I think if I could sum up the real concern of the BUFF BOT faction it would be this way:
Some people want an effective-active GF build not designed around holding agro.
As long as a GF is holding agro there is no question: they are active player and the game feels active no matter what is on the bar, but the moment a player has made a decision to play a GF that doesn't hold agro certain builds could feel passive, and these players that have made the decision to not hold agro would like some of their more active options buffed.
You can see how accusing everyone that runs KV and ITF of being a BUFF BOT is disruptive to that discussion though.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited October 2014
Suggestion :
GF skills dailys must be quicker faster to activate at-wills too reason : New mod and mod5 req too much block and we need quick reaction also we have 1 handed sword not two handed so our skill must be quicker.
" I think Hammer of doom activation time is fine "
War crys like enforced and ITF must be quicker too how much effor need somone to shout or cry ?
Example
In D&D bards can sing and figth both at one time.
Cuz crys sings shouts are Free action ativation time is 1. Spells activation time is 4 .
One handed sword speed factor time is 2 two handed 4 .
About mark :
I think we need somthing similar to SW mech if we mark a foe some extra effect will triger from our encounters (mostly dmg encounters ) this can make GF realy funny to play also it can consume our mark .
Currently SW have the copy paste tab mech from GF but better. Why can we copy this too?
What do y say?
Main reason is why i say this we have copy paste paragon path from Gwf SM and WMS hit too slow in the hand of GF . 1th he have fast swinging on handed sword 2 th we dont have determination to speed up our at wills .
Another Suggestion: to damnacious your main goal must be presuade DEVS to make our own paragon path cuz it was the worst thing what happened to GF .
PS: cuz i am not born with eng can somone hou understand what i wanna say to write it in better form?
Nothing will make ITF and KV more interesting to players that don't want to buff, and ITF is already a short term boost.
Some players don't care about group utility and importance and only want to see their personal DPS increase.
I've been playing games like this since Ultima Online and Everquest and the tank class has always been the lowest damage, along with the healing classes, so low damage for GF doesn't bother me at all and seems normal. This game has 2 tank classes and one already does super high damage.
Venril Sathir- CW
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
The issue's not about wanting to DPS. we're tanks, for crying out loud.
It's about gameplay.
KV in a dungeon is dead boring. Slot, block, hold. That's it. If you unblock to cast a power, your HP drops.
ITF is good, but it doesn't help with controlling the playing field.
What we need is a threat buff to ET and TRush. Combat Superiority is getting a threat buff, too, but that's only on targets that have hit you first. KV is a massive threat builder. It doesn't need to be; it's a major damage interceptor already. As it stands, the only way I'll effectively keep aggro from the whole mob is if I had a perfect lightning. That's not happening any time soon. So, we need to look at how to build and keep threat.
As I've said before, I manage threat by Tab, ET, and TR; stray mobs by Tab, Bull Charge, and TR; and major threats by Tab, BC, and Frontline. Ideally, at all times, every mob in the fight is either marked or proned. Unfortunately, in this time of massively overgeared squishies, this system doesn't hold aggro near as well as KV, which is why everyone's asking for the latter and brings me back to my earlier post regarding the fine balance between KV and Damage for pulling aggro. You need one or the other. The first is easier to attain, but the second, when balanced well can be the mark of an excellent GF. All it takes to make that balance easier is a small handful of buffs to threat generation.
The issue's not about wanting to DPS. we're tanks, for crying out loud.
It's about gameplay.
It's about gameplay for YOU, but you're not everyone. And KV is dead boring depending on the player. Yes, you click in on, but after that
you have a lot of options you have to deal with to avoid death. You have to grab agro and react to other players stealing agro or splitting the fight. And you don't have to block all the time; I sure don't and the majority of my fights are spent hitting tab and casting.
But it's a play choice. No way is better than another if it's effective and you get a smooth run.
I agree threat can use a buff or two; it's a LOT of work to hold agro now, but right now everyone is throwing out different ideas for changing things and if we can't agree on just one thing, nothing will get changed.
Some players want a DPS upgrade and others want an agro upgrade. Still others want a gameplay mechanics change to keep things from getting boring.
Venril Sathir- CW
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
Knight's Valor is a toggle power, yes, but I also cannot see how this makes it a boring skill. Just because I do not have a third button to smash on? Keeping your party safe is more than just activating Knight's Valor, but it helps, and the Guardian Fighter has a slot less for other Encounters, that is the price for this little help.
Maybe some fellow players of this class want actually a whole new class or should use the Great Weapon Fighter which is more focused on "actively" used Encounters.
Moreover, playing as any other class can be "boring" as well, as every class can have some sort of rotation it repeats over and again and there is no big difference for me between the "boringness" of my Guardian Fighter, Control Wizard or Great Weapon Fighter on any other class.
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damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
edited November 2014
BUGS:
When Blocking and casting Aggravating Strike, you are ‘locked in’ to the animation and are unable to stop it to change direction or attack despite lowering your Guard.
Flourish is not affected by Knight’s Challenge. - Another player has argued that it is WAI.
SUGGESTIONS:
GFs gain dailies really fast (faster in high GS groups), so using those as the medium to share with others makes a lot of sense so maybe make some of the daily powers more group helpful (like fighter's recovery also applies to your entire team (at 50% effectiveness) or having Villain’s Menace grant everyone with temporary immunity from control powers within a certain range (and maybe a slight buff as well).
Reduce the bonus damage of Anvil of Doom against players.
Change the visual effect of Knight's Valor to make it cause less lag. Reduce the damage intercepted, but add the ability to reactivate the power to intercept a greater amount of damage taken for 1 second (without increasing the amount taken by the GF), after which it goes on cooldown.
Change Into the Fray along the same lines: A reduced overall damage boost in return for a greater short-term boost with a reactivation. Playing the buffbot GF is kind of boring (especially if using both KV and ItF).
Improve the DPS path for GF so DPS comes at a cost of tanking ability to give players the choice of how they want to play their character.
Bring back old Frontline that used to do 10-12K damage (Keep the stun), and reduce the target limit to 3.
Both GF and GWF classes need an independent paragon already.
Iron Vanguard and SwordMaster need to be removed from GF and GWF and give them new paragons.
Bull Charge needs to stun or have a severe cooldown augmentation.
Bull charge is fine the way it is.
If Bull Charge was changed to a Stun, it would make it easier for the GF to ‘Stun Lock’ an opponent when used with Griffon’s Wrath and then deal large damage with Anvil of Doom.
Build threat better without resorting to KV (I like the artifact off-hand buff to combat superiority)
Bring AP gain back to SoS (you can negate the gain from SoS itself, but allow us to gain AP from our encounters and at-wills during its duration, please)
Teach CWs, HRs, and SWs not to attack until after the GF has pulled and controlled the playing field. Otherwise, it becomes like herding cats and someone's gonna die.
Mark could be buffed by:
1)Mark Focus not to last only 20 secs ,but as GWF to last indefinetely untill GF marks another target as MArk Focus.
2)Mark could have an AoE effect as Lunging Strike.Meaning:The target aimed become Mark Focus with all the bonuses.Inside a cone 2 other adds are just normal marked.
Improve the class so the GF has value and is desired in parties not just when using Knight’s Valor and / or Into the Fray.
Other Powers need to be improved so that GFs are not just a one-trick pony.
If our weapon damage is increased to the level of other classes it would help out personal DPS a lot.
Fix Conqueror capstone so that you get 10 second 25% damage buff (non-stackable) every time you crit. That way you don't need 5 stacks to do top damage after everything has died.
Generally, Encounter, Daily and At-Will Powers need to have their animation/cast time reduced as it is difficult to cast them when continuous Blocking is necessary for survival. GFs use a one-handed sword so attacks should be faster and Powers such as Into the Fray should be faster as speaking is a free action in traditional D&D. Compared to other classes, GF attacks are slower yet the damage is less and, in the case of the GWF, they can increase the speed of their attacks with a class feature to deliver damage from a heavier weapon much faster than the GF.
Change Tab Mark to work like the SW Tab feature.
GFs need their own separate second Paragon Path.
