The extra damage granted by the mark doesn't affect the overall dmg that much, first you have to apply it: Daring shout, means an defensive encounter without dmg by itself, if you use threatening rush means you won't use either sure strike (faster dmg against single target) or wicked strike (AoE dmg) and after an IBS killing blow if you are clearing trash most mobs are already close to die as well, so the feat will be good against bosses without adds like fulminorax, valindra or lostmauth in the new dungeon. Now in PvP, if you choose to be Destroyer, yes you will hit harder but you will also die faster due to the lack of DR, you have to use TR which is limited now so you either use it to charge your opponent and get closer to him or save the charges in order to apply the extra damage whenever is possible. Don't forget that we, destroyers, were using the first two tiers in Instigator for a bit more of dps, we will lose SotS (5% dmg) in the first tier for a feat in the sentinel tree that doesn't help in DPS (self-healing or deflect). In summary, it's not a boost of 35% more dmg that we will see in the ACT, that's for sure, it's going to be very situational.
This would be true but with unstoppable going to 30% DR most Destroyers will be at or very close to DR cap. You can still get high DR on destroyer. Plus sprint has 30% added on. I just don't get all the new changes.
- bring prone back to takedown. Remove CC immunity on sprint give it 100% CC resistance (basically would REDUCE a control power used in sprint at reduced damage as well). You can keep this mark damage stuff. Roar SHOULD "daze" for 1 second now IMO. Reduce the % chance to gain a destroyer stack to 10% (down from 25%). Move Powerful Challenge to T3 in the Sent Tree. NOW you have balance....
Overall Effect: GWFs LOSE CC immunity to sprint but have SLIGHTLY more "melee control options" - Roar still decent with a daze effect, FLS stuns, Takedown prones: are all options. Mark is an increase in damage (8% to 20% now), Destoryer (T4 feat) reduction is a decrease in PVP damage - wont effect PVE much. Powerful challenge wont be available to Destroyer (being a T3 Sent ability).
IMO i don't think this is good balance. Adding prone back make it so that every 6 seconds GWF have a chance to prone and then land one of the hardest hitting encounters in the game. Which in turn can't be deflected. It is just to OP. Also takedown prone effect is instant, even before animation finished.
Disagree with Roar, i am just tired of hearing it all the time. Make it have a long cool down and then we can talk about a daze effect.
Mark should have reduced efficiency in pvp.
I've played against GWF in preview and they were still formidable with the first round of nerds. Adding back all these buffs is not going to solve any balance from a pvp perspective. I think that the original idea of picking tanky or damage was sound but the latest changes are moving away from that concept.
Im not sure what "demand flexibility" means, unless your taking about GFs can on demand mark, while GWFs have to use an ability.
Aoe Mark on GFs would be nice, if it didnt fall off if you are attacked. Speaking from experience in recent HEs, I use Enforced Threat plenty of times, and if I use it close enough to targets, it almost auto falls off even if I am trying to block. Dont get me wrong in all this, currently mod 3 GWF is my main, but this seems a little overboard in the wrong directions...
As far as PVP ins concerned, there are alot of things that are bypassing DR - so actually my experience of not being tanky enough on BOTH GWF and GF is surrounding those powers (CW+HR) the CW capstone is getting a nerf, but again, still bypasses DR - which IMO is bad. HRs have piercing blades (dont know much about how that works). Thats a different issue though.
OVerall, while this may be a QoL improvement for GWFs my concerns are here:
1) Destroyers now deal more damage (not needed TBH) and can also access the Sent feat with 10 points for (15% more dmg to marked targets) This is compounding the issue now that mark is not removed. Maybe if this feat was moved to 15 points (T3) into the Sent tree, this would be more fair and only help Sents. Since this 20% dmg boost is a dmg boost to Destroyers as well already - now itll be 35%.
2) GWFs mark - not being removed when taking damage, is now actually superior (from my take as a GF/GWF player) to GFs. GFs only have 1 perma on demand mark, while GWFs stays just like tab, and TR is an AOE mark. IBS is very common and also marks.
3) It just seems, to be brutally honest, quite sloppy to me to give the GF a "mark" ability but then give that SAME ability to GWFs. Seems like to again being 100% honest here Chris, that ALL GF mark abilities should be "perma" like this (for GWF), and GFs should be given a new Tab ability... I know you dont want to re-do the mechanics, but I just dont see the "magic" behind GFs being able to mark on command - it even requires animation time which frankly sucks too...
Id rather have encounters and at wills like TR that perma mark instead and be given a new tab - heck even if it was a sprint ability.
The only thing that seems to make GF > Sent is into the fray for party damage buffs.
Im surprised im the only one posting here...
Ill have to do some testing in PVP, this damage increase seems to be right back to where we were mod 2 with GWFs being ultra tanky and having good damage, this is an effective 35% damage increase for most GWFs now... (since mark was temporary before, it was hardly something to rely on)
Maybe GFs need a feat that also increases damage 15% to marked targets as well, Maybe Tab mark needs to be an "AOE" mark just like Enforced Threat.... I dunno....
Destroyers having access to 15% more dmg to marked targets is nothing new so whats the bid deal ? My own Destroyer used that feat for quite some time till I decided to increase my survivability and if healing depression ends up making UR useless in PVP I'll take the +15% damage again.
The real Mod 4 GWF issue ( PVP ) is not our lack/ abundance of damage - its our inability to land attacks on enemies consistently. Who cares if a Destroyer can get some huge % dps increase if he cant catch the enemy
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
IMO i don't think this is good balance. Adding prone back make it so that every 6 seconds GWF have a chance to prone and then land one of the hardest hitting encounters in the game. Which in turn can't be deflected. It is just to OP. Also takedown prone effect is instant, even before animation finished.
Disagree with Roar, i am just tired of hearing it all the time. Make it have a long cool down and then we can talk about a daze effect.
Mark should have reduced efficiency in pvp.
I've played against GWF in preview and they were still formidable with the first round of nerds. Adding back all these buffs is not going to solve any balance from a pvp perspective. I think that the original idea of picking tanky or damage was sound but the latest changes are moving away from that concept.
You are not a GWF, you havent spent ages chasing good ranged players with DODGEs ( you know that shifty thing which actually allows you to avoid any damage/cc while we, GWFs, have to eat any and all damage/cc ) around the map while they slowly drain you to death. Please refrain from commenting on a class you do not know.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
If you will move powerful challenge to t3, which need to amend focused destroyer? the result is the destroyer iv exchanging this feet for something else, having 12% damage "free" of marked rather than spend 5 pts in sentinel.
this is the problem: the sm will sink further to reverse all the problems that brings iv.
ai, ai, ai. for the record. wms need 5 points to up encounter damage in 10%. tr will up all damages by 20%. who is the "dps - trap - tree"?
Very true. That's why I used to have PC slotted on my IV Destroyer.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Honestly Crush, If you WANT to roll with mark changes....
Reverse this change, put mark BACK at 8% - you can even keep the "perma mark" thing if you want but this should ALSO be done for GFs... (DPS boost for all).
Its seems this is a fix for Sent GWFs ability to tank and deal damage. Swap Powerful Challenge with Intimidation.
