A word about fighting Dragons

doriangreigh

We all know pug groups are difficult to say the least in a dungeon, disorganized messes running around like chickens with their heads cut off.

Now we have Heroic Encounters vs. Dragons, which seems to have this effect:

"oh no the dragon looked at me I should run on the opposite side of it so it can tail slap everyone in the area who isn't me" (shortly thereafter several if not all other participants are flying threw the air as the dragon tail slap sweeps across the field).

Are there always so many people in an MMO that actually find it fun to sabotage encounters, dungeons, and the like wasting peoples time and effort?

I have seen GWF's who should be able to take a hit or two from the dragon run in wide arcs spinning the dragon in circles.

I have seen GFs literally stab move stab move stab move stab move ... again perpetually spinning the dragon in circles.

At the risk to degrading in a flame style rant, you people that do this you are either incompetent players who have no clue how to play with a team, total idiots that think spinning the dragon somehow makes you harder to hit. Or you are intentionally trying to get people killed as that tail slap attack hits harder than the frontal claw/bite attack.

There is no reason a GF can't stand his ground and only move sideways a bit to get out of the breath attack.

Just to drive my point home at how poorly most people fight the dragon, I can TANK the dragon on my level 22 Warlock and NOT spin him in circles, in fact I can almost hold him in place as long as some ranger or gwf or gf doesn't come along to mess it up.

I repeat my level 22 warlock and tank a dragon better than most of you level 60 players out there spinning the stupid thing in circles. To be shown up by a 22 warlock is a testament to how poorly you have learned to play your character and role.

There is NO reason that the dragon should be laying lines of breath attack in 90 degree angles constantly, if you are doing your job correctly the lines should be a V shape.

Not to mention in smaller groups this spinning tactic that the inept masses are using cause players to get slapped into spawned mobs around the map unintentionally creating further havok.

There is a way to fight these dragons without running around like scared little girls sprinting all over the screen.

oicidraz

You can Tank in your lvl 22 because those Dragons are scaled to lvl (which kills the feel of progression IMO).

I won't argue with you that there are a lot of stupid ppl in this game, but maybe what are you seeing is that they try to make u get Combat Advantage... if they are doing that all the time then it's because they are low geared.

cryptfoundation

Lol... One time their was a dragon who nobody wanted to kill because there wasn't 10 people so instead they all Afked. Wanna know what I did? I got the dragon to target me and then I put my character on to the Afkers and killed them all... Then I spent the remainder of dragon time trying to kill this dude who wasn't afk, it was a fun chase.

iambecks1

Had enough of GF's who walk in a circle causing the dragon to twirl around causing devastation to everything behind it .

Also there are the moronic asshats that have no interest in killing the Dragon who think it is amusing to pull all the random mobs from around the HE arena into the middle where everybody normal is trying to kill the Dragon , a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> Cleric did this to me in Ebon downs but didn't notice I was standing right at the edge of a pool of acid the Dragon had puked out so he died when he ran onto it while pulling mobs to me then had the nerve to whisper me abuse because I ignored his pleas for a rez lmfao.

doriangreigh

iambecks1 wrote: »

Had enough of GF's who walk in a circle causing the dragon to twirl around causing devastation to everything behind it and now the best ones are the moronic asshats who think it is amusing to pull all the random mobs from around the HE arena into the middle where everybody normal is trying to kill the Dragon , a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> Cleric did this to me in Ebon downs but didn't notice I was standing right at the edge of a pool of acid the Dragon had puked out so he died when he ran onto it while pulling mobs to me then had the nerve to whisper me abuse because I ignored his pleas for a rez lmfao.

I don't rez anyone who spins the dragon in circles. I will help people doing what they should be doing, but these dragons are just showing how uncooperative people are, for an MMO there are far too many unhelpful sabotaging people that need to go back to playing minecraft.

doriangreigh

oicidraz wrote: »

You can Tank in your lvl 22 because those Dragons are scaled to lvl (which kills the feel of progression IMO).

