Why GWF defensive stats bigger and better than GF? its so wrong!

re7joice

GWF with 3k defense 45% damage reduction
GF with 4.8k defense 48% damage reduction

GWF with 2k deflection 40% deflection chance
GF with 2k deflection 20% deflection chance, 25% if have plate agility feat, oh.. and i have 18 dex.

I just notice this. this is very wrong.................

GF defensive stats should be better and bigger than GWF because GWF has much better DPS.

ripyourlipsoff

Then add in Unstoppable, free arp, unstoppable recovery 5% max hp, massive crit chance... Its dumb, just dumb... The 2 classes should be almost identical albeit one spec for shield and sword the other specs for 2 hander.

ripyourlipsoff

mateodiscus wrote: »

Not that I am disagreeing with everything typed here. But I am tired of GF's complaining that GWF's get free armor pen. You get it too. Its called dex for GF's and con for GWF'S.

And when a GWF has def stats like that, hes going to hit for <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> just as much as you are. He has to feat heavily into senti to achieve that.

Brother slow down.... Its called Disciple of War feat in the Destroyer path. Also GWF gain more per stat then a GF.




Also Dex does not help a GF in the same way as a GWF we don't get ARp / Crit, we get deflection and aoe resist!

ripyourlipsoff

mateodiscus wrote: »

Not that I am disagreeing with everything typed here. But I am tired of GF's complaining that GWF's get free armor pen. You get it too. Its called dex for GF's and con for GWF'S.

And when a GWF has def stats like that, hes going to hit for <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> just as much as you are. He has to feat heavily into senti to achieve that.

GWf have maybe 5%-7% less DR then a GF in top gear! With amazing Offensive stats! They do not hit for <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>... A GWF would have to equip a lvl 40 weapon and may still hit harder!

ripyourlipsoff

re7joice wrote: »

Im not talking about offensive stat, its natural GWF have better offensive stats. But how a GF can have 40% deflection?

He would have to race spec out of strength or Constitution for DEX, and get defensive Defelction enchants, and also select plate agility for another 5% and then maybe he could get 40%? I don't think he could unless he was ridiculously gimped in dps!

So your end result would be a GF with low Guard or HP, with no offense poor recovery no crit, low arp and 5000 defense and 35-40% deflection! It would be silly like a clown at the circus this GF I bet would only have maybe 7% higher DR then the GWF with full offensive stats!

str8slayer

I'm surprised they never changed how defense, deflect and crit scaled for the GF, increasing the scaling probably would've solved at least half the problems GF's have today... The other half, of course, would be in re-balancing attributes, powers and feats.

OTOH I'm surprised they didn't decrease (if only by a small margin) the scaling for the same stats on GWF.

ripyourlipsoff

str8slayer wrote: »

I'm surprised they never changed how defense, deflect and crit scaled for the GF, increasing the scaling probably would've solved at least half the problems GF's have today... The other half, of course, would be in re-balancing attributes, powers and feats.

OTOH I'm surprised they didn't decrease (if only by a small margin) the scaling for the same stats on GWF.

Agreed, the GF should have high Def / Defl and low dps, the GWf should have low Def / Defl and high dps but they do not they have it all and a bag of sugar puffs too!

beckylunatic

mateodiscus wrote: »

Why don't you check what disciple of war feat actually does for a GWF before you start spouting nonsense.

Just to clarify what is being said here, the Calc is outdated, and that feat now gives MOAR POWER.

ripyourlipsoff

beckylunatic wrote: »

Just to clarify what is being said here, the Calc is outdated, and that feat now gives MOAR POWER.

Oh well then I may be mistaken then! Where do GWF get ARP for free then?

ripyourlipsoff

mateodiscus wrote: »

Like everybody that qq's you are taking what I said out of context. For a GWF to have the defensive stats the OP listed he would have to be heavily specced for it, and he would hit for <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> if he was specced that way.

No he would not! GWF in fully specced offensive juggernaught have maybe what 38%- 40% DR? Compared to a GF with 45%-50%

beckylunatic

ripyourlipsoff wrote: »

Oh well then I may be mistaken then! Where do GWF get ARP for free then?

