I don't know why they would make damage from procs so high. IMO there should be no passive/proc/feat/glyph/irresistable damage at all, you should only do damage if you hit and if it's a high dps power, it should require plenty of skill to accomplish, this storm spell piercing blades intimidation stuff is garbage, might as well be point and click like WOW
Having a lot of AD to shop stuff for is not a skill. Copying someone else's build (or simply inferring what you need to get, as the number of variables aren't that big) and then making a reasonable approximation isn't hard either, even if it's not the best possible version.
You could argue it's no more difficult than that, but the Takedown combination requires you to move up to the target and hit it again. A surprisingly large amount of people have issues with that.
Maybe it's easy to block it or wait it out with sprinting. Dodging it is a different matter, as the powers have relatively fast animations and the feat proc seems to occur more or less instantaneously. Maybe that's a latency issue. But there's also the fact that it hits a large area, which has additional implications; the damage from both procs should at best be far less to any individual than a single IBS hit, because it can potentially (and often will) hit multiple players.
I agree, but lets be honest here its just like any other module.
Mod 2 we had 99% of good Sents geared exactly the same, using the same build/skills etc.
mod 3 most Destroyers were exactly the same, it also took relatively zero skill to win.
Now module 4 offers a variation of a build. There seem to be multiple versions available and multiple ways to gear your character. Thats why I dont want it removed, it should be a viable PVP option. Its unique and creative and uses different skills/setup than anything before.
I mean what you described above is the same for the "standard" builds from previous mods. This actually requires SOME "tradeoff" because you need to stack high power at the cost of other stats. So its not "clear cut" what is the best.
Fast animation timer? Yes. But long cooldowns as well.
Takes less skill? Perhaps, depends though, whats hard about FLS->Takedown? not to mention your stunned for 4+ seconds. With this its only the FLS stun and then the other two.
Personally I like the option alot. I think it needs to stay viable as ONE option. Ive seen Dest builds that are ok as well as other Sent builds.
It IS OP currently, and needs to be toned back some, but not removed. Otherwise they can just remove the feat and give the power actual DAMAGE and it would be the same. Atleast this takes some interesting gearing to use effectively.
I mean what you described above is the same for the "standard" builds from previous mods. This actually requires SOME "tradeoff" because you need to stack high power at the cost of other stats.
Actually, not really. I produced these numbers without changing anything in my setup or gear. Just some other feat choices, that cost me some stamina gain. Ofc you could sacrifice some stats to get even more dmg, but that would have even produced bigger numbers.
The main problem with the feat is that it is connected to two aoe powers. Pvp is not about 1vs1 only. There should no aoe powers which can proc 20k+ dmg passively. Encounter powers btw. Also, the cds of daring and come n get it maybe high, but so are the cds of IBS and FLS.
Also keep in mind that daring shout builds determination, makes you tankier and is an AOE mark, which profits also ur teamates.
Come n get it has a minor stun to its base effect. Its not long but still noticeable.
What I want to say is: sentinel has an encounter power that does 10k-30k AOE!!! Dmg, fast animation, buffs ur tankiness, builds determination, marks all targets which gives ur teamates also some benefits.
Its just to much.
Heck, my IBS does less dmg average than this feat proc.
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nezraalMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2014
@osterdrache read what ayroux just typed. and if there is a bug, crush or the development team will figure it out. honestly, if the skills are working properly even then Sentinels will lack damage. Realistically the only viable gear set for gwf is Pure Black Ice, keeping that in mind you need to sack two defense ring, etc to get your power to 6.5k Power, which to me is a practical peak if you want to maintain a viable health (~50k+) and would give approximately 4400 damage provided your DR% ignored is something around 4k. Then what? FLS ? By time you sprint you get 1-2 Sure Strike(s) that's it - unless you get CCed. The CD on DS is incredibly high as well.
A more practical rotation would be CAGI > FLS > IBS
A lot of destro run with BF with CD in TD which actually gives more damage than FLS > TD > IBS
So unless there is some bug doing postal damage, (I am sure they will double check) - the damage posted (if it works as intended) is fine. There is no 20k & 30k damage. GWF is barely a problem, see what HR can do with health leech recovery & dodge, TR doing damage with perma stealth, CW and storm spell - no comparison.
@osterdrache read what ayroux just typed. and if there is a bug, crush or the development team will figure it out. honestly, if the skills are working properly even then Sentinels will lack damage. Realistically the only viable gear set for gwf is Pure Black Ice, keeping that in mind you need to sack two defense ring, etc to get your power to 6.5k Power, which to me is a practical peak if you want to maintain a viable health (~50k+) and would give approximately 4400 damage provided your DR% ignored is something around 4k. Then what? FLS ? By time you sprint you get 1-2 Sure Strike(s) that's it - unless you get CCed. The CD on DS is incredibly high as well.
A more practical rotation would be CAGI > FLS > IBS
A lot of destro run with BF with CD in TD which actually gives more damage than FLS > TD > IBS
So unless there is some bug doing postal damage, (I am sure they will double check) - the damage posted (if it works as intended) is fine. There is no 20k & 30k damage. GWF is barely a problem, see what HR can do with health leech recovery & dodge, TR doing damage with perma stealth, CW and storm spell - no comparison.