Knight's Valor and Into the Fray could be made more interesting if they had some sort of interactive element to them, that would require skill and timing to activate. For example, Knight's Valor could provide lower general level of damage transference, but it could come with the ability to re-activate it for a short-term heightened effect. That would retain the overall level of effectiveness, but require more interaction to use to full effect, and would give better tools in some situations. The same thing could be done with Into the Fray -- lower general effectiveness in return for the ability to give a greater short-term boost, increasing the scope for interactivity with other players. As another alternative, powers like these could interact more with tab mark to make that feature more important. Like increasing the damage absorbed against the target of the tab mark while KV is active, or boosting the effect of Into the Fray against the tab mark target.
Enforced Threat and Threatening Rush need to have their Threat increased.
There is no big difference between the "boringness" of the Guardian Fighter, Control Wizard or Great Weapon Fighter or any other class.
COMMENTS:
The GF class fits it's role really well now compared to the last two mods. But it's role is a tank and a lot of the game mechanics don't require or encourage use of a tank in higher level groups.
Really like the new block mechanic; that works well.
Path wise, Conqueror’s damage has never been the same since they changed the mechanic away from 2x strength bonus, but the problem is block + high dps is very overpowered.
The class is pretty good where it’s at. There could be a few changes (like shorter cooldown times on some skills), but it would unbalance them more than balance them.
Don't really want to see the GF morphing into a buff bot type of thing though (although KC armor favored that (and Stalwart at one point)).
The GF should be maybe more of a leader role (if you look at traditional D&D).
KV is another good for low level group skill in low level dungeons, but in new content high GS groups, lifesteal makes up for party damage, so absorbing some doesn't help anyone (and gets you dead).
Knight’s Valor is boring and non-interactive to play with -- giving it a reactivate feature would help with that; it causes a lot of lag and makes it hard to play with, both in PvP and PvE; and in PvP in particular, it's a little on the strong side. Giving it a reactivate would help with big spikes of damage in PvE, so its overall efficiency wouldn't be reduced, but the GF would need to make more effort to make full use of the ability.
I used to love SoS, but I don't run it anymore. I am not up on the changes for it, but one day it just felt like it was only dealing about 50% dps and I dropped it.
The GF is not only a ‘tank’ but can also have powerful single target DPS and can lock a target with Crowd Control.
GF has to sacrifice too much to gain 25-30% deflect and that's not great anyways, especially in PVE.
You are not actually sacrificing too much to get 28% deflect when using some T2 equipment sets.
It might not be common but… its possible for GF's to deal good damage.
The very idea of swapping paragons between GF/GWF was the worst in the game's history.
GF is overbuffed, it's the only class that can arguably 1-rotation others in PVP and has a huge HP pool too.
GF can make himself invincible in PVP with any reflect build.
GF, however, is a true tank (especially as protector) and they don't do massive amounts of damage. So, yes, there's some balance. What needs to be addressed more is the self-heal of many squishies, which keeps them alive in situations where they should either need a tank or be drinking potions.
GF deals HUGE amount of damage in PvP.
Most GFs would shy away from Knight's Challenge, however, their damage remains incredibly high for such a durable class.
I have a kiting def specced beast of a GF... that sees no play, cuz who needs a tank when they can have a lifesteal stacking dps machine?
Since the change to Reckless Attacker, general DPS is lower.
1x1 in PVP, GF beats anything but some HRs ( and other GFs).
The Protector GF excels at taking the hits (especially if there's a good DC).
I'd be happy if there were no changes at all. The class rocks if you know how to play it.
I'm really worried Knight’s Valor and Into the Fray are going to get trashed because of the whiners.
I wish ITF and KV be trashed. i rather use bull rush or anvil of doom , than be a buff bot.
You never see anyone other than a few GFs complaining about Knight’s Valor or Into the Fray, especially other classes. When you don’t use Knight’s Valor and Into the Fray you most often get other classes and players complaining.
You can enjoy GF even he is a buffbot.
Mark as in current form is great.-20% DR plus +15% damage from CA is a very good tab.Plus the aggro mechanism.
Steel Blitz seems to do nothing and needs improving.
GF should be more controller than buffer.
Before mod 4 nobody wanted GF's in groups, now almost every group wants GF, except the guys that don't understand Knight’s Valor and Into the Fray. GF is now the easiest class to get a group with.
Knight’s Valor plus Into the Fray is almost necessary in most PVE parties. GFs, and us as players, should not solely be restricted to the use of two Encounter Powers to be viable in PVE. The general DPS capability of the GF is so low at present that DPS specced GFs have absolutely no role in PVE at all anymore and the GF in PVP is not comparable to other classes with regard to DPS purely because other classes put out significantly more DPS.
I play GF because I like Into the Fray, I like Knight’s Valor, I like helping the team. I have always liked support classes in other games like this. I like GF exactly how he is now.
GF has a more diverse set of abilities to perform in different roles and situations than other classes. Recent focus on Knight’s Valor and Into the Fray only exists because GF contribute no better that 3-10% of total damage to the team, providing everyone has the same gear level.
Some people want an effective-active GF build not designed around holding agro. As long as a GF is holding agro there is no question: they are active player and the game feels active no matter what is on the bar, but the moment a player has made a decision to play a GF that doesn't hold agro certain builds could feel passive, and these players that have made the decision to not hold agro would like some of their more active options buffed.
Nothing will make ITF and KV more interesting to players that don't want to buff, and ITF is already a short term boost. Some players don't care about group utility and importance and only want to see their personal DPS increase.
Knight’s Valor in a dungeon is dead boring.
PREVIEW BUGS:
Artifact offhand (shield) has a problem: when you upgrade it to rare (BLUE) you go from 8AC down to 2AC on it, then back up to 8AC when you get to Epic (purple).
Terrifying Impact deals only 800-1000 on level 9 dummies but it shows 3.7k to 4.5k physical.
SUGGESTIONS:
Changes to Off-hand Artifact Class Features:
Guarded Assault : now also mark your affected attacker .
Combat Superiority : now give you 5 % more crit chance.
Steel Defense : now give you 2 sec more immunity.
Steel Blitz: increase the chance to 5%
Trample the Fallen: now buffs the party.
COMMENTS:
GFs were very good in mod4 but as GWFs dps and tankiness grew back they could be left at home in mod5...again...
Off-hand Artifact Class Features:
I like the Combat Superiority one, personally. It's one of my preferred features, and I don't much like swapping it out for Enhanced Mark in an attempt to peel threat off bad players, but I do. So the added threat is something that would complement my style. DCs have some features that support their buffing role for allies. I could see Trample being improved into a party buff rather than a personal one, for GFs that like that role.
The Ferocious Reaction bonus is a small heal once every 3 minutes at best, which does not hold much value when the Power itself has little value.
Enduring Warrior bonus is an underwhelming extra bit of healing at the rate the ability procs.
Steel Defense seems good to use for PVE.
Combat Superiority: Allowing it to build threat is an excellent idea.
"Originally Posted by gentlemancrush View Post
We are making some fairly large changes to Control Wizard single target powers to improve their PVP presence and improving both of their Presence class features to make them more competitive choices with the Paragon features.
Arcane Presence: Now also passively increases your recharge speed by 5/10/15%.
Chilling Presence: Damage bonus increased to 2% per stack (per rank) and is doubled on Frozen targets.
Chill Strike: This power now activates 40% faster.
Entangling Force: This power now activates 40% faster.
Repel: This power now activates 40% faster.
Ray of Enfeeblement: This power now activates 40% faster.
Icy Rays: Targets can now be marked while moving.
Icy Rays: The follow up portion of this power now activates 40% faster.
Sudden Storm: This power now activates 40% faster.
Fanning the Flames: This power now activates 40% faster.
This should reduce how easily most powers are dodged against a Wizard, making them a dangerous ranged threat with more power options to control or damage foes.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer"
^^^^^^^
\cws got an enormous buff.Who???The class that hunts us te most and for most part whe are thier primary target cause we are so sloooooowwwwww.
Nice.read this.read these and i am taklking to the clueless naive incompetent GFs that were asking for nerfs.
"remove CA fromMArk.it makes positioning easy" "Anvil of Doom hits too hard" etc etc.....
Now let's try to fight these CWs that they will cast with a rate of a GAU/61A minigun.
