW rather useless and the whole point of a TR who is suppose to be the master of CA.
I'm not sure about boosting our damage that much however, as like DCs in healing/buff spec the purpose of us being in a group is not to be a damage dealer and we shouldnt need to do deal high dmg to keep threat due to our improved threat skills and mark system. However perhaps a review of a DPS feat tree for the GF could be good, similar to like you are doing with DCs at the moment. However I do feel that GFs who choose to go the DPS route should have severly limited ability to tank to make it more of a tactical choice, maybe by reducing the amount of threat and defense they have but at the cost of more damage. The stance switching with tab could work well in this also (tho reminds me very much of warriors in WoW )
Bug or not it should remain..
or GWF HR and TR will forever remain untouchable
Right now we have a huge potential in terms of damage .. Some GF are an example, find the trade-offs between attack and defense, and build your own ideal character ^^
(i needed the translate for it, so I apologize for grammatical nonsense ^^)
| Cìrdan - GF | Cìrdan The Lightbringer - OP |
< Guild: Pugno Fiammante >
For everyone that don't know:
Combat Advantage=+15% damage.
For eveyone of you that insist to "rework" or whatever Mark,you basically asking a 15% damage nerf to the already stragling Gf!! :mad:
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nezraalMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2014
Can someone re-investigate the effect of AoDx2, for say a class with 40 DR% and your RI at 38% and see how much damage it's doing at crit and non-crit while the target is marked? Keep the GF gs at 20k to determine the full effect.
veilofentropyMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 13Arc User
edited October 2014
Hi guys!
For a while now I’ve wanted to post a few of my personal ideas and perspective on our class and get your feedback on it.
Just a quick note on some topics discussed so far, namely the reworking of the Tab mechanic:
I love the current Tab mechanic to Mark at range. As stated by others, I love the facility to strategically Mark and pull in PVE with it, often Marking multiple targets, then using Threatening Rush on a mob followed by ET. I find that this rotation and use provides me with extensive capacity to position mobs facing a specific direction (away from the party), particularly with cone effects. I think that the current mechanic works very well and provides a large amount of bonuses that compliment both PVP and PVE. In PVP I’ve found that routinely Marking all targets has a significant effect on the capacity of myself and team to efficiently dispatch enemies. Particularly for PVP, I would not like the capacity to Mark and debuff at range to be removed. However, I do like the concept of ‘stances’ (as I’m an old ‘craft player) yet traditional and current D&D doesn’t really operate in that manner. That being said, I do believe that Tab could be modified, particularly when combining it with something similar to a traditional D&D taunt using a Strength based Intimidation Skill Check to effectively scare/threaten/enrage an opponent into rash action or inaction.
In my experience, and from what I’ve read quite often, there needs to be some rebalancing of the GF, particularly the DPS side of the class, to enable GFs to be more viable and competitive in PVP; especially now that SoS has been reworked. I'm a big advocate for GFs not being a DPS class yet our current capabilities leave us a bit behind some other classes.
With a view to this, I have compiled a list of changes I think might be appropriate for the class going forward with respect to balancing it with both PVP and PVE and comparatively against other classes. However, I think that a lot of changes might need to be discussed extensively but not acted upon necessarily until Mod5 changes to other classes have been released. This is purely as it would be rather pointless to push for changes to balance GFs against other classes that are currently undergoing ‘balancing’ themselves.
Suggestion: Tab Mechanic Spec: All Pressing Tab now functions as a ‘War Cry’ which inspires the GF and party to greater acts of heroism by providing a morale bonus which increases the Damage, Damage Resistance and Run Speed of the GF and party members within 10 feet by 5% and grants 1% of the character’s Hit Points as temporary Hit Points for 6 seconds (1/2 Round). This fierce shout intimidates all enemies within 10 feet, temporarily Marking them for 6 seconds. Any single enemy specifically targeted directly by the GF when using Tab is now Marked (as current). All enemies Marked receive a debuff and take 10% more damage from all sources for 6 seconds and attackers receive Combat Advantage against them for 6 seconds.
Suggestion: Enhanced Mark Spec: All Marked targets now build threat while Marked, and at each Rank, you generate +75% more threat when striking them and increases the Damage, Debuff and Damage Resistance by +5%, range by +5 feet, temporary Hit Points by +1% and duration by +3 seconds. When used in conjunction with Tab Mark, at Rank 3 this would total: +225% threat. +20% Damage and Damage Resistance. Targets take +25% damage from all sources. 25 feet range. Temporary Hit Points 4% of maximum. Run Speed of +5%. Duration of 15 seconds and Combat Advantage.
Suggestion: Combat Superiority Spec: All At Rank 1, for 5 seconds, deal +5% additional damage to foes after they hit you. At Rank 2 and 3 each, increase additional damage dealt by +5% for a total at Rank 3 of 15%; increased from 10%.
Suggestion: Knight’s Valor Spec: All Knight’s Valor now increases Damage Resistance by +5% at Rank 1, 2 and 3. This is a total of 15%; down from +20%.
Suggestion: Into the Fray
Spec: All Into the Fray now increases the Damage of the GF and party by +13% of the GF’s Damage Resistance at Rank 1, +25% at Rank 2 and +32% at Rank 3. This is a total at Rank 3 of 70%; down from 75%.
Suggestion: Distracting Shield
Spec: All When you Guard an attack, your attacker briefly deals 2/4/6/8/10% less damage; increased from 1/2/3/4/5%.
Suggestion: Shielded Resurgence
Spec: All When affected by a control power, gain 2/4/6% of your Hit Points over 10 seconds. Can happen once every 30 seconds; increased from 2/3/4%.
Suggestion: Powerful Attack
Spec: All Increase the damage of your Encounter and At Will powers by 3/6/9/12/15%; increased from 2/4/5/8/10%.
Suggestion: Weapon Mastery
Spec: All Increase your Critical Chance by 2/4/6%; increased from 1/2/3%.
Suggestion: Pin Down
Spec: All The Prone, Stun and Slow duration of your Powers are increased by .2/.4/.6 seconds; now affecting Stun and Slow and increasing from .1/.2/.3 seconds.
Suggestion: Reinforced Surge
Spec: Conqueror Frontline Surge now leaves targets Prone or Stunned for an additional .2/.4/.6/.8/1 seconds, and deals 1/2/3/4/5% more damage; now affecting Stunned targets and duration increased from .1/.2/.3/.4/.5 seconds.
Suggestion: Stunning Flourish
Spec: Conqueror Swordmaster Flourish has an extra 2/4/6/8/10% chance to Crit and Stuns for .2/.4/.6/.8/1 seconds on last hit; increased from 1/2/3/4/5%.
Suggestion: Swap Plate Agility Tier 1 with Shield Defense Tier 2
Spec: Protection Swap the Feat Plate Agility around with Shield Defense and increase the amount of Deflect Chance gained from Plate Agility to 2/4/6/8/10%; increased from 1/2/3/4/5%.
Suggestion: Surging Tide
Spec: Tactician Tide of Iron’s debuff also reduces the amount of physical damage they deal to you by 3/6/9/12/15%; increased from 2/4/6/8/10%.
Suggestion: Terrifying Menace
Spec: Tactician Anvil of Doom now has a 20/40/60/80/100% chance to interrupt the target and stun them for 2 seconds; increased from 1 second.
Suggestion: Ferocious Reaction
Spec: Iron Vanguard When your Hit Points drop below 15% you regain 5% of your Hit Points, the foe that hit you takes that much damage and you gain Damage Resistance for 5 seconds. Once every 3 minutes. At each of Rank 2 and 3, Cooldown – 30 seconds, regain +5% of maximum Hit Points and Hit Point activate +75%. At Rank 3 this reduces cooldown to 2 minutes; decreased from 3 minutes and increased Hit Point gain by 5% up from 10%.
Suggestion: Enforced Threat
Spec: All Decrease animation / cast time very slightly.
Suggestion: Crushing Surge
Spec: All Decrease animation / cast time very slightly.
Suggestion: Villain’s Menace
Spec: All Decrease animation / cast time significantly.
Suggestion: Supremacy of Steel
Spec: All Increase the portion of damage reflected by a significant amount, preferably to 80%+ of the damage dealt.
Suggestion: Enduring Warrior
Spec: All When you kill an enemy you heal yourself for 2% of your maximum Hit Points. At each of Rank 2 and 3, increase the heal amount by +1%.
Suggestion: Heroic Encounters
Spec: All Improve the chance for GFs to obtain loot, particularly through taking damage and / or Threat.
Comments: Tab Function
Spec: All I believe that although the current functionality works well, there is the opportunity to improve it so that there are greater benefits for each spec in both PVP and PVE. I feel that modifying the current function to be similar to a ‘War Cry’ will work very well with the style of the class for each spec, with the proposed changes adding very little to the class overall in terms of increasing damage and survivability. These proposed changes instead distributes the GF’s current capabilities so that each spec can benefit from increases to their capability regardless of spec and Powers used and can be enhanced if certain choices in Passive and Encounter Powers are used. I like the idea that a GF would be able to produce a ‘cry’ that will invigorate allies and demoralise enemies at the same time as it reflects the Leadership type role of the class. I believe this modification of the Tab function should include Combat Advantage as it represents the demoralising and intimidating impact of the ‘cry’ on enemies and their subsequent inability to consider risks to their flanks through reckless positioning.
