Ant, remember back with tenebrous enchants proc'ing all the time. People where 1-2 shotted and QQ, and they nerfed that.
i'll go further than that remember module 1 when GF's where the thing and nobody wanted to touch a GWF with a 10 feet poll ??? DEV's gave some major love to the GWF to balance things out but went to strong now that being said im a believer that module 4 will bring great thing for GF's everywhere.....
Again people either keep taking what I say out of context or change the subject of the arguement.
A gwf cannot stack hitpoints any easier than a GF. Deflect is the only thing I will say he has an easier time of and that is really only due to the bravery class feature, which if used gives up a major dps slot in the form of weapon master or destroyer. This whole time I have been arguing the points of deflect and defense on a GWF and GF. When did regen hitpoints and lifesteal, or your overal defensive score get into this argument? An to answer a question I think you are trhing to ask, regen isn't really that great in PVE. Regen won't save you in PVE, but lifesteal can. I am not that great of a pvper, but I would make the assumption its the opposite for PVP.
I didnt change the subject, you were talking about how GF can easily get more Dmg Resist than GWF, but the problem is tankiness is not determined by Dmg Resistance. Thats my first line of my reply to your post.
I was talking from PvP point of view, sorry I didnt mention it, because I assumed OP talked about PvP. I only care about PvP nowadays, because it's the only place where my GF can be a bit useful atm. If you do lot of PvP you'll likely agree with with my post, regeneration is a must have stat in PvP, where everyone is stacking HP instead of defense and PvP spec'd GWFs will easily reach over 35k HP without sacrifcing its offensive stat. And just want to mention that as a GF having some regen and large HP is not useless in PvE, Ive done many T2 runs without DC, and sometimes only with 1 CW, I still took the most dmg, and guess what I only used like 2-5 HP potions, even Ive done few FH (this is a very easy T2) runs without DC and didnt even use a single potion.
Plus lifesteal softcaps pretty quickly, and GFs don't do that much damage. Regen doesn't care about all that.
It's not a "lifesteal OR regen" situation (aside from one or two boon choices), you can have both. And as a GF, you should.
As for GFs vs GWFs, GWFs get an AWFUL lot of tankiness from unstoppable. It's basically like popping iron warrior and villains menace, while standing in a yellow astral shield...all in one go, and it's not too hard to maintain it almost constantly. Two encounters and a daily, in one easy to use class feature.
You can have pretty much tissue paper for armour: as long as you can survive one hit, you then pop unstoppable, murder all the things, rinse, repeat.
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zhaofuoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 129Bounty Hunter
edited May 2014
I think the main problem here is itemization and stacking of stats.
a GWF
Con - HP+Armor penetration
Str - Damage
Dex - Deflect
A GF
Con - HP
Str - Damage+ guard increase
Dex - Armor pen
So who has the better stats - GWF has the best distribution HP that has no diminishing return with armor pen, basically you can just focus on CON and STR
now onto the items.
a GWF has a 2 set bonus that increase their HP or the offhand/mainhand that increase crit(i think) <-- i'm talking about the 2 pieces pvp set for the HP
a GF has a 2 set bonus that increase Def and an offhand/mainhand that also increase def (diminishing return)
Basically a GWF has more freedom in terms of bonus stats and they are not heavily punish by diminishing return. did i also mention how the class arficat bonus are.
GWF articat - HP/Power/Armor pen <-- 2 stats that doesn't have any cap nor diminishing return
GF- Def/AOE resist/? <-- not sure what the last one is
Given that a GF can also wear one if he has a GWF alt but the stats the items of each fighter class is something to thing about.
I'm just sad that GFs, which are supposed to be the tank classes, have never been the tankiest class in the game since the beta. I just wonder what developers plan is about our future. They keep adding armour with higher defense but obviously that's not working, someone should remind them that we've already reached hard cap.
but the problem is tankiness is not determined by Dmg Resistance.