Against CWs we will be hopless
Suggestions:
Remove the movement penalty that Gf has a class since beta.Or at least cut it in half.Other way GF is a sitting duck against CWs at 80s range.
Improve -shorten the casting animation if Villan's Meanace.The only ability(daily) of the Gf in order to stay alive against CWs.
Bull Charge,Knee Breaker ,Flourish ,Anvil need their range slightly increase.
WMS was designed to be used by Unstoppable GWFS.In GF is very slow.Animation shortened.
Crushing surge animation shortened,faster.
Steel Grace is obsolete in Mod4/5.CWS have so much control that are out of control.Steel Grace should be increased to 36% at tier 3.
Mark Focus to be permanent.
Tactical Superiority should give a 1% more critical per rank.
Ubiquitous Shield rework:increase your CC resistance by 2/4/6/8/10%
Shielded resurgence:Increae its healing to 5/10/15%
Grit:Increase its healing to 3/6/9%
Take Measure:Increae its healing to 3/6/9/12/15 % or
decreaae its cooldown to 25 secs.
Stunning Flourish feat:Increase its stun to 3 secs agaisnt players.(as it should be from the beggining).Against high deflect toons Flourish cannot stun even for 0.2 secs in its current form.
Increase its critical chance to 2/4/6/8/10%
Flourish in general needs its animation shortened,decreased.
I've been following this thread for a while now and I hope it will result in making the GF more enjoyable to play and not being the unwanted child of NWO. The GF is definitely in a better place now than it was in mod 3 and 2 but there is always room for improvement.
First suggestion regards the reckless attacker which is the conquerors capstone. As it is now you have to take damage for it to become activated, which sometimes means deliberately taking damage just to get the bonus damage and crit. Someone suggested that it should proc when dealing a critical hit. I run a conq GF with 2.7k critical strike which gives him 24,3% critical chance. When he gets the timeless armor set bonus the crit chance goes up to 26,8%. In theory not even every third strike would activate it but in practice that is even more uncertain. Sometimes I crit on the first strike sometimes I don’t crit until the battle is almost over. I don’t think it will be beneficial in terms of damage, to have a capstone that is this fickle.
I would like to suggest the following: Reckless attacker activates when entering the battle stance which starts a timer and each second after its been activated u receive a stack of reckless attacker. After getting the 3 stacks it lasts for the entire fight, and when the weapon is sheathed it resets. And i would like the stacks to be reduced to 3 with the first stack giving 2% crit chance and 5%damage, 2nd stack gives 3% crit chance and 10% damage, and the third stack gives 5% crit chance and 20% damage increase.
Getting an extra 10% damage will not be game breaking or allow the GF to outdps any of the dps classes but will give the conq GF a little more to show for since doing damage as a conq GF is on the expense of survivability.
My second suggestion is about WMS. WMS animation is awkward and rigid and it should be changed into something more fluid.
Lastly i would like to the address our TAB power. I really like it the way it is and would not want to have it changed. It has good buffs and it allows controlling the battlefield in terms of threat. The TAB power is not the problem, it is the limited amount of space on the encounter tray which limits the GF options especially in places like eLOL and eSoT were ITF and KV is more or less mandatory. My idea allows the combination of Tab with certain encounter powers.
The GF has 4 buff encounters which by themselves don’t deal any damage to the enemy but gives buffs or protect the party. Knights Valor, In to The Fray, Iron Warrior and Knights Challenge. My idea is allowing the GF to slot 1 of these powers on top of the tab mark, similar to how the cw gets to choose a fourth encounter power. The difference would be that once slotted together with Tab they will be constantly activated unless the GF is proned or stunned. If that happens then they will get the same icd as they have in the tray and after that reactivate on their own. So tab mark will work as it does now and the above mentioned powers will be working in the background for some of the buffs and then add additional buffs and bonuses when marking targets.
Knights Valor
Slotted with TAB: Constant uptime same bonuses as now (50% damage intercepted the damage reduction and threat building on top of it). When marking an enemy the party gets an additional 5% DR vs that enemy and the marked enemy’s damage is reduced by 5%.
Slotted in tray: Same bonuses as it has now with an additional 15% damage mitigation. But it loses its ability to be up all the time and instead lasts for 8-10 seconds with an ICD of 8 secs.
Iron Warrior
Slotted with TAB: Gives the entire party 40% temp hitpoint based on the missing hit points up to 15% of their max HP and the temp hit points drain in 5s. This should have a timer which starts when slotted and procs every 10s after that. So plyer X has 30K hit points. He gets hit and loses 15k. 0.4x15K=6000 but since it can only give back 15% of max hit points it will give 4,5k temp hit points for 5s or less if he gets hit again. So every 10s iron warrior checks party’s health and distributes temp hit points to everyone if needed. When marking targets everyone gets 5% stamina increase over 5 seconds and another 5s icd after that.
Slotted in tray: Same thing as it does now.
Knights Challenge
Slotted with TAB: Only applies to the marked enemy and gives between 50-100% damage increase for the GF and between 25-50& damage increase for the rest of the party against the marked target. The marked target deals 50-100% more damage against the GF and 25-50% more against the rest of the party.
Slotted in tray: Exactly the same as it is now.
In to the Fray
Slotted with TAB: Regenerates AP up to 75% of max AP in 3minutes. Any player will get AP regeneration from it until they reach 75% AP after that it stops and start the regeneration process again next time the AP drops under 75%. So it checks every single player in the party every 2s or so. Also increases party run speed, slower than it is now, but allow the GF to get higher speed increase that the rest. When marking a target the entire party gets another 10% damage increase against all sources.
Slotted in tray: Same bonuses as it has now with two exceptions. First allow the GF to cast it while moving, and second give the GF higher run speed from it compared to the rest of the party. Acquiring and maintaining aggro is a lot easier when being first in to the battle.
To summarize, TAB remains the same and gets different bonuses depending on which power gets slotted with it. The mark should also have different colors depending on which power is slotted, blue with knights valor, red with knights challenge and so on. This frees up an encounter slot and gives the GF even more versatility which allows it to cope with all kinds of situations. The bonuses from TAB slotted powers should affect only the party.
Thank you for reading and thank you Damnacious for all the time you put in to this.
The build was a long time ago a good one but with the GFs buff and new dungeons it got a bit forgotten, so here's a bit of recap and my suggestions on GFs self healing feats.
Feats
Shielded Resurgence (0/3) - When affected by a control power, gain 2/3/4% of your Hit Points (Shorted: HP) over 10 seconds. Cooldown: 30 seconds.
Suggestion: Make it a round 5%.
Comment: This is maybe one of the best made feats in the hole game.
Grit (0/3) - Gain 1/2/3% of your max HP in Temporary Hit Points when you are healed by a player power. Cooldown: 40 sec.(Since may GF powers/feats give temporary hit points I will shorten to THP)
Suggestion: Make it 5/7.5/10% and lower the cooldown from 40 to 30 sec.
Comment: This power is barely visible on the HP bar and with mobs hitting up to 70k this is just not enough. + This power also points out and fortifies the DCs role as a brother/sister to the GF.
Take Measure (0/5) - When you do a critical hit, gain THP equal to 1/2/3/4/5% of your maximum HP. Cooldown: 50 sec.
Suggestion: Lower the cooldown from 50 sec to 35-40 sec and buff the ammount of THP or lower the cooldown to 15 sec and keep the same ammount.
Comment: Another nice feat, just need some adjustments.
All these feats in combination with Wrathful Warrior (0/5) 3/6/9/12/15% more damage when you have THP, make a nice buff to the GF and I think these buffs will affect the turtle-buff state that GFs are currently in.
WARNING: PVE PERSPECTIVE Though I think those changes in PVP won't have a huge impact.
Waiting for comments and respectful opinions.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited November 2014
Dear damnacious have you any news or promises for us from Devs??
Cuz if not i think mod 5 is another dark age for us .
Its boring the other 6 class got Demigod buffs they are looking now all like Galactus.
Dear damnacious have you any news or promises for us from Devs?? Cuz if not i think mod 5 is another dark age for us .
Its boring the other 6 class got Demigod buffs they are looking now all like Galactus.