Comments: Knight’s Valor
Spec: All I believe Knight’s Valor currently affords the GF perhaps too much Damage Resistance and should be reduced by a very small amount as it is currently relatively easy for a GF to overcap their Damage Resistance to 85% and, if it is possible to reach this cap, it should be as a significant tradeoff of other stats, giving the opportunity for the GF to set reaching the cap as a significant goal. This change would also affect the current perception that Knight’s Valor is a necessary Power to be using in both PVP and PVE. With the proposed changes to Tab, a reduction in Knight’s Valor would be necessary to ensure the stacking of both Tab and Knight’s Valor does not become unbalanced.
Comments: Into the Fray
Spec: All I believe Into the Fray should have the Damage bonus reduced by a small amount as it currently grants too much damage to party members. Similar to Knight’s Valor, this would affect the perception that Into the Fray is a necessary Power to use in both PVP and PVE. With the proposed changes to Tab, a reduction in Into the Fray’s damage bonus would be necessary to ensure that the stacking of both Tab and Into the Fray does not become unbalanced.
Comments: Damage
Spec: All Currently, the GF is one of the lowest damage dealing classes in the game. Although GFs should not have the capability to deal as much damage necessarily as pure DPS classes, the current damage capability of the GF needs to be improved through increasing certain Feats to ensure that the GF is still a viable and competitive class for PVP when comparing against other classes. Overall suggested changes to Feats and Powers are minimal and, although cumulatively those changes seem like a substantial increase in damage, the actual increase due to limitations of accessibility of those Feats and Powers at one time is slight but meaningful.
Comments: Crowd Control
Spec: All Currently, the GF is a class that deals minimal damage, particularly when compared to other classes. Although the GF should not deal as much damage as a pure DPS class, the GF still requires some methods of ensuring they are viable and competitive in PVP. By increasing the duration of Prones and adding the capability for Feats to also affect the duration of Stuns, GFs will have the facility of being competitive, viable and useful in PVP without the necessity for drastically increasing their damage capability.
Comments: Healing
Spec: All Currently, the GF has one of the least facilities to heal themselves out of all the classes, with only one Daily Power, two situational Passives and one situational Feat that actually Heal the GF. Small changes to these existing Powers and Feats will assist in ensuring the GF is capable of surviving with the aid of a DC more easily in PVE and facilitate the capacity of the GF to survive one versus one in PVP.
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damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
edited October 2014
My apologies guys! The above post by Veilofentropy is actually mine. I forgot I was logged on to my other account when I posted.
Well if we all had your attitude snappa then nothing would ever change eh Having spoken to our GF advocate in game I can tell you he does listen and does care for the class to be improved, but obviously can't accept all comments and suggestions.
One more mention about the mark mechanic however. Here is what I feel it should do:
- Keep current extra threat gain.
- Remove the combat advantage it gives
- Keep the -DR to targets it gives for both the GF and party members.
- Make marking more reliable so not removed the moment we take damage when not blocking.
The one thing that hinders me the most is long animations. They are uselessly long, so long that they are basically cast animations. I don't recall a proper game out there that has the tank cast abilities. I find this much more important than anything else - the flow and feel. Because of these casts, it is often frustrating - most mobs jump at you with some hard hitting ability and you have to block right away. Blocking *right away* means you can't round the mobs up properly and position them so the red telegraphs don't hinder the party - a tank should be able to position the mobs fast, before the party has to move. There's often times where I have to sit in block for so long that I can't find a window to cast anything else.
So the tank seems awfully slow and clunky as a result. No tank should have casts, it should all be instant.
@damnacious,
I think your suggestions are fair. I like how you're keeping the intent of the glass to guard and tank, but increasing damage to be better able to keep aggro and tank effectively (because we all know how irritating it is when SWs and CWs pull the mob away from you and start dying).
schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited October 2014
Suggestion: Knight’s Valor Spec: All Knight’s Valor now increases Damage Resistance by +5% at Rank 1, 2 and 3. This is a total of 15%; down from +20%.
Suggestion: Into the Fray
Spec: All Into the Fray now increases the Damage of the GF and party by +13% of the GF’s Damage Resistance at Rank 1, +25% at Rank 2 and +32% at Rank 3. This is a total at Rank 3 of 70%; down from 75%.
NOOOOOOOOO this is the thin thread to keep GF in Dungeons .
Any move will kik us out from any PT .
We are only need cuz of this two encounters.
Before nerf try to ask for buffs we GFs have the worst survivability and DPS in the game .
Bit Negative feedback : You are our Class advocate or our enemy?
What is your goal to keep us out of pve?
I am sure there will no effect on pvp cuz i dont use KV or ITF on pvp nor perma block and i have succes in dpvp.
But before you poost somthing like this others play this game not just for pvp like y.
Now take a look on GF after mod 5 worst DPS worst defensive mech the only thing left is KV and ITF.
Now DC can make more dps then some dps class try to ask total rework for GF cuz its not fit in the current game its total outdated . CW life steal king also a killing machine in pvp and pve .
HR the real wolverine from X-men or brutal DPS if he is an archer.
DC awesome DPS healer debuffer .
TR awesome single and modarate aoe dps also he can one shoot any one .
GWF brutal beast another AOE Vampire high dps and good in pvp too.
SW is realy nice DPS and have awesome LS agan and we dont know nothing about her new paragon path i know this will be OP too.
Those are mod 5 where do you see GF ? What territory he can shine ? He have the wors self healing and you want to ask for this buff?
Suggestion: Enduring Warrior
Spec: All
When you kill an enemy you heal yourself for 2% of your maximum Hit Points. At each of Rank 2 and 3, increase the heal amount by +1%.
can i ask you have y ever played some dungeon? How many adds do y kill in one run ? 20-30 ,omg nobody slot this . Why dont you see good suggestions ? I already told y we need rework on this and many our skills feats.
What we need is this :Enduring Warrior Give you 5% Life Steal and at each of Rank+ 2%.
Or just try to ask for total rework GF - Paladin.
I am sure this will help too .
NOOOOOOOOO this is the thin thread to keep GF in Dungeons .
Any move will kik us out from any PT .
We are only need cuz of this two encounters.
I thought of that buddy, that is why, when used with my proposed Tab function, the capability is now the same, if not slightly improved. However, if you also slot Enhanced Mark, you will actually be even more better off than now.
It's just that i thought that this way, it gives people the option to still gain some of the benefits of KV and ItF as a part of the Tab function and improving it's usefulness while not using KV and / or ItF and still retain some use for KV and ItF too. Just now each player would have more choices on what they want to do, without facing the supposed BiS perspective some hold regarding KV and ItF.
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damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
Bit Negative feedback : You are our Class advocate or our enemy?
What is your goal to keep us out of pve?
I am sure there will no effect on pvp cuz i dont use KV or ITF on pvp nor perma block and i have succes in dpvp.
But before you poost somthing like this others play this game not just for pvp like y.
Now take a look on GF after mod 5 worst DPS worst defensive mech the only thing left is KV and ITF.
Now DC can make more dps then some dps class try to ask total rework for GF cuz its not fit in the current game its total outdated . CW life steal king also a killing machine in pvp and pve .
HR the real wolverine from X-men or brutal DPS if he is an archer.
DC awesome DPS healer debuffer .
TR awesome single and modarate aoe dps also he can one shoot any one .
GWF brutal beast another AOE Vampire high dps and good in pvp too.
SW is realy nice DPS and have awesome LS agan and we dont know nothing about her new paragon path i know this will be OP too.
Those are mod 5 where do you see GF ? What territory he can shine ? He have the wors self healing and you want to ask for this buff? can i ask you have y ever played some dungeon? how many adds do y kill in one run ? 20-30 omg nobody slot this . Why dont you see good suggestion i already told y we need rework on this and many our skills feats
Buddy, this is my personal opinion. It will be included in my weekly report just like everyone else's. As a player i am also entitled to express my opinion. However, my personal opinion has no relevance as to my capability to collect and collate your feedback and submit a report on it.
As to whether I PVE or not, you can rest assured I PVE. I party daily with players mainly from the Legit Community and sometimes, when I want a challenge, I will PUG.
The changes i personally propose are designed to enhance both PVP and PVE game play, not just one over the other.
If you read the rest of what I propose, you will see that your concerns over a 'nerf' to KV and ItF are unfounded, particularly as what we would lose from KV and ItF we gain on the Tab function and, if we slot Enhanced Mark, we would actually be better off. That, however, leaves players with a multitude of choice as to whether to slot KV and / or ItF and / or Enhanced Mark or any other Power instead.
While changes I propose to Powers such as Enduring Warrior are small, it is also good to remember that although we want improvements to our class, reaching for the sun like Icarus will likely get us burned. I believe that although we need improvements, it is good to work out what the class needs and how much and compare it to other classes and how it all fits in together.