Dmg Resistance, for a GF and GWF will always provide more effective hitpoints than deflect in PVP. So your previous statment isn't true. GF nor GWF has any benefit similar to Hunter's 4-set +heal on deflect. Point for point, Damage Resistance will always provide more "tankiness" than Deflect Chance.
Both deflect and damage resistance become more effective the more of it you have. With the current gear in the game, it's safe to say that damage resistance will ALWAYS provide more tankiness point for point than deflect chance, even against an opponent with stacked ignore resistance.
And it happens to be the case that if deflect chance is at 100%, then yes, deflect chance will finally provide more tankiness. But a GF or a GWF will never have anywhere close to 100% deflect chance.
comparing 99% deflect chance to 100% deflect chance with 0% damage resistance, show % damage taken
50/50.5 = .9901 = less than 1% damage reduction
I compare deflect using 0% damage resistance only to make the numbers easier to work with. For example, at 100% deflect chance and 0% damage resistance, you will take 50% damage. However, your actual damage resistance could be anything and this would still be true for GF and GWF with actual gear in game in PVP.
The actual cutoff is between 100% - 101%, but because having over 100% deflect would provide not actual benefit in game, I calculated for 99% - 100% which would be the next closest comparison.
They keep adding armour with higher defense but obviously that's not working, someone should remind them that we've already reached hard cap.
There is no hard cap for defense. X% increase in defense will provide a flat ~(X/7)% increase in damage resistance, irregardless of what defense stat is already at.
You can test this by taking off/on your armor until your defense stat has change by X%, then looking at your Damage Resistance.
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
There is no hard cap for defense. X% increase in defense will provide a flat ~(X/7)% increase in damage resistance, irregardless of what defense stat is already at.
• If someone has 99% deflect chance, you might as well say they have a 50% damage resistance since deflect, deflects have of the incoming damage.
• Wrong. At 3500 def + the GF's AC feat' we can achieve 50% DR. With that said I've stacked defense up too 6k before, that's a 2.5k+ increase and ONLY achieved a 53% DR. You don't think something is wrong there?
The equation is consistance irregardless of current Defense stat value. For starters, if the ONLY thing that changed was going from 3500 defense to 6000 defense, then your damage resistance would increase by an amount close to 6%, not 3%. Meaning feats or +AC and other buffs were different or you're lying or misunderstand what you were reading.
I just did some test in my GF a couple of days ago, these were the results:
The rate of growth of DR is (in my case) 11,545/x, where x is the amount of defense, that is, if my defense is 5000, then my DR increases 0.002309 per defense, or in another way, the rate of growth in that point is 2,309 per 1,000 of defense, but note that it would be less than that (I mean, I would get less than 2,309 DR if I put 1000 DEF more), because the rate of growth decrease all the time.
NOTE:
- AC from feats and equip are included, so if you wanna see the DR that is a directly result from Defence you should subtract 12.5.
- I don't know if the DR shown is affected by Armor Specialization feat.
Both deflect and damage resistance become more effective the more of it you have. With the current gear in the game, it's safe to say that damage resistance will ALWAYS provide more tankiness point for point than deflect chance, even against an opponent with stacked ignore resistance.
comparing 99% deflect chance to 100% deflect chance with 0% damage resistance, show % damage taken
50/50.5 = .9901 = less than 1% damage reduction.
That's true, but considering that Def is always easier to get (as their Dimishing Returrns) if you have 750 points to spent I'm sure that using them in Deflect will be better the 95% of the time, for example (checked by some calculations I did), 4750 Def / 3750 Deflect > 5500 Def / 3000 Deflect.
2500/6000 = .42 = 42% defense increase.
42%/7 = 6% = 6% damage resistance increase
Most people think GFs need buffs but it's best not to put out nonsense and inaccurate information.
It's 6.22%, but do you think it's okay to get 6.22% DR with 3500 points?, and then the thing get worse, so the Tankiest GF won't be far from some average GF with 4.5K in Def and 2.5K Deflect (in contrast, the an extremely High Geared GWF have A LOT more DPS than an average GWF), how I see this is that the great diference would be made by regen and in 1v1 or 2v1 situation, GF cant 3v1 in any case but I've seen some GWF going 3v1 and end killing 2 ppl, GF should be able to Tank more by making it not so hard caped, so you could choose if you go to a very good Tankiness / Low DPS or a good DPS / Decent Tankiness. This game demands more than a 6% DR to be a good Tank.