Then you can roll out this:
Powerful Challenge: Increases effectiveness of mark to 20%. Mark also applies combat advantage. This would NOT include the 15% dmg bonus anymore, but now that mark is "perma" its MUCH MUCH stronger. Now it also adds CA damage - this will improve the QoL for Sents quite a bit.
Now this basically makes Sent GWFs have the same mark as GFs(tab), but it costs them 5 feat points in the SENT tree - far away from Destroyers. BTW, if you make GWF mark "perma" GFs should ALSO get this perma mark, and THEN you should consider HALVING its duration to 10 seconds. 20 seconds is just silly TBH... More for PVP purposes. Id even say 5-6 seconds is fair for PVP... But 10 is OK as well.
Im ALL for GWF buffs - especially after the MASSIVE nerfs. I just dont get why MARK is the avenue you want to pursue. Of all the options.
I mean its like giving CWs stealth as a side-effect to their powers..... I get BOTH fighters have mark, but why would GWF's Threat Rush mark be perma, when GFs isnt? Just makes no sense.
TBH, to save time/headache later, you should just swap GFs tab with something else, and make it the same for both GWF/GF in how mark operates.... Otherwise itll never work.
Now that Knights Valor and Into the Fray have been beefed up, those would be two VERY attractive options for "tab".
Shoot man, id rather take a "spell mastery" slot like CWs have and beef up mark via encounters/at wills like GWFs have....
EDIT: SwordMasters need to have a "mark" ability as well now... Not just IV - seeing as mark is going to be a MASSIVE DPS booster...
Bro , Intimidation is stronger than powerfull challange, stop talkin and think for a second...
most of you from here i've didn't seen you on preview shard, either to try a different build...
a GWF sentinel build works fine... and Intimidation is the most powerfull Feat of the GWF atm if you KNOW how to use it.
GWF sentinel isn't the same as it used to be, it's transformed from single target to aoe target, and i gladly accept the changes crush done, indeed it's still underpowered because of the CW and HR atm, but if they get changes until live, gwf will still be a strong force in pvp, you just need to know how to play it.
> Mark: No longer removed from a Great Weapon Fighter when he is struck by his foe. It will always last its full duration.
Mark: Now properly provides 20% increased damage on the target for the Great Weapon Fighter. Still provides 8% for allies.
Mark: Now properly provides Combat Advantage against marked targets. This affects the Great Weapon Fighter and his allies.
Crush, the damage i do from Intimidation feat, doesn't stack with Powerful Challange/trample the fallen calssfeature , and probably won't stack with MArk neither, it's this how is supposed to work?
btw: it doesn't change a thing with that mark, either it stays for a second or 20 s , GWF IV destroyer always rushed in a crowd with threating rush, after the mark dissaperd they would used it again ... 20 seconds indeed it's too much, in a dungeon it takes only 5 seconds to clear the mobs in front of you, but this 20 seconds is biased on a fight against a boss, cause you cannot mark him forevor because of the threating rush that has 3 charges , but indeed it can be shorten to 10 seconds, but like i said that won't matter if it's 20 seconds or less ... geez
atm DEVS created another build for GWF to do great in pvp.
Bro , Intimidation is stronger than powerfull challange, stop talkin and think for a second...
most of you from here i've didn't seen you on preview shard, either to try a different build...
a GWF sentinel build works fine... and Intimidation is the most powerfull Feat of the GWF atm if you KNOW how to use it.
GWF sentinel isn't the same as it used to be, it's transformed from single target to aoe target, and i gladly accept the changes crush done, indeed it's still underpowered because of the CW and HR atm, but if they get changes until live, gwf will still be a strong force in pvp, you just need to know how to play it.
> Mark: No longer removed from a Great Weapon Fighter when he is struck by his foe. It will always last its full duration.
Mark: Now properly provides 20% increased damage on the target for the Great Weapon Fighter. Still provides 8% for allies.
Mark: Now properly provides Combat Advantage against marked targets. This affects the Great Weapon Fighter and his allies.
Crush, the damage i do from Intimidation feat, doesn't stack with Powerful Challange/trample the fallen calssfeature , and probably won't stack with MArk neither, it's this how is supposed to work?
btw: it doesn't change a thing with that mark, either it stays for a second or 20 s , GWF IV destroyer always rushed in a crowd with threating rush, after the mark dissaperd they would used it again ... 20 seconds indeed it's too much, in a dungeon it takes only 5 seconds to clear the mobs in front of you, but this 20 seconds is biased on a fight against a boss, cause you cannot mark him forevor because of the threating rush that has 3 charges , but indeed it can be shorten to 10 seconds, but like i said that won't matter if it's 20 seconds or less ... geez
atm DEVS created another build for GWF to do great in pvp.
I can see an interesting Sentinel IV build with these changes. Will test once they update preview
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Reaching them per se is not the problem. You can Sprint to them and with 3 TRs you can reach any ranged class. Here our troubles begin however, once next to a CW/HR/DC who can all dodge and negate any damage or cc we are left with no tool to actually catch them for long enough to land a rotation after our stamina is spent and our TR is on CD. The new stun effect is simply not enough, period
Exactly what i said, Rush problem is only against "ranged" classes. Sprint is not enough to reach them and yeah i forgot to mention about the stuns. I'v tried pvps only in icewind but some ppl told me that Frontline doesn't prone in domination and btw both Frontline and takedown have a reeeeaaaally short stun time against full tenacity ppl. I personally need about 2-3 rotation before catch someone with IBS. A good mage or HR can CC gwfs all around w/o taking more than 5k dmg. This has no sense. Again i sugest to decrease our skill power, if this is the problem, but don't change the skills mechanism. Many ppl cry about gwf CC with prone, prone, prone and prone again, but this is not different from HR stuns or CW cc or GF stuns/prone. I think the real problem in pvp is that a gwf has to much burst dmg. Maybe a good solution might be to decrease crit severity?
I thought there was a 40% decrease in stamina and that you can actually even spec a perma sprint build now?
I agree it is rough having charges, but TR + shift cancel was one thing in Mod 2 that BLEW your guys class up. It is too spammable as a gwf, especially in unstoppable. Lets be real, your damage will go back up, and the mods are doing this so people will reroll and spend money. I have a feeling everyone else will get toneddown and your damage will go back to where it was.
When they change the T4 feat to a 10% chance (down from 25%) it will make Destroyers deal less damage as well. So there shouldnt be any MAJOR issues with the class.
And take away my PvE destro DPS... Really, pvpers should be separate from normal players. All pve nerfs came from pvp QQ. Did you forget deep gash you used from MY tree? Nerfed as well. Sadly HR will get higher base damage than GWFs... New party: GF, SW healer, maybe CW, HR and... another HR. Who need useless destro anymore? Less survivability=less dps=low chance from lfg, maybe some from friends/guild. Its not GWFs fault that GFs, HRs or TRs have same issue with pt right now. Remember, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Without pvp whiners your class wont be nerfed probably.
