Also - move suggestion I've been wanting to say for a while. NPC's can charge up their tide of iron, I was thinking this would be a GREAT feature for us, it's easy to dodge, but it could be a knockback/prone since we have 2 prones including dailies currently.
I have always thought this too! It would be a great idea.
Crixus - PVP GF
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
edited October 2014
My role as the GF Advocate, as far as I understand it, is that of a normal player who simply collects, collates and then submits reports to Akromatik and Gentleman Crush. In that respect, my opinion means as much as yours, if not somewhat less. As expressed by someone previously somewhere, I perceive this role as being administrative in function.
At present, if my opinion is going to be expressed to Akromatik and Gentleman Crush then it will be posted in this forum using my preferred format and style and then submitted in the same manner with the opinion of everyone else.
(As a side note, the reason I ask for the format and style depicted is so that I can submit your feedback under those categories of Bugs, Questions, Suggestions and Comments and it really does make it easier for me and hopefully the Devs. I'm still getting a hang of what is required! )
If you would like any information about me as a player, please feel free to either refer to my post in the Nomination thread and / or message me. I applied to take on the responsibility of the role of GF Class Advocate and my suitability for the role was determined, I imagine, by Akromatik and Gentleman Crush. If you would like to discuss my suitability for this role please feel free to send me a private message or approach Akromatik or Gentleman Crush.
So, enough about me. Let's keep this thread relevant. This thread isn't about me. It's about GFs and what we can do to make them the best they can be. Let's work together and, by providing relevant and constructive feedback, we will have the opportunity to make our class great!
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
edited October 2014
I'm pretty sure you have already, but submit too the Dev's that the SoS nerf needs too be undone. SoS was never an issue.
Suggestion Topic: Increase AP gain for blocking high damage hits.
I think you can make the logical argument that the devs module 5 emphasis on high-hitting-lower-density mobs have changed the amount of AP gain for blocking shots per a damage output of mobs. Before getting hit by many things would cause a storm of AP gain while your shield held, but now that we got these larger slower harder hitting designs AP can trickle in while damage is similar to what it would be under the smaller mob paradigm. We didn't really notice at first because of KV, but now that KV got nerfed this fact has occurred to me.
If you go into something old and 10 things hit you, you gain AP at one rate for blocking mobs, but then if you imagine you condense those damages down into 3 mobs (like the new style dungeons) and it seems like your AP generation gets sliced by at least half while damage incoming toward you remains the same. The ultimate expression of this problem comes when a dev decides to condense all that damage down into 1 mob, and then AP generated by blocking trickles in and you primarily generate it with your offense.
I think devs should normalize higher hitting attacks to generate more AP when blocked, and if they do already they need to look at those equations a bit.
I actually remember asking gentlemen about this prior in mod 4, and he said with the block changes blocking AP generation was untouched which is mechanically true, so this isn't about that. It is just about the way the amount of AP we get in encounters for being a pin cushion seems to depend on the whether it is a bunch of weenie hits or big hits, and not so much on the amount of damage we are taking in.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited October 2014
BUG : Feat Take Measure DONT WORK AT ALL TESTED whit 1000 crits not procced ones .
Also i Suggest ask for DPS boost now even Conq GF will hit like a little girl with lollipop.
All other class got soo much massive DPS boost , GF(dps) will be much more worst then before mod 4.
By the way all other class have higher survive ability then GF. HR 60% deflect WM& 30% LS /SW 60% Dr +25% LS /GWF UR Unstoppable 60% deflect/ DC high deflect 40% healing and i wont talk about rework/TR 5 sec immunity and steath insane regen in steath w/o HD (in pvp) CW best DR in the game 25% dr what cannot be mignated do arp or pf.
damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
edited October 2014
Hi guys & gals!
I submitted this weeks report and have provided it for you below.
Thank you for all of your contributions and please keep it up!
In my report upon your feedback I have tried to either retain your initial wording or summarised it as best I can.
Please let me know if I've missed anything or if I stuffed up.
Thanks again!
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damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
edited October 2014
Bugs:
Profound 4 set bonus is still not working.
Powers like boar charge, bull charge, takedown and many more are sometimes going through block.
Guard sometimes stays up permanently until let go.
Guard can just drop for no reason.
Guard sometimes doesn't activate right away.
Using aggravating strike grants AP even if hitting mid air, out of combat.
Villains menace sometimes doesn't grant cc immunity.
Steel defense doesn't grant immunity from all dmg.
Steel Grace doesn't seem to mitigate the duration of control effects.
Stamina regen and bonus from sets and items not working.
Griffons wrath losing 2 charges instead of one.
Griffons wrath losing a charge if canceled.
Anvil of doom sometimes not even hitting and still goes on cooldown ( Usually happens when jumping or hitting small opponents).
Knights valor sometimes deactivating for no reason.
Knights challenge sometimes deactivating for no reason.
Crescendo not hitting if enemy moves out of range (makes no sense though since its auto stun lock, and if its already hit people shouldn't be able to move out of range).
Soulforged Enchantment does not work when killed despite being ready. When revived the enchantment still displays that it is available.
If Frontline Surge is partially covered (like half of it hits a rock) it doesn t do nothing and goes intro cooldown. This happened in MC dungeon.
Ferocious Reaction procs randomly, mostly after the soulforged enchantment.
Terrifying Impact prones cc immune players in PVP.
When Knight Valor is active while Steel Blitz is slotted, every player character in range will get a Steel Blitz animation that repeats with a 1 second interval.
Supremacy of Steel and Guarded Assault no longer proc Glyphs yet deal different types of damage.
The Feat Take Measure doesn’t seem to work when tested extensively.
Questions:
If you imagine the Guardian Fighter as a class that tanks, we will need to have content where tanking is necessary. The biggest buff to Guardian Fighters was the enemies in the new skirmish/dungeon hitting very hard, thereby requiring an actual tank to take the damage. Do you expect that this will continue in future content?