If you also consider the proposed changes to Powers such as Crushing Surge, Shielded Resurgence and Ferocious Reaction too, you will see that overall, the healing capabilities of GFs would actually be modestly improved on what they are now to assist in increasing our survivability.
Making the argument that KV and ItF should not be changed at all as they are essential to GFs simply serves to highlight my concerns that they are too potent as they are currently and are somewhat regarded as "BiS" and that those Powers need to have some redistribution so they aren't the only choice for GFs in either PVP or PVE.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
Buddy, this is my personal opinion. It will be included in my weekly report just like everyone else's. As a player i am also entitled to express my opinion. However, my personal opinion has no relevance as to my capability to collect and collate your feedback and submit a report on it.
As to whether I PVE or not, you can rest assured I PVE. I party daily with players mainly from the Legit Community and sometimes, when I want a challenge, I will PUG.
The changes i personally propose are designed to enhance both PVP and PVE game play, not just one over the other.
If you read the rest of what I propose, you will see that your concerns over a 'nerf' to KV and ItF are unfounded, particularly as what we would lose from KV and ItF we gain on the Tab function and, if we slot Enhanced Mark, we would actually be better off. That, however, leaves players with a multitude of choice as to whether to slot KV and / or ItF and / or Enhanced Mark or any other Power instead.
While changes I propose to Powers such as Enduring Warrior are small, it is also good to remember that although we want improvements to our class, reaching for the sun like Icarus will likely get us burned. I believe that although we need improvements, it is good to work out what the class needs and how much and compare it to other classes and how it all fits in together.
If you also consider the proposed changes to Powers such as Crushing Surge, Shielded Resurgence and Ferocious Reaction too, you will see that overall, the healing capabilities of GFs would actually be modestly improved on what they are now to assist in increasing our survivability.
Making the argument that KV and ItF should not be changed at all as they are essential to GFs simply serves to highlight my concerns that they are too potent as they are currently and are somewhat regarded as "BiS" and that those Powers need to have some redistribution so they aren't the only choice for GFs in either PVP or PVE.
As you know the new dungeon type are one shooting dungeons where FR and EW dont do anything i have 70 k hp and 60% dr and if i dont use block for 1 sec i am oneshooted by HR mob or golem or bosses or even dragonlings can 2 shoot me this have nothing to do with good GF or bad GF 1 mistake and you are dead .
Any of your suggestion wont help us just think about what i say for 5 min GF will be on the same spot as in mod3 from lets say from 1 mill ppl only 1-3 % will be GF agan.
Do you know why are the GF on the worst spot cuz of LS and DPS any other class in mod 5 have high dps and we all know more dps more HP back . GF lack of both cuz you can gain LS from def slot or pets this is your only option.
Regen dont help in pve .
@damnacious,
I think your suggestions are fair. I like how you're keeping the intent of the glass to guard and tank, but increasing damage to be better able to keep aggro and tank effectively (because we all know how irritating it is when SWs and CWs pull the mob away from you and start dying).
Thanks buddy! I really tried to find some balance with what I thought needed to be improved and how, without going overboard or ignoring the needs of both PVP and PVE.
Essentially, there are small improvements to damage, mitigation, self healing, crowd control, party buffing and general utility. These proposed changes are small yet they all add up, even despite the fact we wont be able to use everything all at the same time!
I almost never have problems with holding aggro / HATE though so I haven't often experienced having to strive to regain aggro.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
Thanks buddy! I really tried to find some balance with what I thought needed to be improved and how, without going overboard or ignoring the needs of both PVP and PVE.
Essentially, there are small improvements to damage, mitigation, self healing, crowd control, party buffing and general utility. These proposed changes are small yet they all add up, even despite the fact we wont be able to use everything all at the same time!
I almost never have problems with holding aggro / HATE though so I haven't often experienced having to strive to regain aggro.
Belive me SW fury can pull the agro from(on boss figth) u if he use IF set.
I experienced this many times but mosty i play with greaded players.
All my friends are ower 20 k perfect enchants Purple pets arti weapon/belt + legend arti.
I have this luxury too but the point is i feel my self like i have 5 k GS.
As you know the new dungeon type are one shooting dungeons where FR and EW dont do anything i have 70 k hp and 60% dr and if i dont use block for 1 sec i am oneshooted by HR mob or golem or bosses or even dragonlings can 2 shoot me this have nothing to do with good GF or bad GF 1 mistake and you are dead .
Any of your suggestion wont help us just think about what i say for 5 min GF will be on the same spot as in mod3 from lets say from 1 mill ppl only 1-3 % will be GF agan.
Do you know why are the GF on the worst spot cuz of LS and DPS any other class in mod 5 have high dps and we all know more dps more HP back . GF lack of both cuz you can gain LS from def slot or pets this is your only option.
Regen dont help in pve .
You get one-shotted in PVE with 60% DR and 70k HP? Is that including Block? Given your comments before about KV, I take it this also includes KV too?
I find that although Regeneration isn't fantastic, it does help to some degree. There are few classes that actually gain a bonus of any sort to their Lifesteal as a Power or Class Feature. Other classes may have more DPS capability than us yet, for the most part, they are DPS classes and the GF is not. That seems somewhat reasonable to me to expect that GFs won't have the same capacity to DPS as a pure DPS class.
Currently, EW and FeR are a bit lackluster, yet FeR will be given an improvement:
Ferocious Reaction: This class feature now deals 25% of your HP in damage (up from 10%) and heals you for 25% (up from 10%).
Ferocious Reaction: This class feature will now correctly activate at the correct health threshold.
Ferocious Reaction: This class feature will now correctly reactivate after the first time it activates.
If you also have Improved Reaction Feated, that would give FeR 35% of your maximum Hit Points as a heal. If you even consider my modest 25% (thought of before i saw that post by Crush), that is still significant. A 35% heal to you with 70% HP would heal you for 24.5k HP every 3 minutes and my initially proposed total of 25% would heal you for 17.5k HP every 2 minutes.
Your proposal of changing EW to provide up to 11% Lifesteal would mean that a GF could easily obtain over 20% Lifesteal. That is pretty enormous, even factoring in how much damage we might do as a low damage spec, that would certainly feel very over-powered I think. I could be wrong though!
If you are being one-shotted then having more Lifesteal (even 20+%) is extremely unlikely to be of much assistance to you.
If you also read about the other changes I proposed, you would notice that I have included an increase in Deflect too from the Plate Agility Feat. This would produce a very minimal (almost negligible) improvement in our mitigation, yet everything adds up!
The thing to also bear in mind is that now we also have SWs in parties that heal and DCs that are quite capable too. Crush initially indicated in his Mod4 posts about GF changes that he wanted GFs to 'need' a healer of some sort in the party and therefore, proposing changes that are designed to make a healer of any sort obsolete, I believe, is unlikely to be implemented.
I will be including your proposal for the change in EW to the Development Team in next week's report so they will hopefully consider it!
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
You get one-shotted in PVE with 60% DR and 70k HP? Is that including Block? Given your comments before about KV, I take it this also includes KV too?
I find that although Regeneration isn't fantastic, it does help to some degree. There are few classes that actually gain a bonus of any sort to their Lifesteal as a Power or Class Feature. Other classes may have more DPS capability than us yet, for the most part, they are DPS classes and the GF is not. That seems somewhat reasonable to me to expect that GFs won't have the same capacity to DPS as a pure DPS class.
Currently, EW and FeR are a bit lackluster, yet FeR will be given an improvement:
If you also have Improved Reaction Feated, that would give FeR 35% of your maximum Hit Points as a heal. If you even consider my modest 25% (thought of before i saw that post by Crush), that is still significant. A 35% heal to you with 70% HP would heal you for 24.5k HP every 3 minutes and my initially proposed total of 25% would heal you for 17.5k HP every 2 minutes.
Your proposal of changing EW to provide up to 11% Lifesteal would mean that a GF could easily obtain over 20% Lifesteal. That is pretty enormous, even factoring in how much damage we might do as a low damage spec, that would certainly feel very over-powered I think. I could be wrong though!
If you are being one-shotted then having more Lifesteal (even 20+%) is extremely unlikely to be of much assistance to you.
If you also read about the other changes I proposed, you would notice that I have included an increase in Deflect too from the Plate Agility Feat. This would produce a very minimal (almost negligible) improvement in our mitigation, yet everything adds up!
The thing to also bear in mind is that now we also have SWs in parties that heal and DCs that are quite capable too. Crush initially indicated in his Mod4 posts about GF changes that he wanted GFs to 'need' a healer of some sort in the party and therefore, proposing changes that are designed to make a healer of any sort obsolete, I believe, is unlikely to be implemented.
I will be including your proposal for the change in EW to the Development Team in next week's report so they will hopefully consider it!
Just in case if y think i am lie to y.
Now do the math HR melee can have 99% easy LS .
IF GF have 20% its op ? i dont think so we have soo low dmg vs HR melee.