The only thing I would suggest is that the feat DOES need to get toned down. IBS can only hit hard on targets with lower HP, versus this feat can outdamage IBS.
So does it need a nerf? Yes. But not REMOVED or not reduced to NOTHING.
Like I said before, I think 50% of power is probably too much, so maybe 35% seems more reasonable. Thats a 30% nerf to damage.
The only thing I would suggest is that the feat DOES need to get toned down. IBS can only hit hard on targets with lower HP, versus this feat can outdamage IBS.
So does it need a nerf? Yes. But not REMOVED or not reduced to NOTHING.
Like I said before, I think 50% of power is probably too much, so maybe 35% seems more reasonable. Thats a 30% nerf to damage.
If we're talking about nerfing this new feature, let's talk about buffing GWF base damage or something.
Currently, it's impossible to keep threat on a sentinel GWF unless you put glass cannon gears. With 6k power I already struggle with that and I have weapon master slotted and use CAGI and DS whenever possible, and it's still not enough to make the mob turn in some parties. Sure, I could get higher on power but then I'd have to give up on using a defensive set and be a squishy pseudo-tank.
Thus, if Intimidation is going to be nerfed hard then sentinel will be back to being unplayable. That's a fact.
If we're talking about nerfing this new feature, let's talk about buffing GWF base damage or something.
Currently, it's impossible to keep threat on a sentinel GWF unless you put glass cannon gears. With 6k power I already struggle with that and I have weapon master slotted and use CAGI and DS whenever possible, and it's still not enough to make the mob turn in some parties. Sure, I could get higher on power but then I'd have to give up on using a defensive set and be a squishy pseudo-tank.
Thus, if Intimidation is going to be nerfed hard then sentinel will be back to being unplayable. That's a fact.
You don't need a tank in any PvE instance (sadly). PvE GWFs are actually DPS machines. You don't need to keep threat on anything, it's hardly important in a game where everything can be kited and it's damage outhealed with LS.
Pretty much, you're are trying to keep a gamebreaking for PvP feature just so you can play in a way that few if any other GWFs do, in PvE, where there's about no challenge, and no people being one shot.
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nezraalMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The only thing I would suggest is that the feat DOES need to get toned down. IBS can only hit hard on targets with lower HP, versus this feat can outdamage IBS.
So does it need a nerf? Yes. But not REMOVED or not reduced to NOTHING.
Like I said before, I think 50% of power is probably too much, so maybe 35% seems more reasonable. Thats a 30% nerf to damage.
I usually agree with many of your ideas. I have respect for what you say, but I disagree with you here. Each person has their own opinion, and this is mine. Assuming the skills work properly, just as Crush tested:
1. IBS for destroyer is a much stronger hit. Reasons: 1/1 Destroyer's purpose + 5/5 Executioner for Destro Build.
So comparing IBS for Sentinel and Destroyer is like comparing apples & oranges. If IBS on sentinel is hitting lower then the build tree is suited for this purpose and players need to adapt. As a side bonus with Executioner Sure Strikes (30%) also benefit. So looking at it from one angle and comparing Skill X & Skill Y isn't the right approach. There is more to it.
2. All GWF will need at least one stun, agreed?
Compare FLS with 5/5 Relentless, 50% CD on takedown! From here you can go battle fury or go with another stun (FLS). So much stuns or chasing power here you can go additional (buffed)sure strike(s)! For sentinel FLS is the best bet and hardly scale with the extra strikes destroyers can land because of extra stun or extra stamina.
3. Cagi / DS is actually a higher risk attack on single targets: here is why.
TD > miss > faster CD on miss + CD from Relentless, then execute IBS (much lower risk of not failing)
Cagi / DS miss > high CD sit & wait, your sure strike(s) are much weaker - you are just a walking penguin
So it's not only high cd. it's also higher risk. The rewards should also be higher since it can be dodged & deflected without a proper stun. Don't let the faster animation time fool you!
4. AOE attack ? What AOE? Think outside the box as a CW / HR / SW
If HR, CW and SW are standing in one spot, clustered without moving they should be punished!
Good pre-made know how to split positions while holding nodes. If ranged classes think it's okay to stand close to GF or GWF dealing damage they need to re-evaluate their game play. Strife, back pedal, re-position do what you need to. If I am a CW / HR / SW and clustered in spot with another ranged class, allowing myself to take AOE damage from a Melee with another range class, then there is something wrong with this game play and I should be punished! Additionally don't forget the dodges , cc and health each each of these classes can do to survive. Range classes also need to learn to split to proper positions and play smarter out-ranging the AOE, after all this is a class that suppose to have "intelligence".
As a TR I should play solo with stealth and harass the enemy flag node (1 or 3). What's left? GF and the shield ?
I am assuming both builds above have taken 5/5 in Executioner Style 5/5 Relentless and 1/1 Purpose
Sentinel build with Power , Arp: 2 sec stun in FULL rotation, High CD + 1/2 Burst Damage but high risk compensated by defense
Destroyer build 1 : Strongest burst with semi-stun lock
Destroyer build 2 : Consistent damage with excellent escape & chase mechanism for hit & run
Sentinel build : AOE damage , weaker sure strike(s), lacks sufficient CC attack but compensated with defense
For the reasons posted above, I think we need to look at the broader picture and bring other skills and feats to the picture - I believe the feat, as it is, is perfectly viable and balanced! Besides, GWF do need a little loving. Don't just compare Destro GWF vs Sentinel GWF. It doesn't take a miracle to realize that in team vs team game play GWF are behind CW, HR, TR, GF and SW on same GS, 18k+ (other classes scale better).