We need
Higher base damage
Lower mark duration for destro, 5-10 sec is enough coz we are glass cannons
Leave sprint as it is on live server, cc immunity back to unstoppale
Charges on TR only in pvp; it saved my life in pve many times, tr from red area to another mob; or at least faster cd on it
Slam is useless now, make it can crit
Redesign reaping strike, its worst at will ever
SM path need big buff
The problem a FEW GWF have is they do not give honest Feedback and give other GWF a bad name.
When ROAR was broken, - The right thing to do was to bring it to Devs, not wait until it's live.
Same goes for Other GWF abilites that allowed stunlock/prone death and then runninng away should you come upon someone who happens to dodge your OPness.
CW's are allowed on this thread and I personally try to give honest feedback on CW thread as well. You will see that I do it on both GF, GWF and CW forums. We have 1 tree that excels at Control but little damage, we have 1 tree that excels at damage but little control, we have 1 tree that is broken and supposed to help the TEAM.
We all have to give honest feedback or we will not make it through some of the toughest dungeons. Nerfing CW damage as you believe we're HULKED out is not the answer, and seems to be very PVP focused.
TR's are surviving only because of stealth/bilethorn builds and miss out on PVE content
GF have have poor damage and also miss out on PVE content
HR have Great damage but because GF isn't there to hold agro spend more time running than fighting.
DC have high survivability but do very little damage and therefore are not popular in pvp and occasional pve.
GWF excel at both pve and pvp
CW excel at pve but will be crushed by anyone that can control them. hr/tr/gwf/gf.
This will likely be deleted, Please consider other players have worked hard to raise their level 60 character to enjoy content and not to have their class nerfed into unusefullness.
Reaching them per se is not the problem. You can Sprint to them and with 3 TRs you can reach any ranged class. Here our troubles begin however, once next to a CW/HR/DC who can all dodge and negate any damage or cc we are left with no tool to actually catch them for long enough to land a rotation after our stamina is spent and our TR is on CD. The new stun effect is simply not enough.
Solution - let Takedown keep its prone. CWs already hulked out, HRs will be pretty much as good in mod 4. GFs are improved, DCs can be next to immortal, TRs have their one way ticket but hey, its something. Without a single prone, GWFs will be sitting ducks albeit sitting ducks with high HP and high potential damage. Having one Prone will strike a nice balance. And please do keep in mind, having 1 prone doesnt guarantee you anything as it can be very well dodged.
PS: To a CW who comes and claims that with Takedown as a Prone we will have the ability to potentially knock people down every 6 seconds I reply -> and you have a dodge which gives you the ability to potentially avoid any damage and cc every 6 secs or less.. so please go back to your own forum thread
Other classes get 2 dodges maybe three. Takedown effect (prone) hits before animation which makes it very hard to dodge. Again prone is to strong because then you land IBS with no chance to deflect it + added damage for an encounter that hits very hard. Now with damage getting another buff for GWF it will compound the issue. Try out the GWF on preview, they are not sitting ducks. Just now you don't get a guaranteed IBS hit, you have to time it like other classes
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
Other classes get 2 dodges maybe three. Takedown effect (prone) hits before animation which makes it very hard to dodge. Again prone is to strong because then you land IBS with no chance to deflect it + added damage for an encounter that hits very hard. Now with damage getting another buff for GWF it will compound the issue. Try out the GWF on preview, they are not sitting ducks. Just now you don't get a guaranteed IBS hit, you have to time it like other classes
LOOL IBS is not auto target skill you can just walk away you have zero experience about GWF .
All other class have auto target skills GWF have only 1 flourish SLOW animation short cc and can be easly dodged.
CW have only 1 non auto target skill .
And CW became in mod 4 Juggernaut Golem (40k hp 80% dmr) with 3 doge super control high controll resist high dps and ignoring any type of DMR and damage immunity and he have prone skill . Where is the pvp balance here?
Or HR super heal 30%+ Life steal more dps more ignoring DMR and damage immunity more controll more evasion 40%+++ and he have prone skill too.
LOOL IBS is not auto target skill you can just walk away you have zero experience about GWF .
All other class have auto target skills GWF have only 1 flourish SLOW animation short cc and can be easly dodged.
CW have only 1 non auto target skill .
And CW became in mod 4 Juggernaut Golem (40k hp 80% dmr) with 3 doge super control high controll resist high dps and ignoring any type of DMR and damage immunity.
Didn't say IBS was auto target? right now with prone on takedown, it is a guarantied to hit (the other person is prone)... Hence why it is so powerful
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
^ This. Most people COMPLETELY miss the points that
- Most of the "issues" with GWF were ALREADY taken care of on the other class side. CWs have 50% DR boost now... Honestly HR could already beat GWF, TR can stalemate, GFs got a MAJOR overhaul, but MOST classes actually didnt have a TON of issues with GWF, mainly CW.
Again Crush, if you see this and want to keep this class balanced and fair. - bring prone back to takedown. (already got dmg nerf. You can adjust the "duration" of takedown to whatever fits.)
- Remove CC immunity on sprint. This needs to go, this is going to just cause issues TBH. This is why GWFs need control back, NOT some cheesy immunity. If you want, GWFs can keep some DR (id suggest deflect TBH instead).
- You can keep this mark damage stuff.
- Roar SHOULD "daze" for 1 second now IMO (keep in mind, in PVP 1 sec = about .5-.6 seconds). This should be an interrupt right? 1 sec daze actually makes this useful. GWFs are giving up CC immunity on sprint they need SOME control.
- Reduce the % chance to gain a destroyer stack to 10% (down from 25%) this is NOT the capstone, but the T4.
- Move Powerful Challenge to T3 in the Sent Tree so Destroyers cant get this. NOW you have balance....
Frontline stuns for 2-3 sec (less in pvp) and is AoE and much easier to land than Roar. Giving Roar 1 sec "daze" still makes it viable and not even close to OP for pvp. 1 sec in pvp isnt even enough time to sprint OR Threat rush to the target AND takedown, so you wont have to worry about that combo.
CC immunity on sprint NEEDs to go - this is just super cheesy and is going to be abused and make the class no fun. This is the main reason I dont want to play the class TBH. Itll be ALL about stam gain and using in short bursts for cheesy play.
Unstoppable is already nerfed to 15-30%, so GWFs overall are MUCH less tanky than before. People are also forgetting Unstoppable REcovery was NOT respecting healing depression on live, this was causing some issues as well. When they change the T4 feat to a 10% chance (down from 25%) it will make Destroyers deal less damage as well. So there shouldnt be any MAJOR issues with the class.
Overall this would honestly make them fair.
leave focused destroyer feat alone w,o it swordmaster wouldnt even stand a chance in pvp or pve, SM would do 0 dmg.
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nezraalMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
After having done more testing with every build I can think of so far I have some feedback on the GWF changes.
Sprint: You can make a build that is almost permasprint which grants a lot of CC immunity and significant damage reduction however there are two problems with it. First is that it is slow to start so it's hard to time using sprint in order to "dodge" because it takes a moment to begin sprinting. So while it has it's uses the main problem is that even though it grants reduction you are taking damage the entire time you are sprinting without the ability to avoid damage altogether. Thus the dots such as Assailing and Hunter's careful attack still do significant damage even while you are trying to gap close or move to avoid an attack.