Y can try to build up your char like me and Golems and rangers etccc.... will one soot you w/o KV or KC & w/o block. The do almost 300k dmg your only have chance if you can deflect it but GF have 0 deflection even if you build on deflect you will be oneshooted cuz you will have low hp (around 40k)but anyway you can only have (halfing bonus included+dex belt) 32-35% deflect capped .
You dont see my poit of view .
I am in the endgame and my team mates are too but they already outshine my GF in every corner the only reason i feel my self a little bit usefull is KV and ITF .
Non of you suggestion will help the end game GF .
Ofc they dont maked GF OP or broken no they maked other classes broken and OP .
What i want is to climb up to him.
Any way our block is official mess now today i was in E.SOT and the last boss hit on me Blocked 21k dmg .
Crush initially indicated in his Mod4 posts about GF changes that he wanted GFs to 'need' a healer of some sort in the party and therefore, proposing changes that are designed to make a healer of any sort obsolete, I believe, is unlikely to be implemented.
The big deal is no one else need heals only GF . No one else need controll only GF. The current thinking is now :
Deal BIG BIG DPS and you can outheal any incoming dmg via LS.
Ask your self why?
Also after mod 5 Temp SW is overnerfed i dont expect such a great numbers of SW healers.
If other classes need heal too mybe i say agan mybe GF will be needed and KV + IF nerf can come but this will not happen so i say agan .
No need for those nerfs.
damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
edited October 2014
I understand what you are saying, yet I don't think you've read what i've proposed. If the changes to ItF, KV, EM and Tab are implemented as I propose, how is that a 'nerf'?
Even if you don't slot EM then you still end up with EXACTLY the same benefits as you would if you were to use KV and ItF as they are now, EXCEPT, you would be better off.
A number of my GFs are in end content too.
Certainly the boss at the end of Epic SoT will likely hit you for 21k while Blocking as the boss can hit for 244k. The fact you are taking less than 10% of that damage indicates the Blocking mechanism is working as exactly as the Developers want it to. Don't get me wrong, i'm not overly fond of the idea of taking damage while Blocking, yet it is what the Developers want and it isn't overly unreasonable and i sincerely doubt that is going to change anytime in the near future.
As to my proposals not helping the GF in end content, that is entirely your perspective and you're certainly within your right to express it. However, I thought the changes I proposed would be a rather decent improvement on what we currently have now without becoming unbalanced.
As for HRs having more Lifesteal than GFs, well I don't think it's necessarily the Lifesteal that is the problem but other Powers and features. HRs are also currently in the process of being 'rebalanced', the same as other classes, so I'm not sure if comparing GFs to current classes is really the wisest thing to do.
If, as you propose, GFs obtained the facility to have ~20% Lifesteal, not including ToD boons, which could easily put it closer to 25%, GFs would essentially be healing themselves for about the same amount as they would when using Fighter's Recovery (FiR). As it is entirely possible for a GF to deal a 100k+ AoD, that would mean they could be healing themselves every 30 seconds on average for something similar to 25k HP. This doesn't seem over-powered to you? Let's change the scenario a bit and put your proposal into a PVP context. What that would do is essentially allow the GF to maintain Block almost indefinitely, yet assuredly for a substantial duration, and then constantly heal themselves to full easily by delivering one or two attacks. With that in mind, do you think the Developers would not decide to change that really quickly because it is unbalanced?
As for being one-shotted by Golems etc. That is intentional on the part of the Developers I assume. I really don't believe it is intended for any class at this stage to be able to simply take the damage and walk away from it. That is one of the reasons why GFs have a desired role in parties now - we can Block.
Complaining about new content style as a GF confuses my brain. Of all the content that has ever existed for NW in its prime, the new style content is the most tailored for the tanky GF. "this have nothing to do with good GF or bad GF 1 mistake and you are dead." First off it doesn't take 1 mistake it takes several, and it rarely happens when played by good GF. Rare meaning I do 4 eLoL or eSoTs in a night and maybe I die 1 time on average (with 0 being common) with random pickup groups and no DC, and even when you do die it is random and not systematic. You just shake it off and go again. In old content you could die on an encounter, and it usually meant you were going to die again, but as a GF in eSoT and eLoL when you die it means almost nothing about what will happen to you on the next attempt. You just put on your "butthurt" face and go kick the mobs butt, pretty confident this next run won't involve you dieing.
A GF trivializes eSot and eLoL so much that there is no concept of a failed run with a good one in a group. I have it on authority from friends that have pugged those without a good GF that groups can and do fail--meaning people wipe enough times that people bail--, but you won't ever see that or have that with a good GF in the group. Most members of the other classes can't say that, and I certainly could never say that prior to eSoT and eLoL.
I was just serfing the nw forum.And my eye felt to this thread.
I am in horror.
I will be crystal clear.
First of all....
1)How Damancious became GF advocate?In the long days of the absolute loneliness and obscurity of Gf as a class in mod2 and after,i never saw the name of the current Gf advocate,ever pops once.
2)The ITF and the KV buffs were made after feedback by veteran GF players and Crush accepted them and buffed the 2 abilities.
3)Mark again was buffed by the lead systems designer of NW.
And now what we have here?
A proposal to rework Mark?????????????????????????
Why????????????????????????????????????????????
mark gives a flat +15% damage to Gf.And we need badly this damage.NW is an action MMO.Damage rules.Any proposal to remove damage/dps from a class is a clear step to lead this class to destruction.
ITF and KV are fine.Who the hell mentioned that has problem with them?I NEVER SAW A COMPLAIN BY ANY CLASS.
ANd our advocate wants to nerf them???????????????????????????????????
What the hell???????????????????????????????????????????????
Is that possible???????????
damancious i will be crystal clear.A small GF history lesson cause you might need one.GF after mod 2 was played by less of the 3% of total NW population.In the first 50 pages of leaderboard before mod 3 we have tweleve(12) GF.Make the maths.
Then the Gf community rised up and waged a war in the forums.And we got buffed.From this war you were abscent.
You were not there.
Skart,Ripyoursoulff,staggy,me,lisaxill ,crixus and many others waged a long war here.Against GWFs and to make GFS relevant o the game gaining back our position as a tanks from Sents GWFs.Flooded the forums in order Gf to get dps ,or powers that increase party DPS.
Cause as veteran players we know that that is the whole thing about NW.
ANY OF YOUR PROPOSALS AGAINST THIS WE WILL FIND US OPPOSING YOU.
A CLASS ADVOCATE SHOULD NEVER PROPOSES NERFS TO HIS CLASS.
And what about your theory" a GF must be a tank" ???
tank is a temr used in other MMOs.In NW GF is not a "tank".As crush said GF is a Controller.he controlls the battlefield.
And he is a hybrid.Part defender part dps part debuffer .jack of all trades.he has three paths.
Conq is pure dps.
Protector is defender.
Tactician is tactician.
Based on these any plkayer can custom his toon as he likes.
The model is succesfull and the devs will repeat it in DC rework.
If you want GF to be "tank" first of all you SHOULD HAVE A POLL AND ASK.
Doing things cause you THINK THAT IS GOOD FOR YOU IS NOT GOOD.
This reminds me better as a little dictator nor an advocate.
Sorry for my late reply, I don't get on as much as I used to.
Damnacious, KV and ITF can't be nerfed, they are the reason why the gf has a place in pve now, we actually have some use. It is a boring playstyle, having to slot both of them but the gf needed better buff abilities and I'm sure with some clever ideas there could be a way for the gf to slot these but still be able to fight and have fun other than being just a wall that buffs the team. But either way, if they get nerfed we will not be wanted for pve again.
Also mark shouldn't be changed. I agree with hypervoreian, this is a dps game in both pve and pvp. We need dps and since we already have basically the lowest we need this mark to help us. It might not be crazy useful in pve but it's very useful in pvp and a simple change for pve could maybe be to make it like threatening rush where it is a small area mark ? It would be far from OP but would give the gf a little extra dps and a decent working tab ability.
We have some good ideas in this thread and it could make the gf class much better and more fun to play but atm we rely on our buff powers or we have no place in pve since it's 95% based around just dps and we guardians seem to be using cardboard swords ^^
instead of some "Gfs" (GWFs really) that put hillarious demands to the devs like NERFining our party buffs and our damage ,i'll put some real issues that many Gfs face:
1)Animations are too slow.
Villain's menace is so slow that if you have steel defence slotted you don't get 5 secs of immunity ,but 3,5.That's **** right we are speaking about 1-1,5 sec animation.
Flourish is again too slow.
2)GWrath is not affected by recovery.That makes it obsolete.15secs for a charge fill??? Really?
So in order to have a full encounter ready you have to wait 45 secs?45 secs in damage/dps is outDPSed by far by cleave...
And by long run.
3)Certain spells /powers go through block.Winter wolfs breath for example
4)Terrifying Impact has a very narrow cone /range of affect AoE
5)All GF self healings are relics from beta and 9200k gs derelict dungeons and need rework.
Gf was the first class designed and his heals are the same since beta while PVE /PVP enemies have gone far too ahead in danger/heals.
Take Measure,Grit Shielded resurgence ,al need a significant buff.
6)Wrathfull warrior feat does not benefit from temp hit points ,as provided by sets,(ex Purified ring/amulet set).