I won't argue with you that there are a lot of stupid ppl in this game, but maybe what are you seeing is that they try to make u get Combat Advantage... if they are doing that all the time then it's because they are low geared.

It may scale to level but still a Tank fighting it should be able to hold the dragon still better than me and i'm doing it better than 90% of the people out there.

I will concede tot he notion that people are trying to get combat advantage but you can get that without being completely opposite and if you are the one with agro then you have the responsibility of either stop moving or stop attacking if you don't want the aggro.

Too many HR out there with this high DPS who can't handle the mobs. Too many GF out there that are giddy with being able to hit hard not keeping aggro or the ones that do being complete jackasses and spinning the dragon on purpose.

I'm just flat out amazed at the sheer number of people that just aren't helpful that play a game that for all intents and purposes is CO-OP with other people.

elusiveonen7

If only the dragon breaths were the only damaging attack. Doing a v shape just means hes stacking circles under you. He has to turn somewhat. I intend to tank one or two this afternoon, so ill be sure to see if I can keep it completely still.

doriangreigh

elusiveonen7 wrote: »

If only the dragon breaths were the only damaging attack. Doing a v shape just means hes stacking circles under you. He has to turn somewhat. I intend to tank one or two this afternoon, so ill be sure to see if I can keep it completely still.

There is no getting around side stepping, I have to do it, as does everyone who is melee. However people are moving in such wide arcs its crazy. I'm not saying it doesn't move at all but people are spinning it around literally like a top which is NOT helpful and others are running around the field with the dragon following them also NOT helpful.

There are times big pools of acid show up but they do dissipate. Instead of moving in gigantic circles its helpful to move a little or if you move a lot then move back the other direction so people can still attack the flanks instead of getting tail slapped by the morons that spin the dragon around 180 degrees.

twilightwatchman

I'm taking an SW, an HR, and a CW through the campaign at the moment - so all ranged toons. I move the minimum necessary to avoid the red zones but that's more to maximise time spent DPSing rather than anything else. Can't say I've noticed that much Dragon spinning to be honest.

Some of those attacks will very nearly one-shot even reasonably well-geared toons so no surprise if folk are a little over-enthusiastic in avoiding them.

doriangreigh

magenubbie wrote: »

Just a shot in the dark here, but maybe people are trying to defend themselves? Even the Neverdeath dragon can 1skill people or get pretty close to it. I've had it happen on my baby CW. 13k GS and I was very glad it has a SF a few times. We're not all in BiS and 50k HP, you know.


Yes there is. But as above, it would be nice if you take into consideration not everyone has your skill. People have to learn how to fight the dragon. It doesn't come naturally to all of us.

I understand you being frustrated by "lesser skilled" players, but I ask you to consider you were once like them too. Cut them some slack. If it really bothers you that much, discuss a strategy with the people waiting 5min before the dragon shows up.

Not really intending to beat everyone who plays over the head. But a lot of this is not skill its people thinking its funny to annoy others, seriously a GF that swings once, move swings once move, swings once move, swings once move, in a circle occasionally doing enforced threat so that he keeps aggro cause he can't with what he is doing and spins the dragon in a circle.

Unskilled people are those playing high DPS that pull out all the stops get aggro then spend several minutes running around until they finally go down or run far enough away to dump aggro on someone else. That is more manageable since you can chase the dragon and not really suffer much other than pulling extra adds.

The people spinning the dragon in place in a circle turn the dragon so much you run out of dodge/sprint trying to stay OUT of tail slap range.

I should be more constructive in saying that if you are doing this then you are using poor tactics and need to look at modifying your style, instead of being somewhat belligerent, but i'm seriously frustrated at fighting hundreds of dragons and 80% are me repeatedly asking people to stop spinning the dragon in circles or jsut me getting tail slapped constantly cause I can't dodge move and attack with the speed people turn the dragon.