Takedown: Useless now in PVP. The stun is absolutely not long enough and does nil damage. It is totally an unusable skill.
Frontline surge: If you keep it the way it is, allowing it to prone it will be fine. However if it no longer prones and stuns like takedown, it will also be useless. The damage at least is nice.
IBS: Doesn't hit hard enough now compared to the other classes damage buffs. I can literally be one shotted by a GF with the damage buff given them. HR's thornward will kill you before you can damage them down. CW assailing will kill you while the absorb your damage with shield and blink around. IBS has lost it's bite which would've been fine if you didn't give such damage buffs to other classes. This is also in combination with the fact that we actually have to land it. With no true prone we will have no chance to do this effectively end game.
Roar: Fixed, thank god. No more roar fests.
Flourish: Not enough damage, difficult to land, telegraphed with long animation, easy to dodge, doesn't stun lock at the end long enough for IBS.
Threatening rush: Only decent gap closer nerfed to the ground. Think how many blinks CW's get or how many shifts HR's get. It's impossible to close the gap and lock them down now. You are killing this class on par with the GF nerf of Mod 3.
Sentinel: No DPS, runs around flailing a sword till they die.
Destroyer: No survivability, runs around flailing sword till they die.
GWF: Overall weaknesses now: Not enough dps to kill classes effectively, more importantly not enough gap closers or CC to properly land said DPS in order to PVP appropriately. We have no Dots like basically all the other classes now (GF knee break, CW assailing, HR careful attack) which allows other classes to land a DoT and then dodge around till we die. The only damage we HAD was burst. If you had left the GWF DPS the way it was it would actually be in line with all the other buffs now. As it stands you have nerfed GWF AND buffed other classes to at least the level that GWF's were in this module.
Closing thought: I was discussing mod 4 GWF nerfs with fellow guildmates this morning and a couple actually said something to the effect of, "good GWF's deserve to be unplayable next mod"... This sentiment underlies what I feel is being perpetrated on my class. That we were too strong for too long and now we deserve to be nerfed into oblivion as penance. We've had our time in the sun, now off to the dungeon with us. Please, kind devs, I implore you not to use this logic. Balance our class, make it fair, make us work for our kills, but please do not punish GWF's for what is essentially out of our control. We don't build the class feats, nor do we change the encounter power tooltips. We just play our class as best we can. I know you guys can do this right, and I have faith that you will make our class fun and playable in mod 4. Thanks for your time.
Greatfeedback from one of the top and most respected GWFs in the game, it would be wise to listen to this, I too have been hearing and seeing in zone the same comments "Itll be CWs turn to dominate the GWF now" statements such as this, its pretty clear that most people a re ignorant of all things GWF but just see and hear that GWFs are unplayable.
The GWF is going to be the "new" GF for mod 4 without things done about it.
Again I want to stress, MOST good pvpers on MOST classes did not have issues with GWF, even JUST nerfing roar stun AND unstoppable recovery honestly would have been pretty close to enough. The only class that HAD issues was CW which was fixed BOTH on the GWF end and the CW end... HRs got their aspect nerfed, but wit respect to GWFs its actually a BUFF because now that GWFs cant prone, deflect is even bigger for PVP.
Id encourage you to look at my proposition Chris, I really think it would bring this class right where you want it.
IMO i don't think this is good balance. Adding prone back make it so that every 6 seconds GWF have a chance to prone and then land one of the hardest hitting encounters in the game. Which in turn can't be deflected. It is just to OP. Also takedown prone effect is instant, even before animation finished.
Disagree with Roar, i am just tired of hearing it all the time. Make it have a long cool down and then we can talk about a daze effect.
Mark should have reduced efficiency in pvp.
I've played against GWF in preview and they were still formidable with the first round of nerds. Adding back all these buffs is not going to solve any balance from a pvp perspective. I think that the original idea of picking tanky or damage was sound but the latest changes are moving away from that concept.
Just to clarify:
- Takedown is at 7-8 seconds on destroyers even with the feat from destroyer tree "Relentless battle fury"
- IBS is NOT affected by relentless battle fury, which means even if you have Takedown up after 7-8 seconds, IBS will be up after 12 seconds or so. To land the combo you still have to wait for IBS to be up, you know that right. It's not "takedown+IBS" every 6 seconds as you say.
- IBS animation is so slow that it practically CANNOT LAND unless the target is either CCed or sleeping/ afk. Name me another class with a power that can land only if the target is not moving at all for few seconds, and then we can talk about "one of the hardest hitting encounters".
What non-GWF players or pug players fail to understand is that there's a sea of difference in what they "perceive" and what the real potential of each class is. Good TRs, CWs, HRs can evade A LOT and be **** hard to just catch. Reason why GWFs use Roar or FLS. Back in module 1 no good GWF would face a CW without Roar slotted and bravery. I already posted a video of one old sentinel trying a 1v1 with flourish and getting kited/ destroyed.
Current changes pretty much make GWFs even weaker than module 1 sentinels, cause regeneration is gone now and HRs are the new self-healing monsters.
Roar not even rooting means one important ranged CC gone.
Flourish never land on a half good ranged/ evading player.
Takedown same thing, easily dodge, and if you cannot dodge it easily, you're just not good enough with your TR/CW/HR.
FLS could be useful but 2 secs stun, reduced with tenacity, is not enough to follow with a takedown, let alone an IBS.
Lack of CC means IBS is useless and will never land, again, unless the enemy is sleeping.
Threat rush reduced to 3 charges and sprint buffed to be used as a defensive move. Still, after you "reach" the enemy, what do you do? Takedown? Dodged. Flourish? Dodged.
Swordmaster is helpless in PvP.
IV could use FLS from up close. Yup, after 17 seconds, if it's not dodged.
With DR from Unstoppable nerfed and, DO NOT FORGET, determination now building A LOT SLOWER = GWF LOSES A LOT MORE HP BEFORE GOING UNSTOPPABLE. It's indeed a double nerf to unstoppable.
For PvE, being top damage dealers on par with other DPS classes is a must.
For PvP, mobility and ability to catch up with ranged and dodging classes who have tons of tools to avoid damage, and land our hits, is a must too. Expecially since GWFs are the class with the most easy to dodge attacks and no way to avoid damage completely (yeah, some guys love to repeat the fairy tale that "GWFs become invulnerable" when in unstoppable. So untrue. They get damage, get killed expecially if debuffed, no matter how red they are).
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nezraalMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
After having done more testing with every build I can think of so far I have some feedback on the GWF changes.
Sprint: You can make a build that is almost permasprint which grants a lot of CC immunity and significant damage reduction however there are two problems with it. First is that sprint is slow to start so it's difficult to time using sprint in order to "dodge" because it takes a moment to begin sprinting. So while it has it's uses the main problem is that even though it grants reduction you are taking damage the entire time you are sprinting without the ability to avoid damage altogether. Thus the dots such as Assailing and Hunter's careful attack still do significant damage even while you are trying to gap close or move to avoid an attack.
Takedown: Useless now in PVP. The stun is absolutely not long enough and does nil damage. It is totally an unusable skill.
Frontline surge: If you keep it the way it is, allowing it to prone it will be fine. However if it no longer prones and stuns like takedown, it will also be useless. The damage at least is nice.