Wrathfull warrior should activated more .it's ICD is so looooooooonnnnngggggggg.it rarely is activated every 3-4 mins.really????
7)tactical superiority for Conqs is lucking.5% more damage.After you invest 5 points in a t4 feat?
Every T4 feat for cws for example adds 20% more damage.And we have 5? 5???? Five??????
if the devs don't want more damage then they should add 1/2/3/4/5 % more critical chance.
8)The capstone for Conq in order to be activated demands 5 hits.It is too many when fighting bosses.Cause you block or avoid.Ex fighting dragons in Hes,if i don't deliberately stand in fron of breath attack,i never go beyond2-3 stacks.
These are ways to improve Gfs specially Conq ones.This is a meaning of advocating a class.To improve and defend it.Not to ask (and with out even other classes or other Gfs asking it!) for nerfs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
****.Gosh.
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damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
edited October 2014
Quite interesting to see how many of you didn't actually seem to fully read what I wrote and proposed.
As stated now multiple times, although there is a reduction in the capabilities of both KV and ItF, those capabilities have simply been redistributed to the Tab function and BUFFED.
At the end of the day, a GF using Tab (which, I believe, all GFs should be), KV and ItF will have EXACTLY the same capabilities as they do now. Not less, but more. Additionally, in my proposed changes, if you slot EM then a GF should receive even greater benefits than they do now.
The only reason I have suggested a change to the Tab function is purely because of a desire and request by some GFs to increase the functionality of our Tab.
What I think you all must remember is that the position of Class Advocate does not mean that my opinion is given any more weight than anyone else's. However, I fully have the right to have an opinion about any and all classes, express that opinion and have it considered. Exactly the same as you. Therefore, making statements that make reference to my 'fitness' to be the Class Advocate purely because my opinion may differ from yours has no relevance and place in this thread.
As stated before, if you read it, my role as Class Advocate is purely to collect your feedback, collate it and provide a synopsis of it in a weekly report to the Development Team. Again, as stated before, if at any time you have questions or concerns about my 'fitness' to act as the GF Class Advocate, please feel free to send either Akromatik or GentlemanCrush a private message and discuss it with them.
Furthermore, if you really expect one person to be able to agree to the diverse perspectives and opinions of everyone then you really aren't thinking logically or reasonably. There will always be someone that is not satisfied.
Comments
Spec: All
This goes back to my bug report where in it I point out the change in how we are taking twice the damage through block.
Something needs to change as the current block is useless to use unless you use guarded assault and lifesteal so you don't die after a few hits in elol as currently block does little to save me now unless I get endless consumption procs(lifesteal crits).
EDIT: Also after some testing critical hits through block seem to be doing more damage than they should which may mean tenacity is not being applied to block, but this is only a suspicion. Also what could be done to make Guard worth something is to change the 80% hard cap to 85% as this is needed for pve in some situations.
EDIT 2:After testing it seems to be when you initially put up block there is a small window where guard is not engaging and your regular dr is the only thing decreasing damage done. And to add more to this problem it seems to have a higher base damage than what it is initially which is causing even more damage than just taking the hit normally. And its seems to be fast attack at wills and encounters that benefit from this and the issue of block itself not engaging right away requiring you take hits before it begins to mitigate properly.
Anyway...here be my thought on the GF class and tanking:
a) With regards to people mentioning the blocking formula, I feel with how it is then not enough importance is placed on how much defense/deflect you have since the initial dmg is reduced by block then DR etc. Perhaps a better way would be something like have the initial damage reduced first by your defense/DR and then by the block %. This would make it harder for those who think they can just sit behind their shield with lower defenses.
b) I definately appreciated the revamped GF changes that came in the last big module/patch, mainly in regards to the change to block and the much needed improvement in how much extra threat they produce from marked targets etc, this had made GF tanking a lot better. However maybe this wouldnt be a bit unbalanced but as a GF I find it a bit annoying that our marks from Enforced Threat etc get removed the second we get hit without our shield up. This is an issue for me cos unless you just stand there with perma block setup and stab from behind your shield (rather a limited way to play a GF) you need to use encounters, which leaves u vulnerable to gettin hit and there goes all your marked targets.
c) Another concern I have with the recent changes to GF is the changes to Knight's Valour and Into the Fray. I feel the two have become some sort of "cheese build" that many players feel they have to use to play a GF in a party, or just to be a good tank, which is really not the case if you know what you are doing. That coupled with the attitude of several players who expect GFs just to be "buff bots" in the party with those skills so they can just mindlessy charge into enemies and not to have to worry so much about dying. My last issue with Knights Valour is I feel there is not enough risk these days in GFs using it as they can happily soak up large amounts of damage from other people in the party without much effect on their health. Therefore a couple of suggestions people may disagree with are:
- I'm not 100% on the calculation for the dmg boost for Into The Fray, but when I hear people say they can give 40%+ boost it worries me. My understanding that it was 50% of your DR (from defense only). Either way the boost it gives at the moment seems a little high.
- Maybe reduce the amount of damage ignored that Knight's Valour gives to other players, say to 25% or some way of making the GF using it take slightly more damage from other players. This might encourage more careful use of it and not let other players in the party think they can run into enemies by themselves cos they wont die with KV on.
d) I am also against being able to perma-block, it kind of takes away the challenge of playing the class such as choosing when to block and having to stop blocking to use encounters or tide of iron to ensure you dont run out of block when its needed. That said I think the number of GFs able to do this is a minority, but for me it is a balance issue in the way with TRs able to stealth kill things without even havin to worry about getting attacked or CWs being able to control everythin around them 90% of the time.
e) I think other than that I am happy with how GFs are, just not so much how people treat them in most groups is all. Unfortunately the main issue I have with GFs in groups is down to players attitude to them in groups, in that many dont care for their role and that many GF players are actually trying to tank. This however is mostly down to how unbalanced certain classes are the game mechanics that allow people to get away with it a lot of the time, so there is not much of a penalty for rushing in ahead of the GF, who is the only one (or maybe a tank GWF) that should be able to get away with it.
SUGGESTIONS
COMMENTS
PREVIEW
BUGS
SUGGESTIONS
LINKS
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?777511-Official-Feedback-Thread-Artifact-Equipment
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?773431-Official-Feedback-Thread-Other-Balance-Changes
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?778081-GF-Artifact-Shield-No-AC-Bonus
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?775871-I-don-t-think-knight-s-valor-should-stack
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?775241-Guard-Known-as-block-is-bugged
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?778561-knight-s-valor-does-not-buff-companions-pet
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?775281-New-Divine-Cleric-buffs-and-GF-damage
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?774301-All-in-Favour-of-Keeping-Mark
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?776411-Knight-Valor-outside-party
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?777121-why-does-grim-tactician-chest-armor-cost-the-same-as-profound-chest-armor
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?772161-GF-Class-Advocate-Feedback
I'm not sure about boosting our damage that much however, as like DCs in healing/buff spec the purpose of us being in a group is not to be a damage dealer and we shouldnt need to do deal high dmg to keep threat due to our improved threat skills and mark system. However perhaps a review of a DPS feat tree for the GF could be good, similar to like you are doing with DCs at the moment. However I do feel that GFs who choose to go the DPS route should have severly limited ability to tank to make it more of a tactical choice, maybe by reducing the amount of threat and defense they have but at the cost of more damage. The stance switching with tab could work well in this also (tho reminds me very much of warriors in WoW
Everything else sounds like some good suggestions
Bug or not it should remain..
or GWF HR and TR will forever remain untouchable
Right now we have a huge potential in terms of damage .. Some GF are an example, find the trade-offs between attack and defense, and build your own ideal character ^^
(i needed the translate for it, so I apologize for grammatical nonsense ^^)
| Cìrdan - GF | Cìrdan The Lightbringer - OP |
< Guild: Pugno Fiammante >
Combat Advantage=+15% damage.
For eveyone of you that insist to "rework" or whatever Mark,you basically asking a 15% damage nerf to the already stragling Gf!! :mad:
+ CAGI Calcultator
+ Liquid Tear Website
Other than that I think it is a great class
Thanks
Urlord
I've tested it and it seems it works for me...
For a while now I’ve wanted to post a few of my personal ideas and perspective on our class and get your feedback on it.
Just a quick note on some topics discussed so far, namely the reworking of the Tab mechanic:
I love the current Tab mechanic to Mark at range. As stated by others, I love the facility to strategically Mark and pull in PVE with it, often Marking multiple targets, then using Threatening Rush on a mob followed by ET. I find that this rotation and use provides me with extensive capacity to position mobs facing a specific direction (away from the party), particularly with cone effects. I think that the current mechanic works very well and provides a large amount of bonuses that compliment both PVP and PVE. In PVP I’ve found that routinely Marking all targets has a significant effect on the capacity of myself and team to efficiently dispatch enemies. Particularly for PVP, I would not like the capacity to Mark and debuff at range to be removed. However, I do like the concept of ‘stances’ (as I’m an old ‘craft player) yet traditional and current D&D doesn’t really operate in that manner. That being said, I do believe that Tab could be modified, particularly when combining it with something similar to a traditional D&D taunt using a Strength based Intimidation Skill Check to effectively scare/threaten/enrage an opponent into rash action or inaction.