Sure there are unskilled players, to them I say read and assimilate and learn and modify. The rest nothing can be done about other than me vent my frustrations and hope that people will take note of who is doing it and when they die let them stay on the ground and think about why they are now getting an injury because they are being a *******.

doriangreigh

twilightwatchman wrote: »

I'm taking an SW, an HR, and a CW through the campaign at the moment - so all ranged toons. I move the minimum necessary to avoid the red zones but that's more to maximise time spent DPSing rather than anything else. Can't say I've noticed that much Dragon spinning to be honest.

Some of those attacks will very nearly one-shot even reasonably well-geared toons so no surprise if folk are a little over-enthusiastic in avoiding them.

Its most prominent in the Neverdeath fights. The pools of gas or whatever there are deadly but dissipate so move to avoid when it dissipates move back, move to the side of the breath weapon attack and when its go move back.

The mechanic isn't perfect but 80% of the time you should be able to side step one side or another keeping the dragon facing same general area, it is NOT necessary to spin the dragon in a complete circle.

I have fought dragons in all the other locations numerous times and it is NOT spun around nearly as much or as bad as it is in Neverdeath.

The Whispering Cavern dragon nearly doesn't move at all.

I'll say again my post is to those that move around in huge arcs or in 180+ degree turns even 90 is a bit much for the Neverdeath fight.

Not saying ever dragon I encountered is handled that way but it happens a lot.

demonkyuubi

as a rogue, i sometimes have the aggro on me for some reason even though i really just spam flurry and a few dazing strikes. flurry automatically makes me circle the dragon and he responds by circling around for me. if i kill anyone from that, sorry but i can't help it.

doriangreigh

starbigamo wrote: »

i walk in circles with my GF cause otherwise i die, seems fair?

how about back and forth? you have sprint, instead of a full circle just move back where you came from? seems to work for me and others and it keeps the dragons tail away from people who are on the sides. What is with you people and wanting to walk total circles.

there are legitimate reasons to move obviously but again i'm seeing a lot of people moving in circles when they don't even have to move they just do it ... a GWF should be able to get hit once or twice even popping unstobble, just about everyone will die from standing in dragon breath so yeah move out of that, but move to the side not on the freaking tail end of the dragon causing it to spin.

I have seen GWF sprinting around the dragon for no other reason than to run circles, no idea why no justification and of course theyve managed to do enough damage to get the dragons attention so the dragon follows ....

If your GWF is dying from frontal assault then modify your own tactic but frankly your skill is to take damage and pop unstoppable, something is wrong if you can't take a couple of hits from dragon melee, either you aren't geared properly (hopefully not one of those people at level 60 with 0 artifacts and running around in green/blue gear and starting shirt and pants).

doriangreigh

demonkyuubi wrote: »

as a rogue, i sometimes have the aggro on me for some reason even though i really just spam flurry and a few dazing strikes. flurry automatically makes me circle the dragon and he responds by circling around for me. if i kill anyone from that, sorry but i can't help it.

i'm not sure i know what you are talking about, but mainly my experience is from the GWF, GF and HR typically. Not sure i've seen TR being the one doing that. HR just steal aggro cause it can dps in high burst and then they run all over the place cause they can't take a hit. Which makes me want to say "if you cant take a hit then don't get aggro and manage your dps better", hard to do but possible but in this game all people want to do is burst and then wonder why they are laying on the ground when they get hit by something they just dealt a ton of damage to.

pitshade

TR damage isn't burst. That was taken away a long time ago. But with 10 stacks of bleed from DF, the class can still put out some good sustained damage on a boss. But what's happening is that because DF pulls you in so close that when the dragon tries to turn and attack, it's head is actually pushing you around in a circle. Silly thing doesn't know enough to just back up.

Short of getting a tank or someone else who just overgears you to grab aggro, about the only thing that can be done is to try and stay in stealth as much as you can. Also try and wait a few seconds to let other people start to attack first and establish threat.

rollingonit

I dont even notice any of this on any of characters heh. Suppose it irks some people though.

If I see red I move. Or I get blown up.

daggon87

As of now, I've seen 3 HE dragons, and none of them requires any strategy or serious tanking.