Dmg Resistance, for a GF and GWF will always provide more effective hitpoints than deflect in PVP. So your previous statment isn't true. GF nor GWF has any benefit similar to Hunter's 4-set +heal on deflect. Point for point, Damage Resistance will always provide more "tankiness" than Deflect Chance.
Hmm, I think you misunderstood my post. I didnt say Deflect is better than Dmg Resistance. I said tankiness is not determined by how much Dmg Resistance you have, because Dmg Resistance percentage contributed mostly by defense. PvP spec'd GWF has lower Dmg Resist than a PvP spec'd GF, but they have always been tankier than GF, because they have more HP and deflect, maybe less regen than a GF, but with their large HP it wont matter. HP/Regen > Deflect > Defense.
You're comparing the abilities of the class though. Why don't you compare to a rogue that you can't ever catch and call him more tanki because he can survive longer. Or a hunter more tanki because he can dodge all your encounters and take 0% of the damage? Why don't you compare to a DC than can soak up more hits after using +DR and heals. Why not compare it to a TR that is using ITC or bloodbath or a HR that is using Fox Shift/Cunning.
It's great you understand what I was saying. I understand it realistically doesn't mean much because why would a GF stack more defense in pvp? In defense slots the only thing a GF should be stacking is +HP. How many times have I seen GFs using defense slot rings compared to GWFs? Yet you see many always complaining that GWFs have more +HPs.
Without using any abilities out of all the classes, they take the least damage in the game.
I'm not saying that GFs are strong in PVP, because I feel they are on the weaker end like many other players. But the problems with GFs in PVP and also PVE isn't their lack of tankiness or lack of DR especially considering they have the highest in the game.
I mean hey, if it was up to me their tab would be replaced with something else.
You're comparing the abilities of the class though. Why don't you compare to a rogue that you can't ever catch and call him more tanki because he can survive longer. Or a hunter more tanki because he can dodge all your encounters and take 0% of the damage? Why don't you compare to a DC than can soak up more hits after using +DR and heals. Why not compare it to a TR that is using ITC or bloodbath or a HR that is using Fox Shift/Cunning.
Wha? I didnt compare any abilities of each class, where did I mention that? Ill make it simple, the point of my post is focusing on the stats allocation on the Armor Set of GWF and GF. It is so easy to reach over 36k HP(usually they will go 39k-41k) as GWF without sacrificing your offensive stats. As a GF if you want to stack that much HP you'll have to sacrifice some of your offensive stats.
It is so easy to reach over 36k HP(usually they will go 39k-41k) as GWF without sacrificing your offensive stats. As a GF if you want to stack that much HP you'll have to sacrifice some of your offensive stats.
Really? Show me a single GWF that hasn't sacrificed offense with 41k HPs.
Really this is getting stupid. Look at all the GWFs topping the leaderboards, every single one of them give up offense for +hps, every single one. Why don't you see GFs do this? Because all the smart GF players switched to GWF.
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zhaofuoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 129Bounty Hunter
edited June 2014
Max Con - as it adds HP and Armor Pen
wearing 2 (2 piece set of HP bonus set) i forgot the name of those GWF set.
Vanguard Artifact
GWF Artifact
Should i continue? like what the previous poster said they can easily reach 39k without sacrificing too much
Heck i could even tell you that the WPN damage alone is miles away from us GF.
If your going to argue on it's supposed to happen because GWF is a striker class and a GF is a support class, Why the **** is the dc class have more WPN damage than we are (i assume they are also a support class)
Really? Show me a single GWF that hasn't sacrificed offense with 41k HPs.
Really this is getting stupid. Look at all the GWFs topping the leaderboards, every single one of them give up offense for +hps, every single one. Why don't you see GFs do this? Because all the smart GF players switched to GWF.