IBS: Doesn't hit hard enough now compared to the other classes damage buffs. I can literally be one shotted by a GF with the damage buff given them. HR's thornward will kill you before you can damage them down. CW assailing will kill you while they absorb your damage with shield and blink around. IBS has lost it's bite which would've been fine if you didn't give such damage buffs to other classes. This is also in combination with the fact that we actually have to land it. With no true prone we will have no chance to do this effectively end game.
Roar: Fixed, thank god. No more roar fests.
Flourish: Not enough damage, difficult to land, telegraphed with long animation, easy to dodge, doesn't stun lock at the end long enough for IBS.
Threatening rush: Only decent gap closer nerfed to the ground. Think how many blinks CW's get or how many shifts HR's get. It's impossible to close the gap and lock them down now. You are killing this class on par with the GF nerf of Mod 3.
Sentinel: No DPS, runs around flailing a sword till they die.
Destroyer: No survivability, runs around flailing sword till they die.
GWF: Overall weaknesses now: Not enough dps to kill classes effectively, more importantly not enough gap closers or CC to properly land said DPS in order to PVP appropriately. We have no Dots like basically all the other classes now (GF knee break, CW assailing, HR careful attack) which allows other classes to land a DoT and then dodge around till we die. The only damage we HAD was burst. If you had left the GWF DPS the way it was it would actually be in line with all the other buffs now. As it stands you have nerfed GWF AND buffed other classes to at least the level that GWF's were in this module.
Closing thought: I was discussing mod 4 GWF nerfs with fellow guildmates this morning and a couple actually said something to the effect of, "good, it's about time, GWF's deserve to be unplayable next mod"... This sentiment underlies what I feel is being perpetrated on my class. That we were too strong for too long and now we deserve to be nerfed into oblivion as penance. We've had our time in the sun, now off to the dungeon with us. Please, kind devs, I implore you not to use this logic. Balance our class, make it fair, make us work for our kills, but please do not punish GWF's for what is essentially out of our control. We don't build the class feats, nor do we change the encounter power tooltips. We just play our class as best we can. I know you guys can do this right, and I have faith that you will make our class fun and playable in mod 4. Thanks for your time.
Crush, I would pay very careful attention to this, a very well reputed GWF, and about time you guys re-did your tests. Remember in addition to all this, PvP is not a 1v1 - it's a team vs team and GWF is the most vulnerable - the sprint with CC immunity isn't really the answer. In addition to all this I want to add IBS animation time should be reduced so it can actually "land" on a target - since there is no prone and the stuns are really not doing anything. We need some kind of control to "catch" other classes and a dps boost! The class is unplayable.
"The GWF is going to be the "new" GF for mod 4 without things done about it.
Again I want to stress, MOST good pvpers on MOST classes did not have issues with GWF, even JUST nerfing roar stun AND unstoppable recovery honestly would have been pretty close to enough. The only class that HAD issues was CW which was fixed BOTH on the GWF end and the CW end... HRs got their aspect nerfed, but wit respect to GWFs its actually a BUFF because now that GWFs cant prone, deflect is even bigger for PVP.
Id encourage you to look at my proposition Chris, I really think it would bring this class right where you want it."
BUG: GWFs can spam target lock to localize tr in stealth. This is valid for all the classes tho. Pls fix it
indeed, it's a bind to target the enemies using scrool.
Shield from CW should break after landing some amount of damage, and we need deep gash reworked.
leave focused destroyer feat alone w,o it swordmaster wouldnt even stand a chance in pvp or pve, SM would do 0 dmg.
TO be frank Cookie, I dont think there is going to be a way to balance SM in mod 4 atm. SM needs some love on the GWF side forsure, but the way things are going it SO out of wack, id rather them bring GWFs back in line for PVE and PVP purposes (even if its just IV right now) and THEN look at buffing up SM path by adding mark to an ability as well as buffing damage of flourish + a few other ideas.
But my exeperience with changes is that if we ask for too many at once, it doesnt get listened too, so im trying to focus on the MAIN issues of the class right now, get those brought back in line with the other classes than to try and compare IV and SM paths for GWF in PVP atm.
This is simply not enough its a big disadvantage for pvp,
more charges is Really needed!
for example like
Threatening Rush: 3 Charges 9s charge refill / compared to TR charges its this a joke
Cload of Stell: 8 Charges 3s charge refill / fast and more charges
we will not have a chance to catch our opponents or land a hit if it stays that way.
the main reason is our opponents got high & bether Dodge-Skill and more faster.
Improve Threatening Rush to 6-8Charges and reduce the charge refill to 3s
Im fine with 3 charges IF GWFs get other forms of control (see my post about takedown prone Roar Daze and keeping FLS stun - this would be enough combined with TR charges - especially now that mark is perma for 20 seconds... talk about a DPS boost!)
But we DO need some control back... seriously.... Unstoppable is nerfed - fine. Control is nerfed - fine.
Takedown - needs a prone
Roar - needs "some" CC - not just "interrupt" as that rarely benefits in PVP. A 1 sec daze I think is plenty and with CC resist (tenacity/halflings/elven enchant/ shield CW master etc) itll be more like .5-.6 sec on Daze - just enough to be still mildly useful but not OP.
remove sprint Immunity - its just cheesy.
Powerful Challenge needs to be a Sent feat only!
Id still like a small nerf to "destroyer" T4 feat to 10% chance to proc off ANY attack - hurts this for PVP only.
Im fine with 3 charges IF GWFs get other forms of control (see my post about takedown prone Roar Daze and keeping FLS stun - this would be enough combined with TR charges - especially now that mark is perma for 20 seconds... talk about a DPS boost!)
But we DO need some control back... seriously.... Unstoppable is nerfed - fine. Control is nerfed - fine.
Takedown - needs a prone
Roar - needs "some" CC - not just "interrupt" as that rarely benefits in PVP. A 1 sec daze I think is plenty and with CC resist (tenacity/halflings/elven enchant/ shield CW master etc) itll be more like .5-.6 sec on Daze - just enough to be still mildly useful but not OP.
remove sprint Immunity - its just cheesy.
Powerful Challenge needs to be a Sent feat only!
Id still like a small nerf to "destroyer" T4 feat to 10% chance to proc off ANY attack - hurts this for PVP only.
You guys think if we keep at this long enough, keep repeating and explaining the same over and over they'll actually listen ? Is this the way it works ? Seriously do the devs simply respond to the "loudest noise" ? That is so wrong. Something as significant as these huge class changes can't simply be made because a group of people spammed the forums. Honestly if this is how changes are made than this game looses points big time. Developers should be the people who best know how their game works, best know what roles the classes fill and how they interact. How about it Crush, for instance were you already planning the GF buffs before the GFs playerbase got forum active ?
I mean really, all you need in order to evaluate how balanced yuor classes are is watch some dominations or better yet participate in a few dozen matches with every class. You'll see whats what
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
You guys think if we keep at this long enough, keep repeating and explaining the same over and over they'll actually listen ? Is this the way it works ? Seriously do the devs simply respond to the "loudest noise" ? That is so wrong. Something as significant as these huge class changes can't simply be made because a group of people spammed the forums. Honestly if this is how changes are made than this game looses points big time. Developers should be the people who best know how their game works, best know what roles the classes fill and how they interact. How about it Crush, for instance were you already planning the GF buffs before the GFs playerbase got forum active ?