In my experience, and from what I’ve read quite often, there needs to be some rebalancing of the GF, particularly the DPS side of the class, to enable GFs to be more viable and competitive in PVP; especially now that SoS has been reworked. I'm a big advocate for GFs not being a DPS class yet our current capabilities leave us a bit behind some other classes.
With a view to this, I have compiled a list of changes I think might be appropriate for the class going forward with respect to balancing it with both PVP and PVE and comparatively against other classes. However, I think that a lot of changes might need to be discussed extensively but not acted upon necessarily until Mod5 changes to other classes have been released. This is purely as it would be rather pointless to push for changes to balance GFs against other classes that are currently undergoing ‘balancing’ themselves.
Suggestion: Tab Mechanic
Spec: All
Pressing Tab now functions as a ‘War Cry’ which inspires the GF and party to greater acts of heroism by providing a morale bonus which increases the Damage, Damage Resistance and Run Speed of the GF and party members within 10 feet by 5% and grants 1% of the character’s Hit Points as temporary Hit Points for 6 seconds (1/2 Round). This fierce shout intimidates all enemies within 10 feet, temporarily Marking them for 6 seconds. Any single enemy specifically targeted directly by the GF when using Tab is now Marked (as current). All enemies Marked receive a debuff and take 10% more damage from all sources for 6 seconds and attackers receive Combat Advantage against them for 6 seconds.
Suggestion: Enhanced Mark
Spec: All
Marked targets now build threat while Marked, and at each Rank, you generate +75% more threat when striking them and increases the Damage, Debuff and Damage Resistance by +5%, range by +5 feet, temporary Hit Points by +1% and duration by +3 seconds. When used in conjunction with Tab Mark, at Rank 3 this would total: +225% threat. +20% Damage and Damage Resistance. Targets take +25% damage from all sources. 25 feet range. Temporary Hit Points 4% of maximum. Run Speed of +5%. Duration of 15 seconds and Combat Advantage.
Suggestion: Combat Superiority
Spec: All
At Rank 1, for 5 seconds, deal +5% additional damage to foes after they hit you. At Rank 2 and 3 each, increase additional damage dealt by +5% for a total at Rank 3 of 15%; increased from 10%.
Suggestion: Knight’s Valor
Spec: All
Knight’s Valor now increases Damage Resistance by +5% at Rank 1, 2 and 3. This is a total of 15%; down from +20%.
Suggestion: Into the Fray
Spec: All
Into the Fray now increases the Damage of the GF and party by +13% of the GF’s Damage Resistance at Rank 1, +25% at Rank 2 and +32% at Rank 3. This is a total at Rank 3 of 70%; down from 75%.
Suggestion: Distracting Shield
Spec: All
When you Guard an attack, your attacker briefly deals 2/4/6/8/10% less damage; increased from 1/2/3/4/5%.
Suggestion: Shielded Resurgence
Spec: All
When affected by a control power, gain 2/4/6% of your Hit Points over 10 seconds. Can happen once every 30 seconds; increased from 2/3/4%.
Suggestion: Powerful Attack
Spec: All
Increase the damage of your Encounter and At Will powers by 3/6/9/12/15%; increased from 2/4/5/8/10%.
Suggestion: Weapon Mastery
Spec: All
Increase your Critical Chance by 2/4/6%; increased from 1/2/3%.
Suggestion: Pin Down
Spec: All
The Prone, Stun and Slow duration of your Powers are increased by .2/.4/.6 seconds; now affecting Stun and Slow and increasing from .1/.2/.3 seconds.
Suggestion: Reinforced Surge
Spec: Conqueror
Frontline Surge now leaves targets Prone or Stunned for an additional .2/.4/.6/.8/1 seconds, and deals 1/2/3/4/5% more damage; now affecting Stunned targets and duration increased from .1/.2/.3/.4/.5 seconds.
Suggestion: Stunning Flourish
Spec: Conqueror Swordmaster
Flourish has an extra 2/4/6/8/10% chance to Crit and Stuns for .2/.4/.6/.8/1 seconds on last hit; increased from 1/2/3/4/5%.
Suggestion: Swap Plate Agility Tier 1 with Shield Defense Tier 2
Spec: Protection
Swap the Feat Plate Agility around with Shield Defense and increase the amount of Deflect Chance gained from Plate Agility to 2/4/6/8/10%; increased from 1/2/3/4/5%.
Suggestion: Surging Tide
Spec: Tactician
Tide of Iron’s debuff also reduces the amount of physical damage they deal to you by 3/6/9/12/15%; increased from 2/4/6/8/10%.
Suggestion: Terrifying Menace
Spec: Tactician
Anvil of Doom now has a 20/40/60/80/100% chance to interrupt the target and stun them for 2 seconds; increased from 1 second.
Suggestion: Ferocious Reaction
Spec: Iron Vanguard
When your Hit Points drop below 15% you regain 5% of your Hit Points, the foe that hit you takes that much damage and you gain Damage Resistance for 5 seconds. Once every 3 minutes. At each of Rank 2 and 3, Cooldown – 30 seconds, regain +5% of maximum Hit Points and Hit Point activate +75%. At Rank 3 this reduces cooldown to 2 minutes; decreased from 3 minutes and increased Hit Point gain by 5% up from 10%.
Suggestion: Enforced Threat
Spec: All
Decrease animation / cast time very slightly.
Suggestion: Crushing Surge
Spec: All
Decrease animation / cast time very slightly.
Suggestion: Villain’s Menace
Spec: All
Decrease animation / cast time significantly.
Suggestion: Supremacy of Steel
Spec: All
Increase the portion of damage reflected by a significant amount, preferably to 80%+ of the damage dealt.
Suggestion: Enduring Warrior
Spec: All
When you kill an enemy you heal yourself for 2% of your maximum Hit Points. At each of Rank 2 and 3, increase the heal amount by +1%.
Suggestion: Crescendo
Spec: Swordmaster
Decrease animation / cast time.
Suggestion: Heroic Encounters
Spec: All
Improve the chance for GFs to obtain loot, particularly through taking damage and / or Threat.
Comments: Tab Function
Spec: All
I believe that although the current functionality works well, there is the opportunity to improve it so that there are greater benefits for each spec in both PVP and PVE. I feel that modifying the current function to be similar to a ‘War Cry’ will work very well with the style of the class for each spec, with the proposed changes adding very little to the class overall in terms of increasing damage and survivability. These proposed changes instead distributes the GF’s current capabilities so that each spec can benefit from increases to their capability regardless of spec and Powers used and can be enhanced if certain choices in Passive and Encounter Powers are used. I like the idea that a GF would be able to produce a ‘cry’ that will invigorate allies and demoralise enemies at the same time as it reflects the Leadership type role of the class. I believe this modification of the Tab function should include Combat Advantage as it represents the demoralising and intimidating impact of the ‘cry’ on enemies and their subsequent inability to consider risks to their flanks through reckless positioning.
Comments: Knight’s Valor
Spec: All
I believe Knight’s Valor currently affords the GF perhaps too much Damage Resistance and should be reduced by a very small amount as it is currently relatively easy for a GF to overcap their Damage Resistance to 85% and, if it is possible to reach this cap, it should be as a significant tradeoff of other stats, giving the opportunity for the GF to set reaching the cap as a significant goal. This change would also affect the current perception that Knight’s Valor is a necessary Power to be using in both PVP and PVE. With the proposed changes to Tab, a reduction in Knight’s Valor would be necessary to ensure the stacking of both Tab and Knight’s Valor does not become unbalanced.
Comments: Into the Fray
Spec: All
I believe Into the Fray should have the Damage bonus reduced by a small amount as it currently grants too much damage to party members. Similar to Knight’s Valor, this would affect the perception that Into the Fray is a necessary Power to use in both PVP and PVE. With the proposed changes to Tab, a reduction in Into the Fray’s damage bonus would be necessary to ensure that the stacking of both Tab and Into the Fray does not become unbalanced.
Comments: Damage
Spec: All
Currently, the GF is one of the lowest damage dealing classes in the game. Although GFs should not have the capability to deal as much damage necessarily as pure DPS classes, the current damage capability of the GF needs to be improved through increasing certain Feats to ensure that the GF is still a viable and competitive class for PVP when comparing against other classes. Overall suggested changes to Feats and Powers are minimal and, although cumulatively those changes seem like a substantial increase in damage, the actual increase due to limitations of accessibility of those Feats and Powers at one time is slight but meaningful.
Comments: Crowd Control
Spec: All
Currently, the GF is a class that deals minimal damage, particularly when compared to other classes. Although the GF should not deal as much damage as a pure DPS class, the GF still requires some methods of ensuring they are viable and competitive in PVP. By increasing the duration of Prones and adding the capability for Feats to also affect the duration of Stuns, GFs will have the facility of being competitive, viable and useful in PVP without the necessity for drastically increasing their damage capability.