Constitution stat, like putting points in Dex for GFs, as someone stated above.

ripyourlipsoff

beckylunatic wrote: »

Constitution stat, like putting points in Dex for GFs, as someone stated above.

Ahh so they took the feat away, but you still get free Armor pen then. Same same! Wish us GFs got some free stuff lmao

beckylunatic

But GFs get armor pen (=resistance ignored) if you put points into Dexterity, which is the point I think people have been trying to make to you.

Incidentally, if you actually want a max-DPS GWF then you put all your assignable points in Str and Dex and just take your initial Con roll and the points from levels 30 and 60 and call it good.

ripyourlipsoff

beckylunatic wrote: »

But GFs get armor pen (=resistance ignored) if you put points into Dexterity, which is the point I think people have been trying to make to you.

Incidentally, if you actually want a max-DPS GWF then you put all your assignable points in Str and Dex and just take your initial Con roll and the points from levels 30 and 60 and call it good.

Yea, to put points in DEX really gimps us as Strength is all we really got as a primary stat and CON I may try it again but I don't think I / we could put enough points in DEX to make a difference.

ripyourlipsoff

cookiecrisp15 wrote: »

the amount of nosense u write in every thread is just ridiculous

It wasn't nonsense at all! It was a fact and was changed yet they still get free arp!

cookiecrisp15

ripyourlipsoff wrote: »

It wasn't nonsense at all! It was a fact and was changed yet they still get free arp!

why you just dont go and l2p instead of spaming forum with QQ all day long?
you think it ill make things better or what?

ripyourlipsoff

cookiecrisp15 wrote: »

why you just dont go and l2p instead of spaming forum with QQ all day long?
you think it ill make things better or what?

I am not the only GF / CW player that is complaining! I think your attempts to troll me are getting old...

cookiecrisp15

ripyourlipsoff wrote: »

I am not the only GF / CW player that is complaining! I think your attempts to troll me are getting old...

talking with pugs is so pointless nowdays.

otong39

cookiecrisp15 wrote: »

why you just dont go and l2p instead of spaming forum with QQ all day long?
you think it ill make things better or what?

Roll a GF before you talk about l2p stuff (If you have rolled a GF im sorry). Doesnt matter how much you l2p, with the same gear level, a PvP spec'd GWF would stomp a PvP spec'd GF. Any day

Note: Except the GWF is using GPF and keep attacking while we're blocking with SoS activated, we might have a chance to win.

lvl99looter

I've been said ALL of this in my long a** Guardian Fighter Review. I also explain how the skill level required to be DECENT GF, far exceeds the skills required for other classes.

I want you guys to imagine something. Imagine ALL the GF's in the game who struggle to be successful, constantly training, practicing, perfecting they're combat skills, respec'ing to maximize their performance. These GF's have come so far, to the point their able to be a threat in PvP because they have skill which they work REALLY hard for. Pretend these GF's are being held back by chains, and these chains represent the imbalance of PvP, and all the flaws GF's have to deal with, and overcome. Constantly fighter classes more powerful than them, but grow and learn from each encounter with these classes.

My question is simple. "What do you think would happen if those chains were removed?" If GF's can already cause a little bit of trouble, WITH the chains. What do you think would happen in PvP if player's skills weren't limited by the chains? Who do you think would dominate?

maxiumdan

Ant, remember back with tenebrous enchants proc'ing all the time. People where 1-2 shotted and QQ, and they nerfed that.

emilemo

Dang it folks, why cant you refrain from turning a legitimate 'buff this' thread into a spiteful 'nerf that' thread ? Behave.

bucklittle

I don't get it, this guy is complaining GF 'only' have 5-7% more DR? That comes out to around 13% less damage taken.

ripyourlipsoff wrote: »

So your end result would be a GF with low Guard or HP, with no offense poor recovery no crit, low arp and 5000 defense and 35-40% deflection! It would be silly like a clown at the circus this GF I bet would only have maybe 7% higher DR then the GWF with full offensive stats!