After the GWF feat get a "fix" can someone also RE-EXAMINE the video up to the 6 sec mark where the HR has 90% hp and GWF sentinel has 65% hp left and get a "fix" for HR too? because otherwise, at this rate the poor GWF will have 0% hp and the hr will have 80% hp left in face tanking (i.e. range vs melee)!
So for better balance, please don't just "1" fix - make 5, they are:
1. Fix perma stealth of TR
2. The postal CW CC & damage
3. The HP recovery/leech, piercing and dodge from immortal HR
4. 22k Damage on CAGI
5. Re-examine the use of glyphs
Please have them tested on your 20k GS toons as balance should come with end gear. Thank you!
p.s. Also fix the terrible pvp match making system when someone wrote half asleep, to put a 19k GS and 4x8k pugs in the same team.
We can have different opinions thats fine. Im not entirely sure what your position is, but based on previous posts it seems your in favor of leaving it as is?
I think thats where the issue lies though. I agree with nearly everything you said however I dont know if you have tested this at "breaking" capacity. I know alot of GWFs who are totally gearing out for Power Stacking, while maintaining a desired "defensive" stat allocation and are able to crit in pvp matches for 15k-20k.
Now if it were up to me, there would be alot of GWF changes that need to happen, but its not. I think one of the most important things for this specific feat, is leaving it in the game, but it does need to be toned back a little because the fact that you can hit back to back hits off a feat that can crit for 20k, seems a bit much to me - when ONE GWF can wipe an entire team with his AOE.
Again, dont get me wrong, I LOVE that this is a viable option. However its TOO strong currently, atleast for a tier 3 feat.
Again, Ive been testing the numbers ALOT, I keep coming back to the 35% Power (down from 50%) range. Initially I said 30% but that may be too harsh considering a LARGE reason why players are able to deal the "amazing" damage people are "claiming" is because of low DR, low tenacity and ALOT of pots.
When you lookat the video attached of Jerkface on his GWF basically two shotting that TR, id like to know the DR/Tenacity/HP of the TR and the fact that Jerk has every pot imaginable.
What NEEDs to also happen is consumables disabled in PVP because it causes a MASSIVE skew in numbers. remove those, drop the feat down to about 35% of power from 50% and I think this will be ONE viable OPTION and not THE option.
After the GWF feat get a "fix" can someone also RE-EXAMINE the video up to the 6 sec mark where the HR has 95% hp and GWF sentinel has 55% hp left and get a "fix" for HR too? because otherwise, at this rate the poor GWF will have 0% hp and the hr will have 90% hp left in face tanking!
So for better balance, please don't just "1" fix - make 4, they are:
1. Fix perma stealth of TR
2. The postal CW damage
3. The HP recovery/leech and dodge from immortal HR
4. 22k Damage on CAGI
Please have them tested on your 20k GS toons as balance should come with end gear. Thank you!
p.s. Also fix the terrible pvp match making system when someone wrote half asleep, to put a 19k GS and 4x8k pugs in the same team.
BTW that video is of a TR not HR (type-error)
For your list:
1. Fix perma stealth of TR - I think this is coming with mod 5 so Ill wait to post on this.
2. The postal CW damage - A LARGE part of this comes from Red Dragon Glyphs.
3. The HP recovery/leech and dodge from immortal HR. This is an easy fix. Feat should be changed to a single proc, no stacking, of say 10% of your HP over 6 seconds healed. Does NOT refresh.
4. 22k Damage on CAGI - Discussed above.
5. REMOVAL of damage on glyphs, Red/Black/Green etc ONLY provide the stat bonuses of +800 for 20 seconds (respective stats)
When you lookat the video attached of Jerkface on his GWF basically two shotting that TR, id like to know the DR/Tenacity/HP of the TR and the fact that Jerk has every pot imaginable.
It's 45K Damage in a second.
Even at 10% Tenacity this should never happen, EVER, although the TR has Purified Black Ice gear (Purified Absorbtion proc) at the very least and "tank" spec (see other videos on channel).
Pots or not, Tenacity or not, it's a **** proc that is nigh undodgeable and it will most probably one-shot you. It has to go/be reduced to what other procs in the game are able to do, while taking into consideration that GWF Sentis are extremely tanky, so you cannot also give them lots of damage.
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nezraalMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
1. Fix perma stealth of TR - I think this is coming with mod 5 so Ill wait to post on this.
2. The postal CW damage - A LARGE part of this comes from Red Dragon Glyphs.
3. The HP recovery/leech and dodge from immortal HR. This is an easy fix. Feat should be changed to a single proc, no stacking, of say 10% of your HP over 6 seconds healed. Does NOT refresh.
4. 22k Damage on CAGI - Discussed above.