I mean really, all you need in order to evaluate how balanced yuor classes are is watch some dominations or better yet participate in a few dozen matches with every class. You'll see whats what
While I am in the same boat as everyone here - being really frustrated... From a DEV perspective, look at all the BAD suggestions that are here in the thread... How would Crush know what needs to be done in high lvl PVP to make things balanced as well as in PVE?
Thats the issue, so while I do agree with you 100%, I think SOME patience is warranted since its only 1 guy trying to do ALL these changes himself. As much as you, or I, or Tyrion (Tolkienbuff) can suggest the correct changes, its gotta be tested and to be frank, I dont think their test team is really capable of testing "top tier pvp" gameplay. So things might seem fine at the "ground level" and its only up in the clouds that you really notice a few screws are loose and your plane is taking a nose dive!
So lets (myself included) try and be patient and provide quality control on the ground before takeoff and point out which screws are loose and hopefully he will pay attention!
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
You guys think if we keep at this long enough, keep repeating and explaining the same over and over they'll actually listen ? Is this the way it works ? Seriously do the devs simply respond to the "loudest noise" ? That is so wrong. Something as significant as these huge class changes can't simply be made because a group of people spammed the forums. Honestly if this is how changes are made than this game looses points big time. Developers should be the people who best know how their game works, best know what roles the classes fill and how they interact. How about it Crush, for instance were you already planning the GF buffs before the GFs playerbase got forum active ?
I mean really, all you need in order to evaluate how balanced yuor classes are is watch some dominations or better yet participate in a few dozen matches with every class. You'll see whats what
Also i think Crush know GWF TR DC GF SW is weak vs CW and HR but they dont have the time or more programers to fix those problems. This is why i ask for minor fix ,think and wish or suggest smal things
mybe they can do it.
like this : all stuns for GWf 0.5 sec more 20 % more faster IBS.
That is amazing, now Indomitable Battle strike will also increase GWF damage by 20% in PVP. Awesome (not)!!! And add the 10-15% damage from flanking, that's 20-35% for the GWF and 18-23% for allies. I guess Mod 4 will also be GWF's Module? (:
Definitely not going to be tr and dc module. We will be their companions tho
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
That is amazing, now Indomitable Battle strike will also increase GWF damage by 20% in PVP. Awesome (not)!!! And add the 10-15% damage from flanking, that's 20-35% for the GWF and 18-23% for allies. I guess Mod 4 will also be GWF's Module? (:
? What
IBS dont apply mark automatically only if he can kill somone. Have you ever see IBS mark effecting 20 feet?
It have a smal radius mybe 3-5 feat.
This have zero effect on pvp also what you cant hit you cant kill.
This modul will be the HR & CW modul.
While I am in the same boat as everyone here - being really frustrated... From a DEV perspective, look at all the BAD suggestions that are here in the thread... How would Crush know what needs to be done in high lvl PVP to make things balanced as well as in PVE?
Thats the issue, so while I do agree with you 100%, I think SOME patience is warranted since its only 1 guy trying to do ALL these changes himself. As much as you, or I, or Tyrion (Tolkienbuff) can suggest the correct changes, its gotta be tested and to be frank, I dont think their test team is really capable of testing "top tier pvp" gameplay. So things might seem fine at the "ground level" and its only up in the clouds that you really notice a few screws are loose and your plane is taking a nose dive!
So lets (myself included) try and be patient and provide quality control on the ground before takeoff and point out which screws are loose and hopefully he will pay attention!
Let's focus on what "every" GWF is agreeing to then.
1. GWF needs at least one prone, preferably with takedown
2. Takedown damage should be reversed to what it was
3. Sentinels dps is too low, Destroyer needs more tank
4. IBS & Flourish animation needs to be shorter.
5. The 3 charge on threatening rush isn't sufficient to close gaps between HR/CW and TF going invisible
6. Although Sprint without CC sounds great, however - the starting takes time - and by this time you will get cced by other classes
All other classes are buffed to an extent where IBS isn't as effective.
I think every GWF will agree to this. Am I correct?
Let's focus on what "every" GWF is agreeing to then.
1. GWF needs at least one prone, preferably with takedown
2. Takedown damage should be reversed to what it was
3. Sentinels dps is too low, Destroyer needs more tank
4. IBS & Flourish animation needs to be shorter.
5. The 3 charge on threatening rush isn't sufficient to close gaps between HR/CW and TF going invisible
6. Although Sprint without CC sounds great, however - the starting takes time - and by this time you will get cced by other classes
All other classes are buffed to an extent where IBS isn't as effective.
I think every GWF will agree to this. Am I correct?
Yepp correct but i dont think they will revers the nerfs or change anything too much work .
If i can pick one then i voite for :1. GWF needs at least one prone, preferably with takedown
I think with this change we all will be happy and stop asking anithing .
I just want to be fine not owerpowered .
GWF will have a fine spot in pve .
Comments
This would be true but with unstoppable going to 30% DR most Destroyers will be at or very close to DR cap. You can still get high DR on destroyer. Plus sprint has 30% added on. I just don't get all the new changes.
IMO i don't think this is good balance. Adding prone back make it so that every 6 seconds GWF have a chance to prone and then land one of the hardest hitting encounters in the game. Which in turn can't be deflected. It is just to OP. Also takedown prone effect is instant, even before animation finished.
Disagree with Roar, i am just tired of hearing it all the time. Make it have a long cool down and then we can talk about a daze effect.
Mark should have reduced efficiency in pvp.
I've played against GWF in preview and they were still formidable with the first round of nerds. Adding back all these buffs is not going to solve any balance from a pvp perspective. I think that the original idea of picking tanky or damage was sound but the latest changes are moving away from that concept.
Destroyers having access to 15% more dmg to marked targets is nothing new so whats the bid deal ? My own Destroyer used that feat for quite some time till I decided to increase my survivability and if healing depression ends up making UR useless in PVP I'll take the +15% damage again.
The real Mod 4 GWF issue ( PVP ) is not our lack/ abundance of damage - its our inability to land attacks on enemies consistently. Who cares if a Destroyer can get some huge % dps increase if he cant catch the enemy
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
You are not a GWF, you havent spent ages chasing good ranged players with DODGEs ( you know that shifty thing which actually allows you to avoid any damage/cc while we, GWFs, have to eat any and all damage/cc ) around the map while they slowly drain you to death. Please refrain from commenting on a class you do not know.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Very true. That's why I used to have PC slotted on my IV Destroyer.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Bro , Intimidation is stronger than powerfull challange, stop talkin and think for a second...
most of you from here i've didn't seen you on preview shard, either to try a different build...
a GWF sentinel build works fine... and Intimidation is the most powerfull Feat of the GWF atm if you KNOW how to use it.
GWF sentinel isn't the same as it used to be, it's transformed from single target to aoe target, and i gladly accept the changes crush done, indeed it's still underpowered because of the CW and HR atm, but if they get changes until live, gwf will still be a strong force in pvp, you just need to know how to play it.