Glyphs will be able to be resisted, dodged, but also blockable by GF'S guard right?
Is Knight's Valor still going to affect non party members?
Suggestions:
Change Tab function
Replace Tab Marking with similar to the GWF Tab where certain abilities automatically apply mark for a limited duration.
Change Tab Marking to an Encounter Power and have Tab act to switch between an Offensive Stance (similar to Into the Fray) or Defensive Stance (similar to Knight’s Valor). Replace Knight’s Valor and Into the Fray with a new or Class Power such as Daring Shout.
Change Threatening Rush and Enforced Threat to ‘Hard Mark’ similar to the GWF.
Change Tab to spin the GF 180 degrees with Guard up.
Rework Tab to allow for Marking multiple targets and buff damage to Marked targets by 100% and debuff Marked target damage by 50%.
Remove Combat Advantage from Mark for both GF and GWF and increase the damage in other ways such as through Critical Damage or by ignoring Damage Resistance.
The Tab Marking function should not be changed as utilizing it to pull at range may often be useful.
Change Shield Talent or Guarded Assault to give a buff to Deflection Chance.
Change Enduring Warrior to give either a buff to Lifesteal or Regeneration.
Decrease the animation time of Crushing Surge and Enforced Threat
Change Mark to a Hard Taunt where enemies at least try to attack the GF once.
Change Mark to last for 1 minute and give bonus damage.
Change the animation and cast time of Into the Fray to an instant cast similar to KV.
Increase the damage of Villain’s Menace by 30% and extend the immunity to CC to start when cast.
Supremacy of Steel
Recent changes to Supremacy of Steel need to be undone as Supremacy of Steel was never the issue.
Particularly since Supremacy of Steel now respects Damage Resistance and Deflection, it needs to proc glyphs to remain competitive in PVP.
GFs need to be able to lash out at enemies who attack them and need to either take away an enemy’s ability to resist or should be able to use glyphs.
Supremacy of Steel is now unusable in PVP and PVE due to low Action Point Gain. Either all Daily Powers should not generate Action Points or all Dailies should.
Rework the recent changes to Supremacy of Steel’s Action Point Gain to provide some Action Points such as 1% but not 0%.
Short duration (2-4s) instant activation damage (not control) immunity and 100% reflection, capped at 25% of the offending player/mob total HP. Adds threat equal to 4x the damage dealt.
Short (2-4s) guaranteed deflection, absorb any damage taken by party members and at the end of the buff burst PBAoE equal to damage absorbed, and some threat.
Long duration (8-10s) minor damage reflection (say 5-10%) buff that adds threat equal to 2x damage taken and marks/taunts anything that had it's damage reflected.
Togglable (5s cooldown) Your incoming healing becomes 0. Whenever block is active, also block 80% of the damage dealt to any party member, add part of the damage blocked as threat.
Restore the facility of Supremacy of Steel to proc Glyphs as it is not a reflect power.
Changes to Supremacy of Steel were too harsh. Halve the Action Point Gain and rework Knight’s Valor to affect the party only.
If Action Point Gain from Supremacy of Steel is reduced then other parts of its function (such as duration or damage) must be changed to maintain a balance and its usefulness in both PVP and PVE.
Changing the damage output of Supremacy of Steel when used with Knight’s Valor was necessary especially for PVP but it reduced the effectiveness of the combo dramatically in PVE for controlling Threat.
Lower the Action Point Gain from Supremacy of Steel for PVP only.
Recruit play testers for new PVP content from the ‘high end community’ to test PVP changes before implementation.
Change Tide of Iron to a charge-up Power which Knockbacks/Prones targets.
Increase Action Point Gain from Blocking high damage hits and normalize hitting attacks to generate more Action Point Gain when Blocked. If this already exists then please review the current equations.
The GF requires a complete new rework. Buffs are helping a bit but they are a patch on a bad class design.
GFs now need a free Respec.
GFs need a DPS boost to balance out other classes.
Comments:
Feats are better since Mod4.
Extra Mitigation is good.
Improving KV and ItF was needed for the GF but the current improvements have made those two Powers too good not to use which leaves only one other choice of Power and makes the game boring.
Current mechanics, particularly Guard, enables a Protector GF to ‘carry’ any party through any content. There is some skill involved but overall it feels dumbed-down.
A Conqueror GF is enjoyable to play yet no one wants them as a tank if they aren’t using KV and ItF, as the party prefers the increased damage and survivability. This means GFs currently offer the option to either play a fun build or play an effective build. A fun and effective option to play would be good.
Supremacy of Steel is now the worst daily to use for protection and defense after previously being the best option a GF had for generating damage threat.
Many GFs use mark as a long range controlled means to pull mobs. It out ranges any other power and is extremely effective in establishing early mob control. The tab mechanic, might be dull, but it is not without merit or completely useless.
There are no problems with the recent changes to Supremacy of Steel. The developers said it did not work as they want it to and there doesn’t appear to be any argument from the player base here or elsewhere why they have failed.
A GF without the ability to mark targets as needed, isn't a tank. The main advantage of mark currently is its unlimited unrestricted useability and its extreme long range. Making it an encounter would, by default, limit its useability.
Modifying the functionality of tab is necessary, but I don't want to have to choose between Knight's Valor and Into the Fray.
Thanks for the fixes, especially to the GF - those were needed badly! There is still more to do overall, but I appreciate what has been done so far!
Supremacy of steel damage wasn't the issue, it was the glyphs.
Why must they remove AP gain during supremacy of steel? Other skills can still gain AP though, it will be more feasible to at least gain AP for the GFs action and not just remove AP totally.