There has been no response from the Devs with regard to GFs and any changes for any upcoming Mods.
I doubt I would be informed of anything before anyone else as the usual method of communication from the Development team is to simply post it to be available for everyone.
My perspective (and it is purely my personal perspective) is that GFs had some major changes for Mod4 and now the other classes require balancing as a result. Consider the GF as the baseline against which other classes are measured if you will.
I also don't believe any suggestions we provide the Development team now is actually going to be implemented in Mod5. I'd be surprised if our Bugs are fixed and disappointed if they're not.
However, the feedback that is provided now will most likely be taken into consideration for changes made to 'balance' again the classes in Mod6. That is why i think it's extremely important to get the feedback organised, logical, relevant, consistent and unanimous NOW so that it is clear for the devs to implement as a priority for Mod6.
So, I don't believe your feedback now will make too much difference for Mod5, but i assume it should make a large difference for Mod6.
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damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
edited November 2014
Over the next 3 weeks I have planned to try clarifying what feedback we have already in terms of what we believe needs to be improved and I hope we can work through it to provide some clear information for the Devs at the end of my tenure for the Devs to work with going into Mod6, which may only be 2 months after the release of Mod5.
However, the feedback that is provided now will most likely be taken into consideration for changes made to 'balance' again the classes in Mod6. That is why i think it's extremely important to get the feedback organised, logical, relevant, consistent and unanimous NOW so that it is clear for the devs to implement as a priority for Mod6.
Agreed. I think the only thing we can come close to for a consensus is that as a DPS tree, conqueror is coming up wayyyyyyyyyyyy short.I think if we push for buffs to that we can come up with a near unanimous vote that we can take to the dev.
Venril Sathir- CW
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
as a DPS tree, conqueror is coming up wayyyyyyyyyyyy short.
+1 for this. I only play a Conq spec. I've tried the others but have always went back to Conqueror. I typically solo the HEs so I don't need LESS DPS, I need MORE DPS. Either give us a buff or increase our weapons base damage. We're not all Protector builds.
EDIT: Not all of us play PvP regularly either. I play GG once in a while but am not interested in even attempting to compete in PvP on a "pro" level so, as in all the other classes as well, stop making changes that are meant for PvP but affect PvE in a detrimental way.
Knight’s Valor plus Into the Fray is almost necessary in most PVE parties. GFs, and us as players, should not solely be restricted to the use of two Encounter Powers to be viable in PVE. The general DPS capability of the GF is so low at present that DPS specced GFs have absolutely no role in PVE at all anymore and the GF in PVP is not comparable to other classes with regard to DPS purely because other classes put out significantly more DPS.
I play GF because I like Into the Fray, I like Knight’s Valor, I like helping the team. I have always liked support classes in other games like this. I like GF exactly how he is now.
GF has a more diverse set of abilities to perform in different roles and situations than other classes. Recent focus on Knight’s Valor and Into the Fray only exists because GF contribute no better that 3-10% of total damage to the team, providing everyone has the same gear level.
I can play my role as a GF & tank in groups (when other players let me) quite fine without the use Knight's Valour and Into The Fray. For example if you are a good enough tank player then KV shouldn't be needed in most cases as the majority of damage and threat would be aimed at u.
Sadly however this is dependant on the attitude of the group but if I'm with players tho think they can just charge into enemies ahead of us, especially cos we r using KV I would turn it off as I do not agree with using it to protect people from themselves.
What worries me is that too many people are seeing ITF and KV as the only good thing about a GF in a group, which is why many feel they have to use them to get invites or not kicked...this is not to do with the class but more people's lack of understanding of the class, lack of team skills and attitude imo
Another thing - how do we know if/when Staggering Challenge procs? It should give some indication in the logs (which it doesn't) as well as showing up when using Griffon's or Knight's Challenge. It makes me wonder if the feat is even working. . .
Another thing - how do we know if/when Staggering Challenge procs? It should give some indication in the logs (which it doesn't) as well as showing up when using Griffon's or Knight's Challenge. It makes me wonder if the feat is even working. . .
Staggering challenge works.It is applied to second and third Grifon's.On average your second griffon does 20% more damage and your third 20% more than your second.Just test it on a dummy
I just finished some pvp.I have noticed the things i will write months ago yet they were more pressing things about Gf to write.But with the current leaderboard infested by HRs i must write thm dawn.
Bug:
Boar charge can prone a Gf even while in Villain's Menace.
Bug:After disruptive shot ends to a Gf and he can use his encounters,his guard remains unusable for additional 0.5-1.5 secs.
Bug:Fox shift melee ignores Block
General feedback about deflect and GF cc resistance:
Since mod3 the devs tried to change prones to stuns.in order to avoid oneshoting combos..Stuns are affected by deflect.
Problem about Gfs in that case is that some classes have extremely high delflect(HRs TRs GWFs) while Gfs are the melee class with the least deflect.
Indirect problem:
CWs complain to devs about loss of control about pvp.Cause HRs TRs and GWFs are very dificult controllable cause of high deflect.CWs get control buffs.
Since GFs are stuck with low deflect ,are more and more controllable by the cws.While control of CWs vs other classes remains basically the same ,against GFs is increasing with every mod.
There are only 3 GFs in the first page and 3 in the next 3 pages.Only 6 GFs in the first 144 toons.
We are in mod2 back again as concerning GF status in pvp.
GF got buffs in mod3 but same goes to every other class.Mainly GWF(intimidation),HRs (every month or so something is changing we have lost count) and CWs.
The new gear and enchantements benefit the more ranged dot able classes.HRs and CWs.
Add all these and you will see that the pvp GFs are under extinction.
They are easily controllable,low deflect ,they dont not have dot feats or mechanisms(minus the always obsolete Knee Breaker) their self heals are laughable (5% of their hp every 50 secs) while enemy toons (HRs) can get in that amount nearly 30-35k hp.
GF are in need of serious buffs.Since Devs are allergic to the word "dps" and "gf" in combination,i suggest all GFs to push for self heals buffs and deflect /cc buffs. Damnacious please,read my post and think about it.I think i speak logically.Please transfer our thoughts to the devs.The situation is pvp is dire and tragic for GFs.
Part of the issue to address the above, that was communicated in the FIRST feedback msg to the DEVs is that playing a GF is simply NOT FUN.
WHY?
because our hands down BEST abilities for PVE and PVP are ITF/KV. Those are NOT abilities but flat out buffs that consume an encounter slot. KV/ITF - They need to find a way to give us these benefits WITHOUT the massive cost of encounter slots.
ONE solution was our "tab" being able to be used to give EITHER ITF or KV as a "stance" mechanic.
ANOTHER solution could be to provide those things ONTO a daily (with increased duration). So for instance, Villains Mennace could last longer, and provide a party buff to damage/run speed/AP gain while STILL providing the GF with immunity.
Another Daily (Supremacy of steel perhaps?) Could be a reflect + Damage Split with teammates. So increase the duration and swap over those TWO encounters ONTO the dailies.
This would free up encounter moves for actual abilities.
I still stand behind another suggestion of making Mark a more "Active" tab ability. Mark in DnD allows you to "interrupt" attacks NOT aimed at the GF. I would imagine that if you mark a target and they do not attack the GF, it enables (for a short time) a "followup" attack that can stun the target for say 1 second.
meaning: If a GF marks a CW, who in turn tried to attack the GFs teammate, the GF presses tab and is able to hit the CW with a griffons wrath-like attack. Stunning him for 1 second.
I liked the idea of Bull Charge being a stun rather than a prone. That is actually in the GFs benefit.
Knee Breaker needs to have an increased slow effect for more efficient utility in keeping targets withing striking distance. If you knee breaker someone you SHOULD be able to at will faster than they can "walk" out of range. Increasing the slow to maybe 50% run speed would allow the GF more utility with that move to get off more at wills. Also activation and range of Knee Breaker should be increased slightly.
Griffons Wrath - This ability needs a shorter CD. Id actually rather see this ability dropped to a LOW CD and NO charges (in the range of Lunging Strikes CD) and keep its stun. This too could be more useful for hitting a foe within a short distance and keeping them in melee range.