Before I give you the proof which is very easy, I just want to ask, do you like to PvP? Because you looked surprise when I mentioned that GWF with 39k-ish (maybe a r'10s) HP can hit like a truck, which is very common.
If what you meant by sacrificing offensive stats is by not having the same amount of power as a PvE GWF, then we're not on the same page. Because in PvP you don't have to have insane amount of power to hit hard.
ITT GF players who don't even know what bonuses their attributes give.
Feel free to stop posting anytime.
I / We know are feats and I bet if looked at you will see I've purchased more retraining tokens then anyone in the last 2 months! I have respecced multiple different ways and the mechanics of the GF cannot, I repeat CANNOT compete in tankiness in comparison to the GWF.
Just trying to get our Deflection in the 20+% is a miracle in and of itself! We are either very low dps with minor extra DR, or Extra DPS with minor less DR! Neither of which helps our survivability!
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
I've purchased more retraining tokens then anyone in the last 2 months! I have respecced multiple different ways
Same here... I've wasted SOOOOOO much AD/IRL money on training tokens ALONE! I keep trying to find needle in the hay stack, but I'm starting to think there isn't one lol.
Before I give you the proof which is very easy, I just want to ask, do you like to PvP? Because you looked surprise when I mentioned that GWF with 39k-ish (maybe a r'10s) HP can hit like a truck, which is very common.
If what you meant by sacrificing offensive stats is by not having the same amount of power as a PvE GWF, then we're not on the same page. Because in PvP you don't have to have insane amount of power to hit hard.
You specifically said a GWF didn't have to sacrifice offense in PVP and often go up to 41k HPs, I called you out and told you that you're wrong. And I still stand by it. You aren't going to find any GWFs with 41k hps, even with r10s, that haven't sacrificed some offense for defense, period.
Ah yes, then you said we aren't on the same page. I was just going by what you wrote not by what you were secretly thinking.
It's like I've mentioned on forums before, GFs are IMO weakest class in PVP currently. But if someone is gunna QQ about GFs being weak, don't spout nonsense and bull.
GFs are not the weakest in PvP, by a fairly wide margin. PvP at the moment is all about chaining prones, and GFs have a lot of those. Plus they're pretty tanky. Can't hit anything like as hard as a GWF (who also have a lot of prones and are pretty tanky), but compared to tissuepaper CWs and hilarious DCs suffering under an effective 70-85% self healing reduction, GFs in PvP are not doing too badly.
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Again dumb *** out of context. Technically speaking if the GWF wants the actual DR of a tanky GF he will do <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> for damage. I never said he needed to as 40% DR is plenty. Quit acting like Fox news and twisting my words.
Diminishing returns and not the OP GWF is what is hurting the GF if you are only looking at stats. He may have alot more defense than the GWF but only 6% more DR. Diminishing returns really starts to kick you in the teeth above 3k defense. Its why I never go past 2500 def on any of my characters. The return to what I get after that just isn't worth it. Plus a 40% DR is really all you need. You take that DR plus the DR you get from unstoppable plus the DR you get from a cleric and you have hit the globla DR cap of 80%. You just don't need anymore than 40% base in my opinion as a GWF.
Which means you are free to put more points into offense related stats.
You gwfs are shameless. You defend a class that hit like a truck, can sustain heavy damage, is immune to cc, can heal herself and more, against a class like gf?!?! The fact that nobody wants or needs a GF in his party don't ring any bell?
You specifically said a GWF didn't have to sacrifice offense in PVP and often go up to 41k HPs, I called you out and told you that you're wrong. And I still stand by it. You aren't going to find any GWFs with 41k hps, even with r10s, that haven't sacrificed some offense for defense, period.
Ah yes, then you said we aren't on the same page. I was just going by what you wrote not by what you were secretly thinking.
It's like I've mentioned on forums before, GFs are IMO weakest class in PVP currently. But if someone is gunna QQ about GFs being weak, don't spout nonsense and bull.