5. REMOVAL of damage on glyphs, Red/Black/Green etc ONLY provide the stat bonuses of +800 for 20 seconds (respective stats)
BULL's EYE. 100% Agreed ! You said it better than I did and right on the spot. AND THEY NEED TO TEST on high end Gears stacking different stats! This is the EXACT List Crush needs to look at instead of saying "EVERYTHING IS BALANCED, EVERYTHING IS FINE" in their imaginary PvP world. What's really really bad is, everyone has been talking about it, they took the feedback and did nothing = Garbage development team. Cryptic needs to offer this guy a job if they want to keep this game alive.
As for Sentinel they do need more damage (not the bug damage) and Destroyer need survival.
Even at 10% Tenacity this should never happen, EVER, although the TR has Purified Black Ice gear (Purified Absorbtion proc) at the very least and "tank" spec (see other videos on channel).
Pots or not, Tenacity or not, it's a **** proc that is nigh undodgeable and it will most probably one-shot you. It has to go/be reduced to what other procs in the game are able to do, while taking into consideration that GWF Sentis are extremely tanky, so you cannot also give them lots of damage.
Wait for the final cut. List 1-5 above everything needs to be re-approached. And I hope this time, they will pay attention to the feedback (which they never do) and important details (they never test).
Even at 10% Tenacity this should never happen, EVER, although the TR has Purified Black Ice gear (Purified Absorbtion proc) at the very least and "tank" spec (see other videos on channel).
Pots or not, Tenacity or not, it's a **** proc that is nigh undodgeable and it will most probably one-shot you. It has to go/be reduced to what other procs in the game are able to do, while taking into consideration that GWF Sentis are extremely tanky, so you cannot also give them lots of damage.
Dude, im telling you, there are alot of "things" added into this example causing MAJOR issues:
1) the feat IS OP, needs a nerf, I think 35% of power (down from 50%) is ideal.
2) Potions/consumables - this is HUGE! You can add SO much damage from consumables. HUGE! Dont underestimate this.
3) Tenacity:
- Why tenacity is such a big deal is this. Not only does another 10% tenacity create 10% less damage it also reduces crit by another 10%.
So if this person had little to no tenacity, it would be another 10+10% less, and THEN it would be another 30% reduction based on my suggestion to drop to 35% of power.
Then it would be another HUGE hit to damage with the removal of consumables.
Trust me, the above would bring this inline with what is appropriate.
Dude, im telling you, there are alot of "things" added into this example causing MAJOR issues:
1) the feat IS OP, needs a nerf, I think 35% of power (down from 50%) is ideal.
2) Potions/consumables - this is HUGE! You can add SO much damage from consumables. HUGE! Dont underestimate this.
3) Tenacity:
- Why tenacity is such a big deal is this. Not only does another 10% tenacity create 10% less damage it also reduces crit by another 10%.
So if this person had little to no tenacity, it would be another 10+10% less, and THEN it would be another 30% reduction based on my suggestion to drop to 35% of power.
Then it would be another HUGE hit to damage with the removal of consumables.
Trust me, the above would bring this inline with what is appropriate.
35% are you joking? Then it does 15-20k dmg instead of 20-25k - still laughable overpowered for a defense tree. Even with 25% it would be very viable its even aoe damage and almost everyone would be forced to youse this lame build. If you would be at least as squishy as destroyer than it might be balanced with 35%. Its not like you cant have ~50k hp with 8-9k power.
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nezraalMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
35% are you joking? Then it does 15-20k dmg instead of 20-25k - still laughable overpowered for a defense tree. Even with 25% it would be very viable its even aoe damage and almost everyone would be forced to youse this lame build. If you would be at least as squishy as destroyer than it might be balanced with 35%. Its not like you cant have ~50k hp with 8-9k power.
50k hp, 9k power with what gears, crit rate and arp?
15-20k dmg with what deflection, crit rate (attack) and tenacity, dr% (defense) without buffs?
how realistic are these figures?
You think they won't bring the damage to more acceptable levels? They will, but when they do I want to see the effects on TR (stealth), HR ( immortality hp leech / dodge), GF (never ending stamina) and CW (spell storm on red glyph) as well. I favor balancing GWF but other classes should be balanced also!
35% are you joking? Then it does 15-20k dmg instead of 20-25k - still laughable overpowered for a defense tree. Even with 25% it would be very viable its even aoe damage and almost everyone would be forced to youse this lame build. If you would be at least as squishy as destroyer than it might be balanced with 35%. Its not like you cant have ~50k hp with 8-9k power.
This is unrealistic. I just got onto PTR to test and with 6700 Power on a training dummy if BOTH crit was getting near 35-40k for TOTAL damage.
While that is alot, I also fully potted up. But consider 40k in PVP. They would be taking 40% LESS damage 20% from avg tenaciyt and 20% less from crit off tenacity.
So that means maybe BOTH intimidation procs TOTAL Crits for 24kish with a Perfect Vorpal. Thats with 0% DR or 0% deflect ETC. While that IS strong, nerfing this to 35% AND removing consumables (which was my suggestion) will bring this damage UNDER 20k TOTAL for both CRITS.
Whith 6700 power if they both hit, on a dummy I was reaching around 14-15k TOTAL damage. So again that would be 10k in PVP for BOTH procs. So on average with nerfing this to 35% itll be more than fair I think.