Comments: Healing
Spec: All
Currently, the GF has one of the least facilities to heal themselves out of all the classes, with only one Daily Power, two situational Passives and one situational Feat that actually Heal the GF. Small changes to these existing Powers and Feats will assist in ensuring the GF is capable of surviving with the aid of a DC more easily in PVE and facilitate the capacity of the GF to survive one versus one in PVP.
Sorry for any confusion!
The GF class is dead until at least 3 more mods so pack up your HAMSTER and play a different class until mod 8 comes out.
Anarchist, level 60 CW
Arsenic, level 60 TR
Pluck Yew, level 60 HR
Therapissed, level 60 DC
One more mention about the mark mechanic however. Here is what I feel it should do:
- Keep current extra threat gain.
- Remove the combat advantage it gives
- Keep the -DR to targets it gives for both the GF and party members.
- Make marking more reliable so not removed the moment we take damage when not blocking.
So the tank seems awfully slow and clunky as a result. No tank should have casts, it should all be instant.
I think your suggestions are fair. I like how you're keeping the intent of the glass to guard and tank, but increasing damage to be better able to keep aggro and tank effectively (because we all know how irritating it is when SWs and CWs pull the mob away from you and start dying).
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
NOOOOOOOOO this is the thin thread to keep GF in Dungeons .
Any move will kik us out from any PT .
We are only need cuz of this two encounters.
Before nerf try to ask for buffs we GFs have the worst survivability and DPS in the game .
Bit Negative feedback : You are our Class advocate or our enemy?
What is your goal to keep us out of pve?
I am sure there will no effect on pvp cuz i dont use KV or ITF on pvp nor perma block and i have succes in dpvp.
But before you poost somthing like this others play this game not just for pvp like y.
Now take a look on GF after mod 5 worst DPS worst defensive mech the only thing left is KV and ITF.
Now DC can make more dps then some dps class try to ask total rework for GF cuz its not fit in the current game its total outdated . CW life steal king also a killing machine in pvp and pve .
HR the real wolverine from X-men or brutal DPS if he is an archer.
DC awesome DPS healer debuffer .
TR awesome single and modarate aoe dps also he can one shoot any one .
GWF brutal beast another AOE Vampire high dps and good in pvp too.
SW is realy nice DPS and have awesome LS agan and we dont know nothing about her new paragon path i know this will be OP too.
Those are mod 5 where do you see GF ? What territory he can shine ? He have the wors self healing and you want to ask for this buff? can i ask you have y ever played some dungeon? How many adds do y kill in one run ? 20-30 ,omg nobody slot this . Why dont you see good suggestions ? I already told y we need rework on this and many our skills feats.
What we need is this :Enduring Warrior Give you 5% Life Steal and at each of Rank+ 2%.
Or just try to ask for total rework GF - Paladin.
I am sure this will help too .
I thought of that buddy, that is why, when used with my proposed Tab function, the capability is now the same, if not slightly improved. However, if you also slot Enhanced Mark, you will actually be even more better off than now.
It's just that i thought that this way, it gives people the option to still gain some of the benefits of KV and ItF as a part of the Tab function and improving it's usefulness while not using KV and / or ItF and still retain some use for KV and ItF too. Just now each player would have more choices on what they want to do, without facing the supposed BiS perspective some hold regarding KV and ItF.
Buddy, this is my personal opinion. It will be included in my weekly report just like everyone else's. As a player i am also entitled to express my opinion. However, my personal opinion has no relevance as to my capability to collect and collate your feedback and submit a report on it.
As to whether I PVE or not, you can rest assured I PVE. I party daily with players mainly from the Legit Community and sometimes, when I want a challenge, I will PUG.
The changes i personally propose are designed to enhance both PVP and PVE game play, not just one over the other.
If you read the rest of what I propose, you will see that your concerns over a 'nerf' to KV and ItF are unfounded, particularly as what we would lose from KV and ItF we gain on the Tab function and, if we slot Enhanced Mark, we would actually be better off. That, however, leaves players with a multitude of choice as to whether to slot KV and / or ItF and / or Enhanced Mark or any other Power instead.
While changes I propose to Powers such as Enduring Warrior are small, it is also good to remember that although we want improvements to our class, reaching for the sun like Icarus will likely get us burned. I believe that although we need improvements, it is good to work out what the class needs and how much and compare it to other classes and how it all fits in together.
If you also consider the proposed changes to Powers such as Crushing Surge, Shielded Resurgence and Ferocious Reaction too, you will see that overall, the healing capabilities of GFs would actually be modestly improved on what they are now to assist in increasing our survivability.
Making the argument that KV and ItF should not be changed at all as they are essential to GFs simply serves to highlight my concerns that they are too potent as they are currently and are somewhat regarded as "BiS" and that those Powers need to have some redistribution so they aren't the only choice for GFs in either PVP or PVE.
As you know the new dungeon type are one shooting dungeons where FR and EW dont do anything i have 70 k hp and 60% dr and if i dont use block for 1 sec i am oneshooted by HR mob or golem or bosses or even dragonlings can 2 shoot me this have nothing to do with good GF or bad GF 1 mistake and you are dead .
Any of your suggestion wont help us just think about what i say for 5 min GF will be on the same spot as in mod3 from lets say from 1 mill ppl only 1-3 % will be GF agan.
Do you know why are the GF on the worst spot cuz of LS and DPS any other class in mod 5 have high dps and we all know more dps more HP back . GF lack of both cuz you can gain LS from def slot or pets this is your only option.
Regen dont help in pve .
Thanks buddy! I really tried to find some balance with what I thought needed to be improved and how, without going overboard or ignoring the needs of both PVP and PVE.
Essentially, there are small improvements to damage, mitigation, self healing, crowd control, party buffing and general utility. These proposed changes are small yet they all add up, even despite the fact we wont be able to use everything all at the same time!
I almost never have problems with holding aggro / HATE though so I haven't often experienced having to strive to regain aggro.
Belive me SW fury can pull the agro from(on boss figth) u if he use IF set.
I experienced this many times but mosty i play with greaded players.
All my friends are ower 20 k perfect enchants Purple pets arti weapon/belt + legend arti.
I have this luxury too but the point is i feel my self like i have 5 k GS.
You get one-shotted in PVE with 60% DR and 70k HP? Is that including Block? Given your comments before about KV, I take it this also includes KV too?
I find that although Regeneration isn't fantastic, it does help to some degree. There are few classes that actually gain a bonus of any sort to their Lifesteal as a Power or Class Feature. Other classes may have more DPS capability than us yet, for the most part, they are DPS classes and the GF is not. That seems somewhat reasonable to me to expect that GFs won't have the same capacity to DPS as a pure DPS class.
Currently, EW and FeR are a bit lackluster, yet FeR will be given an improvement: If you also have Improved Reaction Feated, that would give FeR 35% of your maximum Hit Points as a heal. If you even consider my modest 25% (thought of before i saw that post by Crush), that is still significant. A 35% heal to you with 70% HP would heal you for 24.5k HP every 3 minutes and my initially proposed total of 25% would heal you for 17.5k HP every 2 minutes.
Your proposal of changing EW to provide up to 11% Lifesteal would mean that a GF could easily obtain over 20% Lifesteal. That is pretty enormous, even factoring in how much damage we might do as a low damage spec, that would certainly feel very over-powered I think. I could be wrong though!
If you are being one-shotted then having more Lifesteal (even 20+%) is extremely unlikely to be of much assistance to you.
If you also read about the other changes I proposed, you would notice that I have included an increase in Deflect too from the Plate Agility Feat. This would produce a very minimal (almost negligible) improvement in our mitigation, yet everything adds up!
The thing to also bear in mind is that now we also have SWs in parties that heal and DCs that are quite capable too. Crush initially indicated in his Mod4 posts about GF changes that he wanted GFs to 'need' a healer of some sort in the party and therefore, proposing changes that are designed to make a healer of any sort obsolete, I believe, is unlikely to be implemented.
I will be including your proposal for the change in EW to the Development Team in next week's report so they will hopefully consider it!
Just in case if y think i am lie to y.
Now do the math HR melee can have 99% easy LS .
IF GF have 20% its op ? i dont think so we have soo low dmg vs HR melee.
Y can try to build up your char like me and Golems and rangers etccc.... will one soot you w/o KV or KC & w/o block. The do almost 300k dmg your only have chance if you can deflect it but GF have 0 deflection even if you build on deflect you will be oneshooted cuz you will have low hp (around 40k)but anyway you can only have (halfing bonus included+dex belt) 32-35% deflect capped .
You dont see my poit of view .
I am in the endgame and my team mates are too but they already outshine my GF in every corner the only reason i feel my self a little bit usefull is KV and ITF .
Non of you suggestion will help the end game GF .
Ofc they dont maked GF OP or broken no they maked other classes broken and OP .
What i want is to climb up to him.
Any way our block is official mess now today i was in E.SOT and the last boss hit on me Blocked 21k dmg .
The big deal is no one else need heals only GF . No one else need controll only GF. The current thinking is now :
Deal BIG BIG DPS and you can outheal any incoming dmg via LS.
Ask your self why?