Where did I say that GF is weak? I said GWF can hit hard and being tanky at the same time. And GF can only choose 1, being tanky or hit hard, even tho would still not hit as hard as a tanky GWF and would still not as tanky as a GWF with 12k IBS.
This is from the Gateway so you know he'll have more HP ingame. Maybe around 39k.
Unfortunately, he's using 2 Ring of Greater Repulsion instead of 2 Greater Ring of Health. Using the latter would make him reach 40k-ish, and I can tell from his offensive stats, he hits hard.
Where did I say that GF is weak? I said GWF can hit hard and being tanky at the same time. And GF can only choose 1, being tanky or hit hard, even tho would still not hit as hard as a tanky GWF and would still not as tanky as a GWF with 12k IBS.
This is from the Gateway so you know he'll have more HP ingame. Maybe around 39k.
Unfortunately, he's using 2 Ring of Greater Repulsion instead of 2 Greater Ring of Health. Using the latter would make him reach 40k-ish, and I can tell from his offensive stats, he hits hard.
Going off of my Gateway stats, that guy has;
- 1000 less power than I have and I only achieve that stat thanks to the Conqueror cap stone.
- 900 less defense than my GF, however, at 3500 defense you start moving into diminishing returns, so the difference will be negligible. At the most I will have 3.5% more DR.
- 500 more deflection PLUS a class passive that will give him a sweet 8% deflect chance, so he quite easily has 10%+ more deflect than I have. A far bigger difference than my advantage in defense.
- twice the crit I have.
- 700 more arpen than I have.
TheN he has Unstoppable to further mitigate damage as well as Sprint to flee. He can also pop Unstoppable and use up sprint to get away from a CC-death situation. On the other hand a GF without his shield (which is no match for Unstoppable) is easily controlled and put to death. His offensive stats are also tied to weapons and subsequently powers that hit much harder.
Really, a GWF's offensive sacrifices while achieving survivability are negligible. This guy will also get through a dungeon run faster than my PVP-specced GF.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
- 1000 less power than I have and I only achieve that stat thanks to the Conqueror cap stone.
- 900 less defense than my GF, however, at 3500 defense you start moving into diminishing returns, so the difference will be negligible. At the most I will have 3.5% more DR.
- 500 more deflection PLUS a class passive that will give him a sweet 8% deflect chance, so he quite easily has 10%+ more deflect than I have. A far bigger difference than my advantage in defense.
- twice the crit I have.
- 700 more arpen than I have.
TheN he has Unstoppable to further mitigate damage as well as Sprint to flee. He can also pop Unstoppable and use up sprint to get away from a CC-death situation. On the other hand a GF without his shield (which is no match for Unstoppable) is easily controlled and put to death. His offensive stats are also tied to weapons and subsequently powers that hit much harder.
Really, a GWF's offensive sacrifices while achieving survivability are negligible. This guy will also get through a dungeon run faster than my PVP-specced GF.
You know there was a wide spread delusion that taking crit away from Deep Gash makes Sentinels negligible as far as damage is concerned. People even talked about selling their Vorpal ( and some did change ). The reality today is that some heavily geared Senties equipped with either P.Vorpal or a G.Plaguefire have massive crit chance ( Weapon Master ), massive deflect ( weapon master/bravery/ + another feat ), super run speed ( Bravery/sprint), massive HP, defence capped, more than enought ArmPen and to top it off 4000-5000 power which might seem low but if you count in the frequent Vorpal enhanced crits and the armpen leads to great sustained damage and makes them almost as fearsome in PVP as they used to be.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
You know there was a wide spread delusion that taking crit away from Deep Gash makes Sentinels negligible as far as damage is concerned. People even talked about selling their Vorpal ( and some did change ). The reality today is that some heavily geared Senties equipped with either P.Vorpal or a G.Plaguefire have massive crit chance ( Weapon Master ), massive deflect ( weapon master/bravery/ + another feat ), super run speed ( Bravery/sprint), massive HP, defence capped, more than enought ArmPen and to top it off 4000-5000 power which might seem low but if you count in the frequent Vorpal enhanced crits and the armpen leads to great sustained damage and makes them almost as fearsome in PVP as they used to be.