Those HE are not about teamplay, they are about competition in 3 domains : inflicting damage, absorbing damage and healing. The melee characters moving the dragon around and causing collateral damage are only helping others compete for the absorbing damage and healing matches ...

So what's the problem ?

qutsemnie

doriangreigh wrote: »

We all know pug groups are difficult to say the least in a dungeon, disorganized messes running around like chickens with their heads cut off.

Now we have Heroic Encounters vs. Dragons, which seems to have this effect:

"oh no the dragon looked at me I should run on the opposite side of it so it can tail slap everyone in the area who isn't me" (shortly thereafter several if not all other participants are flying threw the air as the dragon tail slap sweeps across the field).

Are there always so many people in an MMO that actually find it fun to sabotage encounters, dungeons, and the like wasting peoples time and effort?

I have seen GWF's who should be able to take a hit or two from the dragon run in wide arcs spinning the dragon in circles.

I have seen GFs literally stab move stab move stab move stab move ... again perpetually spinning the dragon in circles.

At the risk to degrading in a flame style rant, you people that do this you are either incompetent players who have no clue how to play with a team, total idiots that think spinning the dragon somehow makes you harder to hit. Or you are intentionally trying to get people killed as that tail slap attack hits harder than the frontal claw/bite attack.

There is no reason a GF can't stand his ground and only move sideways a bit to get out of the breath attack.

Just to drive my point home at how poorly most people fight the dragon, I can TANK the dragon on my level 22 Warlock and NOT spin him in circles, in fact I can almost hold him in place as long as some ranger or gwf or gf doesn't come along to mess it up.

I repeat my level 22 warlock and tank a dragon better than most of you level 60 players out there spinning the stupid thing in circles. To be shown up by a 22 warlock is a testament to how poorly you have learned to play your character and role.

There is NO reason that the dragon should be laying lines of breath attack in 90 degree angles constantly, if you are doing your job correctly the lines should be a V shape.

Not to mention in smaller groups this spinning tactic that the inept masses are using cause players to get slapped into spawned mobs around the map unintentionally creating further havok.

There is a way to fight these dragons without running around like scared little girls sprinting all over the screen.

I blame devs. You overlooked 3 facts:
1) All but one GF at-will moves them forward in a line. When exactly facing the center of the mob you are fighting moves you into it, but if your facing gets screwed up (say by side stepping a red circle) then you begin going at angle to the mob while you are at-willing and you get a choice: interupt your at-wills to fix your facing or continue thrusting forward which inevitably moves you around the mob.

2) Devs made it about score on dragons. I routinely get great success on my GF even in hordes, but not by making the mob pretty. Remember when you were reading (1) and thinking, ehh just interrupt your at-will. First, loss of dps and threat immediately, second, that interrupts the 3 attack at-will cycle on the non-shield at-wills. I fix my facing at the end of it, and thrust forward for the whole cycle, which moves you quite a bit!

3) We arn't going to fail, and any "high skill" dps can dodge red circles even if they appear randomly, so forgive my lack of tears.

All three things were designed by devs, ergo, I blame devs.


Anyway, continue blasting off with your at-wills that don't move you into the mob with every attack, thinking man its easy holding still.

That said, do I try to hold it still. Yes, because a GF shouldn't actually dodge the red stuff on those dragons, they should shield and reflect 15% of the damage, but every few dragons holding my at-wills results in me walking right around the side of the dragon. Could I stop? Sure, but I have no incentive....

arliekkos

Not to mention the dragon moves to center the breath weapon which in turn forcibly moves the person tanking. So sorry you can't simply stand in one area and mash buttons which is what the OP's major complaint seems to be. Only time I see the dragons whipping all over? DPSers that go ape nuts on it and then cry about the mob(s) beating on them.

rashylewizz

I don't know why instead of implementing endgame PVE content, Cryptic decided to use their time into making these heroic encounters that have no substance/strategy and will not keep players around

beckylunatic

demonkyuubi wrote: »

as a rogue, i sometimes have the aggro on me for some reason even though i really just spam flurry and a few dazing strikes. flurry automatically makes me circle the dragon and he responds by circling around for me. if i kill anyone from that, sorry but i can't help it.