Also after mod 5 Temp SW is overnerfed i dont expect such a great numbers of SW healers.
If other classes need heal too mybe i say agan mybe GF will be needed and KV + IF nerf can come but this will not happen so i say agan .
No need for those nerfs.
Even if you don't slot EM then you still end up with EXACTLY the same benefits as you would if you were to use KV and ItF as they are now, EXCEPT, you would be better off.
A number of my GFs are in end content too.
Certainly the boss at the end of Epic SoT will likely hit you for 21k while Blocking as the boss can hit for 244k. The fact you are taking less than 10% of that damage indicates the Blocking mechanism is working as exactly as the Developers want it to. Don't get me wrong, i'm not overly fond of the idea of taking damage while Blocking, yet it is what the Developers want and it isn't overly unreasonable and i sincerely doubt that is going to change anytime in the near future.
As to my proposals not helping the GF in end content, that is entirely your perspective and you're certainly within your right to express it. However, I thought the changes I proposed would be a rather decent improvement on what we currently have now without becoming unbalanced.
As for HRs having more Lifesteal than GFs, well I don't think it's necessarily the Lifesteal that is the problem but other Powers and features. HRs are also currently in the process of being 'rebalanced', the same as other classes, so I'm not sure if comparing GFs to current classes is really the wisest thing to do.
If, as you propose, GFs obtained the facility to have ~20% Lifesteal, not including ToD boons, which could easily put it closer to 25%, GFs would essentially be healing themselves for about the same amount as they would when using Fighter's Recovery (FiR). As it is entirely possible for a GF to deal a 100k+ AoD, that would mean they could be healing themselves every 30 seconds on average for something similar to 25k HP. This doesn't seem over-powered to you? Let's change the scenario a bit and put your proposal into a PVP context. What that would do is essentially allow the GF to maintain Block almost indefinitely, yet assuredly for a substantial duration, and then constantly heal themselves to full easily by delivering one or two attacks. With that in mind, do you think the Developers would not decide to change that really quickly because it is unbalanced?
As for being one-shotted by Golems etc. That is intentional on the part of the Developers I assume. I really don't believe it is intended for any class at this stage to be able to simply take the damage and walk away from it. That is one of the reasons why GFs have a desired role in parties now - we can Block.
A GF trivializes eSot and eLoL so much that there is no concept of a failed run with a good one in a group. I have it on authority from friends that have pugged those without a good GF that groups can and do fail--meaning people wipe enough times that people bail--, but you won't ever see that or have that with a good GF in the group. Most members of the other classes can't say that, and I certainly could never say that prior to eSoT and eLoL.
I am in horror.
I will be crystal clear.
First of all....
1)How Damancious became GF advocate?In the long days of the absolute loneliness and obscurity of Gf as a class in mod2 and after,i never saw the name of the current Gf advocate,ever pops once.
2)The ITF and the KV buffs were made after feedback by veteran GF players and Crush accepted them and buffed the 2 abilities.
3)Mark again was buffed by the lead systems designer of NW.
And now what we have here?
A proposal to rework Mark?????????????????????????
Why????????????????????????????????????????????
mark gives a flat +15% damage to Gf.And we need badly this damage.NW is an action MMO.Damage rules.Any proposal to remove damage/dps from a class is a clear step to lead this class to destruction.
ITF and KV are fine.Who the hell mentioned that has problem with them?I NEVER SAW A COMPLAIN BY ANY CLASS.
ANd our advocate wants to nerf them???????????????????????????????????
What the hell???????????????????????????????????????????????
Is that possible???????????
damancious i will be crystal clear.A small GF history lesson cause you might need one.GF after mod 2 was played by less of the 3% of total NW population.In the first 50 pages of leaderboard before mod 3 we have tweleve(12) GF.Make the maths.
Then the Gf community rised up and waged a war in the forums.And we got buffed.From this war you were abscent.
You were not there.
Skart,Ripyoursoulff,staggy,me,lisaxill ,crixus and many others waged a long war here.Against GWFs and to make GFS relevant o the game gaining back our position as a tanks from Sents GWFs.Flooded the forums in order Gf to get dps ,or powers that increase party DPS.
Cause as veteran players we know that that is the whole thing about NW.
ANY OF YOUR PROPOSALS AGAINST THIS WE WILL FIND US OPPOSING YOU.
A CLASS ADVOCATE SHOULD NEVER PROPOSES NERFS TO HIS CLASS.
And what about your theory" a GF must be a tank" ???
tank is a temr used in other MMOs.In NW GF is not a "tank".As crush said GF is a Controller.he controlls the battlefield.
And he is a hybrid.Part defender part dps part debuffer .jack of all trades.he has three paths.
Conq is pure dps.
Protector is defender.
Tactician is tactician.
Based on these any plkayer can custom his toon as he likes.
The model is succesfull and the devs will repeat it in DC rework.
If you want GF to be "tank" first of all you SHOULD HAVE A POLL AND ASK.
Doing things cause you THINK THAT IS GOOD FOR YOU IS NOT GOOD.
This reminds me better as a little dictator nor an advocate.
Damnacious, KV and ITF can't be nerfed, they are the reason why the gf has a place in pve now, we actually have some use. It is a boring playstyle, having to slot both of them but the gf needed better buff abilities and I'm sure with some clever ideas there could be a way for the gf to slot these but still be able to fight and have fun other than being just a wall that buffs the team. But either way, if they get nerfed we will not be wanted for pve again.
Also mark shouldn't be changed. I agree with hypervoreian, this is a dps game in both pve and pvp. We need dps and since we already have basically the lowest we need this mark to help us. It might not be crazy useful in pve but it's very useful in pvp and a simple change for pve could maybe be to make it like threatening rush where it is a small area mark ? It would be far from OP but would give the gf a little extra dps and a decent working tab ability.
We have some good ideas in this thread and it could make the gf class much better and more fun to play but atm we rely on our buff powers or we have no place in pve since it's 95% based around just dps and we guardians seem to be using cardboard swords ^^
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
1)Animations are too slow.
Villain's menace is so slow that if you have steel defence slotted you don't get 5 secs of immunity ,but 3,5.That's **** right we are speaking about 1-1,5 sec animation.
Flourish is again too slow.
2)GWrath is not affected by recovery.That makes it obsolete.15secs for a charge fill??? Really?
So in order to have a full encounter ready you have to wait 45 secs?45 secs in damage/dps is outDPSed by far by cleave...
And by long run.
3)Certain spells /powers go through block.Winter wolfs breath for example
4)Terrifying Impact has a very narrow cone /range of affect AoE
5)All GF self healings are relics from beta and 9200k gs derelict dungeons and need rework.
Gf was the first class designed and his heals are the same since beta while PVE /PVP enemies have gone far too ahead in danger/heals.
Take Measure,Grit Shielded resurgence ,al need a significant buff.
6)Wrathfull warrior feat does not benefit from temp hit points ,as provided by sets,(ex Purified ring/amulet set).
Wrathfull warrior should activated more .it's ICD is so looooooooonnnnngggggggg.it rarely is activated every 3-4 mins.really????
7)tactical superiority for Conqs is lucking.5% more damage.After you invest 5 points in a t4 feat?
Every T4 feat for cws for example adds 20% more damage.And we have 5? 5???? Five??????
if the devs don't want more damage then they should add 1/2/3/4/5 % more critical chance.
8)The capstone for Conq in order to be activated demands 5 hits.It is too many when fighting bosses.Cause you block or avoid.Ex fighting dragons in Hes,if i don't deliberately stand in fron of breath attack,i never go beyond2-3 stacks.
These are ways to improve Gfs specially Conq ones.This is a meaning of advocating a class.To improve and defend it.Not to ask (and with out even other classes or other Gfs asking it!) for nerfs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
****.Gosh.
As stated now multiple times, although there is a reduction in the capabilities of both KV and ItF, those capabilities have simply been redistributed to the Tab function and BUFFED.
At the end of the day, a GF using Tab (which, I believe, all GFs should be), KV and ItF will have EXACTLY the same capabilities as they do now. Not less, but more. Additionally, in my proposed changes, if you slot EM then a GF should receive even greater benefits than they do now.
The only reason I have suggested a change to the Tab function is purely because of a desire and request by some GFs to increase the functionality of our Tab.
What I think you all must remember is that the position of Class Advocate does not mean that my opinion is given any more weight than anyone else's. However, I fully have the right to have an opinion about any and all classes, express that opinion and have it considered. Exactly the same as you. Therefore, making statements that make reference to my 'fitness' to be the Class Advocate purely because my opinion may differ from yours has no relevance and place in this thread.
As stated before, if you read it, my role as Class Advocate is purely to collect your feedback, collate it and provide a synopsis of it in a weekly report to the Development Team. Again, as stated before, if at any time you have questions or concerns about my 'fitness' to act as the GF Class Advocate, please feel free to send either Akromatik or GentlemanCrush a private message and discuss it with them.
Furthermore, if you really expect one person to be able to agree to the diverse perspectives and opinions of everyone then you really aren't thinking logically or reasonably. There will always be someone that is not satisfied.