Full offensive stats? Your looking at closer to 12% higher DR. GFs generally top out around 47% DR, although they can go over 50%. Offensive stat GWF will have around 35% DR. The GF ends up being a 18.5% less damage taken with more HPs.

kattefjaes

lvl99looter wrote: »

I've been said ALL of this in my long a** Guardian Fighter Review. I also explain how the skill level required to be DECENT GF, far exceeds the skills required for other classes.

I want you guys to imagine something. Imagine ALL the GF's in the game who struggle to be successful, constantly training, practicing, perfecting they're combat skills, respec'ing to maximize their performance. These GF's have come so far, to the point their able to be a threat in PvP because they have skill which they work REALLY hard for. Pretend these GF's are being held back by chains, and these chains represent the imbalance of PvP, and all the flaws GF's have to deal with, and overcome. Constantly fighter classes more powerful than them, but grow and learn from each encounter with these classes.

My question is simple. "What do you think would happen if those chains were removed?" If GF's can already cause a little bit of trouble, WITH the chains. What do you think would happen in PvP if player's skills weren't limited by the chains? Who do you think would dominate?

TRs, obviously. I'm really not sure what you're smoking any more.

1 of the Dinosaur Ketamine Masters

oicidraz

bucklittle wrote: »

I don't get it, this guy is complaining GF 'only' have 5-7% more DR? That comes out to around 13% less damage taken.

Full offensive stats? Your looking at closer to 12% higher DR. GFs generally top out around 47% DR, although they can go over 50%. Offensive stat GWF will have around 35% DR. The GF ends up being a 18.5% less damage taken with more HPs.

What?, GF doesn't have more HP than a GWF, also, you just see DR (but GWF have great Deflect Chance), and you don't consider that you scale Deflect Chance and DR way faster, to have that 50% DR we need to spent like 5K in Defence, and to have something near to 30% Deflect Chance we need almost 3K in Deflect, so we need to spent like 8K GS in just Defence/Deflect to have such defence (I do, having some feats that give +5 AC and +5 Deflect Chance), while a GWF can get 45% DR and 30% Deflect Chance with just 4-5K GS spent on those stats, that's the problem, (and the fun part is that even you say that we take 18.5% less damage, our survival is lower than the GWF, or at most, equal to the GWF in PvP, in PvE you can't even compare to us due to Life Steal).

brobora

The def/defl thing happened as full dps GWF has 21-25-28k HP.

emilemo

brobora wrote: »

The def/defl thing happened as full dps GWF has 21-25-28k HP.

This, also most of my GWFs deflect comes from a set bonus. Now, why the damage dealing class has better defensive set bonus than the tanking class..no idea ask the devs

brobora

The 'old' Sentinel PvP builders realised that they only need to control a node and not die to win. They aren't aiming for kills, only a lack of dying as more and more are running Gauntlgrym with prone-spec, high hp, high def/defl and are lucky if they get an assist with the low damage they do.

It's the reason GWF's found it important to run the PvP campaign out of the blocks, and why the leaderboard means nothing about unstoppable and more about desire to fall back into a winning role with less damage. Brawlers will still have insane burst damage, but they wont win a node alone or defend one alone. Sent Def/Defl will win matches long term, as people randomly turn up at the nodes they are on and apply dps - Co-op.

And unfortunately 2 GWF and 3 CW master teams.

thestaggy

mateodiscus wrote: »

Like everybody that qq's you are taking what I said out of context. For a GWF to have the defensive stats the OP listed he would have to be heavily specced for it, and he would hit for <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> if he was specced that way.

Erroneous.

My 13.8k GWF: 38% DR, 28% deflec, 9% Life Steal, Unstoppable, 5300 power, 3200 crit, 2000 arpen.

My 14.2k GF: 44% DR, 22% deflec, 1% Life Steal, 9200 power, 1600 crit, 2200 arpen.

My GWF out DPSes my GF and is far tankier. Stand in red, TAB, Wicked Strike, back to full health.

The GF has 59% more gear stats in defense and is only rewarded with 6% more DR. He has nearly double power but can't kill as fast.