Dont forget the impact potions have in PVP as well and how many you can stack that add crit damage and power etc. Its pretty laughable.
I also would like to arguably see this moved to a T4 since its still really good.
After reading all the other posts, and all that comparisons with other classes ...
I still think that this damage output from Intimidation is simply a bug. The devs probably screwed up as usual, and gave it 150% damage based on Power stats, rather than just 50%. As to whether it should crit or not, I have no idea ....
This is unrealistic. I just got onto PTR to test and with 6700 Power on a training dummy if BOTH crit was getting near 35-40k for TOTAL damage.
While that is alot, I also fully potted up. But consider 40k in PVP. They would be taking 40% LESS damage 20% from avg tenaciyt and 20% less from crit off tenacity.
So that means maybe BOTH intimidation procs TOTAL Crits for 24kish with a Perfect Vorpal. Thats with 0% DR or 0% deflect ETC. While that IS strong, nerfing this to 35% AND removing consumables (which was my suggestion) will bring this damage UNDER 20k TOTAL for both CRITS.
Whith 6700 power if they both hit, on a dummy I was reaching around 14-15k TOTAL damage. So again that would be 10k in PVP for BOTH procs. So on average with nerfing this to 35% itll be more than fair I think.
Dont forget the impact potions have in PVP as well and how many you can stack that add crit damage and power etc. Its pretty laughable.
I also would like to arguably see this moved to a T4 since its still really good.
6.7k power isnt much I can have even more without any power gem. Test it with 9-9.5k. U can have this power + easily 45k hp if not 50k with full buff food of course.
After reading all the other posts, and all that comparisons with other classes ...
I still think that this damage output from Intimidation is simply a bug. The devs probably screwed up as usual, and gave it 150% damage based on Power stats, rather than just 50%. As to whether it should crit or not, I have no idea ....
Nope It's sadly working as intendet. I have around 60% extra dmg from mark alone then theres also strength attribute and I think power works ''2x'' with this so you get 50% of ur power as dmg + for example 30% extra dmg from you power stat but I'm not sure about that
Nope It's sadly working as intendet. I have around 60% extra dmg from mark alone then theres also strength attribute and I think power works ''2x'' with this so you get 50% of ur power as dmg + for example 30% extra dmg from you power stat but I'm not sure about that
I think you just found a bug there , it shouldn't get buffed by power because it already deals damage from it, it is like it deals 50% of your total power then gets an other 30% more damage from power and this is wrong , i think this should be reported and may fix the high damage problem without destroying the feat or the tree
I think you just found a bug there , it shouldn't get buffed by power because it already deals damage from it, it is like it deals 50% of your total power then gets an other 30% more damage from power and this is wrong , i think this should be reported and may fix the high damage problem without destroying the feat or the tree
I didn't say thats the case. I said it could be like that because the dmg is pretty high.
I cannot replicate your results independantly. With a character with no damage bonuses I am seeing the following values.
5000 Power - 3250 Damage (which is exactly right. 5000 power grants a 30% damage bonus, so 5000 *.5*1.3 = 3250)
Most likely you are seeing another damage bonus on your character you are not accounting for, but it appears to be working 100% as described. There is no error in the formula. If this proves to make the feat too powerful however I want to see that before making any drastic changes because this is a powerful tanking tool.
He confirms it is working as intended currently and it DOES and IS supposed to benefit from ALL damage buffs (including power).
6.7k power isnt much I can have even more without any power gem. Test it with 9-9.5k. U can have this power + easily 45k hp if not 50k with full buff food of course.
I know you can have 9k Power but in PVP its going to be VERY hard to have 50k HP 9k Power AND have decent Regen and or lifesteal + defensive stats. Or maybe if your talking about a fully potted/buffed GWF that has 4-5k HP from Pots/Buffs it MAY be possible MAY.
My entire point though was to show that 6700/9000 = 75% correct? So if it was nerfed to 35% of your power that means your 9k build is the same effectiveness of roughly my mid 6k Power build. That sounds fair to me. Especially since you have to sacrifice quite a bit of other stats to get that high of power. Most GWFs can easily run the 6k-7k range without losing too much which with a 30% nerf would be around the 5k range which isnt that OP TBH.
thats just my opinion, also they seriously need to remove consumables in PVP as that is a portion of the problem...
I think you just found a bug there , it shouldn't get buffed by power because it already deals damage from it, it is like it deals 50% of your total power then gets an other 30% more damage from power and this is wrong , i think this should be reported and may fix the high damage problem without destroying the feat or the tree
Someone quoted a private message from gmc a few days ago asking about that and he said that it was intended to work like that. However, if wasn't posted on the forums by gmc so take it for what its worth.
When you lookat the video attached of Jerkface on his GWF basically two shotting that TR, id like to know the DR/Tenacity/HP of the TR and the fact that Jerk has every pot imaginable.
Well, everyone can pot up. In addition, he doesn't have the artefact weapon which would give another damage bonus or a lot of boons.
I've also seen higher crits than in that video on more geared players.
Comments
I agree, but lets be honest here its just like any other module.
Mod 2 we had 99% of good Sents geared exactly the same, using the same build/skills etc.
mod 3 most Destroyers were exactly the same, it also took relatively zero skill to win.