Overall, the GF is a striker/controller that needs to exemplify "you can contain foes and keep them away from your friends." I think adding more melee oriented stuns, like griffons wrath, is ideal for the direction of the class. With bull charge being a stun, Tab function adding a griffons Wrath like stun, and things like Knee Breaker, it should be in the GFs power to attack and retain foes within melee striking distance. GF's should be vulnerable at range (which they are) but a force to be reckoned with at melee distance.
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damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
They need to find a way to give us these benefits WITHOUT the massive cost of encounter slots.
From my perspective, this is where I think we need to consider some 'realities' of the game and it's mechanics...
If a Power has large damage or an important function, that Power usually is balanced with a cast time/animation/cooldown that is sort of proportional to the size / potency of the damage / function.
When you consider KV and / or ItF with regard to this, you also see that there is a need for some sort of 'sacrifice', if you will, in order to gain the use of such potent abilities. The sacrifice where KV is concerned is that it takes up an Encounter slot in order for the Power to be toggled on/off. Essentially, you sacrifice an Encounter slot to gain +20% DR, take 50% of your ally's damage and to increase your Threat by a portion of that amount of damage. ItF has the sacrifice of a limited duration and sacrificing an Encounter slot for its benefits.
What you propose is to remove the sacrifice of an Encounter slot so you can still retain the benefits of these Powers (to some degree) while you can then slot 2 other Powers as well?
Can you see why, from my perspective, making changes like that doesn't seem really very balanced or logical?
If you can't, perhaps consider it from another perspective... i.e. would you consider it fair and balanced for a TR to request and receive ItC to be removed as an Encounter Power and included on their Tab function - Stealth, so that when they use Stealth they have a permanent ItC? This would allow them to have more fun while playing as they can then slot another Power in place of ItC instead of having to waste it....
This would free up encounter moves for actual abilities.
Essentially, I think it is good to be mindful of being gluttonous. While it ultimately would be nice, you can't expect to eat your cake and keep it too.
If a GF marks a CW, who in turn tried to attack the GFs teammate, the GF presses tab and is able to hit the CW with a griffons wrath-like attack. Stunning him for 1 second.
How would this actually be an effective improvement for all GFs? From my perspective, it would reduce the utility of the Tab function, not improve it. For example, I routinely use Tab to Mark multiple targets. Given your suggestion, the capacity for me to Mark an additional target with Tab would be limited if not removed as, if I tried to Mark an additional target with Tab after a Marked target attacks an ally, my Tab will not Mark but instead will deal one attack at a different target than the one I wish to Mark. The only real benefits I can see from your suggestion is limited to PVP. In PVE, your suggestion would significantly reduce the effectiveness of the Tab function for me.
I think the current way Tab is designed actually accurately reflects the D&D use and description. In D&D, Marking an enemy essentially means that if they attack anyone else other than the Marker then they are dealt increased damage etc. until they do. This is reflected in our current Mark function as until the Marked target attacks the GF, damage done to them is increased and, once they attack the unguarded GF, the Mark disappears. However, with the Tab Mark, this Mark actually lasts a bit longer after being attacked unguarded so we gain the benefits for longer.
In my prior suggestion on improving Tab, I took this D&D utility one step further where I sought to include the benefits of an Intimidation Check which would serve to further decrease the capability of a Marked target.
Despite this being an MMO, I think it is incredibly important to still retain as much 'truth' to the D&D concepts as possible. Obviously there are changes that need to be made to make the game run more smoothly and be balanced that might not tie in with traditional D&D, yet I don't think that advocating for changes to the class that aren't inline with D&D will actually be in the best interests of the game.
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damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
edited November 2014
What I would like to see is a simple balance between the classes.
I don't have a problem with a GF dealing less damage than any other class; a GF by it's nature should be more focussed on survivability than dealing damage.
However, what I would like to see is some simple and logical rebalancing where the difference between the most damage a GF can do is compared to the most damage from any other class and the difference is then equal to what our increased survivability should be.
Part of the issue to address the above, that was communicated in the FIRST feedback msg to the DEVs is that playing a GF is simply NOT FUN.
Sorry, I had to address this.
I'm having loads of fun playing my GF. Of course i can't speak for you, but i also can't allow you to speak for me when our opinions are polar opposites.
I'm looking at it this way; in mod 3 not only could i not get groups but even in PUGS i would get kicked before i could even say hi. Mod 4 I get multiple group invites within 30 seconds of logging on. Every time I look in the LFG channel some group is asking for a GF. I get friends requests every day. When I play other classes people ask me if i want to get on my GF. If I just simply solo queue up, GF always gets a group before any other class.
Look. Every class is pretty much locked into a certain spell rotation for maximum effectiveness. EVERY class. DC's were pretty much locked into astral shield, CW was locked into shard, SW into dread theft, etc etc etc.
The core issue here is that players in this game don't like the concept of support. Some just plain don't want to do it. This is understandable in PVP because you want to get kills and also in PVE because players hate being at the bottom of the paingivers.
To them buffing other players and increasing those players damage is not fun. But don't blame this on 2 spell slots being used because if changes were made and we were given 2 skills that did explosive damage and put us at the top of the paingivers we'd be happy campers.
If ANY buffs were done to increase our damage significantly with 2 new skills we would replace ITF and KV in a heartbeat and HAPPILY be locked into using those 2 skills.
ITF and KV ARE actual abilities and more importantly, they're getting us groupage and a LOT of it. Please leave them alone.
Venril Sathir- CW
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
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damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
NOTE: This thread is specifically designed to provide a single place for GF players to provide their feedback on the class. This thread is not designed for non-GF players to criticise the feedback of GF players, regardless of the value or veracity of that criticism. If you are not a GF player and aren't prepared to provide your GF focussed feedback designed to improve the class, then please do not post in this thread. Instead, feel free to post your opinion in either your own thread or the thread of someone else.
Staggering challenge works.It is applied to second and third Griffon's.On average your second griffon does 20% more damage and your third 20% more than your second.Just test it on a dummy
I did test it - nothing shows up in the log. Let me rephrase - How do we know it's WAI if there's no indication of it being proc'd in the log? I agree that your explanation make sense and I HOPE that's how it's working but without feedback from the log, how do we know it's working?
I aim to misbehave
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damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
I did test it - nothing shows up in the log. Let me rephrase - How do we know it's WAI if there's no indication of it being proc'd in the log? I agree that your explanation make sense and I HOPE that's how it's working but without feedback from the log, how do we know it's working?
The damage listed in the log file will demonstrate whether it is working as intended or not.
May be considered cumbersome but it should be accurate.
Regardless, I will submit your feedback regarding a desire for a more obvious and visual confirmation of the effect working.
Comments
Some people want an effective-active GF build not designed around holding agro.
As long as a GF is holding agro there is no question: they are active player and the game feels active no matter what is on the bar, but the moment a player has made a decision to play a GF that doesn't hold agro certain builds could feel passive, and these players that have made the decision to not hold agro would like some of their more active options buffed.
You can see how accusing everyone that runs KV and ITF of being a BUFF BOT is disruptive to that discussion though.
GF skills dailys must be quicker faster to activate at-wills too reason : New mod and mod5 req too much block and we need quick reaction also we have 1 handed sword not two handed so our skill must be quicker.
" I think Hammer of doom activation time is fine "
War crys like enforced and ITF must be quicker too how much effor need somone to shout or cry ?
Example
In D&D bards can sing and figth both at one time.
Cuz crys sings shouts are Free action ativation time is 1. Spells activation time is 4 .
One handed sword speed factor time is 2 two handed 4 .
About mark :
I think we need somthing similar to SW mech if we mark a foe some extra effect will triger from our encounters (mostly dmg encounters ) this can make GF realy funny to play also it can consume our mark .
Currently SW have the copy paste tab mech from GF but better. Why can we copy this too?
What do y say?
Main reason is why i say this we have copy paste paragon path from Gwf SM and WMS hit too slow in the hand of GF . 1th he have fast swinging on handed sword 2 th we dont have determination to speed up our at wills .
Another Suggestion: to damnacious your main goal must be presuade DEVS to make our own paragon path cuz it was the worst thing what happened to GF .
PS: cuz i am not born with eng can somone hou understand what i wanna say to write it in better form?