Sorry, but this is way overkill. I went tactician and don't even get ap for my capstone. If you plan for all classes to not gain ap during active dailies (which I personally don't think is a good idea, it will make quick casted dailies superior to long lasting ones and pure burst damage superior to buffs) fine.
But I think it should be different for a capstone, you invested a lot of points to get it and you should get something for it no matter what. I mean, something like this (deactivating a capstone) exists for no other class.
SOS is probably shelved as well as it is useless damage-wise now.
There are tons of viable GF builds in both PvP and PvE without relying on KV and perma dailies.
GF can kick some serious <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>$ even without KV or SoS slotted. But then again, that requires you to have more skill than holding shift down and activating SoS once in a while.
No one is complaining about GFs role in dungeons. They wouldn't have anything bad to say.
Instead, practically all the complaints about guardian fighters comes from their ability to tank well in PvP matches. Just a bunch of sore loosers, really.
There is no reason for a GF to use KV and Enforced Threat. Without the ability to generate action points we can no longer heal ourselves (fighter's recovery).
I don't understand why GF should not gain AP when he is hit, when he use skill, etc ... just because he have use his daily SoS. To not gain AP from SoS will be fine, to not gain AP from any usual way is a big mistake. Actually, if you are tactician, using SoS mean sacrifice your AP generation from hit you receive. For all spec, using SoS mean you will not be rewarded by AP from all thing you will do next.
You just totally changed how the entire class works because you don't want to nerf your glyphs? So, just to be clear. Rather than remove an item that is so broken ESPECIALLY for HR's and SW's (oh yeah that is coming) - you completely change moves that have been that way since the beginning. Is that correct? You take the protector GF build with KV and Guarded assault and take out those ridiculous glyphs, and it's a solid set up, soaks damage, mitigates it for the team, and they take a little damage, you add glyphs and it is a 300% damage increase. So the rational answer was to change the moves entirely - so the glyphs don't work on GF classes, and still work on all the other classes? Can someone explain that for me?
I can understand the idea of separating dailies that simply function as an additional damaging hit/spell and those that function as a lasting buff, but eliminating AP gain while the latter type is active introduces so many issues it cannot possibly be a good idea.
First off comes balancing, if players have to lock themselves out of gaining action points the trade-off has to be relevant. This means the effect of the buff has to be very noticeable compared to the duration of the buff, Fighter's Recovery being a good example here: adding a very high amount of lifesteal for a fairly short duration, essentially making it a means to fill up your health pool if you can time and utilize it well. Such a power suffers little from it allowing AP gain for the duration or not. However as the duration increases the per-second effect of the buff has to increase to offset the lost AP; if Hallowed Ground in it's current state would disallow any AP gain I certainly wouldn't fault DCs for not putting it on their bar. ~15 seconds (unsure on the exact duration) of no action points is far too high a price for the effect. So the effect would have to be buffed alot or duration decreased substantially while effect buffed to a lesser extent. A large buff to the per-second effect means it will likely become very prominent in PvP while being balanced in PvE, or balanced in PvP while irrelevant in PvE.
The same of course applies to Supremacy of Steel; it was already a fairly low damage power (the already partially addressed glyphs and to a lesser extent the irresistability of it were however an issue) but it added alot of utility in PvE. With it's current 8-12s duration (based on point invested) of no AP gain it has no place whatsoever in PvE, while it previously filled the role of being able to grab aggro of mobs spread over a large area which is more or less a norm in fast-paced skirmishes and dungeons nowadays. An attempt to make it relevant in PvE while keeping the duratiion would mean increasing the reflected damage several times over, say 35-50% of incoming damage, this would of course make it ridiculously powerful in PvP and we're back at the starting point.
Secondly, separating buff powers into those that prevent AP gain (dailies, at least some of them: is Villain's Menace such a daily? Spinning Strike? Tyrannical Threat? Gates of Hell?) and those that do not creates confusion unless it's very transparent to the player. Hallowed Ground not granting AP is a bug? How can this possibly be when nothing in the game suggests you wouldn't gain AP while it's active? Same with SoS, none of the tooltips in-game suggest in any way it'll prevent AP gain. In fact, none of the buff-type dailies on my characters even as much as hint towards any sort of no-AP drawback.
GF personal damage in PVE is a joke at best, even with conq spec. A conq NOT doing into the fray has an *outside* shot at topping the pain givers.
Can we please STOP ruining classes based strictly on PvP? This is the best GF have EVER been for PvE. They are not a class meant to do horrendous amounts of damage. You want a fighter that can do that... play a GWF. The only solution to this could be make the conquerer ONLY DPS... We are a support class... We are not supposed to be on top of the damage charts...
schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited October 2014
Guarded Assault no longer proc Glyphs
Nerfed by the latest pacth it was so i think : Glyphs will not proc from reflective DMG like SoS or Guarded Assault .
But it still proc from Fey twistle.
I love most of them ideas damnacious. Thanks for putting the time in to put this together. I hope the devs listen and make our class have more options for pve and also some fixes/ improvements in pvp
Crixus - PVP GF
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited October 2014
Powers like boar charge, bull charge, takedown and many more are sometimes going through block.
Guard sometimes stays up permanently until let go.
Guard can just drop for no reason.
Guard sometimes doesn't activate right away.
Guard sometimes doesn't activate right away.
Villains menace sometimes doesn't grant cc immunity.
Steel defense doesn't grant immunity from all dmg.
Knights valor sometimes deactivating for no reason.
Those are all lag and lateny realated if i where you i wont post it .
Those are all lag and lateny realated if i where you i wont post it .
I have noticed it without lag, where my guard just won't activate, it's definitely a bug and even so I think it should be brought to the devs attention. These are causing problems for our class in both pvp and pve and it's not fair to just leave them in. All we can do is report them and hope
Crixus - PVP GF
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
I submitted this weeks report and have provided it for you below.