I didn't even factor in Sentinels, but you are correct, a full-blown post-Mod 4 PVP Sentinel will still out DPS a GF while being tankier.
The 'nerfed' SotS and Deep Gash are superior to anything the Conqueror tree offers a GF.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
Just wanted to add something. The STATs you see here are what a full DPS Destroyer (in pvp gear ) looks like. As you can tell he does lose defensive capability. Ingame Power goes to ~8500, Crit is at 4000, ArmPen at 2000. If it wasnt for Unstoppable and LifeSteal Id die alot in IWD.. So, true glass cannons are indeed made of glass..
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Comments
i'll go further than that remember module 1 when GF's where the thing and nobody wanted to touch a GWF with a 10 feet poll ??? DEV's gave some major love to the GWF to balance things out but went to strong
I was talking from PvP point of view, sorry I didnt mention it, because I assumed OP talked about PvP. I only care about PvP nowadays, because it's the only place where my GF can be a bit useful atm. If you do lot of PvP you'll likely agree with with my post, regeneration is a must have stat in PvP, where everyone is stacking HP instead of defense and PvP spec'd GWFs will easily reach over 35k HP without sacrifcing its offensive stat. And just want to mention that as a GF having some regen and large HP is not useless in PvE, Ive done many T2 runs without DC, and sometimes only with 1 CW, I still took the most dmg, and guess what I only used like 2-5 HP potions, even Ive done few FH (this is a very easy T2) runs without DC and didnt even use a single potion.
It's not a "lifesteal OR regen" situation (aside from one or two boon choices), you can have both. And as a GF, you should.
As for GFs vs GWFs, GWFs get an AWFUL lot of tankiness from unstoppable. It's basically like popping iron warrior and villains menace, while standing in a yellow astral shield...all in one go, and it's not too hard to maintain it almost constantly. Two encounters and a daily, in one easy to use class feature.
You can have pretty much tissue paper for armour: as long as you can survive one hit, you then pop unstoppable, murder all the things, rinse, repeat.
a GWF
Con - HP+Armor penetration
Str - Damage
Dex - Deflect
A GF
Con - HP
Str - Damage+ guard increase
Dex - Armor pen
So who has the better stats - GWF has the best distribution HP that has no diminishing return with armor pen, basically you can just focus on CON and STR
now onto the items.
a GWF has a 2 set bonus that increase their HP or the offhand/mainhand that increase crit(i think) <-- i'm talking about the 2 pieces pvp set for the HP
a GF has a 2 set bonus that increase Def and an offhand/mainhand that also increase def (diminishing return)
Basically a GWF has more freedom in terms of bonus stats and they are not heavily punish by diminishing return. did i also mention how the class arficat bonus are.
GWF articat - HP/Power/Armor pen <-- 2 stats that doesn't have any cap nor diminishing return
GF- Def/AOE resist/? <-- not sure what the last one is
Given that a GF can also wear one if he has a GWF alt but the stats the items of each fighter class is something to thing about.
Dmg Resistance, for a GF and GWF will always provide more effective hitpoints than deflect in PVP. So your previous statment isn't true. GF nor GWF has any benefit similar to Hunter's 4-set +heal on deflect. Point for point, Damage Resistance will always provide more "tankiness" than Deflect Chance.
Both deflect and damage resistance become more effective the more of it you have. With the current gear in the game, it's safe to say that damage resistance will ALWAYS provide more tankiness point for point than deflect chance, even against an opponent with stacked ignore resistance.