Now module 4 offers a variation of a build. There seem to be multiple versions available and multiple ways to gear your character. Thats why I dont want it removed, it should be a viable PVP option. Its unique and creative and uses different skills/setup than anything before.
I mean what you described above is the same for the "standard" builds from previous mods. This actually requires SOME "tradeoff" because you need to stack high power at the cost of other stats. So its not "clear cut" what is the best.
Fast animation timer? Yes. But long cooldowns as well.
Takes less skill? Perhaps, depends though, whats hard about FLS->Takedown? not to mention your stunned for 4+ seconds. With this its only the FLS stun and then the other two.
Personally I like the option alot. I think it needs to stay viable as ONE option. Ive seen Dest builds that are ok as well as other Sent builds.
It IS OP currently, and needs to be toned back some, but not removed. Otherwise they can just remove the feat and give the power actual DAMAGE and it would be the same. Atleast this takes some interesting gearing to use effectively.
Actually, not really. I produced these numbers without changing anything in my setup or gear. Just some other feat choices, that cost me some stamina gain. Ofc you could sacrifice some stats to get even more dmg, but that would have even produced bigger numbers.
The main problem with the feat is that it is connected to two aoe powers. Pvp is not about 1vs1 only. There should no aoe powers which can proc 20k+ dmg passively. Encounter powers btw. Also, the cds of daring and come n get it maybe high, but so are the cds of IBS and FLS.
Also keep in mind that daring shout builds determination, makes you tankier and is an AOE mark, which profits also ur teamates.
Come n get it has a minor stun to its base effect. Its not long but still noticeable.
What I want to say is: sentinel has an encounter power that does 10k-30k AOE!!! Dmg, fast animation, buffs ur tankiness, builds determination, marks all targets which gives ur teamates also some benefits.
Its just to much.
Heck, my IBS does less dmg average than this feat proc.
A more practical rotation would be CAGI > FLS > IBS
A lot of destro run with BF with CD in TD which actually gives more damage than FLS > TD > IBS
So unless there is some bug doing postal damage, (I am sure they will double check) - the damage posted (if it works as intended) is fine. There is no 20k & 30k damage. GWF is barely a problem, see what HR can do with health leech recovery & dodge, TR doing damage with perma stealth, CW and storm spell - no comparison.
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The only thing I would suggest is that the feat DOES need to get toned down. IBS can only hit hard on targets with lower HP, versus this feat can outdamage IBS.
So does it need a nerf? Yes. But not REMOVED or not reduced to NOTHING.
Like I said before, I think 50% of power is probably too much, so maybe 35% seems more reasonable. Thats a 30% nerf to damage.
If we're talking about nerfing this new feature, let's talk about buffing GWF base damage or something.
Currently, it's impossible to keep threat on a sentinel GWF unless you put glass cannon gears. With 6k power I already struggle with that and I have weapon master slotted and use CAGI and DS whenever possible, and it's still not enough to make the mob turn in some parties. Sure, I could get higher on power but then I'd have to give up on using a defensive set and be a squishy pseudo-tank.
Thus, if Intimidation is going to be nerfed hard then sentinel will be back to being unplayable. That's a fact.
You don't need a tank in any PvE instance (sadly). PvE GWFs are actually DPS machines. You don't need to keep threat on anything, it's hardly important in a game where everything can be kited and it's damage outhealed with LS.
Pretty much, you're are trying to keep a gamebreaking for PvP feature just so you can play in a way that few if any other GWFs do, in PvE, where there's about no challenge, and no people being one shot.
I usually agree with many of your ideas. I have respect for what you say, but I disagree with you here. Each person has their own opinion, and this is mine. Assuming the skills work properly, just as Crush tested:
1. IBS for destroyer is a much stronger hit. Reasons: 1/1 Destroyer's purpose + 5/5 Executioner for Destro Build.
So comparing IBS for Sentinel and Destroyer is like comparing apples & oranges. If IBS on sentinel is hitting lower then the build tree is suited for this purpose and players need to adapt. As a side bonus with Executioner Sure Strikes (30%) also benefit. So looking at it from one angle and comparing Skill X & Skill Y isn't the right approach. There is more to it.
2. All GWF will need at least one stun, agreed?
Compare FLS with 5/5 Relentless, 50% CD on takedown! From here you can go battle fury or go with another stun (FLS). So much stuns or chasing power here you can go additional (buffed)sure strike(s)! For sentinel FLS is the best bet and hardly scale with the extra strikes destroyers can land because of extra stun or extra stamina.
3. Cagi / DS is actually a higher risk attack on single targets: here is why.
TD > miss > faster CD on miss + CD from Relentless, then execute IBS (much lower risk of not failing)
Cagi / DS miss > high CD sit & wait, your sure strike(s) are much weaker - you are just a walking penguin
So it's not only high cd. it's also higher risk. The rewards should also be higher since it can be dodged & deflected without a proper stun. Don't let the faster animation time fool you!
4. AOE attack ? What AOE? Think outside the box as a CW / HR / SW
If HR, CW and SW are standing in one spot, clustered without moving they should be punished!