Thank you for all of your contributions and please keep it up!
In my report upon your feedback I have tried to either retain your initial wording or summarised it as best I can.
Please let me know if I've missed anything or if I stuffed up.
Thanks again!
So, you basically gave them a million things to look at, most of which will probably NOT get looked at and many of which countered eachother.
What we need to start doing/submitting is more detailed explanations of each thing. For instance, suggesting something like:
"Change Mark to last for 1 minute and give bonus damage." - This doesnt really tell them much. Is this giving MORE bonus damage to the already 20% + Combat advantage? Or is the suggestion merely to increase mark from 20 seconds to 1 minute?
I think it would be worth while for us as a community to take maybe the top 5-10 things submitted from last week, and really "hone" them into some solid suggestions that are detailed.
Just making a mere "list" of an item doesnt "flush" out the suggestion to the point of it being worth writing. What I mean is that when a DEV sees:
"Replace Tab Marking with similar to the GWF Tab where certain abilities automatically apply mark for a limited duration." GWFs "tab" doesnt apply mark for a limited duration.
What type of "tab" should GFs have that COULD be similar to GWFs? A DR boost and CC immunity? I dunno if that would work TBH.
Or
"Change Tab to spin the GF 180 degrees with Guard up." What does this even mean/do? Guard is already a 180 degree, its just a poor positioning that is 180 degrees from the actual SHIELD which means if someone is standing next to the GF they are behind the shield 180 degrees thus able to hit the GF....
Most of these suggestions I read, I couldnt honestly tell what point was trying to be communicated across.
Things LIKE:
"Change Shield Talent or Guarded Assault to give a buff to Deflection Chance."
or
"Change Threatening Rush and Enforced Threat to ‘Hard Mark’ similar to the GWF." are straight forward. It discusses the desired change effectively.
So lets put more clarity and simplicity into these posts so its easier to get the points across!!!! Ill Start:
"Change Tab Marking to an Encounter Power and have Tab act to switch between an Offensive Stance (similar to Into the Fray) or Defensive Stance (similar to Knight’s Valor). Replace Knight’s Valor and Into the Fray with a new or Class Power such as Daring Shout."
Id like to see this put back on next weeks submission but to read:
"Change Tab to an "offensive" and "defensive" stance. Offensive Stance operates like "Into the Fray" and it buffs damage/run speed and grants stamina regen. This would operate like an "aura" with 100% uptime around the GF for 50'. The Defensive stance would be "Knights Valor" but given a reduced range to 60-80' with again 100% uptime. Changing Stances puts a 8-10 second CD on the ability to change stances again (basically removes constant swapping but enables swapping for certain situations)"
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited October 2014
Things LIKE:
"Change Shield Talent or Guarded Assault to give a buff to Deflection Chance."
or
"Change Threatening Rush and Enforced Threat to ‘Hard Mark’ similar to the GWF." are straight forward. It discusses the desired change effectively.
So lets put more clarity and simplicity into these posts so its easier to get the points across!!!! Ill Start:
Suggestion:
1. Change Shild talent or Guarded Assault so it will give pure % bonus deflection .
Reason: GF have the lowest deflection in the game and plate classes in D&D have the highest deflection chance .
2. Change Enduring Warrior so instead killing give you some life it shoud give pure % LS stat or pure % Regen stat.
Enduring Warrior (?) dont represent the name of this passiv skill. Also GF is not a killing machine any other class have better LS and self healing then GF (ps: when you slot ,it will heal you in a full dungeon run only 72000-80000 hp total this is nothing"with 50 k hp").
3. Change Enchanced Mark to give bonus dmg for guardian and when you slot it your mark last for 1 min. Noone use this passive.
My original suggestions .
So i wanted to point out GF biggest weaknes are Deflection & LS we dont have passive healing feats like HR or GWF or DC SW TR hell even CW have 1. The only one we have is Take Measure what is bugged like hell dont work at all.
And i talked about Enchanced Mark passive power not about Enforced Threat & TR.
I get a lot of utility out of the current mark, but the utility is primarily built upon Enchanced MArk + Knight's Valor + Mark.
What happens when you use all those 3 things together is that mark almost always hard taunts from across the room anything on anyone. Without 1 of the 3 then it doesn't actually work. What happens when one of the 3 is missing is: you mark, you get the mobs attention, but then someone just DPSs and the mob goes right back to the squishy without actually having ran over to you, but what happens with all 3 is: KV gives you constant hate generation while it damages someone else and Enhanced Mark gives you constant hate generation, then it is usually enough to cause things to come run over to you and you never have to go run up to them. It is pretty handy.
I frown at breaking that combo.
To be clear I don't use the triple combo all the time just when I feel like I need to be able to pull things to me from across the room.
I get a lot of utility out of the current mark, but the utility is primarily built upon Enchanced MArk + Knight's Valor + Mark.
What happens when you use all those 3 things together is that mark almost always hard taunts from across the room anything on anyone. Without 1 of the 3 then it doesn't actually work. What happens when one of the 3 is missing is: you mark, you get the mobs attention, but then someone just DPSs and the mob goes right back to the squishy without actually having ran over to you, but what happens with all 3 is: KV gives you constant hate generation while it damages someone else and Enhanced Mark gives you constant hate generation, then it is usually enough to cause things to come run over to you and you never have to go run up to them. It is pretty handy.
I frown at breaking that combo.
To be clear I don't use the triple combo all the time just when I feel like I need to be able to pull things to me from across the room.
Honestly I think the only way to make the current Tab Mark NOT lack-luster is if it starts to lean more towards the actual table top rules of how mark works:
"While a target is marked, it takes a −2 penalty to attack rolls for any attack that doesn’t include you as a target."