And it happens to be the case that if deflect chance is at 100%, then yes, deflect chance will finally provide more tankiness. But a GF or a GWF will never have anywhere close to 100% deflect chance.
comparing 0% damage resistance to 1% damage resistance
99/100 = .99 = 1% damage reduction
comparing 99% deflect chance to 100% deflect chance with 0% damage resistance, show % damage taken
50/50.5 = .9901 = less than 1% damage reduction
I compare deflect using 0% damage resistance only to make the numbers easier to work with. For example, at 100% deflect chance and 0% damage resistance, you will take 50% damage. However, your actual damage resistance could be anything and this would still be true for GF and GWF with actual gear in game in PVP.
The actual cutoff is between 100% - 101%, but because having over 100% deflect would provide not actual benefit in game, I calculated for 99% - 100% which would be the next closest comparison.
There is no hard cap for defense. X% increase in defense will provide a flat ~(X/7)% increase in damage resistance, irregardless of what defense stat is already at.
You can test this by taking off/on your armor until your defense stat has change by X%, then looking at your Damage Resistance.
• If someone has 99% deflect chance, you might as well say they have a 50% damage resistance since deflect, deflects have of the incoming damage.
• Wrong. At 3500 def + the GF's AC feat' we can achieve 50% DR. With that said I've stacked defense up too 6k before, that's a 2.5k+ increase and ONLY achieved a 53% DR. You don't think something is wrong there?
2500/6000 = .42 = 42% defense increase.
42%/7 = 6% = 6% damage resistance increase
Most people think GFs need buffs but it's best not to put out nonsense and inaccurate information.
The rate of growth of DR is (in my case) 11,545/x, where x is the amount of defense, that is, if my defense is 5000, then my DR increases 0.002309 per defense, or in another way, the rate of growth in that point is 2,309 per 1,000 of defense, but note that it would be less than that (I mean, I would get less than 2,309 DR if I put 1000 DEF more), because the rate of growth decrease all the time.
NOTE:
- AC from feats and equip are included, so if you wanna see the DR that is a directly result from Defence you should subtract 12.5.
- I don't know if the DR shown is affected by Armor Specialization feat.
Now:
That's true, but considering that Def is always easier to get (as their Dimishing Returrns) if you have 750 points to spent I'm sure that using them in Deflect will be better the 95% of the time, for example (checked by some calculations I did), 4750 Def / 3750 Deflect > 5500 Def / 3000 Deflect.
It's 6.22%, but do you think it's okay to get 6.22% DR with 3500 points?, and then the thing get worse, so the Tankiest GF won't be far from some average GF with 4.5K in Def and 2.5K Deflect (in contrast, the an extremely High Geared GWF have A LOT more DPS than an average GWF), how I see this is that the great diference would be made by regen and in 1v1 or 2v1 situation, GF cant 3v1 in any case but I've seen some GWF going 3v1 and end killing 2 ppl, GF should be able to Tank more by making it not so hard caped, so you could choose if you go to a very good Tankiness / Low DPS or a good DPS / Decent Tankiness. This game demands more than a 6% DR to be a good Tank.
It's great you understand what I was saying. I understand it realistically doesn't mean much because why would a GF stack more defense in pvp? In defense slots the only thing a GF should be stacking is +HP. How many times have I seen GFs using defense slot rings compared to GWFs? Yet you see many always complaining that GWFs have more +HPs.
Without using any abilities out of all the classes, they take the least damage in the game.
I'm not saying that GFs are strong in PVP, because I feel they are on the weaker end like many other players. But the problems with GFs in PVP and also PVE isn't their lack of tankiness or lack of DR especially considering they have the highest in the game.
I mean hey, if it was up to me their tab would be replaced with something else.
Screenshot plz?
There must be something else than the basic gwf stats. Potion, buff, companion passive, whatever.
Really? Show me a single GWF that hasn't sacrificed offense with 41k HPs.
Really this is getting stupid. Look at all the GWFs topping the leaderboards, every single one of them give up offense for +hps, every single one. Why don't you see GFs do this? Because all the smart GF players switched to GWF.
wearing 2 (2 piece set of HP bonus set) i forgot the name of those GWF set.
Vanguard Artifact
GWF Artifact
Should i continue? like what the previous poster said they can easily reach 39k without sacrificing too much
Heck i could even tell you that the WPN damage alone is miles away from us GF.