Good pre-made know how to split positions while holding nodes. If ranged classes think it's okay to stand close to GF or GWF dealing damage they need to re-evaluate their game play. Strife, back pedal, re-position do what you need to. If I am a CW / HR / SW and clustered in spot with another ranged class, allowing myself to take AOE damage from a Melee with another range class, then there is something wrong with this game play and I should be punished! Additionally don't forget the dodges , cc and health each each of these classes can do to survive. Range classes also need to learn to split to proper positions and play smarter out-ranging the AOE, after all this is a class that suppose to have "intelligence".
As a TR I should play solo with stealth and harass the enemy flag node (1 or 3). What's left? GF and the shield ?
The way I look at it:
Destroyer build 1: TD (with 50% CD) + IBS + FLS + Stronger Sure Strike(s)
Destroyer build 2: TD (with 50% CD) + IBS + BF + Stronger Sure Strike(s)
I am assuming both builds above have taken 5/5 in Executioner Style 5/5 Relentless and 1/1 Purpose
Sentinel build with Power , Arp: 2 sec stun in FULL rotation, High CD + 1/2 Burst Damage but high risk compensated by defense
Destroyer build 1 : Strongest burst with semi-stun lock
Destroyer build 2 : Consistent damage with excellent escape & chase mechanism for hit & run
Sentinel build : AOE damage , weaker sure strike(s), lacks sufficient CC attack but compensated with defense
For the reasons posted above, I think we need to look at the broader picture and bring other skills and feats to the picture - I believe the feat, as it is, is perfectly viable and balanced! Besides, GWF do need a little loving. Don't just compare Destro GWF vs Sentinel GWF. It doesn't take a miracle to realize that in team vs team game play GWF are behind CW, HR, TR, GF and SW on same GS, 18k+ (other classes scale better).
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fOnbFbDI7c
Lol well that explains why the gwfs thinks it's balanced. New mod new broken skill for them.
After the GWF feat get a "fix" can someone also RE-EXAMINE the video up to the 6 sec mark where the HR has 90% hp and GWF sentinel has 65% hp left and get a "fix" for HR too? because otherwise, at this rate the poor GWF will have 0% hp and the hr will have 80% hp left in face tanking (i.e. range vs melee)!
So for better balance, please don't just "1" fix - make 5, they are:
1. Fix perma stealth of TR
2. The postal CW CC & damage
3. The HP recovery/leech, piercing and dodge from immortal HR
4. 22k Damage on CAGI
5. Re-examine the use of glyphs
Please have them tested on your 20k GS toons as balance should come with end gear. Thank you!
p.s. Also fix the terrible pvp match making system when someone wrote half asleep, to put a 19k GS and 4x8k pugs in the same team.
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We can have different opinions thats fine. Im not entirely sure what your position is, but based on previous posts it seems your in favor of leaving it as is?
I think thats where the issue lies though. I agree with nearly everything you said however I dont know if you have tested this at "breaking" capacity. I know alot of GWFs who are totally gearing out for Power Stacking, while maintaining a desired "defensive" stat allocation and are able to crit in pvp matches for 15k-20k.
Now if it were up to me, there would be alot of GWF changes that need to happen, but its not. I think one of the most important things for this specific feat, is leaving it in the game, but it does need to be toned back a little because the fact that you can hit back to back hits off a feat that can crit for 20k, seems a bit much to me - when ONE GWF can wipe an entire team with his AOE.
Again, dont get me wrong, I LOVE that this is a viable option. However its TOO strong currently, atleast for a tier 3 feat.
Again, Ive been testing the numbers ALOT, I keep coming back to the 35% Power (down from 50%) range. Initially I said 30% but that may be too harsh considering a LARGE reason why players are able to deal the "amazing" damage people are "claiming" is because of low DR, low tenacity and ALOT of pots.
When you lookat the video attached of Jerkface on his GWF basically two shotting that TR, id like to know the DR/Tenacity/HP of the TR and the fact that Jerk has every pot imaginable.
What NEEDs to also happen is consumables disabled in PVP because it causes a MASSIVE skew in numbers. remove those, drop the feat down to about 35% of power from 50% and I think this will be ONE viable OPTION and not THE option.
BTW that video is of a TR not HR (type-error)
For your list:
1. Fix perma stealth of TR - I think this is coming with mod 5 so Ill wait to post on this.
2. The postal CW damage - A LARGE part of this comes from Red Dragon Glyphs.
3. The HP recovery/leech and dodge from immortal HR. This is an easy fix. Feat should be changed to a single proc, no stacking, of say 10% of your HP over 6 seconds healed. Does NOT refresh.
4. 22k Damage on CAGI - Discussed above.
5. REMOVAL of damage on glyphs, Red/Black/Green etc ONLY provide the stat bonuses of +800 for 20 seconds (respective stats)
It's 45K Damage in a second.
Even at 10% Tenacity this should never happen, EVER, although the TR has Purified Black Ice gear (Purified Absorbtion proc) at the very least and "tank" spec (see other videos on channel).
Pots or not, Tenacity or not, it's a **** proc that is nigh undodgeable and it will most probably one-shot you. It has to go/be reduced to what other procs in the game are able to do, while taking into consideration that GWF Sentis are extremely tanky, so you cannot also give them lots of damage.