Some players don't care about group utility and importance and only want to see their personal DPS increase.
I've been playing games like this since Ultima Online and Everquest and the tank class has always been the lowest damage, along with the healing classes, so low damage for GF doesn't bother me at all and seems normal. This game has 2 tank classes and one already does super high damage.
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
It's about gameplay.
KV in a dungeon is dead boring. Slot, block, hold. That's it. If you unblock to cast a power, your HP drops.
ITF is good, but it doesn't help with controlling the playing field.
What we need is a threat buff to ET and TRush. Combat Superiority is getting a threat buff, too, but that's only on targets that have hit you first. KV is a massive threat builder. It doesn't need to be; it's a major damage interceptor already. As it stands, the only way I'll effectively keep aggro from the whole mob is if I had a perfect lightning. That's not happening any time soon. So, we need to look at how to build and keep threat.
As I've said before, I manage threat by Tab, ET, and TR; stray mobs by Tab, Bull Charge, and TR; and major threats by Tab, BC, and Frontline. Ideally, at all times, every mob in the fight is either marked or proned. Unfortunately, in this time of massively overgeared squishies, this system doesn't hold aggro near as well as KV, which is why everyone's asking for the latter and brings me back to my earlier post regarding the fine balance between KV and Damage for pulling aggro. You need one or the other. The first is easier to attain, but the second, when balanced well can be the mark of an excellent GF. All it takes to make that balance easier is a small handful of buffs to threat generation.
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
It's about gameplay for YOU, but you're not everyone. And KV is dead boring depending on the player. Yes, you click in on, but after that
you have a lot of options you have to deal with to avoid death. You have to grab agro and react to other players stealing agro or splitting the fight. And you don't have to block all the time; I sure don't and the majority of my fights are spent hitting tab and casting.
But it's a play choice. No way is better than another if it's effective and you get a smooth run.
I agree threat can use a buff or two; it's a LOT of work to hold agro now, but right now everyone is throwing out different ideas for changing things and if we can't agree on just one thing, nothing will get changed.
Some players want a DPS upgrade and others want an agro upgrade. Still others want a gameplay mechanics change to keep things from getting boring.
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
Maybe some fellow players of this class want actually a whole new class or should use the Great Weapon Fighter which is more focused on "actively" used Encounters.
Thank you. As I said before a whole lot of other issues arise after toggling it on.
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
SUGGESTIONS:
1)Mark Focus not to last only 20 secs ,but as GWF to last indefinetely untill GF marks another target as MArk Focus.
2)Mark could have an AoE effect as Lunging Strike.Meaning:The target aimed become Mark Focus with all the bonuses.Inside a cone 2 other adds are just normal marked.
COMMENTS:
PREVIEW
BUGS:
SUGGESTIONS:
- Changes to Off-hand Artifact Class Features:
- Guarded Assault : now also mark your affected attacker .
- Combat Superiority : now give you 5 % more crit chance.
- Steel Defense : now give you 2 sec more immunity.
- Steel Blitz: increase the chance to 5%
- Trample the Fallen: now buffs the party.
COMMENTS:LINKS:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?773431-Official-Feedback-Thread-Other-Balance-Changes&p=9332301&viewfull=1#post9332301
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?773431-Official-Feedback-Thread-Other-Balance-Changes&p=9363121&viewfull=1#post9363121
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?782811-GF-Sharandar-Final-Boon
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?775281-New-Divine-Cleric-buffs-and-GF-damage
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?775281-New-Divine-Cleric-buffs-and-GF-damage
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?783101-Mod5-Class-Balance-Feedback-Discussion-%28PVE-ONLY%29
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?784641-What-did-FrontLine-Surge-do-to-be-in-such-a-sorry-state
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780841-Rise-of-Tiamat-Preview-Patch-Notes-NW-35-20141023a-1
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?782001-How-would-you-rank-the-classes-in-PVP-when-module-5-hits-%28In-1v1-s-only%29
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?782911-Doing-it-wrong-Squishies-should-do-better-DPS-not-Tanks
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?783411-Bullcharge-needs-to-stun-or-have-a-severe-cooldown-augmentation
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?772161-GF-Class-Advocate-Feedback
"Originally Posted by gentlemancrush View Post
We are making some fairly large changes to Control Wizard single target powers to improve their PVP presence and improving both of their Presence class features to make them more competitive choices with the Paragon features.
Arcane Presence: Now also passively increases your recharge speed by 5/10/15%.
Chilling Presence: Damage bonus increased to 2% per stack (per rank) and is doubled on Frozen targets.
Chill Strike: This power now activates 40% faster.
Entangling Force: This power now activates 40% faster.
Repel: This power now activates 40% faster.
Ray of Enfeeblement: This power now activates 40% faster.
Icy Rays: Targets can now be marked while moving.
Icy Rays: The follow up portion of this power now activates 40% faster.
Sudden Storm: This power now activates 40% faster.
Fanning the Flames: This power now activates 40% faster.
This should reduce how easily most powers are dodged against a Wizard, making them a dangerous ranged threat with more power options to control or damage foes.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer"
^^^^^^^
\cws got an enormous buff.Who???The class that hunts us te most and for most part whe are thier primary target cause we are so sloooooowwwwww.
Nice.read this.read these and i am taklking to the clueless naive incompetent GFs that were asking for nerfs.
"remove CA fromMArk.it makes positioning easy" "Anvil of Doom hits too hard" etc etc.....
Now let's try to fight these CWs that they will cast with a rate of a GAU/61A minigun.
Against CWs we will be hopless
Suggestions:
Remove the movement penalty that Gf has a class since beta.Or at least cut it in half.Other way GF is a sitting duck against CWs at 80s range.
Improve -shorten the casting animation if Villan's Meanace.The only ability(daily) of the Gf in order to stay alive against CWs.
Bull Charge,Knee Breaker ,Flourish ,Anvil need their range slightly increase.
WMS was designed to be used by Unstoppable GWFS.In GF is very slow.Animation shortened.
Crushing surge animation shortened,faster.
Steel Grace is obsolete in Mod4/5.CWS have so much control that are out of control.Steel Grace should be increased to 36% at tier 3.
Mark Focus to be permanent.
Tactical Superiority should give a 1% more critical per rank.
Ubiquitous Shield rework:increase your CC resistance by 2/4/6/8/10%
Shielded resurgence:Increae its healing to 5/10/15%
Grit:Increase its healing to 3/6/9%
Take Measure:Increae its healing to 3/6/9/12/15 % or
decreaae its cooldown to 25 secs.
Stunning Flourish feat:Increase its stun to 3 secs agaisnt players.(as it should be from the beggining).Against high deflect toons Flourish cannot stun even for 0.2 secs in its current form.
Increase its critical chance to 2/4/6/8/10%
Flourish in general needs its animation shortened,decreased.
First suggestion regards the reckless attacker which is the conquerors capstone. As it is now you have to take damage for it to become activated, which sometimes means deliberately taking damage just to get the bonus damage and crit. Someone suggested that it should proc when dealing a critical hit. I run a conq GF with 2.7k critical strike which gives him 24,3% critical chance. When he gets the timeless armor set bonus the crit chance goes up to 26,8%. In theory not even every third strike would activate it but in practice that is even more uncertain. Sometimes I crit on the first strike sometimes I don’t crit until the battle is almost over. I don’t think it will be beneficial in terms of damage, to have a capstone that is this fickle.
I would like to suggest the following: Reckless attacker activates when entering the battle stance which starts a timer and each second after its been activated u receive a stack of reckless attacker. After getting the 3 stacks it lasts for the entire fight, and when the weapon is sheathed it resets. And i would like the stacks to be reduced to 3 with the first stack giving 2% crit chance and 5%damage, 2nd stack gives 3% crit chance and 10% damage, and the third stack gives 5% crit chance and 20% damage increase.
Getting an extra 10% damage will not be game breaking or allow the GF to outdps any of the dps classes but will give the conq GF a little more to show for since doing damage as a conq GF is on the expense of survivability.
My second suggestion is about WMS. WMS animation is awkward and rigid and it should be changed into something more fluid.