If your going to argue on it's supposed to happen because GWF is a striker class and a GF is a support class, Why the **** is the dc class have more WPN damage than we are (i assume they are also a support class)
Bottom line - GWF far outshine a GF period.
If what you meant by sacrificing offensive stats is by not having the same amount of power as a PvE GWF, then we're not on the same page. Because in PvP you don't have to have insane amount of power to hit hard.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Feel free to stop posting anytime.
Also, which GF stat gives tons of tankiness AND tons of arpen?
I'd love to know.
I / We know are feats and I bet if looked at you will see I've purchased more retraining tokens then anyone in the last 2 months! I have respecced multiple different ways and the mechanics of the GF cannot, I repeat CANNOT compete in tankiness in comparison to the GWF.
Just trying to get our Deflection in the 20+% is a miracle in and of itself! We are either very low dps with minor extra DR, or Extra DPS with minor less DR! Neither of which helps our survivability!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Same here... I've wasted SOOOOOO much AD/IRL money on training tokens ALONE! I keep trying to find needle in the hay stack, but I'm starting to think there isn't one lol.
You specifically said a GWF didn't have to sacrifice offense in PVP and often go up to 41k HPs, I called you out and told you that you're wrong. And I still stand by it. You aren't going to find any GWFs with 41k hps, even with r10s, that haven't sacrificed some offense for defense, period.
Ah yes, then you said we aren't on the same page. I was just going by what you wrote not by what you were secretly thinking.
It's like I've mentioned on forums before, GFs are IMO weakest class in PVP currently. But if someone is gunna QQ about GFs being weak, don't spout nonsense and bull.
You gwfs are shameless. You defend a class that hit like a truck, can sustain heavy damage, is immune to cc, can heal herself and more, against a class like gf?!?! The fact that nobody wants or needs a GF in his party don't ring any bell?
This is from the Gateway so you know he'll have more HP ingame. Maybe around 39k.
Unfortunately, he's using 2 Ring of Greater Repulsion instead of 2 Greater Ring of Health. Using the latter would make him reach 40k-ish, and I can tell from his offensive stats, he hits hard.
Going off of my Gateway stats, that guy has;
- 1000 less power than I have and I only achieve that stat thanks to the Conqueror cap stone.
- 900 less defense than my GF, however, at 3500 defense you start moving into diminishing returns, so the difference will be negligible. At the most I will have 3.5% more DR.
- 500 more deflection PLUS a class passive that will give him a sweet 8% deflect chance, so he quite easily has 10%+ more deflect than I have. A far bigger difference than my advantage in defense.
- twice the crit I have.
- 700 more arpen than I have.
TheN he has Unstoppable to further mitigate damage as well as Sprint to flee. He can also pop Unstoppable and use up sprint to get away from a CC-death situation. On the other hand a GF without his shield (which is no match for Unstoppable) is easily controlled and put to death. His offensive stats are also tied to weapons and subsequently powers that hit much harder.
Really, a GWF's offensive sacrifices while achieving survivability are negligible. This guy will also get through a dungeon run faster than my PVP-specced GF.
You know there was a wide spread delusion that taking crit away from Deep Gash makes Sentinels negligible as far as damage is concerned. People even talked about selling their Vorpal ( and some did change ). The reality today is that some heavily geared Senties equipped with either P.Vorpal or a G.Plaguefire have massive crit chance ( Weapon Master ), massive deflect ( weapon master/bravery/ + another feat ), super run speed ( Bravery/sprint), massive HP, defence capped, more than enought ArmPen and to top it off 4000-5000 power which might seem low but if you count in the frequent Vorpal enhanced crits and the armpen leads to great sustained damage and makes them almost as fearsome in PVP as they used to be.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
I didn't even factor in Sentinels, but you are correct, a full-blown post-Mod 4 PVP Sentinel will still out DPS a GF while being tankier.
The 'nerfed' SotS and Deep Gash are superior to anything the Conqueror tree offers a GF.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.