"When a marked enemy is adjacent to the fighter who marked it, and shifts or makes an attack that does not include the fighter who marked it as a target, the fighter who marked it can make a melee basic attack against it as an immediate interrupt action."
"In its most basic form, being marked means that you have a penalty to attack rolls against everyone, except the one who has marked you. "
"For more advanced marks, violating the mark, by making attacks which do not include the one who has marked you, will trigger some sort of punishment; usually in the form of attacks or outright automatic damage."
So How Could this work in this game?!?
Guardian Fighters NEED the +20% damage to marked targets becasue frankly our weapon damage should not be as low as it is, so I feel the 20% boost merely makes GFs deal the damage they NORMALLY should. So Keep 20% damage to marked targets.
Basic Marks: Applied via encounters/at wills etc should DECREASE the damage dealt to anyone EXCEPT the person who marked them. Because of this, you can remove the addition of combat advantage to mark. So in all Mark - increases the damage the "mark-er" does to the "mark-ee" by 20% and the mark-ee deals 20% LESS damage to anyone BUT the "Mark-er"
Advanced Mark (GF Tab): What this would ADD to the concept of mark (above) is create some time of "interrupt" to attacks made against a GFs teammate. This could take many different forms but here could be ONE:
When a target is marked and attacks a teammate (not the Mark-er) the GF is given the ability to press "tab" again to trigger a special attack interrupting (or even stunning) the target. This could be a short "lunge" like Threat Rush, or it could be a flat out melee strike only (like griffons wrath).
Either way, thats the ONLY way I see Mark being a viable "class specific feature" is a sort of melee control when not attacking the GF.
Fyi Block(Guard) is bugged currently since the last patch. With 80% only being blocked at all times and the remaining 20% not being affected by our own dr and tenacity. IE almost 3x damage going through block in pvp.
Fyi Block(Guard) is bugged currently since the last patch. With 80% only being blocked at all times and the remaining 20% not being affected by our own dr and tenacity. IE almost 3x damage going through block in pvp.
This! Ive noticed alot more hurtin' with Shield Up since the last patch.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
...
What we need to start doing/submitting is more detailed explanations of each thing. For instance, suggesting something like: ...
I am not quite sure whether a wall of text - written overly lengthy and enthusiastically - is going to help the developers; do you not think they get to know by themselves what consequences the suggestions would have?
Honestly I think the only way to make the current Tab Mark NOT lack-luster is if it starts to lean more towards the actual table top rules of how mark works: ...
Actually, this game is loosely based on the system of Dungeons and Dragons and more so by name, so that the actual rules for Mark are not quite helping any further; Mark would be some kind of debuff like increasing the chance of missing for the marked figure but the benefit for the marking figure would be quite low.
Rather the impact of Mark could be improved or the whole mechanic overhauled like already suggested.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited October 2014
Dear damnacious !
Our new Set in mod 5 is a pure bull****!
Power: 1023 almost ok
Recovery :315 ???? super bad
Arp:811 almost ok
Crit: 0 As always
DEF:2821 what a hell they are thinking? def is capped at 3000 and we have shild too this gives GF nothing i say agan nothing 0.01 % dr ?
Deflect :383 What? we have the lowest deflection in the game and we got this ?
Regen:315 lower then draconic super bad move too
LS: 0
HP: 3670 Why the hell GWF can have 5000 and we have 3670 why ?
This is the worst set they ever made usless junk .
Pls represent us and tell them they are total wrong whit those stats .
Draconic armor are 200% better then this also both Black ice are better they call this t3 i cant call it t1.
Draconic
Power:1082
Recovery:881
Arp:652
Crit :0 as always
Def: 1396 "and i am ower the cap by 1000 def with this armor set"
Deflect:652 still low but x2 times better then the new t3
Regen:326
HP: 2030
Also the set bonus is 10 times more usefull then the new one.5 % more Dr for the full pt.
Power: 1023 almost ok
Recovery :315 ???? super bad
Arp:811 almost ok
Crit: 0 As always
DEF:2821 what a hell they are thinking? def is capped at 3000 and we have shild too this gives GF nothing i say agan nothing 0.01 % dr ?
Deflect :383 What? we have the lowest deflection in the game and we got this ?
Regen:315 lower then draconic super bad move too
LS: 0
HP: 3670 Why the hell GWF can have 5000 and we have 3670 why ?
This is the worst set they ever made usless junk .
Pls represent us and tell them they are total wrong whit those stats .
Draconic armor are 200% better then this also both Black ice are better they call this t3 i cant call it t1.
Draconic
Power:1082
Recovery:881
Arp:652
Crit :0 as always
Def: 1396 "and i am ower the cap by 1000 def with this armor set"
Deflect:652 still low but x2 times better then the new t3
Regen:326
HP: 2030
Also the set bonus is 10 times more usefull then the new one.5 % more Dr for the full pt.
Very good point. Not sure why we always get way too much def on all sets... and 99% of our 2 set bonuses is defense too....
If we get so much then the defense cap should not affect us -.-
Crixus - PVP GF
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
Very good point. Not sure why we always get way too much def on all sets... and 99% of our 2 set bonuses is defense too....
If we get so much then the defense cap should not affect us -.-
The new Set shoud give more hp and only 1000 def more recovery more deflection and some crit .
Also i find the 4 set bonus unusefull it shoud give a GF aura decrease the incoming dmg 10% and decrase crit chance 10%.
By the way all 3 T1 and T2 armor sett are better then this one .
Hell even PVP armor set with buged bonus is better then this one.
+ One more thig to damnacious you picked up this heavy burden .
And you need to be active cuz as i see the worst class after TR and DC rework is GF agan .
We need to be the tank but any other class cuz of LS is better tank in PVE then we.
They can take more dmg and survive .
If you search the forum with open eyes you can see DC can take 30 -40 add and dont do anithing and he can stay afk and will survive. HR is better tank GWF is better tank CW better tank SW better tank and i am sure TR will better tank then GF .