Lastly i would like to the address our TAB power. I really like it the way it is and would not want to have it changed. It has good buffs and it allows controlling the battlefield in terms of threat. The TAB power is not the problem, it is the limited amount of space on the encounter tray which limits the GF options especially in places like eLOL and eSoT were ITF and KV is more or less mandatory. My idea allows the combination of Tab with certain encounter powers.
The GF has 4 buff encounters which by themselves don’t deal any damage to the enemy but gives buffs or protect the party. Knights Valor, In to The Fray, Iron Warrior and Knights Challenge. My idea is allowing the GF to slot 1 of these powers on top of the tab mark, similar to how the cw gets to choose a fourth encounter power. The difference would be that once slotted together with Tab they will be constantly activated unless the GF is proned or stunned. If that happens then they will get the same icd as they have in the tray and after that reactivate on their own. So tab mark will work as it does now and the above mentioned powers will be working in the background for some of the buffs and then add additional buffs and bonuses when marking targets.
Knights Valor
Slotted with TAB: Constant uptime same bonuses as now (50% damage intercepted the damage reduction and threat building on top of it). When marking an enemy the party gets an additional 5% DR vs that enemy and the marked enemy’s damage is reduced by 5%.
Slotted in tray: Same bonuses as it has now with an additional 15% damage mitigation. But it loses its ability to be up all the time and instead lasts for 8-10 seconds with an ICD of 8 secs.
Iron Warrior
Slotted with TAB: Gives the entire party 40% temp hitpoint based on the missing hit points up to 15% of their max HP and the temp hit points drain in 5s. This should have a timer which starts when slotted and procs every 10s after that. So plyer X has 30K hit points. He gets hit and loses 15k. 0.4x15K=6000 but since it can only give back 15% of max hit points it will give 4,5k temp hit points for 5s or less if he gets hit again. So every 10s iron warrior checks party’s health and distributes temp hit points to everyone if needed. When marking targets everyone gets 5% stamina increase over 5 seconds and another 5s icd after that.
Slotted in tray: Same thing as it does now.
Knights Challenge
Slotted with TAB: Only applies to the marked enemy and gives between 50-100% damage increase for the GF and between 25-50& damage increase for the rest of the party against the marked target. The marked target deals 50-100% more damage against the GF and 25-50% more against the rest of the party.
Slotted in tray: Exactly the same as it is now.
In to the Fray
Slotted with TAB: Regenerates AP up to 75% of max AP in 3minutes. Any player will get AP regeneration from it until they reach 75% AP after that it stops and start the regeneration process again next time the AP drops under 75%. So it checks every single player in the party every 2s or so. Also increases party run speed, slower than it is now, but allow the GF to get higher speed increase that the rest. When marking a target the entire party gets another 10% damage increase against all sources.
Slotted in tray: Same bonuses as it has now with two exceptions. First allow the GF to cast it while moving, and second give the GF higher run speed from it compared to the rest of the party. Acquiring and maintaining aggro is a lot easier when being first in to the battle.
To summarize, TAB remains the same and gets different bonuses depending on which power gets slotted with it. The mark should also have different colors depending on which power is slotted, blue with knights valor, red with knights challenge and so on. This frees up an encounter slot and gives the GF even more versatility which allows it to cope with all kinds of situations. The bonuses from TAB slotted powers should affect only the party.
Thank you for reading and thank you Damnacious for all the time you put in to this.
Feats
Shielded Resurgence (0/3) - When affected by a control power, gain 2/3/4% of your Hit Points (Shorted: HP) over 10 seconds. Cooldown: 30 seconds.
Suggestion: Make it a round 5%.
Comment: This is maybe one of the best made feats in the hole game.
Grit (0/3) - Gain 1/2/3% of your max HP in Temporary Hit Points when you are healed by a player power. Cooldown: 40 sec.(Since may GF powers/feats give temporary hit points I will shorten to THP)
Suggestion: Make it 5/7.5/10% and lower the cooldown from 40 to 30 sec.
Comment: This power is barely visible on the HP bar and with mobs hitting up to 70k this is just not enough. + This power also points out and fortifies the DCs role as a brother/sister to the GF.
Take Measure (0/5) - When you do a critical hit, gain THP equal to 1/2/3/4/5% of your maximum HP. Cooldown: 50 sec.
Suggestion: Lower the cooldown from 50 sec to 35-40 sec and buff the ammount of THP or lower the cooldown to 15 sec and keep the same ammount.
Comment: Another nice feat, just need some adjustments.
All these feats in combination with Wrathful Warrior (0/5) 3/6/9/12/15% more damage when you have THP, make a nice buff to the GF and I think these buffs will affect the turtle-buff state that GFs are currently in.
WARNING: PVE PERSPECTIVE Though I think those changes in PVP won't have a huge impact.
Waiting for comments and respectful opinions.
Cuz if not i think mod 5 is another dark age for us .
Its boring the other 6 class got Demigod buffs they are looking now all like Galactus.
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
There has been no response from the Devs with regard to GFs and any changes for any upcoming Mods.
I doubt I would be informed of anything before anyone else as the usual method of communication from the Development team is to simply post it to be available for everyone.
My perspective (and it is purely my personal perspective) is that GFs had some major changes for Mod4 and now the other classes require balancing as a result. Consider the GF as the baseline against which other classes are measured if you will.
I also don't believe any suggestions we provide the Development team now is actually going to be implemented in Mod5. I'd be surprised if our Bugs are fixed and disappointed if they're not.
However, the feedback that is provided now will most likely be taken into consideration for changes made to 'balance' again the classes in Mod6. That is why i think it's extremely important to get the feedback organised, logical, relevant, consistent and unanimous NOW so that it is clear for the devs to implement as a priority for Mod6.
So, I don't believe your feedback now will make too much difference for Mod5, but i assume it should make a large difference for Mod6.
Agreed. I think the only thing we can come close to for a consensus is that as a DPS tree, conqueror is coming up wayyyyyyyyyyyy short.I think if we push for buffs to that we can come up with a near unanimous vote that we can take to the dev.
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
+1 for this. I only play a Conq spec. I've tried the others but have always went back to Conqueror. I typically solo the HEs so I don't need LESS DPS, I need MORE DPS. Either give us a buff or increase our weapons base damage. We're not all Protector builds.
EDIT: Not all of us play PvP regularly either. I play GG once in a while but am not interested in even attempting to compete in PvP on a "pro" level so, as in all the other classes as well, stop making changes that are meant for PvP but affect PvE in a detrimental way.
I can play my role as a GF & tank in groups (when other players let me) quite fine without the use Knight's Valour and Into The Fray. For example if you are a good enough tank player then KV shouldn't be needed in most cases as the majority of damage and threat would be aimed at u.
Sadly however this is dependant on the attitude of the group but if I'm with players tho think they can just charge into enemies ahead of us, especially cos we r using KV I would turn it off as I do not agree with using it to protect people from themselves.
What worries me is that too many people are seeing ITF and KV as the only good thing about a GF in a group, which is why many feel they have to use them to get invites or not kicked...this is not to do with the class but more people's lack of understanding of the class, lack of team skills and attitude imo
Staggering challenge works.It is applied to second and third Grifon's.On average your second griffon does 20% more damage and your third 20% more than your second.Just test it on a dummy
Bug:
Boar charge can prone a Gf even while in Villain's Menace.
Bug:After disruptive shot ends to a Gf and he can use his encounters,his guard remains unusable for additional 0.5-1.5 secs.
Bug:Fox shift melee ignores Block
General feedback about deflect and GF cc resistance:
Since mod3 the devs tried to change prones to stuns.in order to avoid oneshoting combos..Stuns are affected by deflect.
Problem about Gfs in that case is that some classes have extremely high delflect(HRs TRs GWFs) while Gfs are the melee class with the least deflect.
Indirect problem:
CWs complain to devs about loss of control about pvp.Cause HRs TRs and GWFs are very dificult controllable cause of high deflect.CWs get control buffs.
Since GFs are stuck with low deflect ,are more and more controllable by the cws.While control of CWs vs other classes remains basically the same ,against GFs is increasing with every mod.
There are only 3 GFs in the first page and 3 in the next 3 pages.Only 6 GFs in the first 144 toons.