Yeah, TR attacks tend to make you move around big hitboxes in unintended ways.

Also, my game performance since Mod 4 is terrible, so I end up places where I didn't mean to be. I'm trying to get some campaign done on some characters in spite of the constant crashes and server not responding errors. If I'm hoping to get in one measly dragon kill and get rubberbanded through two packs of adds and then die or disconnect, I am sorry. I wasn't especially trying to troll your encounter.

rickcase276

Yes, I find the same thing on my GF, that the breath weapon of the dragons always move me somewhat off to the side, and to avoid walking through the acid/ etc I have to move towards the side of the dragons. But yes staying in the red is not too hard for a GF, block is our friend. I have only gotten 1 great success so far on my GF and 2 or 3 on my DC. DC just has to reposition to better angles to drop astral shield to me, that is a DCs most effective spell in it, that and divine glow.

hamletswords

Having someone on the other side is a good thing actually because it gives combat advantage to everyone.

epclipseingmoon

Ahh yes its disrespectfal if your attacking its sides and it decides to target you, you should just sit there and die.
Melee Classes should not be useing dps moves unless you want to sit in front of dragon and not dodge its breath.

ROFL so really what the op is saying is the ranged classes should get great sucess without doing anything but sitting and shooting,spamming encounters and melee people should not get that unless they are a gwf. because trs and hrs have to use attacks that shift you around the dragon to get good bust damage.

veshorok

ouch..spinning dragon and his slapping tail really bother you that much?
i participated in 50+ dragon fights both with melee and ranged classes. in 90% of tries i got great success (think my toons a bit overgeared for this type of HE). and i have to say that experienced all described nightmares but hey i take it as a part of dragon fight! or is it more fun for you to bring down a powerful creature for literally 7 seconds? if i want tic-tac entertainment i bring my gf-dc-3xdps guild party and roll whatever strategy we want
hope next fights will bring you more satisfaction! cheers

pilipino93

doriangreigh wrote: »

"oh no the dragon looked at me I should run on the opposite side of it so it can tail slap everyone in the area who isn't me" (shortly thereafter several if not all other participants are flying threw the air as the dragon tail slap sweeps across the field).

omg this was the funniest thing I've heard all day hahaha, was llaughing for a good minute straight xDD. I've yet to see people spinning dragons around in circles yet, mostly because there are so many people I can barely tellwhat's going on. But will definitely keep my eye for that, either idiots or trolls I guess xD

hamletswords

pilipino93 wrote: »

omg this was the funniest thing I've heard all day hahaha, was llaughing for a good minute straight xDD. I've yet to see people spinning dragons around in circles yet, mostly because there are so many people I can barely tellwhat's going on. But will definitely keep my eye for that, either idiots or trolls I guess xD

Or... people that want to give combat advantage to everyone?

daggon87

hamletswords wrote: »

Having someone on the other side is a good thing actually because it gives combat advantage to everyone.

Mark now gives combat advantage. No need for that anymore (yes, I think it's a loss too).

hamletswords

daggon87 wrote: »

Mark now gives combat advantage. No need for that anymore (yes, I think it's a loss too).

Does it give it to everyone or just people in the party? Because I only seem to really notice having Combat Advantage on the dragon when someone is on the other side of it.

query523

A general note from someone who has tanked a bazillion dragons. Because the shift key is on the left most people automatically dodge to the left. So once you establish aggro on the thing always move right. That way you don't draw the breath weapon into the people trying to avoid it. This is a simple, easy proceedure that will work in most PUGs without even having to communicate what you are doing.

pandapaul

Blame the people that cry on the forums if you are annoyed with GWFs spinning dragons
I play a 20k GWF.. 3k defense.. If I try and tank a dragon I will still get 1 shot by it if I don't move so it's not a sabotage it's what has to be done to survive

Secondly with the new marks.. There might be several gfs and gwfs marking..and that will cause the dragon to spin as well