Now lets see the DPS all 6 class have better DPS ?
Then whats the role of the GF ? We just piced up the DC debuff buff role?
As i see we desperately need agan a huge rework not just a patch and a litte buff here and there.
Basic Marks: Applied via encounters/at wills etc should DECREASE the damage dealt to anyone EXCEPT the person who marked them.
There is a feat for that. 10% in the tactician tree. You can splash it if you want. I used to run it before they revamped our feats. I had the thought "TRs should get more stealth meter when they dodge," but I never posted it because... there is a feat for that. It is very difficult to argue what should be a feat and what should be a default. It comes down to developer taste.
All and all the difference between what you want and what we have is 10% and whether or not someone wants to splash 10 points into tactician tree.
damnaciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 354Arc User
edited October 2014
Thanks for the great feedback so far guys! Keep it coming!
A big 'thank you' to you all so far for making the extra effort to post your feedback in my preferred format and style too. It really helps me out and I really appreciate it!
Suggestion: Guard math revised Spec: All This goes back to my bug report where in it I point out the change in how we are taking twice the damage through block.
Something needs to change as the current block is useless to use unless you use guarded assault and lifesteal so you don't die after a few hits in elol as currently block does little to save me now unless I get endless consumption procs(lifesteal crits).
EDIT: Also after some testing critical hits through block seem to be doing more damage than they should which may mean tenacity is not being applied to block, but this is only a suspicion. Also what could be done to make Guard worth something is to change the 80% hard cap to 85% as this is needed for pve in some situations.
EDIT 2:After testing it seems to be when you initially put up block there is a small window where guard is not engaging and your regular dr is the only thing decreasing damage done. And to add more to this problem it seems to have a higher base damage than what it is initially which is causing even more damage than just taking the hit normally. And its seems to be fast attack at wills and encounters that benefit from this and the issue of block itself not engaging right away requiring you take hits before it begins to mitigate properly.
Comments
I have always thought this too! It would be a great idea.
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At present, if my opinion is going to be expressed to Akromatik and Gentleman Crush then it will be posted in this forum using my preferred format and style and then submitted in the same manner with the opinion of everyone else.
(As a side note, the reason I ask for the format and style depicted is so that I can submit your feedback under those categories of Bugs, Questions, Suggestions and Comments and it really does make it easier for me and hopefully the Devs. I'm still getting a hang of what is required!
If you would like any information about me as a player, please feel free to either refer to my post in the Nomination thread and / or message me. I applied to take on the responsibility of the role of GF Class Advocate and my suitability for the role was determined, I imagine, by Akromatik and Gentleman Crush. If you would like to discuss my suitability for this role please feel free to send me a private message or approach Akromatik or Gentleman Crush.
So, enough about me. Let's keep this thread relevant. This thread isn't about me. It's about GFs and what we can do to make them the best they can be. Let's work together and, by providing relevant and constructive feedback, we will have the opportunity to make our class great!
I think you can make the logical argument that the devs module 5 emphasis on high-hitting-lower-density mobs have changed the amount of AP gain for blocking shots per a damage output of mobs. Before getting hit by many things would cause a storm of AP gain while your shield held, but now that we got these larger slower harder hitting designs AP can trickle in while damage is similar to what it would be under the smaller mob paradigm. We didn't really notice at first because of KV, but now that KV got nerfed this fact has occurred to me.
If you go into something old and 10 things hit you, you gain AP at one rate for blocking mobs, but then if you imagine you condense those damages down into 3 mobs (like the new style dungeons) and it seems like your AP generation gets sliced by at least half while damage incoming toward you remains the same. The ultimate expression of this problem comes when a dev decides to condense all that damage down into 1 mob, and then AP generated by blocking trickles in and you primarily generate it with your offense.
I think devs should normalize higher hitting attacks to generate more AP when blocked, and if they do already they need to look at those equations a bit.
I actually remember asking gentlemen about this prior in mod 4, and he said with the block changes blocking AP generation was untouched which is mechanically true, so this isn't about that. It is just about the way the amount of AP we get in encounters for being a pin cushion seems to depend on the whether it is a bunch of weenie hits or big hits, and not so much on the amount of damage we are taking in.
Also i Suggest ask for DPS boost now even Conq GF will hit like a little girl with lollipop.
All other class got soo much massive DPS boost , GF(dps) will be much more worst then before mod 4.
By the way all other class have higher survive ability then GF. HR 60% deflect WM& 30% LS /SW 60% Dr +25% LS /GWF UR Unstoppable 60% deflect/ DC high deflect 40% healing and i wont talk about rework/TR 5 sec immunity and steath insane regen in steath w/o HD (in pvp) CW best DR in the game 25% dr what cannot be mignated do arp or pf.
I submitted this weeks report and have provided it for you below.
Thank you for all of your contributions and please keep it up!
In my report upon your feedback I have tried to either retain your initial wording or summarised it as best I can.
Please let me know if I've missed anything or if I stuffed up.
Thanks again!
Questions:
Suggestions:
Comments:
But I think it should be different for a capstone, you invested a lot of points to get it and you should get something for it no matter what. I mean, something like this (deactivating a capstone) exists for no other class.
Instead, practically all the complaints about guardian fighters comes from their ability to tank well in PvP matches. Just a bunch of sore loosers, really.