> Mark: No longer removed from a Great Weapon Fighter when he is struck by his foe. It will always last its full duration.
Mark: Now properly provides 20% increased damage on the target for the Great Weapon Fighter. Still provides 8% for allies.
Mark: Now properly provides Combat Advantage against marked targets. This affects the Great Weapon Fighter and his allies.
Crush, the damage i do from Intimidation feat, doesn't stack with Powerful Challange/trample the fallen calssfeature , and probably won't stack with MArk neither, it's this how is supposed to work?
btw: it doesn't change a thing with that mark, either it stays for a second or 20 s , GWF IV destroyer always rushed in a crowd with threating rush, after the mark dissaperd they would used it again ... 20 seconds indeed it's too much, in a dungeon it takes only 5 seconds to clear the mobs in front of you, but this 20 seconds is biased on a fight against a boss, cause you cannot mark him forevor because of the threating rush that has 3 charges , but indeed it can be shorten to 10 seconds, but like i said that won't matter if it's 20 seconds or less ... geez
atm DEVS created another build for GWF to do great in pvp.
I can see an interesting Sentinel IV build with these changes. Will test once they update preview
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Exactly what i said, Rush problem is only against "ranged" classes. Sprint is not enough to reach them and yeah i forgot to mention about the stuns. I'v tried pvps only in icewind but some ppl told me that Frontline doesn't prone in domination and btw both Frontline and takedown have a reeeeaaaally short stun time against full tenacity ppl. I personally need about 2-3 rotation before catch someone with IBS. A good mage or HR can CC gwfs all around w/o taking more than 5k dmg. This has no sense. Again i sugest to decrease our skill power, if this is the problem, but don't change the skills mechanism. Many ppl cry about gwf CC with prone, prone, prone and prone again, but this is not different from HR stuns or CW cc or GF stuns/prone. I think the real problem in pvp is that a gwf has to much burst dmg. Maybe a good solution might be to decrease crit severity?
I agree it is rough having charges, but TR + shift cancel was one thing in Mod 2 that BLEW your guys class up. It is too spammable as a gwf, especially in unstoppable. Lets be real, your damage will go back up, and the mods are doing this so people will reroll and spend money. I have a feeling everyone else will get toneddown and your damage will go back to where it was.
And take away my PvE destro DPS... Really, pvpers should be separate from normal players. All pve nerfs came from pvp QQ. Did you forget deep gash you used from MY tree? Nerfed as well. Sadly HR will get higher base damage than GWFs... New party: GF, SW healer, maybe CW, HR and... another HR. Who need useless destro anymore? Less survivability=less dps=low chance from lfg, maybe some from friends/guild. Its not GWFs fault that GFs, HRs or TRs have same issue with pt right now. Remember, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Without pvp whiners your class wont be nerfed probably.
We need
Higher base damage
Lower mark duration for destro, 5-10 sec is enough coz we are glass cannons
Leave sprint as it is on live server, cc immunity back to unstoppale
Charges on TR only in pvp; it saved my life in pve many times, tr from red area to another mob; or at least faster cd on it
Slam is useless now, make it can crit
Redesign reaping strike, its worst at will ever
SM path need big buff
When ROAR was broken, - The right thing to do was to bring it to Devs, not wait until it's live.
Same goes for Other GWF abilites that allowed stunlock/prone death and then runninng away should you come upon someone who happens to dodge your OPness.
CW's are allowed on this thread and I personally try to give honest feedback on CW thread as well. You will see that I do it on both GF, GWF and CW forums. We have 1 tree that excels at Control but little damage, we have 1 tree that excels at damage but little control, we have 1 tree that is broken and supposed to help the TEAM.
We all have to give honest feedback or we will not make it through some of the toughest dungeons. Nerfing CW damage as you believe we're HULKED out is not the answer, and seems to be very PVP focused.
TR's are surviving only because of stealth/bilethorn builds and miss out on PVE content
GF have have poor damage and also miss out on PVE content
HR have Great damage but because GF isn't there to hold agro spend more time running than fighting.
DC have high survivability but do very little damage and therefore are not popular in pvp and occasional pve.
GWF excel at both pve and pvp
CW excel at pve but will be crushed by anyone that can control them. hr/tr/gwf/gf.
This will likely be deleted, Please consider other players have worked hard to raise their level 60 character to enjoy content and not to have their class nerfed into unusefullness.
Other classes get 2 dodges maybe three. Takedown effect (prone) hits before animation which makes it very hard to dodge. Again prone is to strong because then you land IBS with no chance to deflect it + added damage for an encounter that hits very hard. Now with damage getting another buff for GWF it will compound the issue. Try out the GWF on preview, they are not sitting ducks. Just now you don't get a guaranteed IBS hit, you have to time it like other classes
LOOL IBS is not auto target skill you can just walk away you have zero experience about GWF .
All other class have auto target skills GWF have only 1 flourish SLOW animation short cc and can be easly dodged.
CW have only 1 non auto target skill .
And CW became in mod 4 Juggernaut Golem (40k hp 80% dmr) with 3 doge super control high controll resist high dps and ignoring any type of DMR and damage immunity and he have prone skill . Where is the pvp balance here?
Or HR super heal 30%+ Life steal more dps more ignoring DMR and damage immunity more controll more evasion 40%+++ and he have prone skill too.
Didn't say IBS was auto target? right now with prone on takedown, it is a guarantied to hit (the other person is prone)... Hence why it is so powerful
No its not guarantied. Pro tip hold up your shild use dodge controll him or just use immunity skills dalys.
The problem was roar not take down.
leave focused destroyer feat alone w,o it swordmaster wouldnt even stand a chance in pvp or pve, SM would do 0 dmg.
You are wrong.
+ CAGI Calcultator
+ Liquid Tear Website
Greatfeedback from one of the top and most respected GWFs in the game, it would be wise to listen to this, I too have been hearing and seeing in zone the same comments "Itll be CWs turn to dominate the GWF now" statements such as this, its pretty clear that most people a re ignorant of all things GWF but just see and hear that GWFs are unplayable.
The GWF is going to be the "new" GF for mod 4 without things done about it.
Again I want to stress, MOST good pvpers on MOST classes did not have issues with GWF, even JUST nerfing roar stun AND unstoppable recovery honestly would have been pretty close to enough. The only class that HAD issues was CW which was fixed BOTH on the GWF end and the CW end... HRs got their aspect nerfed, but wit respect to GWFs its actually a BUFF because now that GWFs cant prone, deflect is even bigger for PVP.
Id encourage you to look at my proposition Chris, I really think it would bring this class right where you want it.
Just to clarify:
- Takedown is at 7-8 seconds on destroyers even with the feat from destroyer tree "Relentless battle fury"
- IBS is NOT affected by relentless battle fury, which means even if you have Takedown up after 7-8 seconds, IBS will be up after 12 seconds or so. To land the combo you still have to wait for IBS to be up, you know that right. It's not "takedown+IBS" every 6 seconds as you say.