BULL's EYE. 100% Agreed ! You said it better than I did and right on the spot. AND THEY NEED TO TEST on high end Gears stacking different stats! This is the EXACT List Crush needs to look at instead of saying "EVERYTHING IS BALANCED, EVERYTHING IS FINE" in their imaginary PvP world. What's really really bad is, everyone has been talking about it, they took the feedback and did nothing = Garbage development team. Cryptic needs to offer this guy a job if they want to keep this game alive.
As for Sentinel they do need more damage (not the bug damage) and Destroyer need survival.
Wait for the final cut. List 1-5 above everything needs to be re-approached. And I hope this time, they will pay attention to the feedback (which they never do) and important details (they never test).
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Dude, im telling you, there are alot of "things" added into this example causing MAJOR issues:
1) the feat IS OP, needs a nerf, I think 35% of power (down from 50%) is ideal.
2) Potions/consumables - this is HUGE! You can add SO much damage from consumables. HUGE! Dont underestimate this.
3) Tenacity:
- Why tenacity is such a big deal is this. Not only does another 10% tenacity create 10% less damage it also reduces crit by another 10%.
So if this person had little to no tenacity, it would be another 10+10% less, and THEN it would be another 30% reduction based on my suggestion to drop to 35% of power.
Then it would be another HUGE hit to damage with the removal of consumables.
Trust me, the above would bring this inline with what is appropriate.
35% are you joking? Then it does 15-20k dmg instead of 20-25k - still laughable overpowered for a defense tree. Even with 25% it would be very viable its even aoe damage and almost everyone would be forced to youse this lame build. If you would be at least as squishy as destroyer than it might be balanced with 35%. Its not like you cant have ~50k hp with 8-9k power.
50k hp, 9k power with what gears, crit rate and arp?
15-20k dmg with what deflection, crit rate (attack) and tenacity, dr% (defense) without buffs?
how realistic are these figures?
You think they won't bring the damage to more acceptable levels? They will, but when they do I want to see the effects on TR (stealth), HR ( immortality hp leech / dodge), GF (never ending stamina) and CW (spell storm on red glyph) as well. I favor balancing GWF but other classes should be balanced also!
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This is unrealistic. I just got onto PTR to test and with 6700 Power on a training dummy if BOTH crit was getting near 35-40k for TOTAL damage.
While that is alot, I also fully potted up. But consider 40k in PVP. They would be taking 40% LESS damage 20% from avg tenaciyt and 20% less from crit off tenacity.
So that means maybe BOTH intimidation procs TOTAL Crits for 24kish with a Perfect Vorpal. Thats with 0% DR or 0% deflect ETC. While that IS strong, nerfing this to 35% AND removing consumables (which was my suggestion) will bring this damage UNDER 20k TOTAL for both CRITS.
Whith 6700 power if they both hit, on a dummy I was reaching around 14-15k TOTAL damage. So again that would be 10k in PVP for BOTH procs. So on average with nerfing this to 35% itll be more than fair I think.
Dont forget the impact potions have in PVP as well and how many you can stack that add crit damage and power etc. Its pretty laughable.
I also would like to arguably see this moved to a T4 since its still really good.
I still think that this damage output from Intimidation is simply a bug. The devs probably screwed up as usual, and gave it 150% damage based on Power stats, rather than just 50%. As to whether it should crit or not, I have no idea ....
6.7k power isnt much I can have even more without any power gem. Test it with 9-9.5k. U can have this power + easily 45k hp if not 50k with full buff food of course.
Nope It's sadly working as intendet. I have around 60% extra dmg from mark alone then theres also strength attribute and I think power works ''2x'' with this so you get 50% of ur power as dmg + for example 30% extra dmg from you power stat but I'm not sure about that
I think you just found a bug there , it shouldn't get buffed by power because it already deals damage from it, it is like it deals 50% of your total power then gets an other 30% more damage from power and this is wrong , i think this should be reported and may fix the high damage problem without destroying the feat or the tree
I didn't say thats the case. I said it could be like that because the dmg is pretty high.
He confirms it is working as intended currently and it DOES and IS supposed to benefit from ALL damage buffs (including power).
I know you can have 9k Power but in PVP its going to be VERY hard to have 50k HP 9k Power AND have decent Regen and or lifesteal + defensive stats. Or maybe if your talking about a fully potted/buffed GWF that has 4-5k HP from Pots/Buffs it MAY be possible MAY.
My entire point though was to show that 6700/9000 = 75% correct? So if it was nerfed to 35% of your power that means your 9k build is the same effectiveness of roughly my mid 6k Power build. That sounds fair to me. Especially since you have to sacrifice quite a bit of other stats to get that high of power. Most GWFs can easily run the 6k-7k range without losing too much which with a 30% nerf would be around the 5k range which isnt that OP TBH.
thats just my opinion, also they seriously need to remove consumables in PVP as that is a portion of the problem...
Someone quoted a private message from gmc a few days ago asking about that and he said that it was intended to work like that. However, if wasn't posted on the forums by gmc so take it for what its worth.
Well, everyone can pot up. In addition, he doesn't have the artefact weapon which would give another damage bonus or a lot of boons.
I've also seen higher crits than in that video on more geared players.