First off comes balancing, if players have to lock themselves out of gaining action points the trade-off has to be relevant. This means the effect of the buff has to be very noticeable compared to the duration of the buff, Fighter's Recovery being a good example here: adding a very high amount of lifesteal for a fairly short duration, essentially making it a means to fill up your health pool if you can time and utilize it well. Such a power suffers little from it allowing AP gain for the duration or not. However as the duration increases the per-second effect of the buff has to increase to offset the lost AP; if Hallowed Ground in it's current state would disallow any AP gain I certainly wouldn't fault DCs for not putting it on their bar. ~15 seconds (unsure on the exact duration) of no action points is far too high a price for the effect. So the effect would have to be buffed alot or duration decreased substantially while effect buffed to a lesser extent. A large buff to the per-second effect means it will likely become very prominent in PvP while being balanced in PvE, or balanced in PvP while irrelevant in PvE.
The same of course applies to Supremacy of Steel; it was already a fairly low damage power (the already partially addressed glyphs and to a lesser extent the irresistability of it were however an issue) but it added alot of utility in PvE. With it's current 8-12s duration (based on point invested) of no AP gain it has no place whatsoever in PvE, while it previously filled the role of being able to grab aggro of mobs spread over a large area which is more or less a norm in fast-paced skirmishes and dungeons nowadays. An attempt to make it relevant in PvE while keeping the duratiion would mean increasing the reflected damage several times over, say 35-50% of incoming damage, this would of course make it ridiculously powerful in PvP and we're back at the starting point.
Secondly, separating buff powers into those that prevent AP gain (dailies, at least some of them: is Villain's Menace such a daily? Spinning Strike? Tyrannical Threat? Gates of Hell?) and those that do not creates confusion unless it's very transparent to the player. Hallowed Ground not granting AP is a bug? How can this possibly be when nothing in the game suggests you wouldn't gain AP while it's active? Same with SoS, none of the tooltips in-game suggest in any way it'll prevent AP gain. In fact, none of the buff-type dailies on my characters even as much as hint towards any sort of no-AP drawback.
Thread Links:
Nerfed by the latest pacth it was so i think : Glyphs will not proc from reflective DMG like SoS or Guarded Assault .
But it still proc from Fey twistle.
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I have noticed it without lag, where my guard just won't activate, it's definitely a bug and even so I think it should be brought to the devs attention. These are causing problems for our class in both pvp and pve and it's not fair to just leave them in. All we can do is report them and hope
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Thanks for the input buddy!
However, I am not at liberty to decide what to include or exclude.
If someone posts it then it is my job to pass it on regardless.
I would like to volunteer myself !
Also for PVE content Testing if needed !
So, you basically gave them a million things to look at, most of which will probably NOT get looked at and many of which countered eachother.
What we need to start doing/submitting is more detailed explanations of each thing. For instance, suggesting something like:
"Change Mark to last for 1 minute and give bonus damage." - This doesnt really tell them much. Is this giving MORE bonus damage to the already 20% + Combat advantage? Or is the suggestion merely to increase mark from 20 seconds to 1 minute?
I think it would be worth while for us as a community to take maybe the top 5-10 things submitted from last week, and really "hone" them into some solid suggestions that are detailed.
Just making a mere "list" of an item doesnt "flush" out the suggestion to the point of it being worth writing. What I mean is that when a DEV sees:
"Replace Tab Marking with similar to the GWF Tab where certain abilities automatically apply mark for a limited duration." GWFs "tab" doesnt apply mark for a limited duration.
What type of "tab" should GFs have that COULD be similar to GWFs? A DR boost and CC immunity? I dunno if that would work TBH.
Or
"Change Tab to spin the GF 180 degrees with Guard up." What does this even mean/do? Guard is already a 180 degree, its just a poor positioning that is 180 degrees from the actual SHIELD which means if someone is standing next to the GF they are behind the shield 180 degrees thus able to hit the GF....
Most of these suggestions I read, I couldnt honestly tell what point was trying to be communicated across.
Things LIKE:
"Change Shield Talent or Guarded Assault to give a buff to Deflection Chance."
or
"Change Threatening Rush and Enforced Threat to ‘Hard Mark’ similar to the GWF." are straight forward. It discusses the desired change effectively.
So lets put more clarity and simplicity into these posts so its easier to get the points across!!!! Ill Start:
"Change Tab Marking to an Encounter Power and have Tab act to switch between an Offensive Stance (similar to Into the Fray) or Defensive Stance (similar to Knight’s Valor). Replace Knight’s Valor and Into the Fray with a new or Class Power such as Daring Shout."
Id like to see this put back on next weeks submission but to read:
"Change Tab to an "offensive" and "defensive" stance. Offensive Stance operates like "Into the Fray" and it buffs damage/run speed and grants stamina regen. This would operate like an "aura" with 100% uptime around the GF for 50'. The Defensive stance would be "Knights Valor" but given a reduced range to 60-80' with again 100% uptime. Changing Stances puts a 8-10 second CD on the ability to change stances again (basically removes constant swapping but enables swapping for certain situations)"
My original suggestions .
So i wanted to point out GF biggest weaknes are Deflection & LS we dont have passive healing feats like HR or GWF or DC SW TR hell even CW have 1. The only one we have is Take Measure what is bugged like hell dont work at all.
And i talked about Enchanced Mark passive power not about Enforced Threat & TR.
What happens when you use all those 3 things together is that mark almost always hard taunts from across the room anything on anyone. Without 1 of the 3 then it doesn't actually work. What happens when one of the 3 is missing is: you mark, you get the mobs attention, but then someone just DPSs and the mob goes right back to the squishy without actually having ran over to you, but what happens with all 3 is: KV gives you constant hate generation while it damages someone else and Enhanced Mark gives you constant hate generation, then it is usually enough to cause things to come run over to you and you never have to go run up to them. It is pretty handy.
I frown at breaking that combo.
To be clear I don't use the triple combo all the time just when I feel like I need to be able to pull things to me from across the room.
Honestly I think the only way to make the current Tab Mark NOT lack-luster is if it starts to lean more towards the actual table top rules of how mark works:
"While a target is marked, it takes a −2 penalty to attack rolls for any attack that doesn’t include you as a target."