- IBS animation is so slow that it practically CANNOT LAND unless the target is either CCed or sleeping/ afk. Name me another class with a power that can land only if the target is not moving at all for few seconds, and then we can talk about "one of the hardest hitting encounters".
What non-GWF players or pug players fail to understand is that there's a sea of difference in what they "perceive" and what the real potential of each class is. Good TRs, CWs, HRs can evade A LOT and be **** hard to just catch. Reason why GWFs use Roar or FLS. Back in module 1 no good GWF would face a CW without Roar slotted and bravery. I already posted a video of one old sentinel trying a 1v1 with flourish and getting kited/ destroyed.
Current changes pretty much make GWFs even weaker than module 1 sentinels, cause regeneration is gone now and HRs are the new self-healing monsters.
Roar not even rooting means one important ranged CC gone.
Flourish never land on a half good ranged/ evading player.
Takedown same thing, easily dodge, and if you cannot dodge it easily, you're just not good enough with your TR/CW/HR.
FLS could be useful but 2 secs stun, reduced with tenacity, is not enough to follow with a takedown, let alone an IBS.
Lack of CC means IBS is useless and will never land, again, unless the enemy is sleeping.
Threat rush reduced to 3 charges and sprint buffed to be used as a defensive move. Still, after you "reach" the enemy, what do you do? Takedown? Dodged. Flourish? Dodged.
Swordmaster is helpless in PvP.
IV could use FLS from up close. Yup, after 17 seconds, if it's not dodged.
With DR from Unstoppable nerfed and, DO NOT FORGET, determination now building A LOT SLOWER = GWF LOSES A LOT MORE HP BEFORE GOING UNSTOPPABLE. It's indeed a double nerf to unstoppable.
For PvE, being top damage dealers on par with other DPS classes is a must.
For PvP, mobility and ability to catch up with ranged and dodging classes who have tons of tools to avoid damage, and land our hits, is a must too. Expecially since GWFs are the class with the most easy to dodge attacks and no way to avoid damage completely (yeah, some guys love to repeat the fairy tale that "GWFs become invulnerable" when in unstoppable. So untrue. They get damage, get killed expecially if debuffed, no matter how red they are).
Crush, I would pay very careful attention to this, a very well reputed GWF, and about time you guys re-did your tests. Remember in addition to all this, PvP is not a 1v1 - it's a team vs team and GWF is the most vulnerable - the sprint with CC immunity isn't really the answer. In addition to all this I want to add IBS animation time should be reduced so it can actually "land" on a target - since there is no prone and the stuns are really not doing anything. We need some kind of control to "catch" other classes and a dps boost! The class is unplayable.
+1
+ CAGI Calcultator
+ Liquid Tear Website
indeed, it's a bind to target the enemies using scrool.
Shield from CW should break after landing some amount of damage, and we need deep gash reworked.
TO be frank Cookie, I dont think there is going to be a way to balance SM in mod 4 atm. SM needs some love on the GWF side forsure, but the way things are going it SO out of wack, id rather them bring GWFs back in line for PVE and PVP purposes (even if its just IV right now) and THEN look at buffing up SM path by adding mark to an ability as well as buffing damage of flourish + a few other ideas.
But my exeperience with changes is that if we ask for too many at once, it doesnt get listened too, so im trying to focus on the MAIN issues of the class right now, get those brought back in line with the other classes than to try and compare IV and SM paths for GWF in PVP atm.
Im fine with 3 charges IF GWFs get other forms of control (see my post about takedown prone Roar Daze and keeping FLS stun - this would be enough combined with TR charges - especially now that mark is perma for 20 seconds... talk about a DPS boost!)
But we DO need some control back... seriously.... Unstoppable is nerfed - fine. Control is nerfed - fine.
Takedown - needs a prone
Roar - needs "some" CC - not just "interrupt" as that rarely benefits in PVP. A 1 sec daze I think is plenty and with CC resist (tenacity/halflings/elven enchant/ shield CW master etc) itll be more like .5-.6 sec on Daze - just enough to be still mildly useful but not OP.
remove sprint Immunity - its just cheesy.
Powerful Challenge needs to be a Sent feat only!
Id still like a small nerf to "destroyer" T4 feat to 10% chance to proc off ANY attack - hurts this for PVP only.
You guys think if we keep at this long enough, keep repeating and explaining the same over and over they'll actually listen ? Is this the way it works ? Seriously do the devs simply respond to the "loudest noise" ? That is so wrong. Something as significant as these huge class changes can't simply be made because a group of people spammed the forums. Honestly if this is how changes are made than this game looses points big time. Developers should be the people who best know how their game works, best know what roles the classes fill and how they interact. How about it Crush, for instance were you already planning the GF buffs before the GFs playerbase got forum active ?
I mean really, all you need in order to evaluate how balanced yuor classes are is watch some dominations or better yet participate in a few dozen matches with every class. You'll see whats what
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
While I am in the same boat as everyone here - being really frustrated... From a DEV perspective, look at all the BAD suggestions that are here in the thread... How would Crush know what needs to be done in high lvl PVP to make things balanced as well as in PVE?
Thats the issue, so while I do agree with you 100%, I think SOME patience is warranted since its only 1 guy trying to do ALL these changes himself. As much as you, or I, or Tyrion (Tolkienbuff) can suggest the correct changes, its gotta be tested and to be frank, I dont think their test team is really capable of testing "top tier pvp" gameplay. So things might seem fine at the "ground level" and its only up in the clouds that you really notice a few screws are loose and your plane is taking a nose dive!
So lets (myself included) try and be patient and provide quality control on the ground before takeoff and point out which screws are loose and hopefully he will pay attention!
If you think Crush cant play this game you are total wrong just look at this match.
http://www.twitch.tv/perfectworld_community/b/548892597
Also i think Crush know GWF TR DC GF SW is weak vs CW and HR but they dont have the time or more programers to fix those problems. This is why i ask for minor fix ,think and wish or suggest smal things
mybe they can do it.
like this : all stuns for GWf 0.5 sec more 20 % more faster IBS.
Definitely not going to be tr and dc module. We will be their companions tho
? What
IBS dont apply mark automatically only if he can kill somone. Have you ever see IBS mark effecting 20 feet?
It have a smal radius mybe 3-5 feat.
This have zero effect on pvp also what you cant hit you cant kill.
This modul will be the HR & CW modul.
Let's focus on what "every" GWF is agreeing to then.
1. GWF needs at least one prone, preferably with takedown
2. Takedown damage should be reversed to what it was
3. Sentinels dps is too low, Destroyer needs more tank
4. IBS & Flourish animation needs to be shorter.
5. The 3 charge on threatening rush isn't sufficient to close gaps between HR/CW and TF going invisible
6. Although Sprint without CC sounds great, however - the starting takes time - and by this time you will get cced by other classes
All other classes are buffed to an extent where IBS isn't as effective.
I think every GWF will agree to this. Am I correct?
+ CAGI Calcultator
+ Liquid Tear Website
Yepp correct but i dont think they will revers the nerfs or change anything too much work .
If i can pick one then i voite for :1. GWF needs at least one prone, preferably with takedown
I think with this change we all will be happy and stop asking anithing .
I just want to be fine not owerpowered .
GWF will have a fine spot in pve .