I never believed the gulf in class until I actually rolled a GWF. The GWF is so awesome it is just stupid. Ezgodmode.

I love my GF, but we're gimped in many areas.

emilemo

thestaggy wrote: »

Erroneous.

My 13.8k GWF: 38% DR, 28% deflec, 9% Life Steal, Unstoppable, 5300 power, 3200 crit, 2000 arpen.

My 14.2k GF: 44% DR, 22% deflec, 1% Life Steal, 9200 power, 1600 crit, 2200 arpen.

My GWF out DPSes my GF and is far tankier. Stand in red, TAB, Wicked Strike, back to full health.

The GF has 59% more gear stats in defense and is only rewarded with 6% more DR. He has nearly double power but can't kill as fast.

I never believed the gulf in class until I actually rolled a GWF. The GWF is so awesome it is just stupid. Ezgodmode.

I love my GF, but we're gimped in many areas.

Well that is about right. Also I think normal lifesteal Stat doesnt work for a GF ( attacks are so slow ) and I do play both fighters. My GWF is like yours only about 3K higher and with Unstop + Lifesteal I have solo killed Frozen Heart last boss with only 2 more party members in PVP gear ( a GF keeping 60% of the mobs away, me on boss + other 30% mobs and a DC droppin' heals here and there while runnin' away from the rest 10% mobs ). In that same situation if it was a DC + 2 GFs they would have failed fast and hard. Now, my problem with the current Fighter situation is this, the majority of people see the GWF as OP and want it nerfed. That is the wrong way to look at it imo. Instead lets focus our energy on providing ideas about bringing up the GF. I've seen some pretty good ones already on the forum, hopefully the devs saw them too. Its so easy to hate on the GWF, almost as easy as it is to play one. But they had it rough once. Ive played my Destroyer since beta. I recall the times when nobody wanted to even hear about us in a dungeon party. And despite what so many people are eager to say the GWF Destro is not a PVP god - he not only kills fast , he also dies fast.

My own opinion - GF needs a better guard since it is his shiled ( not his Mark ) that is the true class defining mechanic. A guard that is as good as the GWF's unstoppable. A guard that doesnt melt away under numerous fast but weak attacks. Next thing a GF needs is the ability to do some good dps as a Conq. GFs who spec for damage should have it, GF who spec for tanks should be super hard to take down. Whats the point of 10K Power if your 8000 tooltipped encounter ends up hitting for 4000-5000 single target ( and thats not cause of lack of ArmPen too ) ? Last but not least GF should have either or both: high inherent HP , higher defense/deflect. Some classes have high crit chance without having insane Crit Rate, some have high defense without having insane def rate. GF scale crits poorly we should scale defensive stats the best.

EDIT- Forgot to add one thing. Im sure people will see what I wrote and think " he solo tanks/kills a T2 final boss and claims GFW not OP, nerf asap! " To you I say this - I've been playin' for a long time now, I've spent money and time developing that GWF and tweaking him to do insane damage and benefit the most from lifesteal. He wasnt nearly as good at 14 as he is at 16.3 (pvp gear) and just imagine what those at 17-18K can do. So when you call something OP please be so kind to make the distinction between a class and its gear.

otong39

mateodiscus wrote: »

Everybody saying that def stats scale batter with the GWF are just plain wrong. Stats put on to a GWF have diminishing returns the same as other classes. I will agree with you however its much easier for a GWF to get deflect than GF, but not damage resistance.

The problem is, in this game tankiness is not determined by Dmg resistance which mostly contributed by defense stat. The best defensive stats in this game are HP and regeneration, followed by deflect. Defense is the worst of all defensive stats, idk where to put lifesteal, because I didnt invest any point in lifesteal. As a GF you will get more than enough Defense, it's even hard to get deflect as a GF from the PvP armor set (only the Preserver version gives you a decent amount of deflect). As a GWF you'll get HP and deflect easily. Every class can have decent amount of regeneration nowadays with artifacts and boon. In short, GF gets the worst defensive stat, GWF gets one of the best defensive stats in HP and deflect, and of course IBS that hit like a truck.