"When a marked enemy is adjacent to the fighter who marked it, and shifts or makes an attack that does not include the fighter who marked it as a target, the fighter who marked it can make a melee basic attack against it as an immediate interrupt action."
"In its most basic form, being marked means that you have a penalty to attack rolls against everyone, except the one who has marked you. "
"For more advanced marks, violating the mark, by making attacks which do not include the one who has marked you, will trigger some sort of punishment; usually in the form of attacks or outright automatic damage."
So How Could this work in this game?!?
Guardian Fighters NEED the +20% damage to marked targets becasue frankly our weapon damage should not be as low as it is, so I feel the 20% boost merely makes GFs deal the damage they NORMALLY should. So Keep 20% damage to marked targets.
Basic Marks: Applied via encounters/at wills etc should DECREASE the damage dealt to anyone EXCEPT the person who marked them. Because of this, you can remove the addition of combat advantage to mark. So in all Mark - increases the damage the "mark-er" does to the "mark-ee" by 20% and the mark-ee deals 20% LESS damage to anyone BUT the "Mark-er"
Advanced Mark (GF Tab): What this would ADD to the concept of mark (above) is create some time of "interrupt" to attacks made against a GFs teammate. This could take many different forms but here could be ONE:
When a target is marked and attacks a teammate (not the Mark-er) the GF is given the ability to press "tab" again to trigger a special attack interrupting (or even stunning) the target. This could be a short "lunge" like Threat Rush, or it could be a flat out melee strike only (like griffons wrath).
Either way, thats the ONLY way I see Mark being a viable "class specific feature" is a sort of melee control when not attacking the GF.
This! Ive noticed alot more hurtin' with Shield Up since the last patch.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
I am not quite sure whether a wall of text - written overly lengthy and enthusiastically - is going to help the developers; do you not think they get to know by themselves what consequences the suggestions would have?
Actually, this game is loosely based on the system of Dungeons and Dragons and more so by name, so that the actual rules for Mark are not quite helping any further; Mark would be some kind of debuff like increasing the chance of missing for the marked figure but the benefit for the marking figure would be quite low.
Rather the impact of Mark could be improved or the whole mechanic overhauled like already suggested.
Our new Set in mod 5 is a pure bull****!
Power: 1023 almost ok
Recovery :315 ???? super bad
Arp:811 almost ok
Crit: 0 As always
DEF:2821 what a hell they are thinking? def is capped at 3000 and we have shild too this gives GF nothing i say agan nothing 0.01 % dr ?
Deflect :383 What? we have the lowest deflection in the game and we got this ?
Regen:315 lower then draconic super bad move too
LS: 0
HP: 3670 Why the hell GWF can have 5000 and we have 3670 why ?
This is the worst set they ever made usless junk .
Pls represent us and tell them they are total wrong whit those stats .
Draconic armor are 200% better then this also both Black ice are better they call this t3 i cant call it t1.
Draconic
Power:1082
Recovery:881
Arp:652
Crit :0 as always
Def: 1396 "and i am ower the cap by 1000 def with this armor set"
Deflect:652 still low but x2 times better then the new t3
Regen:326
HP: 2030
Also the set bonus is 10 times more usefull then the new one.5 % more Dr for the full pt.
Very good point. Not sure why we always get way too much def on all sets... and 99% of our 2 set bonuses is defense too....
If we get so much then the defense cap should not affect us -.-
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The new Set shoud give more hp and only 1000 def more recovery more deflection and some crit .
Also i find the 4 set bonus unusefull it shoud give a GF aura decrease the incoming dmg 10% and decrase crit chance 10%.
By the way all 3 T1 and T2 armor sett are better then this one .
Hell even PVP armor set with buged bonus is better then this one.
+ One more thig to damnacious you picked up this heavy burden .
And you need to be active cuz as i see the worst class after TR and DC rework is GF agan .
We need to be the tank but any other class cuz of LS is better tank in PVE then we.
They can take more dmg and survive .
If you search the forum with open eyes you can see DC can take 30 -40 add and dont do anithing and he can stay afk and will survive. HR is better tank GWF is better tank CW better tank SW better tank and i am sure TR will better tank then GF .
Now lets see the DPS all 6 class have better DPS ?
Then whats the role of the GF ? We just piced up the DC debuff buff role?
As i see we desperately need agan a huge rework not just a patch and a litte buff here and there.
There is a feat for that. 10% in the tactician tree. You can splash it if you want. I used to run it before they revamped our feats. I had the thought "TRs should get more stealth meter when they dodge," but I never posted it because... there is a feat for that. It is very difficult to argue what should be a feat and what should be a default. It comes down to developer taste.
All and all the difference between what you want and what we have is 10% and whether or not someone wants to splash 10 points into tactician tree.
A big 'thank you' to you all so far for making the extra effort to post your feedback in my preferred format and style too. It really helps me out and I really appreciate it!
Spec: All
This goes back to my bug report where in it I point out the change in how we are taking twice the damage through block.
Something needs to change as the current block is useless to use unless you use guarded assault and lifesteal so you don't die after a few hits in elol as currently block does little to save me now unless I get endless consumption procs(lifesteal crits).
EDIT: Also after some testing critical hits through block seem to be doing more damage than they should which may mean tenacity is not being applied to block, but this is only a suspicion. Also what could be done to make Guard worth something is to change the 80% hard cap to 85% as this is needed for pve in some situations.
EDIT 2:After testing it seems to be when you initially put up block there is a small window where guard is not engaging and your regular dr is the only thing decreasing damage done. And to add more to this problem it seems to have a higher base damage than what it is initially which is causing even more damage than just taking the hit normally. And its seems to be fast attack at wills and encounters that benefit from this and the issue of block itself not engaging right away requiring you take hits before it begins to mitigate properly.