We are in mod2 back again as concerning GF status in pvp.
GF got buffs in mod3 but same goes to every other class.Mainly GWF(intimidation),HRs (every month or so something is changing we have lost count) and CWs.
The new gear and enchantements benefit the more ranged dot able classes.HRs and CWs.
Add all these and you will see that the pvp GFs are under extinction.
They are easily controllable,low deflect ,they dont not have dot feats or mechanisms(minus the always obsolete Knee Breaker) their self heals are laughable (5% of their hp every 50 secs) while enemy toons (HRs) can get in that amount nearly 30-35k hp.
GF are in need of serious buffs.Since Devs are allergic to the word "dps" and "gf" in combination,i suggest all GFs to push for self heals buffs and deflect /cc buffs.
Damnacious please,read my post and think about it.I think i speak logically.Please transfer our thoughts to the devs.The situation is pvp is dire and tragic for GFs.
WHY?
because our hands down BEST abilities for PVE and PVP are ITF/KV. Those are NOT abilities but flat out buffs that consume an encounter slot. KV/ITF - They need to find a way to give us these benefits WITHOUT the massive cost of encounter slots.
ONE solution was our "tab" being able to be used to give EITHER ITF or KV as a "stance" mechanic.
ANOTHER solution could be to provide those things ONTO a daily (with increased duration). So for instance, Villains Mennace could last longer, and provide a party buff to damage/run speed/AP gain while STILL providing the GF with immunity.
Another Daily (Supremacy of steel perhaps?) Could be a reflect + Damage Split with teammates. So increase the duration and swap over those TWO encounters ONTO the dailies.
This would free up encounter moves for actual abilities.
I still stand behind another suggestion of making Mark a more "Active" tab ability. Mark in DnD allows you to "interrupt" attacks NOT aimed at the GF. I would imagine that if you mark a target and they do not attack the GF, it enables (for a short time) a "followup" attack that can stun the target for say 1 second.
meaning: If a GF marks a CW, who in turn tried to attack the GFs teammate, the GF presses tab and is able to hit the CW with a griffons wrath-like attack. Stunning him for 1 second.
I liked the idea of Bull Charge being a stun rather than a prone. That is actually in the GFs benefit.
Knee Breaker needs to have an increased slow effect for more efficient utility in keeping targets withing striking distance. If you knee breaker someone you SHOULD be able to at will faster than they can "walk" out of range. Increasing the slow to maybe 50% run speed would allow the GF more utility with that move to get off more at wills. Also activation and range of Knee Breaker should be increased slightly.
Griffons Wrath - This ability needs a shorter CD. Id actually rather see this ability dropped to a LOW CD and NO charges (in the range of Lunging Strikes CD) and keep its stun. This too could be more useful for hitting a foe within a short distance and keeping them in melee range.
Overall, the GF is a striker/controller that needs to exemplify "you can contain foes and keep them away from your friends." I think adding more melee oriented stuns, like griffons wrath, is ideal for the direction of the class. With bull charge being a stun, Tab function adding a griffons Wrath like stun, and things like Knee Breaker, it should be in the GFs power to attack and retain foes within melee striking distance. GF's should be vulnerable at range (which they are) but a force to be reckoned with at melee distance.
From my perspective, this is where I think we need to consider some 'realities' of the game and it's mechanics...
If a Power has large damage or an important function, that Power usually is balanced with a cast time/animation/cooldown that is sort of proportional to the size / potency of the damage / function.
When you consider KV and / or ItF with regard to this, you also see that there is a need for some sort of 'sacrifice', if you will, in order to gain the use of such potent abilities. The sacrifice where KV is concerned is that it takes up an Encounter slot in order for the Power to be toggled on/off. Essentially, you sacrifice an Encounter slot to gain +20% DR, take 50% of your ally's damage and to increase your Threat by a portion of that amount of damage. ItF has the sacrifice of a limited duration and sacrificing an Encounter slot for its benefits.
What you propose is to remove the sacrifice of an Encounter slot so you can still retain the benefits of these Powers (to some degree) while you can then slot 2 other Powers as well?
Can you see why, from my perspective, making changes like that doesn't seem really very balanced or logical?
If you can't, perhaps consider it from another perspective... i.e. would you consider it fair and balanced for a TR to request and receive ItC to be removed as an Encounter Power and included on their Tab function - Stealth, so that when they use Stealth they have a permanent ItC? This would allow them to have more fun while playing as they can then slot another Power in place of ItC instead of having to waste it....
Essentially, I think it is good to be mindful of being gluttonous. While it ultimately would be nice, you can't expect to eat your cake and keep it too.
How would this actually be an effective improvement for all GFs? From my perspective, it would reduce the utility of the Tab function, not improve it. For example, I routinely use Tab to Mark multiple targets. Given your suggestion, the capacity for me to Mark an additional target with Tab would be limited if not removed as, if I tried to Mark an additional target with Tab after a Marked target attacks an ally, my Tab will not Mark but instead will deal one attack at a different target than the one I wish to Mark. The only real benefits I can see from your suggestion is limited to PVP. In PVE, your suggestion would significantly reduce the effectiveness of the Tab function for me.
I think the current way Tab is designed actually accurately reflects the D&D use and description. In D&D, Marking an enemy essentially means that if they attack anyone else other than the Marker then they are dealt increased damage etc. until they do. This is reflected in our current Mark function as until the Marked target attacks the GF, damage done to them is increased and, once they attack the unguarded GF, the Mark disappears. However, with the Tab Mark, this Mark actually lasts a bit longer after being attacked unguarded so we gain the benefits for longer.
In my prior suggestion on improving Tab, I took this D&D utility one step further where I sought to include the benefits of an Intimidation Check which would serve to further decrease the capability of a Marked target.
Despite this being an MMO, I think it is incredibly important to still retain as much 'truth' to the D&D concepts as possible. Obviously there are changes that need to be made to make the game run more smoothly and be balanced that might not tie in with traditional D&D, yet I don't think that advocating for changes to the class that aren't inline with D&D will actually be in the best interests of the game.
I don't have a problem with a GF dealing less damage than any other class; a GF by it's nature should be more focussed on survivability than dealing damage.
However, what I would like to see is some simple and logical rebalancing where the difference between the most damage a GF can do is compared to the most damage from any other class and the difference is then equal to what our increased survivability should be.
Sorry, I had to address this.
I'm having loads of fun playing my GF. Of course i can't speak for you, but i also can't allow you to speak for me when our opinions are polar opposites.
I'm looking at it this way; in mod 3 not only could i not get groups but even in PUGS i would get kicked before i could even say hi. Mod 4 I get multiple group invites within 30 seconds of logging on. Every time I look in the LFG channel some group is asking for a GF. I get friends requests every day. When I play other classes people ask me if i want to get on my GF. If I just simply solo queue up, GF always gets a group before any other class.
Look. Every class is pretty much locked into a certain spell rotation for maximum effectiveness. EVERY class. DC's were pretty much locked into astral shield, CW was locked into shard, SW into dread theft, etc etc etc.
The core issue here is that players in this game don't like the concept of support. Some just plain don't want to do it. This is understandable in PVP because you want to get kills and also in PVE because players hate being at the bottom of the paingivers.
To them buffing other players and increasing those players damage is not fun. But don't blame this on 2 spell slots being used because if changes were made and we were given 2 skills that did explosive damage and put us at the top of the paingivers we'd be happy campers.
If ANY buffs were done to increase our damage significantly with 2 new skills we would replace ITF and KV in a heartbeat and HAPPILY be locked into using those 2 skills.
ITF and KV ARE actual abilities and more importantly, they're getting us groupage and a LOT of it. Please leave them alone.
Venril- SW
Lurch- GF
Mini Ven- DC
I did test it - nothing shows up in the log. Let me rephrase - How do we know it's WAI if there's no indication of it being proc'd in the log? I agree that your explanation make sense and I HOPE that's how it's working but without feedback from the log, how do we know it's working?
The damage listed in the log file will demonstrate whether it is working as intended or not.
May be considered cumbersome but it should be accurate.
Regardless, I will submit your feedback regarding a desire for a more obvious and visual confirmation of the effect working.
Thanks for the feedback!